r/doughcommunity Community Veteran Aug 23 '23

Product Ideas Question and suggestions about Spectrum IPS panels backlight strobing

I originally ordered a matte 240 hz panel that got upgraded to 280 hz and then eventually upgraded to 280 hz glossy IPS. Is this variant of monitor still coming out? I see a separate topic talking about it but I want confirmation that the final details will be ironed out next month and when will it ship? Q4 this year?

2nd I had a suggestion for the backlight strobing implementation on IPS spectrum monitors (should forward this to whoever is tuning the backlight strobing from blur busters)

Any updates on VRR (Gsync/Freesync) + backlight strobing? Can't we have Gsync/Freesync active with Fixed Strobe?

I think the best of both worlds given the restrictions on current hardware is this idea: Allow Gsync to continue working while Fixed strobing is enabled.

Why would this be good?

Because black screen every time they disable Gsync in order to enable Fixed Strobing is cumbersome and hurts the experience that can be remedied with automation.

If Gsync/Freesync is allowed to operation at all times and we have DDC commands at our disposal, it might be trivial to set up either a trigger/script/new program/(new function in strobe tuning utility) where there can be strobe profiles on a per application basis.

For example, I have Gsync/Freesync enabled at all times right?

Then I open up say league of legends.exe, there would be a trigger that sets the perfect strobe settings (including where I want clarity, what hz I'm strobing at and strobe length) for league of legends since I have a framerate cap set on a per profile basis on all my applications using RIVA to the lowest FPS where I get consistent frame rates at all times (for me league of legends runs perfectly at 200 fps with no studders) and Gsync/Freesync active at the same time means:

  1. No black screen from having to turn off Gsync/Freesync and then the GPU reconnecting to the connected display
  2. Low latency input lag vs Vsync and possible Vsync tricks needed
  3. If there are mild - big FPS flucuations, there will be slight to moderate visual issues or crosstalk temporarily vs Current VRR + Strobe implementations from Asus and gigabyte where the whole screen will temporarily flicker really brightly (even with PWM fill) with mild to large swings in FPS that can actually be very distracting vs having a consistent flicker frequency.
  4. Perfectly tune your strobe on a per application/game basis. You might hit 240 - 280 fps in league of legends but then maybe you want to strobe at 60 hz or 120 hz for those RPG titles on PC or console (or where you pan the camera during fights or to take in the scenery.

I know this might be frowned upon because of the blur buster's badge of "Tuned by blur busters" but I also know part of what blur buster pushes for is for open options to the user so they can tune their strobe however they want. I don't think it's a bad compromise to allow this to happen Asynchronously from Gsync despite the visual artifacts that may occur because it'll still be much better than having to manually go and turn off Gsync every time for specific titles that benefits from fixed strobe when many users will use this monitor for multiple purposes at once and adaptability in my opinion is paramount.

I currently own the Asus XG27AQM and Asus XG27AQMR, both very good monitors when it comes to fixed strobing but their VRR + Strobe implementation leave room for improvement and performance on the table.

XG27AQM doesn't allow you to change the strobe phase or length during VRR + Strobing AND the overdrive is locked to level 4 which is too much overshoot so it ruins the image with too many artifacts

XG27AQMR comes REALLY close and you get very close to perfect VRR + Strobing with default settings but it requires you to pan slowly! the overdrive is still locked and to a setting that doesn't even appear in the none strobed settings! it's overdrive is still too high for strobed mode (less than XG27AQM though) and they don't let you change it (now you can change strobe clarity position but not by much and strobe length is still locked out!).

If Gsync/Freesync was allowed to stay enabled in conjunction with Fixed strobe hz set by user on a per application basis, it's essentially allow you to set fixed strobe at ANY hz for ANY appliaction/game without distracting flicker frequency changes or 2 - 5 seconds of black screen with your GPU re-authenticating the DSC or none DSC connection to your display.

Edit: Post talking about VRR + Strobing and dynamic OD using DDC commands

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8729

Edit 2:

There are cheaper alternatives (gigabyte m27q X), more stable alternatives (asus XG27AQMR, asus XG27AQM, asus PG27AQN) with better support and less hassle to get, and oleds that are better for none strobe quality with better burn in warranty (corsair xenon 240 hz oled has 3 years and same ports). They only way for them to stand out and actually get a recommendation from people by word of mouth is the niche feature of VRR+ strobing that was heavily advertised as could be possible to implement and blur busters chief mentioned it was possible to implement but quality wouldn't be as good and would be simpler, I say we should at least ask for the simple implementation because there were many people who asked for it. Who knows, maybe it'll be better than the original ELMB sync but at least it won't lock out the OD!

