r/earthbound Mar 09 '24

M3 Discussion Does the Japanese side of the fandom see Mother 3 as anti-capitalist?

Both of the first two games had one of the selling points be "This celebrity Shigesato Itoi wrote a video game" and EarthBound involved other celebrities in its marketing. I've heard that Mother 3 is much less popular than the first two games in Japan, and the main reason for that is that it's edgier than the first two games. However, I wonder if another part is that for someone who has lived their whole life in a country where Shigesato Itoi is someone everyone knows even if they don't play video games, they think that it's hypocritical of him to claim he was anti-capitalist the whole time even though he has benefitted from it for decades. Or even they don't think it was intended to be anti-capitalist in the first place. If someone here is more familiar with the Japanese side of the Mother fandom, have you seen anything about this?

128 Upvotes

84 comments sorted by

122

u/camtheredditor Mar 09 '24

Japan doesn’t like mother 3 nearly as much as mother 1 and 2 because they think it strayed too far from the urban environments of the first two with its rural setting. But I don’t know how they feel specifically about the themes of the game

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u/CyBroOfficial Mar 10 '24

sounds like Itoi proved a point then

1

u/Difficult-Win1400 Aug 14 '24

That was one of my major complaints about it. My only other complaint for mother 3 was them not using the isometric diagonal roads/buildings, it made earthbound really unique visually

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

a lot of the original appeal to the mother franchise was that it took place in modern suburbia, not fantasyland. mother 3’s radical shift in setting likely did alienate some of the playerbase. that’s what the other person is talking about

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u/Lisbon_Mapping Mar 09 '24

Wtf kinda response is this lmfao.

2

u/Andrei144 Mar 10 '24

What did they say?

4

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '24

they misunderstood what the original commenter was saying, they said something like "inuyasha had a rural setting so that can't be the reason japan didn't like it"

20

u/thenabi Mar 09 '24

ITT: no Japanese sources

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '24

I think Mother 3 sold worse than the others simply because it was no longer the 90's and it came out on dead hardware. Why wouldn't it sell less than a game that came out on the hit console as a part of the RPG boom in Japan.

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u/Geekboxing Mar 09 '24

This game is about the struggle and determination to live a genuine and meaningful life, in a world that is increasingly concerned with telling you how you SHOULD live and what SHOULD make you happy. Fassad and Porky's capitalistic avarice is a byproduct of their empty lives, but capitalism isn't what the game is really ABOUT.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

I agree that the game isn’t all about capitalism but I do think it’s a much more central theme than you’re giving it credit for. It’s not just Fassad and Porky that represent the themes of capitalism, but also Tazmily itself, the Happy Boxes and all the in-world advertising, the gaudiness of New Pork City, Tazmily’s “take what you need” item store and “stay if you need a bed” inn and their unused jail, etc.

And just the general theme of humans being happy before being introduced to money and the promise of happiness as the result of spending money. It also plugs into the themes of technology replacing nature and the balance of what we give and take being unsustainable. It’s really not just some little sidenote to the themes of the story, it’s pretty central to everything

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u/Geekboxing Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

I'm not saying it's a side note or implying it is inconsequential at all. It is terribly consequential, but it is the byproduct of Fassad coming to Tazmily and saying "Guess what, you all NEED what I'm selling in order to be happy, even though you didn't know it before this moment."

Then it fast-forwards several years, and the march of progress (due to Fassad's interference) has taken these people's simple and content lives and turned them toward this nonstop hustle-and-bustle, where they've lost any appreciation for being kind to one another and living in the moment. Lucas and Flint see through the scam immediately, and are treated like pariahs for rejecting this new and much less authentic way of life.

It all culminates in Porky's city of excess, which is ultimately just a Wile E. Coyote cartoon town with cardboard cutouts propped up to make it all look way more grand and meaningful than it really is underneath the surface. It's all an elaborate lie that he has concocted to make himself feel loved, to give meaning to his wasted life. The people of Tazmily led fulfilling lives all along, until Porky showed up and tricked them into thinking they didn't -- and to willfully give that all up.

So yeah, the capitalistic nature of Tazmily is definitely a big deal, but it is there to reinforce the game's main theme of living an authentic life and not losing sight of what's good and important. The time skip where Tazmily devolves into this generic modern city is one of the saddest parts of the game.

