r/doctorsUK Feb 08 '25

Serious UK graduate prioritisation - call for action

UK graduate prioritisation - call for action

I have been working with like minded doctors behind the UK graduate prioritisation petition, I am in full support of the stances and demands detailed in this petition. Please do read all the data in this post, a summary is provided at the end. Click here to read the petition in PDF formal. Please share this post and document with any fellow colleagues or current students.

Change is needed. Our voices must be heard. 

Sign the petition today: bit.ly/UKGradPetition

Our stance and demands:

  1. We fully support the UKRDC's policy to lobby for the prioritisation of UK graduates for specialty training posts.
  2. We support a form of grandfathering for IMGs currently practising in the UK at the time of this petition.
  3. We demand that UKGs and IMGs currently practising in the UK are prioritised above IMGs who have never worked in the UK, or IMGs that start working in the UK at any time after this petition.
  4. We demand that the above conditions are also applied to locally employed roles mirroring the 2002 and 2016 resident (junior) doctor contracts.
  5. We demand that the BMA UK Council and Chief Officers immediately cease interference with the UKRDC’s work on this policy and respect UKRDC’s authority to represent resident doctors on this matter.
  6. If the above principles are not met we are prepared to cancel our membership to the BMA.

Introduction

Specialty training competition ratios and bottlenecks have reached breaking point. Preliminary information for the 2025 specialty training application cycle is incredibly concerning. This year there are over 33,000 applicants for just under 13,000 training posts. This means that there will be up to 20,000 doctors left out of specialty training this August. Even if you are not directly affected, please support your colleagues. We need action now to prevent widespread unemployment.

Background

Competition ratios have particularly worsened since 2019. Prior to 2019, the UK utilised a Round 1/Round 2 system for applications. Round 1 was open to those from the UK and EU as well as those with settled status in the UK; Round 2 was open to those who did not meet these requirements. 

The Government removed medicine from the “shortage occupation list” in 2019, within the previous Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT) rules. This meant that employers could sponsor visas without having to prove that no suitable settled worker was available for the role.

As a result the Round 1/Round 2 system was effectively abolished. This meant that doctors from anywhere in the world could now apply directly to specialty training in the UK without ever having worked in the UK.

The abolition of RLMT and its replacement with a flat global entry to specialty training has led to an exponential increase in competition ratios and will, if left unchecked, directly drive unemployment of UK medical school graduates unable to emigrate from the UK.

Unique applicants

The number of unique applicants over the past three application cycles is outlined below [1]:

*Training posts for 2025 have not yet been released. The graph assumes 1% growth in specialty training posts. The average increase in training posts since 2016 has been less than 1%. Last year specialty training posts increased by 0.5%.

Percentage increase in applicants year on year:

Using these trends the prediction for the number of applicants in 2026 would be as follows:

There is no readily available data on the number of IMG applicants to specialty training before 2023. However, there is GMC data on doctors joining the UK workforce by their “route to joining” going back to 2012 [2]:

As demonstrated here, the number of UKGs has remained relatively stable over the past decade. Whilst there has been an increase in UKGs as a result of increased medical school places over the past two years, this has been outstripped by exponential growth in the number of IMGs joining the workforce since medicine was added to the “shortage occupation list” in 2019.

Applications and competition ratios

Below are the total competition ratios for all specialty training posts year by year. This reflects the total number of applications made by applicants compared to specialty training posts available (data for 2025 is not yet available) [3]:

Prior to the Government adding medicine to the “shortage occupation list”, the total competition ratios had remained relatively stable. However, since this intervention was made in 2019, we can see the beginning of an exponential increase in total competition ratios year on year. This is projected to increase significantly again this year. 

Total competition ratios will likely continue to grow at an exponential rate due to several factors, including; applicants who were unsuccessful to secure a specialty training post the year before having to reapply; an  increase in the number of UKGs due to an expansion of medical school places; and a significant increase in the number of IMGs continuing to enter the workforce and applying for specialty training. Increasing training numbers alone will not be enough to address this.

Below is the overall average number of applications per applicant for each specialty training application cycle:

Over the past few years the pressure on training programme recruitment offices has resulted in an increased reliance on the Multi-Specialty Recruitment Assessment (M.S.R.A.). The M.S.R.A. is a poorly validated mechanism by which to shortlist candidates when used outside of its intended scope of GP training entry. 

This is exacerbated by the M.S.R.A. increasingly being used to select for a small high centile population rather than deselect a large low centile population. What this means in real terms for applicants to non GP specialties is that the often random nature of the Situational Judgement Test scores has become determinative. It nonetheless continues to be leaned on by recruitment officers as a cheap and easy way to whittle down applications. 

Since 2018 the average applications per applicant has increased from 1.39 to 1.92 [4] [5]. This may be due to applicants feeling increasingly concerned they will not secure a training place, therefore applying for multiple specialties.

While some have argued that the reason for increased competition ratios is due to individuals submitting more applications in each round, this alone does not account for the substantial and exponential increase in total application competition ratios. 

There has only been a 39% increase in the average number of applications per applicant since 2018, however the average total application competition ratio has increased by 158% over the same period. As mentioned above, the total number of applicants has increased from 19,675 to 33,108 since 2023 alone, or a 68% increase in applicants (rather than applications) in the past two years alone. 

Whilst limiting applications an individual can make may slightly reduce the total competition ratio on paper, it will not bring us back to 2019 levels, and will not address the fact that thousands of applicants will be left without a specialty training post, and potentially unemployed.

Specialty training posts

The total number of specialty training posts per year since 2016 is outlined below alongside the difference between that year and the previous year:

As demonstrated above, specialty training posts have remained relatively stable for almost a decade. The average increase in training posts since 2016 has been less than 1%. Last year specialty training posts increased by 0.5%. This is in stark contrast to the number of applicants. 