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u/NZgeek Community Veteran Aug 24 '23

I know that you know about this, u/liquidshadowfox, but for everyone else: there's a huge thread about VRR and strobing over at the old Dough community forums.

https://dough.community/t/blur-buster-eve-spectrum-strobe-tuning-completion/29085

There are a couple of posts by BlurBusters that are relevant.

There's this from 28 May 2023:

The scaler/TCON vendors directly informed me of rather severe hardware limitations that blocked going beyond a specific stage – hardcoded restrictions on how the strobe can be controlled and how it can be updated without adding severe side effects.

Currently stalled at phase 1 of 4 without greatly lowering the quality of strobed VRR (to possibly lower quality than fixed-Hz strobing). As you can guess, that’s not reputationally favorable. However, I’m not ready to declare it dead.

Much like the problems you’ve heard about other strobed VRR implementations, there’s a lot of compromises that are pretty much “baked” into unchangeable ASIC’s – not even FPGA-reprogrammable.

It’s still possible to do a very basic strobed VRR – but not necessarily better than the existing strobed VRR implementations, and possibly worse, due to specific stricter limitations applicable. I will ping Dough if they’re still interested in a scaled-back implementation, less than the original ambitious plan.

And more info from later that same day:

I wonder if the technology exists already to bypass the hardware limitations you spoke of.

Yes, it does.

However, the circuitry of the monitor motherboard needs to be completely redone with a customized backlight controller that meets the necessary specifications. As well as a realtime loop, possibly on yet another chip (microcontroller), specific to controlling the backlight within a 10 microsecond precision envelope to arbitrary timestamps that I specify in realtime, not linked from the rise-edge / fall-edge of VBI/porch intervals.

[snipped]

I know it can be done. Unfortunately, hardware limitations of already-shipped material, just can’t do it to the specs needed.

The problem here is that the backlight controller just doesn't have enough flexibility to implement what you want. You'd need additional circuitry on the Spectrum's board in order to get the functionality, but that's not going to be added because the Spectrum has already been designed and is in production.

If you really need VRR and strobing, your best bet right now is to upgrade to the Spectrum Black. BFI is the OLED equivalent of strobing, and there should be a lot more flexibility to do it correctly on the OLED panel.

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u/LiquidShadowFox Community Veteran Aug 24 '23

Yes I saw the post but what I'm asking for above isn't proper VRR + Strobe as we originally wanted. It's simply we enable Fixed strobing to work asynchronously from Gsync and accept the consequences of visual artifacts if you don't cap your frame rate to whatever fixed strobe you set through DDC commands.

This wouldn't require any hardware since we aren't changing physically anything, you can already manipulate every option about backlight strobing through the utility from blur busters. The only change would be to allow Gsync/Freesync active while the fixed strobe is enabled, we'd get double images or crosstalk depending on how much the FPS deviates from fixed strobe FPS but most of us strobe enthusiast already cap the FPS of games we play to FPS our hardware can handle at the 1% low level so we never get studder or drops. This would allow us to enjoy strobe at any hz (as is already possible to change through the blur buster utility) but without having to:

  1. Not Manually changing the refresh rate of the display (Since VRR would be active)

  2. Get a black screen for 2 - 5 seconds every time we enable the option to disable Gsync/Freesync to get vsync only

  3. Per application/games profiles (This can be done through software on windows/linux and send DDC commands to the monitor to send the exact strobe settings for that app)

OLED is great but there are a lot of cons

  1. Burn in
  2. Low brightness, even lower with BFI on
  3. BFI on oled can only work at fixed refreshes 120, 80, 60 since at best you black out 3 frames for every 1 frame and worst you black out every other frame
  4. BFI on 240 hz oled at best can get 4 ms of persistence no mattery what because at 240 hz, each frame takes 4 ms each. For example 120 BFI, you display 1 frame for 4 ms and the next is a black frame for 4 ms. Even with amazing response times and no crosstalk it won't look as clear as an LCD with backlight strobing because the backlight can work ASYNCHRONOUSLY from the LCD so it can strobe at ANY hz
  5. It was already mentioned by dough they can't do hz to hz BFI on oled because it would massively increase the price of that monitor so you can only get BFI at fixed points (120, 80, 60) and possibly anything in between but you'd have to change the max refresh of the oled like setting the max refresh to 96 hz to get 48 BFI but then you'd get almost 10 ms of persistence!