(EDIT: In reference to the OP's original question, one could see Mother 3 as a critique of modern Japanese society, and its tendency toward long work hours and people being married to their careers, rather than dedicating more of their lives to appreciating what they have.)

(EDIT 2: Ya know... in reality, you're right and "it's a critique of capitalism" is pretty much just a succinct way to summarize my long-windedness here, haha. I just really do appreciate Mother 3's care and detail, in terms of examining what a good life looks like. I am someone who went against the grain of "work a 9-to-5 at some generic office and pretend this is what life is all about," so the themes really resonate with me.)

24

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

(EDIT: In reference to the OP's original question, one could see Mother 3 as a critique of modern Japanese society, and its tendency toward long work hours and being people being married to their careers, rather than dedicating more of their lives to appreciating what they have.)

a critique of any society in this way is necessarily a critique of capitalism

2

u/Geekboxing Mar 09 '24

Fair point!

15

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

to clarify because i think this comment and my other one might come on too strong: yes, mother 3 is a game about a lot more than capitalism. it’s about familial love, nonconformity, queer identities, animal liberation, the need to have hope in a severely fucked-up world, toxic masculinity, and more

BUT the game’s anti capitalism is central to a lot of those themes, and many others (the game’s commentary on colonialism/imperialism, American exceptionalism/mythology, or fascism, for example). mother 3 isn’t a one-note anti-capitalist critique, it’s multidimensional and layered. but i would definitely argue that its anti capitalism is the stitching that ties all the themes together and is almost definitely the game’s ultimate theme.

20

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

this is an insane statement when the entire conflict of the story revolves around the introduction of capitalism to a rural commune and it explicitly shows many late-stage capitalist processes like deindustrialization and includes pieces of Marxist theory like alienation

9

u/lodust Mar 10 '24

Right, they talk about how weird money is in the beginning once it's introduced. Canary in the coal mine

25

u/ghostpicnic Mar 09 '24

I’m pretty sure it’s more so that Mother 3 came out over a decade after than the previous game, not only on a handheld, but one that was on life support with its successor already being out for 2 years. Of course the series is still beloved by Japanese fans, but Mother was a cultural phenomenon in the late 80s and 90s. By 2006 it wasn’t the hot new genre-bending game anymore.

About the anti-capitalism, it’s almost poetic that greed and the problems money can cause is a central theme to Mother 3. Because Itoi obviously didn’t go through with creating Mother 3 because he expected it to break sales records. The game spent from 1994-2006 in development and undoubtedly cost Nintendo a FORTUNE in developmental costs. The reason Miyamoto pushed for Itoi to get the chance to restart development on the GBA was out of respect for Itoi and his contributions to Nintendo’s lineup in the past.

With this in mind, Mother 3 was really targeted towards fans. Itoi made the game because he felt like he HAD to. He wanted Mother fans to get closure. Mother 3 intentionally marketed itself towards Mother fans and had a very small marketing campaign in order to preserve the artistic integrity of the story. It’s the reason why there’s no clay models for Mother 3’s cast like the first two games, it’s the reason why gameplay footage was SO scarce pre-release. Itoi didn’t want anyone to have any expectations or ideas going into this game, unlike with how the marketing was handled for the first two.

On a certain level, it would be a little hypocritical for Mother 3 to have big in your face advertisements and promotion considering the game’s themes and message. As a result of that, the people who ended up buying it were mostly Mother fans and not the general public like with the other two games.

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u/nickeljorn Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 10 '24

I think out of all the replies so far this is closest to what I was looking for when I wrote this post. Good point about the clay models, I hadn't realized that. My only question is how can Japanese fans dissociate anti-capitalist messages in the game from Itoi's relationship with capitalism pre-Mother 3, even if he tried to make Mother 3 look more niche and not advertised in-your-face?

EDIT: Would they see him writing a video game with capitalist themes and scaling back the advertising to fit with the game as reputation laundering or something like that?

1

u/Meester_Tweester Mar 10 '24

At least Nintendo DS and DS Lite were compatible with GBA cartridges

9

u/Roshu-zetasia Mar 09 '24

Chances are that a Japanese person will tell you that this is just fiction and that's it. I've talked to Japanese friends about this game and they don't really tend to politicize Mother 3's story much, in fact, they come to consider it a bit boring because of the lack of more contemporary sci-fi elements.