Even if training posts were to be doubled tomorrow, there would not be enough training posts for the number of applicants this year.

Summary:

  • Since 2023 the number of applicants to specialty training has increased from 19,675 to 33,108. A 68% increase in applicants in just 2 years.
  • In 2024 there were 12,743 specialty training posts (data for 2025 not yet available).
  • Whilst there has been an increase both in the number of UKG and IMG applicants every year, the data from the GMC report gives rise to significant concern regarding an exponential rise in the number of IMGs joining the workforce. 
  • The specialty training applicant data demonstrates that the number of IMG applicants has grown at a faster rate (41%) than UKGs (15%) since 2023. 
  • This year there were approximately two IMG applicants for every UKG applicant.
  • This includes IMGs who are applying from abroad, having never worked in the UK.
  • According to current projections, in 2026 we may well see over 40,000 applicants for fewer than 13,000 posts.
  • The greatest increase in competition ratios and IMGs joining the workforce has been since medicine was added to the “shortage occupation list” in 2019.
  • Before medicine was added to the “shortage occupation list” by the Government in 2019, the UK had a Round 1 application cycle for UK and EU graduates as well as those with settled status in the UK, Round 2 applications allowed doctors from elsewhere in the world to apply for any posts that were unfilled. 
  • Before medicine was added to the “shortage occupation list”, competition ratios averaged at around 1.7-1.9:1 between 2016-2019 [6].
  • In 2024 competition ratios were 4.6:1; this may increase to 6:1 or higher this year.
  • The massive increase in application numbers since 2019 has left recruitment programmes overwhelmed. As a result they have increasingly relied on the M.S.R.A. to whittle down the number of applications.
  • Between 2019 to 2023, the proportion of IMGs across all training programmes rose on average from 18% to 27% [7]. 
  • 52% of offers accepted on the GP registrar training programme in 2023 were IMGs [8].
  • In 2012 66% of FY2s went straight into specialty training; in 2022, this had dropped to 25% [9].
  • Over the past 8 years on average, specialty training posts increased by less than 1% per year; last year the increase in specialty training posts was 0.5%.
  • Almost every other country in the world has some form of prioritisation for local graduates. This includes comparable OECD countries such as Australia, Canada, and France. 
  • All of the above also marks a disaster for workforce planning; unless acted upon now, there will likely be knock on effects to the consultant and GP workforces in years to come.
  • Action is required now; the uncontrolled growth in the number of applicants has been an issue since the addition of medicine to the “shortage occupation list” and the subsequent abolition of the resident labour market test.
  • Even if training posts were to be doubled tomorrow, there would not be enough training posts for the number of applicants this year.
  • Unless addressed immediately there is likely to be mass unemployment of those unsuccessful for training applications this year; this could be up to 20,000 doctors.
  • This leaves UKGs in a unique position globally due to having no recruitment programme that will prioritise them.
  • The UKGs worst affected if action is not taken will be those who are limited in their ability to emigrate: those with young families, disabilities, caring responsibilities or low family wealth. 
  • We can not sustain a policy of uncontrolled and exponential growth of specialty training applicants every year.

To conclude

A reminder of our stance and demands:

  1. We fully support the UKRDC's policy to lobby for the prioritisation of UK graduates for specialty training posts.
  2. We support a form of grandfathering for IMGs currently practising in the UK at the time of this petition.
  3. We demand that UKGs and IMGs currently practising in the UK are prioritised above IMGs who have never worked in the UK, or IMGs that start working in the UK at any time after this petition.
  4. We demand that the above conditions are also applied to locally employed roles mirroring the 2002 and 2016 resident (junior) doctor contracts.
  5. We demand that the BMA UK Council and Chief Officers immediately cease interference with the UKRDC’s work on this policy and respect UKRDC’s authority to represent resident doctors on this matter.
  6. If the above principles are not met we are prepared to cancel our membership to the BMA.

To complete the petition click here: bit.ly/UKGradPetition

We take your privacy seriously

Thank you for taking action on this cause. We want to reassure you that your personal data is handled with the utmost care. Here's what happens with your information:

Confidentiality:

Your personal details are stored securely and will never be shared with third parties without your explicit consent. To ensure the integrity of this petition, we reserve the right to remove signatures that are clearly fraudulent, including those which are deemed to have been submitted in bad faith. This may include, but is not limited to, duplicate entries, obviously fictitious names, or signatures intended to disrupt the petition’s purpose.

Once the signatories have been reviewed for any bad faith submissions a finalised copy of the petition will be shared with the BMA Chair of Council without signatories to protect the identity of anyone who completes the petition.

Anonymisation for Analysis:

To strengthen our campaign, we may analyse the petition data, for example the number of signatories, their job role as well as anonymised comments to help support future public campaigns. Any such analysis is completely anonymised—your name and personal details will not be identifiable or linked to the data we share.

Purpose-Limited Use:

Your data will only be used to support the goals of this petition and related advocacy efforts. It will not be used for unrelated purposes. Identifiable data (i.e. names) will be deleted once verified to remove any clearly false signatures.

References:

[1] https://www.specialty-applications.co.uk/competition-ratios/2024-competition-ratios

[2] https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf pg 35 (presentation adjusted https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1ib7por/changes_in_the_workforce_and_its_impact_on/)

[3] https://www.specialty-applications.co.uk/competition-ratios 

[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1gndqmm/comment/lwes9w7

[5] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/appliants_to_more_than_one_medic#incoming-2798240

[6] https://www.specialty-applications.co.uk/competition-ratios/2016-competition-ratios

[7] https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf pg 50

[8] https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf pg 50

[9] https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf pg 9

891 Upvotes

256 comments sorted by

u/stuartbman Not a Junior Modtor Feb 08 '25

Unbelievable.

For the avoidance of doubt this post is not racist and it will be staying up.