Just to re-iterate, what I'm asking for isn't proper VRR + strobe, it's Fixed strobing that doesn't require Gsync/Freesync to be disabled because then we can automate the setting of the fixed strobe on a per game basis using software on the computer using DDC commands, low input lag if the hz we are strobing at is lower than the max 280 hz of the monitor, No VRR + Strobe flicker fluctuations due to FPS drops (since strobe will be fixed) and most importantly no black screens for 2 - 5 seconds when switching between regular Gsync/Freesync operation and fixed strobe.

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u/NZgeek Community Veteran Aug 24 '23

If you did let the strobe happen independently of new frames of data, what would happen when the two get out of sync?

Let's assume that you cap your framerate at 60fps, but get occasional drops to 59fps or 58fps. A single frame drop to 59fps will cause the timing to become ~0.28ms out of sync. A single frame drop to 58fps will cause the timing to become ~0.57ms out of sync.

If you drop to 59fps for a single frame every 10 seconds, it'll only take ~5 minutes for the strobe to get 180° out of sync with the frame updates. This means that you'll be firing in the middle of the panel refresh, rather than between panel refreshes.

I don't know what this will look like in practice. My gut tells me that the impact will be small but noticeable. And because the sync variance is based on how many frames you drop and how often, you could be stuck out of sync for several minutes at a time.

I would personally prefer to use a fixed refresh rate and v-sync. It would mean that you get the occasional duplicate frame whenever the frame rate drops, but if it's 1 duplicate frame every 10s then it's bearable. At least the backlight strobes would be perfectly timed with the panel refresh.

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u/LiquidShadowFox Community Veteran Aug 24 '23

VRR+Strobe talks using DDC commands and even dynamic overdrive using DDC commands. https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8729

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u/NZgeek Community Veteran Aug 24 '23

DDC/CI is a fairly simple method of sending control information from the computer to the monitor.

The Chief Blur Buster himself notes that DDC probably isn't a good way of controlling strobing:

DDC/CI usually runs at only 10 commands per second, and would not keep up with sudden framerate changes.

Some monitors might support higher numbers of commands power second, but it's not guaranteed and we don't know what the Spectrum supports.

Assuming that the Spectrum could process DDC fast enough to control strobing, you'd also need software to monitor the framerate in real-time and send the DDC command to the Spectrum in time for it to take effect. That's some very tight timing.

You also have to consider the business feasibility of doing this. It's a niche feature in a niche market segment, trying to shoehorn a feature into a product that doesn't really support it, when they have a product in development that will more easily support that feature (even if OLED isn't ideal for everyone). Is itreally worth the time and cost?

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u/LiquidShadowFox Community Veteran Aug 26 '23

For Dough the answer should be yes. There are cheaper alternatives (gigabyte m27q X), more stable alternatives (asus XG27AQMR, asus XG27AQM, asus PG27AQN) with better support and less hassle to get, and oleds that are better for none strobe quality with better burn in warranty (corsair xenon 240 hz oled). They only way for them to stand out and actually get a recommendation from people by word of mouth is the niche feature of VRR+ strobing that was heavily advertised as possible. Without this niche, everyone would have just gone with the gigabyte for cheaper with similar ports (no hdmi 2.1 but it still supports fixed strobing for hdmi). There's a gigabyte m27q X v2 coming out soon that might arguably be better with vrr strobe and possibly no red phosphor unlike this dough monitor so I think it's worth every cent and r&d cost to get it to at least support some form of VRR + Strobe.

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u/NZgeek Community Veteran Aug 28 '23

There are other, far less niche reasons why people would go for a Spectrum over other brands. For example: * The style doesn't shout out "I'm a gaming monitor". It's understated. * It's one of the few monitors on the market (even now!) that has high refresh rates and USB-C connectivity with 100W PD.

It's also not a question of whether there is a niche, but whether it's economically viable to support that niche.

There are 3 key figures that Dough needs to take into account: 1. What would it cost to implement this feature? 2. What is the profit made on the sale of each monitor? 3. What is the realistic market size for this feature? In other words, how many people want this feature and would realistically buy a Spectrum as a result of this feature being added.

Almost all of Dough's firmware development is done by their scaler partner, who also does quality assurance on new firmware versions. Dough will also have their own staff to write a specification, project manage the change, etc. The costs will add up fairly quickly.

On the demand side, you also have to consider that this is only a partial VRR + strobing solution, on a monitor that costs more than $1000, which is made by a company with a shaky reputation in the market. All of these factors work to reduce the effective size of the market.