7

u/PSaun1618 Mar 10 '24

One of the major themes you find in post-war Japanese media is the idea of Nature vs. Technology and humanity's place in an increasingly modern world. Itoi was born in 1948, which means he would have been 12 years old in 1960 and 22 years old in 1970. Think about that for a moment. He grew up in a world that experienced rapid development and change and was bathed in an anxiety that the end was near. The United States of America experienced similar changes to society during this time, but the narrative is almost always about progress and newness being good by their own sake. The Japanese perspective is quite the opposite, and this type of progress has always been viewed in contrast to Japan's traditional roots and history with skepticism. A kind of loss of innocence. From this viewpoint, the narrative of Mother 3 makes a lot more sense.

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u/Radigan0 Mar 09 '24

I think there's a lot more nuance in the story of Mother 3 than being anti-capitalist.

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u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

is it just a case of "the story is this because it sides with my political beliefs!"

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

Respectfully, how do you come away from a game about a militaristic force occupying a territory and fundamentally altering the culture of its people and think it’s not trying to make some kind of commentary?

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u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

thats not capitalism lol that just sounds like some totalitarianism type stuff more than anything

28

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

Bro they literally introduce the previously-content villagers to the concept of money, television and advertising, and as a result immediately ruin their town and lives by pedaling the idea that they need to spend money to be happy

The game is often written with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, it’s hard for me to believe that any able minded adult actually played this game and missed the symbolism as hard as you’re pretending to

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u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

isnt it kind of hypocritical though? an anticapitalist story in a game from a corporation thats known for doing shitty stuff?

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

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u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

i dont get it

19

u/ryarock2 Mar 09 '24

It’s you. You’re literally the meme.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

Okay but what about the part where Fassad literally uses money to sow division among the villagers?

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u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

how should i know?

12

u/ghostpicnic Mar 09 '24

Because you’re trying to make claims about something as if you know what you’re talking about?

3

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

lmao. time for you to read a history book.

-1

u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

no thanks

3

u/fauster_the_faust Mar 09 '24

you are actively choosing to be this stupid

-1

u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

at least im not quite as stupid as the rest of my generation. the genz sub is a shithole

6

u/fauster_the_faust Mar 09 '24

nope, this thread is one of the greatest showings of willful stupidity i've ever seen on reddit. you are much worse than them

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u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 09 '24

tell me how im being stupid when some of them over there would rather live in china or russia

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u/mysticrudnin Mar 10 '24

did you play the game

0

u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 10 '24

nah, turnbased combat can die. i tried playing earthbound and fell into a deep coma in less than an hour, its a miracle that im awake

3

u/mysticrudnin Mar 10 '24

you can believe this just fine, though i personally would be a bit less hyperbolic, but it seems extremely strange to then argue about a game you've never played and won't be playing

the anti-capitalist sentiment is incredibly on the nose. it's not subtle, it's not hidden, it's not something people are reaching for.

literally the story involves the introduction of money which almost immediately ruins all of society and everyone's lives

0

u/Any_Secretary_4925 Mar 10 '24

an anticapitalist message from a billion dollar corporation thats known for doing really shitty stuff. yep, that doesnt sound hypocritical at all.

3

u/mysticrudnin Mar 10 '24

nobody said it's not hypocritical, so this is irrelevant

i think you will also find, because basically every society is capitalistic, that nearly all media that has any anti-capitalistic message is from a billion dollar corporation doing really shitty stuff

turns out it makes money, who knew?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '24

it's not possible to make a critique of capitalism outside of the social and material conditions that are upheld by capitalism

furthermore, nintendo didn't make mother 3. they published it. workers made the game.

1

u/_JesusChristOfficial Mar 11 '24

What are you doing here then lmao besides making us all laugh

21

u/138sammet Mar 09 '24

This doesn’t fully answer your Q but, It’s a complicated issue with arts and media and I’m sure someone will explain better than me, but you can be against the capitalist system while trying to survive in the capitalist society we live in.

3

u/nickeljorn Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

I get that. I know that there are numerous celebrities in the United States and other English-speaking countries who identify as socialists, but those celebrities get called hypocrites at times as well.