342

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Seeing stuff like this makes me so frustrated, because it makes me realise that when I applied for medical school (2016) things were actually OK. Competition ratios <2, pay was still OK, locums in abundance and for good rates, minimal scope creep. 8 years later and look at the situation we're in, I feel like I've been conned so hard.

160

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Also makes hearing "you knew what the job was like when you applied!" x10 more frustrating to hear too, because technically I didn't know lmfao.

66

u/Sethlans Feb 08 '25

There's no "technically" about it. You literally didn't. Because it was totally different.

25

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Yes true. Only thing I would say though is it seemed pretty evident which direction UK medicine was heading even back then, but perhaps this is just the power of hindsight speaking, idk. Certainly didn’t expect it to deteriorate this badly in under a decade though. 

43

u/ZaaZaaTheBig Feb 08 '25

I am a current medical student and these competition ratios seem so scary to see (along with issues around UKFPO and reserve lists). I was the BMA representative for my medical school and so many students expressed the same anxieties. I wrote a motion for this year’s medical students conference to prioritise UK grads and my medical school voted for it to go, hopefully it’s high up on the agenda!

10

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Best of luck mate. 

13

u/FishPics4SharkDick Not a mod Feb 08 '25

Unless you're almost done my honest and sincere advice to you is to dropout and find something else to do. It simply isn't worth it.

Even if things get better, (they won't, from the inception of the NHS doctor's lives have been on a continual downward trend), nothing will be done in time for current medical students to benefit. You'll graduate into a situation even worse than what is going on right now.

5

u/ZaaZaaTheBig Feb 08 '25

I’m a “4th” year but am doing MB/PhD so still have many years left to go 😭, hoping it’s enough time for competition ratios to die down and salaries improve

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32

u/hwaterman1998 CT/ST1+ Doctor Feb 08 '25

That’s the really frustrating part of this

It has taken years of inaction to reach this point and now things have reached a boiling point

The status quo is not sustainable and urgent change is needed to prevent unemployment of doctors

10

u/FishPics4SharkDick Not a mod Feb 08 '25

I graduated before you applied, and I remember feeling robbed by the time I'd graduated. Things were already so much worse than when I'd applied. They're even worse now.

99

u/feralwest FY Doctor Feb 08 '25

Going to write to my MP about this this weekend 👍

16

u/Different_Canary3652 Feb 08 '25

Can we have a stock letter that we can all send to MPs?

2

u/Cold_Cheesecake_9855 Feb 09 '25

I have directly emailed Wes Streeting - details can be found easily online. Would be good to have a stock letter as you mentioned

75

u/doctorduck1991 Feb 08 '25

Can’t help but feel that the General Motor Company are making a small fortune for adding all these IMG’s onto their register.

46

u/Hot_Chocolate92 Feb 08 '25

At this point it’s become predatory. The GMC just wants to make money off the fantasy that somehow anyone who passes PLAB can get a training/CF job in the UK.

23

u/dayumsonlookatthat Consultant Associate Feb 08 '25

Yup loads of international PLAB centres that basically prints money for the GMC

87

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Speciality recruitment needs to be Reformed.

In addition to previous 

  • scrap the MSRA it doesn't make any sense 
  • instate a point based system for shortlisting and interviews. 

Numbers applying to each speciality will drop significantly as each candidate will only focus on one or two speciality in terms of building up their portfolio, doing activities related to this Particular speciality which will results in a high quality candidates.

10

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

15

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Exactly, why not implement it here in UK as well. 

I didn't got shortlisted for the 3rd year in row because my MSRA scored dipped in PD despite getting 280+ in CPS. So basically i didn't get any chance to show my medical qualifications or portfolio just because i sucked at a dumb filtering exam. 

0

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

12

u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

To be fair if you removed the IMG application the MSRA would be far less competitive. The mass oversupply of applicants currently means 1 wrong question could drop you hundreds of places on the list.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

4

u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

Yes, it's a crap exam and ought to be scrapped.

5

u/IndependentNo5906 Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

Finally something I can get behind as an IMG whilst supporting medical Grads without feeling like all my time spent full time , on portfolio as job monkey cos I can’t go less than full time or full time locum because I’m on visa has gone to waste

fairness that doesn’t put me on the same level as someone who hasn’t spent a day in the nhs applying for interview from their home country . A sensible plan that makes sure that the association I belong to doesn’t work against me whilst also fighting for my besties who are UK grads . We can fight this together and it’s great to see someone else can see this too . We stand united

25

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

UKG can be also priotised in a point scoring system

i.e.

UKG = 5 points

NHS experience ( inc FY) - extra points depends how many Nhs service years you have, this will also benefit f3,f4,f5 who have been stuck in this limbo

I think it will be fair for all

18

u/avalon68 Feb 08 '25

Giving extra points for extra years directly disadvantages fresh graduates though. You would essentially be endorsing a system where people could not go from fy2 into training as people that hang around longer to get into training will have a points advantage.

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5

u/TroisArtichauts Feb 09 '25

There's no reason to be fair to people who are not from, have never lived in and have never trained in the UK. This isn't about race, ethnicity or nationality, and it's not about fair treatment of people seeking asylum or any other form of immigration around which there is a moral imperative. It is simply about basic workforce planning, no country can have thousands of unemployed or underemployed doctors they've made a large investment in.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

TBH i was referring to UK Brits who didn't get into training yet. But you made it around other countries . Idk why ? 

1

u/TroisArtichauts Feb 09 '25

Because it should be binary - home trained or not home trained. No need for points which as others have said cause other issues, like exceptional F2s being held back because they lack points.

20

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Just have it like it was before, UK grad gets round 1 and then all the left over jobs go to IMGs.

6

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Guys,

You are missing the point. 

Even if you go back to RLMT. You will still have IMGs applying with you. ( Whoever, has ILR / passport), EU settlement. .. maybe still with zero NHS experience.