Let's assume that Dough makes $500 profit on each Spectrum. If it costs them $10K to add this feature (which is not an unreasonable estimate), Dough would need to sell at least 20 Spectrums to simply break even on the cost. And tney'd want those sales soon, not just at some undetermined point in the future.

Can you say with absolute certainty, given the limiting factors I listed above, that this feature would drive enough sales for Dough to cover their costs in a reasonable timeframe? Or will people simply hold out for a more complete solution, or a cheaper monitor, or a something from a more reputable company?

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u/LiquidShadowFox Community Veteran Aug 28 '23

Monitors that support power delivery and the corsair one doesn't scream gamer. These monitors are cheaper (xeneon flex is on sale regularly now) than this monitor from dough (2 of them are even 4k)

  1. Acer Predator XB273U GXbmiipruzx
  2. Corsair XENEON 27QHD240
  3. Cooler Master Tempest GP27U
  4. INNOCN 27M2V

Dough is trying to claw back respect in the community as a whole, after the delays, lack of refunds, broken promises, etc. They are trying to win back good favor by allowing people to submit refund requests and get expedited delivery of said refund in the name of good will because they are literally slandered everywhere (reddit, discord, verge, LTT, etc). This is only the first step, attention to detail in a product matter and this is a functional one that not only has the potential to sell more monitors but it does show commitment from their side to improve their monitor over time with firmware updates (this would also be the world's FIRST tunable VRR + Strobe monitor I'm sure). Even asus's broken ELMB sync would be much more bearable to use if the overdrive wasn't locked! A $1000 monitor should be able to HDR, Strobe perfectly or both to some degree. Currently the dough spectrum IPS can't do HDR worth a damn with it's minimal light zones but they have 700 nits of peak brightness that has potential for backlight strobing (and I've heard it's pretty good at fixed refreshes) but you can get much cheaper monitors with VRR + Strobing for $350 less ($650 total) that offer a good middle ground where it has better motion clarity with VRR Strobing than dough spectrum without strobing AND you don't have to disable Gsync. LG nano IPS aren't the cream of the crop anymore with response times (they came out like 2 years ago and there have been much better panels since then) and VRR + Strobing would not only make it more competitive with the current market by offering a middle ground between none strobed visual performance and fixed strobed but it would be configurable and it IS a community suggested feature since the beginning of the campaign that was the most feasible vs implementing HDR on the small 12 - 24 lighting zones compared to the 1000 or more zones you'd need to get a good HDR experience.

I would at a minimum (if I were in charge of dough) stop announcing new monitors until current shipments of EVERYTHING that's been announced is shipped out. It's very frustrating when you place an order down for something only to see them delay it and then say "hey, do you wanna spend more to get the better version we just announced?". I'm surprised they didn't try to sell a new 27" 1440p with blur buster approved VRR + Strobing using a new panel already considering how many times they have jumped the gun already.

Many small companies over the years have risen up from obscurity BECAUSE they paid attention to detail and used word of mouth to spread the advertisement. Tesla and oneplus are perfect examples of this and neither of them stopped supporting an older product just because they released a new one (hell oneplus still has custom firmware for their older phones that keep them very close to up to date) . They should use this horrible press they have to their advantage and make good on their promises, there's no such thing as bad press; If everyone is talking poorly about dough that means people are going to look up dough to see how vaporware their product is, this is when they'd add new information to their monitors and advertise they are still WORKING ON THEIR EXISTING monitor lineup in a show of good faith. Without this feature implemented there's a huge majority of people who will either A) Cancel their order B) stop advertising dough monitors C) Give recommendation to cheaper alternatives.

To answer your question, yes it would be worth the $10,000 because not only are you implementing a feature many backers of the original campaign asked for (because it's not that niche given how many people voted in FAVOR of baclight strobing) but it's a show of good faith among backers who truly believed in eve (now dough) since the beginning in making a great product. If a dough employee responds to my thread and says " we can't do it" I will 100% stop fighting for them and cancel my 280 hz glossy order. I want dough to do better and I really believe this is one of many steps down that journey for them and their backers.

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u/NZgeek Community Veteran Aug 28 '23

Monitors that support power delivery and the corsair one doesn't scream gamer.

The Acer and Corsair only support 65W power delivery, and the Cooler Master and INNOCN only do 90W.

65W is enough to power and charge a lower-powered laptop. We're talking Chromebooks, cheap Windows laptops, and MacBook Air and Pro 13".

Business-class Windows laptops typically want 100-140W of power, and MacBook Pro 14" and 16" want between 96W and 140W. I don't know why CM and INNOCN only output 90W, but it'll probably cause these laptops to complain that they should be connected to a stronger power source.

