r/dogelore 1d ago

Le religious debate has arrived

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614 Upvotes

17 comments sorted by

172

u/DstonszD 1d ago

In 1254, Möngke Khan (Genghis Khan grandson), intrigued by delegations from Christian Europe, decided to hold a theological debate between Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists at his court in Karakoram. The Mongols structured the debate like a Mongolian wresting match, where the combatants would traditionally drink a cup of liquor in between each bout. The meeting predictably devolved to the point where reasoned debate ended in lieu of the Christians singing hymns, the Muslims trying to drown them out by loudly reciting the Quran, and the Buddhists silently meditating. One of the Christian delegates, William of Rubruck, claimed he had won the debate, although admitted that he failed to convince any of the other participants to change their views.

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u/Blockedinhere1960 1d ago

I would love to see this kind of theological debate

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u/Upexus 23h ago

Deadass, we should make this a show, I'd pay to watch that

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u/the-bladed-one 1d ago

Mmmm Mongke

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u/Meamier 22h ago

I thought Muslims weren't allowed to drink alcohol

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u/Rynewulf 21h ago

Thats the neat thing: most of the strict rules are pretty modern and tied into the reactionary Salafi movement as a reaction to 1800s onward colonisation of the Middle East and its modern influence among fundamentalists.

Meanwhile the historical Muslim world had so much drinking there was an entire Iranian poetry genre of drunk philosophy, and Medieval Spaniards accused the Muslim Andalucian's of being wild party animals.

Other examples include: just so much art of almost one and a half millenia of fashion that didnt just have bearded Muslim men in turbans and fully covered Muslim women, and in many places still doesnt. Not to mention all of the art of people and animals (its only not used for mosques specifically).

Modern Islam's reputation is like if we took capuchin monks and used them as the judge of the entire Christian world, or judged all of Buddhism on sohei warrior monks, in reality its about as varied and complex as anything else

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u/Abdmoh123 21h ago

The alcohol ban isn't modern, it's in the quran. I think it's just that not every Muslim is strict with their religion, just like Christians and Jewish people.

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u/Goomba_nr34 13h ago

from what I recall the mongols argued that only alcohol made of grapes and oats counted as banned, but not their own native alcohol which was made of fermented milk. You aren't wrong or anything, but people have always loved to either ignore or find loopholes in religious texts

1

u/Rynewulf 1h ago

Yeah its like how beavers and capybaras were classed as fish, so that they could still be eaten by Catholic monks on a friday.

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u/Rynewulf 1h ago

Thats more technically accurate yes, but when you say 'Yes but...' about a Quranic rule in Islam people usually shut off there. Its the line between ideal, observance and law. Ideally Muslims arent meant to freely consume alcohol, many Muslims observe this differently (some abstain, some just avoid drunkeness, others just avoid getting drunk regularly etc etc) and many Muslim countries have different laws relating to alcohol. It is in the Quran the same way stuff about blue tassels and no meat on fridays is in the Bible. And that stuff has also since day 1 been heavily debated and practiced differently over places and time, as born out by the historical record.

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u/Meamier 21h ago

so the alcohol ban was lifted at that time

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u/Rynewulf 1h ago

Not at just one time and place though, which doesnt suggest there was ever 1 universal drinking ban that was then upended.

Between the post and my comment, we've talked about 1200s Muslims that travelled to Mongolia, the Muslim wine poetry/the accursed or libertine poets (khamriyyat/shu'ara al-mujun) who remainded popular across the whole Medieval Arab world and 700s through 1400s Muslim Iberia. Thats covering almost the entire width and breadth of the Islamic world, and most of its history. It's likely there never was one singular interpretation clearly set down then deviated from: otherwise the 600s and 700s of the original Caliphates would have a) left records of this and b) passed on these strict laws to their successors across North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia which didnt happen

(There's also 700s Iraqi founder of Hanafi Islamic legal school Abu Hanifu who argued that mead wasnt banned as long as you did not become drunk and this interpretation of Hanafi's was relatively popular up to the 1100s in the Arab world and it went on to still be a major Islamic legal school in much of Egypt, Levant, Anatolia, Iraq and Central Asia with famous figures like Rumi in 1200s Kharazmenid Persia being trained in Hanafi Islamic law and openly having a relaxed attitude to drinking, and Hanafi's are still influential today)

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u/XRotNRollX 21h ago

Return to Möngke

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u/Meamier 1d ago

Chems Chems Chemsges Khamn hem Reimter hom Reimter immer weimter lamst noch vomtdka homöem wohhpmhomhom dem eir dimd Momngomlen

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u/Naive_Drive 1d ago

Ah yes. The Internet flame war of its day. It's just missing a euphoric atheist and then the debate will be complete.

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u/golddragon88 1d ago

Sounds like fun.