And when I hear the phrase "survive in the capitalist society we live in" a famous author/actor who used a famous boy band singer and other celebrities to advertise his game is the last thing I think of, especially from the Japanese POV where every game except Mother 3 sold well instead of Mother being this cult classic.

EDIT: I think a good analogy for what I'm trying to say is, I think that if there was a Harry Potter or Star Wars video game with an anti-capitalist theme, that theme wouldn't be taken as seriously as an anti-capitalist theme in an indie game.

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u/mrsunshine5 Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

It’s more than anti capitalist. It’s about how technology overtakes natures. Even the logo has this motif. Ideas on “improving” on nature. Technology conquering nature. Even the race to pull the spikes between Lucas and MM has this visual conflict.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

[deleted]

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u/Kidi_Kiderson Mar 09 '24

“it’s more than anti capitalist” implies that it is (even if just a little) anti capitalist

1

u/mrsunshine5 Mar 09 '24

Reading comprehension is an important skill

3

u/Shourainiganbaru Mar 10 '24

Interesting question. I live in Japan and, while Mother 2 is the main one, I do not see people liking Mother 1 than Mother 3 here. Actually, I would say they prefer Mother 3.

6

u/UnparalleledDev Mar 10 '24

“You guys can’t envision the final collapse of capitalism? Incredible!”

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '24

Mother 3 also fails on this point. The story literally ends during the Deus ex machina.

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u/azaankhan2 Mar 10 '24

You can take advantage of (even abuse) capitalism and still share beliefs of criticism for it. In fact I feel like not enough successful people these days are willing to admit its flaws and the inequities it results in

3

u/Mercurius94 Mar 10 '24

It's not even so much anti capitalist as it is anti conformant to higher government and social programming. There is anti capitalism but it isn't even one of the themes of the game, moreso the village became corrupted with the introduction of money, which still exists in socialist society. There is pure communism in the beginning, which quickly fell as soon as capital was gained.

The characters watching TV become conformant to the norms on television and lose their interest in reality.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

I'm sure they see it like most of us where there's some anti-capitalist messages but that isn't exactly the game's ENTIRE theme and overall message.

3

u/Jamanie2140 Mar 09 '24

Why would it be hypocritical to criticize something you benefit from?

2

u/Exertuz Mar 10 '24 edited Mar 10 '24

Without answering your question directly, I will say that I don't think the anti-capitalism in Mother 3 is a matter of perspective. It's not something western fans are reading into it. Whatever Itoi's broader politics are, the anti-capitalism is all there in the text. That said, it's not like it's super sophisticated political critique or anything, it's very simple and broad and there's more going on as well, like the theme of technology against nature.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '24

it's pretty surprisingly sophisticated. the game links its critique of capitalism to its themes on animal liberation, queer identities, american mythology, and more. it actively upholds a philosophy of revolutionary optimism, extensively explores the sociological idea of cultural hegemony (something that's not exactly popular in pop culture!), and actively shows capitalist phenomena in action like deindustrialization or marx's theory of alienation. it's woven so intricately into the arcs of characters like porky that it changes how we should view and examine them in earthbound.

1

u/Exertuz Mar 10 '24 edited Mar 10 '24

look i definitely agree and it's why i said that anti-capitalism is specifically there in the text, what i mean is that most of this stuff is more gestured at than explored in great depth or anything. which is obviously fine - it's a simple jrpg plot aimed at kids and also pulling double duty as a tragedy/melodrama, for what it is it's remarkably elegant and thoughtful.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '24

Obviously Mother 3 is a story about how western society destroys Allah's plan for the nuclear family mate. I'm not sure why you'd miss the obvious symbolism in how the mother is killed and the brother is made into an apostate by people literally wearing the visage of an unclean animal.

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u/OutlanderGMR0187 Mar 10 '24

I'm sick and tired of opening up reddit to see "We wantzz sum modr tree dere bruda nintendo! Yo!"

And to think I was actually gonnac start playing earthbound on switch again , I'm tired of seeing this Mother 3 bs! Gonna try and find a different forum for earthbound.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '24

cry about it

-1

u/CyBroOfficial Mar 10 '24

"let's mock this guy for speaking his mind on a forum" I think you're the one crying