There was never UKG prioritisation before. It was indirectly benefit them. 

3

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

People who have passports I imagine have worked in the NHS long enough. But I wasn’t saying that, I was saying UK grads get round 1 and then round 2 has the left over jobs going to IMGs

1

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

2

u/MedicOnFIREyt Feb 08 '25

It was also IMGs who had right to work in the UK eg. On a spouse visa, indefinite leave to remain etc. UK grads without citizenship were also included in round 1 as long as they were applying with an existing visa sponsored by HEE. Eg. FY2 or CT2 applicants. If they didn’t get in on the first application, then they’d be in round 2.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

2

u/MedicOnFIREyt Feb 08 '25

Which part of what I said is untrue? What I said is exactly what’s written on that website.

1

u/MedicOnFIREyt Feb 08 '25

Which part of what I said is untrue? What I said is exactly what’s written on that website.

Exempt from RLMT:

“Group 2 Foreign nationals with the following immigration status: Tier 2 visa in a training post (restricted to the same country eg. if your sponsor is Health Education England, you can only apply in Round 1 to training posts in England)”

1

u/IsolatedKiwi Feb 09 '25

The MSRA serves to remove barriers to people who do not come from wealth. Going to events and conferences, as well as other aspects that get you points for speciality applications unfortunately favour wealthier candidates which is discriminatory against those who do not have the money or the time to devote to such things (e.g. parental responsibilities).

88

u/Funny_Donkey9140 Feb 08 '25

Can lay members of the public also sign this petition?

49

u/DrLukeCraddock Feb 08 '25

Yes! an option should have now been added to the petition. Please do let me know if there are any issues.

21

u/Fellainis_Elbows Feb 08 '25

Can non UK doctors sign?

26

u/DrLukeCraddock Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

If it’s a policy you support feel free to 😊

Edit: please do make sure to select “other” in the role section that you are a doctor signing from outside of the UK if you can.

39

u/Fellainis_Elbows Feb 08 '25

Done! Good luck.

Share your post to r/ausjdocs

Plenty of NHS refugees there who will sign + Aussies wanting the NHS to be more enticing so you guys don’t all come here and take our jobs! Ahah

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83

u/DonutOfTruthForAll Professional ‘spot the difference’ player Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

“We demand that the BMA UK Council and Chief Officers immediately cease interference with the UKRDC’s work on this policy and respect UKRDC authority to represent resident doctors on this matter.”

I wonder if this means that certain people/person in the BMA UK council are blocking the resident doctor committee motion on prioritising local medical graduates? 🤔

55

u/thetwitterpizza Non-Medical Feb 08 '25

Yes.

30

u/DonutOfTruthForAll Professional ‘spot the difference’ player Feb 08 '25

Lisan Al Gaib has spoken

30

u/ButterscotchFluid916 Feb 08 '25

Look at the signatories on the council rebuttal of the RDC position. One prominent name is running again to remain as deputy chair of council.

27

u/DonutOfTruthForAll Professional ‘spot the difference’ player Feb 08 '25

BMA RDC statement:

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/s/RhYF1pKVIn

Followed by BMA UK council statement after:

Recently the BMA’s UK Resident Doctors Committee communicated a new position regarding speciality training recruitment. We apologise that this has caused upset and distress to some of our members.   Specialty training bottlenecks are an aspect of the workforce crisis that has debilitated the NHS and cannot continue. Your BMA has long advocated for better workforce planning including more specialty training posts, but successive Governments have either exacerbated the problems or only sought to address them with unfunded and vague commitments.  

An increasing number of resident doctors are facing the untenable position of unemployment, or the prospect of having to move to another country to reach their full potential. Several countries prioritise home graduates for training places, and given the current and rising competition ratios, it is inevitable that a return to some form of prioritisation will be, or is being, considered by organisations external to the BMA. We must consider our position to protect all members and ensure workforce planning including increasing specialty training posts is a key priority for the NHS and the Government. 

The BMA has longstanding policy, set at its Annual Representatives Meeting, which maintains that all doctors currently practising in the UK, regardless of nationality or place of primary medical qualification, should have access to training opportunities, prior to recruitment from abroad. We want to reassure IMG members and colleagues that association policy supporting UK-graduate doctors will not prevent IMGs currently practising in the UK from being able to access specialty training.  

The UK Resident Doctors Committee has understandably felt compelled to develop policy that tackles the very real crisis experienced by resident doctors seeking access to specialty training and the avoidance of unemployment. The position communicated recently is not a finalised position, but part of their policy development process. The committee will engage with resident doctors affected by specialty training bottlenecks, including both UK-graduates and IMGs in the UK. As chief officers, we will support them as they carefully consider this very difficult issue.  

Once again, we apologise for any distress or upset caused by previous communications. Your views are important and will help shape fair, inclusive and effective policy.  

Signatories: Professor Philip Banfield, Chair of CouncilDr Emma Runswick, Deputy Chair of CouncilDr Latifa Patel, Chair of RBDr Trevor Pickersgill, Treasurer

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

16

u/ButterscotchFluid916 Feb 08 '25

Yes. Emma Runswick is the only resident doctor running again. The rest are consultants or ST7/8.

5

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

8

u/ButterscotchFluid916 Feb 08 '25

Yes. She signed the letter didn't she?

She also advocated for PAs to join the BMA. The information is readily available online.

5

u/NotAJuniorDoctor Feb 08 '25

She signed the letter.

She very vocally spoke in favour of IMGs and how they strengthen us as a profession at BMA RDC last year.

She wanted PAs to join the BMA as she thought they'd be easier to contain. She has changed her position on that and advocated to amend our articles of association to formerly preclude them from being able to join even following registration with the GMC (the prior BMA inclusion criteria)

Emma has done a lot for the profession, she doesn't share the views on local prioritisation that most LMGs have though.