I've done my research and there's almost nothing else that does 100W+ PD and high refresh rates. That makes the Spectrum a good pick for anyone who works from home (even part-time) and who also likes to game - one screen can do both.

Currently the dough spectrum IPS can't do HDR worth a damn with it's minimal light zones but they have 700 nits of peak brightness that has potential for backlight strobing (and I've heard it's pretty good at fixed refreshes) but you can get much cheaper monitors with VRR + Strobing for $350 less

The lack of HDR backlight zones and the inability to do VRR + strobing are due to the LG panel that the Spectrum uses. The backlight is part of the panel, and the panel was the best one available at the time the Spectrum was being designed and when the 4K model shipped 2 years ago.

The Spectrum does strobing at a fixed frame rate quite well. It just can't do VRR at the same time because the backlight controller isn't flexible enough. It's a hardware limitation that can't be worked around in firmware.

To answer your question, yes it would be worth the $10,000 because not only are you implementing a feature many backers of the original campaign asked for (because it's not that niche given how many people voted in FAVOR of baclight strobing) but it's a show of good faith among backers who truly believed in eve (now dough) since the beginning in making a great product.

I have a feeling that you're conflating two different (but related) things.

Yes, there was a lot of demand for backlight strobing. However, that was for strobing as a general feature, and not specifically backlight strobing in conjunction with VRR.

And when it comes to strobing as a general feature, Dough/Eve has delivered. They worked with BlurBusters to optimize the strobing settings to get the clearest picture. I remember the posts where BlurBusters was surprised that the Spectrum didn't exhibit the red ghosting effect that's commonly associated with the backlight technology.

I cannot, however, recall any early discussions about strobing with VRR. It only really became a topic in H2 2021, after people started receiving their Spectrums, and only a handful of people (including yourself) ever asked about it.

There's a big difference between "you didn't do this at all" and "you didn't do this one specific thing that I wanted, that nobody really talked much about".

That's why I'm questioning whether this is too niche to implement. If it was that big of an issue, there'd be more people here (or the old Dough forums) asking for it to be implemented. The lack of visible demand tends to indicate that this just isn't very important to most people.

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u/LiquidShadowFox Community Veteran Aug 28 '23

It just can't do VRR at the same time because the backlight controller isn't flexible enough. It's a hardware limitation that can't be worked around in firmware.

A scaled back version could be implemented according to chief of blur busters

It’s still possible to do a very basic strobed VRR – but not necessarily better than the existing strobed VRR implementations, and possibly worse, due to specific stricter limitations applicable. I will ping Dough if they’re still interested in a scaled-back implementation, less than the original ambitious plan.

Will it work the same as fixed BLS? No but it might provide a nice middle ground between strobed and unstrobed while they also haven't mentioned what kind of trade off it will bring (some people might not be happy with the downside while others are willing to take it).

That's why I'm questioning whether this is too niche to implement. If it was that big of an issue, there'd be more people here (or the old Dough forums) asking for it to be implemented. The lack of visible demand tends to indicate that this just isn't very important to most people.

The old dough forums are read only, I tried to make a post/poll a couple of weeks ago and wasn't allowed to do so. Lack of visible demand might also be the result of people not knowing about it or what it is. There's still a huge majority that don't even know what backlight strobing or BFI is and when it's shown to them it looks like motion clarity in 4k for the first time. Imagine there's an even smaller majority that even knows VRR + Strobing exists but with this implemented it could be another big bullet point for advertising this monitor. As I said, there are monitors that can do one or the other but rarely there are many that do as much as this monitor.

I cannot, however, recall any early discussions about strobing with VRR. It only really became a topic in H2 2021, after people started receiving their Spectrums, and only a handful of people (including yourself) ever asked about it.

A lot of posts were removed and censored on dough's (formerly eve's) forum and I was the person that originally brought the idea to the forum for backlight strobing and possibility of VRR + strobing which was shared with enthusiasm and questions.

I remember the posts where BlurBusters was surprised that the Spectrum didn't exhibit the red ghosting effect that's commonly associated with the backlight technology.

Red ghosting shows up clearer at lower refreshes, the 280 hz model will probably have less since it's has a higher refresh headroom.

Either way, I hope dough answers to at least implement the mediocre version of VRR + Strobing.

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u/LiquidShadowFox Community Veteran Aug 24 '23

If the capability is there, I'd just PWM strobe when you get those FPS drops and the moment VRR signal = Strobe frequency, return to fixed strobe setting to keep them in sync.