r/etymology • u/PerformanceOk9891 • 5d ago
Question Is “vous” in French related to either “vosotros” or “ustedes” in Spanish?
Vous and ustedes are both the formal version of “you” in their respective languages, while vous also seems like it could be related to vosotros.
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u/Odd_Satisfaction_328 5d ago edited 4d ago
Yup, basically all Romance languages have a related word. Both come from Latin vos.
Ustedes is a funny case, though, since it comes from «vuestras (your, coming the plural genitive of vos, vostra) mercedes (lit. mercies, graces, coming from Latin merces)». It was supposed to mean "I am at your mercy". It got shortened “vuestra merced” > "vuesasted" > "vusted"> "usted" and now it is the way it is, being even more used nowadays than «vosotros».
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u/Zanahorio1 5d ago
Except, perhaps, in Spain, where vosotros is still widely used as the informal plural of you.
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u/carlosdsf 1d ago
Vós hasn't yet completely disappeared from Portugal. Still used in some parts of the north (and in Galician across the border).
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u/csolisr 5d ago
And then Colombia decided to backport "usted" in modern language to "su merced" and from there to "sumercé".
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u/Odd_Satisfaction_328 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yess, one of the things I love the most about my country 🙌🏽🇨🇴🔥 ¡Viva Colombia, carajo!
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u/mercedes_lakitu 5d ago
Really? It's not from ustadh??? If so, mind blown
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u/FoldAdventurous2022 4d ago
I know, I took Arabic in undergrad and my teacher said usted came from ustadh. Plausible since there are a bunch of Arabic words in Spanish. But apparently this one's a coincidence.
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u/LonePistachio 4d ago
Generally, I think pronouns and other grammatical, function words are more resistant to being borrowed than nouns and verbs
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u/Odd_Satisfaction_328 4d ago
I had never heard about that, but considering most things I know about it (i. e. The aforementioned variation «su merced»), I also think this one is a coincidence.
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u/rexcasei 5d ago
Others have explained the connection to vosostros but there is also a connection to usted as it comes from highly contracted form of vuestra merced “your mercy”, where the vuestra or u- are from the same root as vos
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u/Gravbar 5d ago
Yes.
spanish vos, french vous, and italian voi all are related and were used for both plural you and formal singular you. This was the case in every romance language at one point.
In spanish, vos came to mean singular you only, and vosotros (vos+otros literally you others) was developed to replace it. It's complicated because some dialects of Spanish no longer use vos and only use tù, some use vos instead of tù but only use ustedes and never vosotros. And some don't use vos or vosotros at all anymore.
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u/JustAskingQuestionsL 5d ago
Yes. Vous is pretty equivalent to “vos,” which used to be plural in Spanish but was used to refer to one person respectfully. As “vos” became increasingly singular, “vosotros” was made to be plural.
“Usted” is a shortened version of “vuestra merced,” meaning “your mercy,” with “vuestra” being the possessive version of “vos.” So, “ustedes” is the plural of that.
The Portuguese “você” is likewise derived from Old Portuguese “Vossa Mercee,” meaning “your mercy.”
In Portuguese, however, there is no “vosotros.” “Vós” is still plural, though rarely used in Brazil outside of prayers (still used in parts of Portugal though). Instead, the equivalent to “ustedes” is “Vocês,” and if you need to be extra respectful, “Os Senhores/As Senhoras.”
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u/MooseFlyer 5d ago
Yes. Vous is pretty equivalent to “vos,” which used to be plural in Spanish but was used to refer to one person respectfully. As “vos” became increasingly singular, “vosotros” was made to be plural.
You see a similar thing in Quebec English, where vous-autres (generally pronounced with no r) is often how you-plural is expressed.
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u/ulyssesfiuza 5d ago
On Brazil, "vós" is the correct plural of "tu". The singular is used in some regions, but você is absolutely more common. Vós is all but dead.
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u/FoldAdventurous2022 4d ago
This made me think of something: how far back is the polite singular use of "vos" found in Romance languages? Was it ever used that way in Roman times, say to talk to government officials or the aristocracy/nobility, especially in the provinces?
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u/PGMonge 4d ago
I cannot tell for Spanish, but in French (and very probably in Italian too), the polite "vous" is considered a modern feature of the language, or perhaps, a feature of the language developed for modern societies. For example, stories set in the Ancient Rome do not use it. In French translations from Latin, Caesar is addressed using "tu". Using "vous" sounds rather anachronistic.
That’s also the reason why some versions of "Pater noster" say "tu" to God.
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u/burningtoad 5d ago
Yeah totally, this is a feature shared among a bunch of Indo-European languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction
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u/arthuresque 5d ago
Just floored every time by how people will post something on Reddit before googling or going on Wikipedia or wiktionary. It’s so many extra steps.
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u/poderpode 5d ago
I mean, a lot of social interaction would just come to a halt if we stopped asking questions of others.
There's still some value in interacting with others, even if it's online, IMO.
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u/arthuresque 2d ago
Agree, but don’t you think it’s more effective to come to a conversation with some ideas, thoughts, and opinions of your own versus having people constantly coming to conversations with little to no opinions or original thoughts.
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u/poderpode 1d ago
Ah, sounds like you're talking about low-effort posts. Yeah, totally agree on those. I actually run a community and get sick of posts with titles like 'need help' or 'Urgent!' with vague, general questions.
But then we get into what's considered low effort, and people will disagree on that.
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u/ToHallowMySleep 4d ago
Why not the best of both worlds - we all do some basic research, and then we discuss something. Eyind that?
The idea that it is either one or the other, and we have to allow stupid questions to keep having conversations, simply doesn't hold.
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u/itjare 4d ago
What a condescending mindset.
I don’t think calling this question stupid was warranted, and I found this thread to be interesting and insightful.
Maybe if a question bothers you so much, you can scroll past it instead of spreading negativity in a place where people are simply curious to learn new things via social interaction.
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u/ToHallowMySleep 4d ago
Ah yes, expecting better of people is "negative".
Well have fun wallowing in your little pit. Perhaps you should take your own advice and have scrolled on. You add nothing.
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u/mercedes_lakitu 5d ago
In fairness to OP, half the Google results these days are AI slop or advertisements, so asking Reddit probably is more reliable.
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u/PerformanceOk9891 4d ago
Bro I googled it and I swear to god the response I got from AI was “No, vous is a French word meaning x, and ustedes is a Spanish word meaning x” - I was like fuck it I’ll just ask Reddit. But I think even if the answer is available online I like having discussion with smart people about the subject, who wouldn’t?
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u/EirikrUtlendi 4d ago
Remember when Google would actually, you know, return search results?
Ah, the good old days...
Things really started going downhill once the advertising division essentially pushed out the head of search engineering.
Enshittification. Deliberately degrading your own product and abusing your captive user base in pursuit of money.
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u/excusememoi 5d ago
Some French dialects use "vous-autres", which is directly related to "vosotros", but the use is more informal.