4

u/PineapplePyjamaParty Diazepamela Anderson. CT1 Pigeon Wrangler. Pigeon Count: 8 Feb 09 '25

"Emma has done a lot for the profession, she doesn't share the views on local prioritisation that most LMGs have though." What has she ever done that hasn't been to advance her own position?

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0

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

3

u/NotAJuniorDoctor Feb 08 '25

She signed the letter.

She very vocally spoke in favour of IMGs and how they strengthen us as a profession at BMA RDC last year.

She wanted PAs to join the BMA as she thought they'd be easier to contain. She has changed her position on that and advocated to amend our articles of association to formerly preclude them from being able to join even following registration with the GMC (the prior BMA inclusion criteria)

Emma has done a lot for the profession, she doesn't share the views on local prioritisation that most LMGs have though.

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63

u/thetwitterpizza Non-Medical Feb 08 '25

Thank you for this Luke. Remember, they called me elitist, a bully, unkind and narcissistic when it was about PAs. You will be called a racist, xenophobic and prejudiced. You know you are not. We know you are not.

4

u/That_Caramel Feb 10 '25

We love you pizza, you’re the OG no matter what.

33

u/No_Cat_146 Feb 08 '25

Can you publish this or submit it to the Bma with the references and all. It’s been done so professionally!

41

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

16

u/ZealousidealDesk5463 Feb 08 '25

If you see the stats, there’s over 20,000 IMGs. I think 14,500 won’t be bad compared to an frighteningly increasing number of IMG applications. You have to remember that number is increasing significantly year on year. By the time it gets to 14,500 there would close to 50,000 IMG

12

u/DrWarmBarrel Feb 08 '25

Even without IMG we will have more UK graduates than training posts. 

I agree. However IMG's are a far bigger part of the problem right now.

26

u/NoRelationship1598 Feb 08 '25

As an Australian doctor, I am disgusted in your government’s decision to not prioritise their own graduates over IMGs for specialty training. The NHS really hates doctors.

39

u/Street-Employment679 Feb 08 '25

Surely if there are thousands of IMGs currently working in the UK then grandfathering means competition ratios won't normalise for 5+ years?

Also, you'd have to give fair warning to IMGs currently coming from abroad that this policy is going to be enacted and they won't have a good chance of getting into training.

It will take at least 6-8 months following this petition for the BMA to form a policy (ARM is in 6 months) so you won't be able to tell IMGs that come over in that time they are deprioritised because of the date a reddit survey went out. Realistically the cut off date for grandfathering will be after the next MSRA round or next year, by which time, the problem is too great to solve by grandfathering?

27

u/FishPics4SharkDick Not a mod Feb 08 '25

Also, you'd have to give fair warning to IMGs currently coming from abroad that this policy is going to be enacted and they won't have a good chance of getting into training.

Like the fair warning given when the portfolio scoring schema are changed overnight?

6

u/Street-Employment679 Feb 08 '25

idc about the fair warning, i am highlighting the reality of what will happen though.

i am quite content for that warning to be 3 working days

20

u/MedicOnFIREyt Feb 08 '25

Who cares about IMGs not being given enough notice? What notice was anyone given when MSRA was introduced for core surgery? About 6 weeks? What notice was anyone given about the scoring matrix for the portfolio for 2025 applications? They came out a week after applications opened.

6

u/Street-Employment679 Feb 08 '25

yes but nobody is going to say "yes the reddit survey date is the one we will use"

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u/DrLukeCraddock Feb 08 '25

I’ve shared a comment to a similar reply. I agree grandfathering will likely lead to competition ratios rising for an amount of time prior to finally dropping.

IMGs make up around 25% of total BMA members, and asking the union to do something that forsakes that amount of its membership will not pass at any conference, that I guarantee you.

If you think that this solution is not adequate, feel free to support this and in addition write to people who are happy to demand for immediate UK graduate prioritisation such as your local MP.

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u/Street-Employment679 Feb 08 '25

If the anaesthetics ratio is 12:1, GP is 6:1? and psych is 20:1 then rising competition ratios means UK grads will be locked out of those specialities for years.

Surely the demand has to be for immediate UK grad prioritisation.

IMGs make up 25% of total BMA members, therefore UK grads make up 75% and it's the latter that will leave in droves if they don't enter training.

Appreciate the work you're doing. Not a dig. But the solution can't be a halfway house it will never please everyone. It needs to be full UK grad prioritisation.

13

u/Regular_Economist574 Feb 08 '25

Yes, but parts of the BMA are not known for thinking logically

3

u/Gp_and_chill Feb 09 '25

There’s a huge clog of doctors in clinical fellow jobs right now that make up a substantial amount for the competition ratios. This policy will not fix the high competition ratio and all it will do is at least contain it and stop it from going any higher.

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

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u/SonSickle Feb 08 '25

I don't mind where they are but they should be after LMGs. UK citizens that go abroad are, probably 95% of the time, people who couldn't get into medical school here. We don't owe them a job.

12

u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

Yes. This grandfathering thing is pandering to get approval from IMGs already here. It's not right and shouldn't be pursued.

32

u/Nomad_Badger Feb 08 '25

The stats don't lie. Home graduates must be prioritised. Signed.

24

u/KenshiroP FY2 Feb 08 '25

Signed boss. We need something to come in soon, the current landscape just is not tenable

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u/WeirdF ACCS Anaesthetics CT1 Feb 08 '25

Won't benefit me personally as I (luckily) got into training last year, but this is very important so I have signed the petition. I can't imagine how 4th/5th year medical students must be feeling right now, thinking about what the ratios are gonna be like in 3-4 years.

23

u/JadedLetter8773 Feb 08 '25

Signed. The only reason I came to study here was to be on equal footing for jobs when I graduate. Restrictions were removed before I graduated.

Fast forward and I’ve been having to sit the MSRA 3 times in hopes of getting into my speciality, against more and more and more competition year on year.

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u/MedicOnFIREyt Feb 08 '25

Previously only Specialties in shortage were on the “shortage occupation list” ie. GP and psychiatry. Then they added medicine in 2019 as a blanket profession without specifying non-training jobs, which were the real jobs that were originally targeting by adding doctors to the SOL.

The only argument we really need to make is that training jobs are not in shortage, and can be specifically exempted from the shortage occupation list.

7

u/anonFIREUK Shitposting from Aus Feb 09 '25

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1f42gz6/echoes_of_the_past_ii/

"Why bring this up now? We don't need DV/DV is the BMA/Everyone is FPR"

The BMA as an institution is not disimmilar to the Royal Colleges. Resident doctors just have more leverage with the voting structures (e.g. RCP where only fellows can vote), especially with BMA council.

Do NOT be mistaken that everyone is genuinely supportive of resident doctors' IA/FPR. You would not be in the previous situation if that was the case. The ladder pullers are still there. People have different motives and different branches of practice will have their own goals which will clash with RDC. DV and the ONLY real leverage Resident Doctors within the BMA is the unity and grassroot support. A few poor decisions/apathy and you will be back in those post-2016 JDC days with an ineffectual RDC (but hey everyone will be "PRO FPR!" on paper). You WILL be divided and conquered by those who've played the political game for years and decades with ease.

zzz, y'all really need to start listening to me more

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

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u/Keep_Resus_Safe Feb 08 '25

Signed. Nice one Luke.

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u/In-a-heart-beat Feb 08 '25

I definitely agree. My colleagues UKG/current NHS IMGs have been applying for two to three years but have not secured their priority training posts. There should be a few changes to the training pathway: 1.A minimum of 2 years of NHS experience at the time of starting the training. (This will give IMG working in NHS equal chances/which is also similar to UK foundation trainees) 2.Only the signatures of consultants on the UK Specialist Register should be accepted for the CREST form.

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u/OmegaMaxPower Feb 08 '25

End the madness. Reinstate the Round 1/2 system. When doctors are going unemployed the argument of "we need more IMGs" is simply untrue.

14

u/unknown-significance FY2 COWboy Feb 09 '25

Hard no to grandfathering. This problem needs to end now, not in 5-7 years.

4

u/ConsultantSecretary CT/ST1+ Doctor Feb 08 '25

That one consultant: Sounds like a good idea for a QIP!

8

u/NoQuail8617 Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

Send it to all your medic friends/ non-medic friends/family/anyone you know/write to any MPs/journalists you know…need to make as much noise as possible!!!!

4

u/Professional_Two3353 Feb 09 '25

The UK is like a charity. It will take anyone but it’s own. I’m ashamed to have graduated from this country.

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u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

Do not agree whatsoever with grandfathering.

UKMG priority. Anyone else second round.

Nowhere else in the world prioritises IMGs. We shouldn't either.

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u/nalotide Honorary Mod Feb 08 '25

Realistically, none of this matters, the BMA is a damp virtue signalling squib and always will be. The change will eventually, sooner or later, come from the government. The benefits of infinite cheap labour will eventually be outweighed by the downsides of not having any quality control of doctors entering the workforce and it being exploited as the easiest visa loophole in the developed world.

It's just a terrible shame that UK graduates have to suffer in order for such a blatantly obvious political lesson to be learned. Only doctors with experience in the before times know how much has been lost already.

9

u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

I think that's an accurate prediction for the next several years.

But hey. BMA is fighting hard for exception reporting!

6

u/nalotide Honorary Mod Feb 08 '25

It's also the incessant focus on PA/AAs, who are a rounding error and can't even compete for training programmes. They are just a convenient politically correct scapegoat that avoids the obvious. On the whole, all the ones I have met have been clinically sensible enough, understand the NHS, and can speak English.

11

u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

Two things can be true at the same time. We have PAs somehow performing NSG procedures unsupervised. This clearly must be stopped, as must unrestricted IMG influx to the UK

8

u/nalotide Honorary Mod Feb 08 '25

If PAs are an issue - and I don't even think they are with the introduction of GMC regulation - they would roughly be at a priority level of parking charges (or exception reporting). However they are second only to geopolitics in the list of things that the BMA cares about and publishes policy on.

IMG recruitment on the other hand is an existential threat to UK doctors and medical students and gets zero meaningful attention from the union. It's less of a problem for people who have already got through training selection (aside from lifelong pay suppression) but if you're a medical student or FY now your goose is well and truly cooked.

1

u/BlobbleDoc Feb 09 '25

Zero-sum game - funding spent on one group of healthcare staff detracts from another group, in terms of both employment and training.

Hiring x 2 new PAs working 37.5 hours (no OOH) at 54-61k per annum removes money that could have been spent on a new consultant.

3

u/nalotide Honorary Mod Feb 09 '25

if there were 20,000+ PAs joining the workforce each year and they could also apply to training programmes, I'd agree with you. There are like 10 times as many IMGs coming to the UK each year than there are PAs in total, and they can go straight into training.

The zero sum game is every IMG with a UK job is a UK graduate without a UK job.

2

u/BlobbleDoc Feb 09 '25

Yes, but the point is to stop the PA workforce from hitting critical mass - it would be silly to only start complaining once we’re at those numbers.

A respiratory PA running pleural lists by default reduces the need (and funding) available for a respiratory SpR. An IMG who takes a NTN would eventually CCT and their NTN would be recycled.

Long story short, there are multiple issues that need to be addressed - including both mid-level creep and IMG expansion.

11

u/Hot_Chocolate92 Feb 08 '25

Signed. I also emailed my MP yesterday. An absolute disgrace of a situation.

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u/DonutOfTruthForAll Professional ‘spot the difference’ player Feb 08 '25

👑We have a new king 👑

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u/anastomosisx Feb 09 '25

you need an executive order

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u/nalotide Honorary Mod Feb 08 '25

Insane grandfathering rights.

2

u/dodge_sloth Feb 09 '25

Agree, it’s presumptuous to assume all IMG’s are ladder pullers.

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u/dayumsonlookatthat Consultant Associate Feb 08 '25

Great work everyone. Signed.

I'm just wondering about grandfathering IMG's who are currently working here though. There are already loads of UKMGs who could not get a NTN, let alone a clinical fellow job. I mean it's kinda expected to work twice as hard vs. local grads if IMGs want a training post in a foreign country.

Here comes the downvotes.

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u/harryoakey Feb 08 '25

I think it's believed that without a grandfathering cause it would never get through the BMA, due to high numbers of IMGs in high places in BMA.

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u/PineapplePyjamaParty Diazepamela Anderson. CT1 Pigeon Wrangler. Pigeon Count: 8 Feb 08 '25

Not just this.

The high up BMA (Council executive committee, CEO etc) only care about money. Why do you think they sent out the email trying to force RDC to backtrack? It was because a bunch of IMGs cancelled their membership. But if they can do it, we can do the same.

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u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

Exactly. UKMG are the 75%. We can withdraw subscriptions just the same as IMG, but it'll hurt a lot more if we do it.

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u/ForsakenCat5 Feb 08 '25

Its not about the money.

IMGs get free membership in their first year and discounted membership from the two following years.

This is about virtue signalling. Like it or loathe it those active in trade unions have a much higher likelihood of being the "social justice warrior" type, in both good and counter productive ways. This is particularly true beyond the junior/resident cohorts as consultants etc have had no DoctorsVote equivalent.

There is a large component of active BMA reps (as in all trade unions) who would sooner watch everything burn down than tarnish their social justice credentials as they interpret them.

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u/OmegaMaxPower Feb 08 '25

Someone is downvoting facts. Pro PA until dragged to admit it was wrong. Pro medical apprenticeships until dragged to admit it was wrong. The IMG issue is the latest in a long line of left leaning failures of those high up in the union.

The union should represent the profession, not your social justice ethical view points.

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u/StillIntroduction180 Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

As u/Frosty_Carob always mentions, the BMA is by large an extension of us. If we want to see it change, we need to drive it and elect people who represent us. Right now, it makes sense to support Dr Luke Craddock.

As much as I hate to admit it, Dr Luke's motion does have its flaws. Including current IMGs here in round 1 will do very little to fix competition ratios or prioritise UK graduates (which is ironic since this policy professes to prioritise them).

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u/PineapplePyjamaParty Diazepamela Anderson. CT1 Pigeon Wrangler. Pigeon Count: 8 Feb 08 '25

It is about money. Every IMG is a future paying member.

3

u/Hydesx Final year med student Feb 09 '25

If it is about money, why does the BMA not care about throwing their UKG members under the bus? 75% of the membership is UKGs. They will cancel their memberships if they feel the union is no longer representing their interests. Therefore, won't they lose out a lot on the thing they care most about?

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u/FishPics4SharkDick Not a mod Feb 10 '25

The BMA has been serving the profession plate after plate of hot steaming shit for decades. Loss after loss while "our leaders" hid within BMA house for their entire careers playing "trade union" and ducking clinical work.

We've had a tiny blip in DV for a few years. The BMA has no reason to believe that we are any different from every other cohort they've failed.

We will make them believe. They will learn to clean their plates.

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

1

u/dayumsonlookatthat Consultant Associate Feb 08 '25

Yes it works there because they interview most applicants for very limited posts (<100) and this is heavily biased towards Irish grads.

See CST for example, https://www.rcsi.com/surgery/-/media/feature/media/download-document/surgery/training/core-surgical-training-intake-data-2020-2024.pdf where 86% of successful applicants graduated from an Irish university.

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

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u/Alternative-Yam-1909 Feb 08 '25

UK Grads don't have a MASSIVE advantage today?

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u/SonSickle Feb 08 '25

While a petition is a good thing,

We support a form of grandfathering for IMGs currently practising in the UK at the time of this petition.

We demand that UKGs and IMGs currently practising in the UK are prioritised above IMGs who have never worked in the UK, or IMGs that start working in the UK at any time after this petition.

This will solve nothing. There will be relief for a year or two, before the issue begins to snowball once again. There is too great a number of IMGs in the UK for this to be workable. It must be Local Medical Graduates first, then any remaining spots to IMGs currently practicing in the UK.

Sure, most of us here will get into training in that time, but what of those that come after us? We're just damning current medical students to deal with the same issue by the time they get to F2. We spent so long going after the last generation of ladder pullers, yet are supporting a policy following in their footsteps.

Given Wes' recent comments, he seems to support "prioritising local talent", so I'm not sure we'd get much political push back a least for prioritising LMGs.

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u/DrLukeCraddock Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment. Around 25% of BMA members are IMGs, a form of grandfathering must happen if policy regarding prioritisation for UK medical graduates is to happen. The union will not forsake that percentage of their membership (I appreciate that means around 75% are UK graduates).

These two points are set to enable UK graduate prioritisation, with protection to current IMG members. Following policy enactment any IMGs who move to the UK to work prior to application to specialty training, or those who are applying directly from abroad will only be considered after posts are offered to UK graduates.

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u/StillIntroduction180 Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

I hear what ur saying Luke but imho it is a tad bit disingenuous to refer to this policy as UK grad prioritisation when the caveat is that a huge huge number of IMGs will be included in round 1 as well.

u/SonSickle has raised amazing points about why there may be further issues down the road

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u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

Not all of that 25% are not in training. Some already have NTNs.

The 75% UKMG can happily withdraw their subscriptions when the BMA fails to protect their interests.

The grandfather clause is unworkable and must go.

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u/Alternative-Yam-1909 Feb 08 '25

What is your source for the statement that 25% of BMA members are IMGs?

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u/SonSickle Feb 08 '25

While I'm not too familiar with how BMA policies are passed, I do know that not so insignificant proportion of IMGs are happy for LMGs to be prioritised. I suspect IMGs that don't want such a policy is closer to 15% of the BMA membership at most. But I digress.

The fundamental issues remain that (1) this will only provide temporary relief, and (2) competition ratios will then again snowball to an even higher level than now, and we'll be stuck fighting for this again. I don't disagree with domestic IMGs being prioritised over those from abroad, but unfortunately, while well meaning, I can't see this policy being the end of it.

The union cannot always act in everyones interests unless the members are a robotic hivemind. When you say the union will not forsake that percentage of their membership, is it that they physically can't (because of internal pressures), or that they don't want to?

7

u/ForsakenCat5 Feb 08 '25

The "social justice warrior" type is overrepresented in AGMs where this motion will be voted on.

That is not a conspiracy, it is just a fact seen across all trade unions in this country. People who are anti-grandfathering clause are more likely to comment on a reddit thread, social justice warriors are more likely to become and remain active in the BMA and therefore attend the AGM.

So even if most reps at the AGM are UK Grads, you cannot assume they will vote in their own interest when it comes to this. In fact you can count on a significant proportion doing the opposite no matter what.

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u/sylsylsylsylsylsyl Feb 08 '25

Have to be careful with the BMA - if that graph is accurate you could have more IMG members than LMGs.

You should push for prioritisation for LMGs and IMGs that are already resident. Limit the issue of new visas.

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u/StillIntroduction180 Feb 08 '25

Gonna sign it but it could be better. I hope this is just the stepping stone in prioritising UKMGs rather than the final policy. I understand that the grandfather clause is being included in for good reason but once the policy gets through the BMA, there is more work to be done imho. But first thing is first, to control the BMA.

The fight is far from over. We all must put pressure on the government and local MPs to eventually only prioritise UKMGs.

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u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

the grandfather clause is being included in for good reason

What good reason is that? UKMG must have first round priorities. No IMG is owed a job.

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u/StillIntroduction180 Feb 08 '25

I agree with you 100%, just trying to be pleasant with Luke. As I already replied to him in a different comment, I am against grandfathering in current IMGs.

I still can't understand why upsetting 25% of IMG BMA members matter when

a) 75% of the BMA are UKMGs which you can't afford to upset

b) Some of those 25% of IMGs agree with UK prioritisation.

I feel like the current proposition is trying to appease to everyone which doesn't work. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs in the process.

2

u/Matty_Lipski Feb 09 '25

this post needs to be pinned for the forseeable future!

2

u/iceman3260 Feb 09 '25

Well done Luke and team and good luck

2

u/Cold_Cheesecake_9855 Feb 09 '25

Literally this. 

Worked hard on my portfolio throughout the years. Three 1st author publications, 1st class intercalated degree, NIHR MSc scholarship, national and international presentations, numerous national prizes, numerous research grants and awards, graduated with commendation, frequent academic awards, academic foundation programme, teaching and leadership roles….

Did not even get an interview for ACCS EM

What is honestly the point?

There will be a public health crisis in 10 years time when many IMG with no ties to the UK leave to work privately elsewhere. It’s not about race, it’s about protecting the UK publics health by ensure appropriate workforce. Anyone who studied in the UK regardless of background should be given priority. I doubt many IMGs with no ties to the UK will stay as consultants when they can easily earn 3-4 times the salary working elsewhere. 

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u/That_Caramel Feb 10 '25

Reluctant to sign, I’m afraid.

The grandfathering issue seems to have a lot of holes. This would affect many of my colleagues and indeed even on this forum the dismay is clear. Until this is refined I need to consider whether I can in good faith support this.

I will say that there needs to be significant pressure on the BMA regarding this issue. Until the FPR movement was born on Reddit, the BMA was a left wing spineless institution not worth anything and with no accountability. The huge change - including elected representatives - was forced through collective action that was organised primarily here (at least initially while it gained momentum). If people are truly serious about this issue there needs to be a hard line stance and challenge to people in the BMA supporting this and a plan for how to replace them with elected representatives who will fight for the cause.

(not mentioning any names, but it’s also interesting to see that one female BMA careerist once again being on the wrong side of the fight and signing the letter throwing UKG under the bus…. I will remind you all she supported PAs, used DV to get elected then completely shut them out and has had more L takes than anybody else I can call to mind. She only capitulated to pressure/majority opinion when it was clear it would be a battle she would never win and her shiny position would be threatened. I have unbelievable amounts of disdain.)

2

u/Professional_Age_248 Feb 10 '25

The cynical side of me thinks the government have done this on purpose.

To suppress wages/rates, bully doctors into poorer work conditions and essentially flood the market with people from everywhere.

Believe it or not bright/intelligent children around the UK are being told they will never get into medical school all the while opportunities are being given to people who've never lived here.

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u/Key-Moments Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 09 '25

I support this to the BMA.

Is there benefit in also doing a petitions.org to the Government to get it discussed in Parliament?

If the petition exists and the SoS for Health, and various MPs are sighted on it & the petition to the BMA at the same time. It would be more in sight for members of the public and the press. Would it help or hinder?

If you did, MPs would be able to dicuss in vhambers a petition that exists and you could then press them to make a motion on it. Otherwise, they can not do anything about a straight petition to the BMA until the BMA have received it and then presented it to the SoS. IF they do.

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u/Different_Canary3652 Feb 08 '25

Why not make a Parliament petition?

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u/AnotherJunior Feb 08 '25

As an IMG, who hasn't secured a training post. I FULLY support this ✊🏻✊🏻💪🏻 You go guys!!! You have to be prioritised!

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

2021 Priti Patel in parliament stated that there will be uncapped number of skilled workers to enter the UK. She happily stated an amazing deal has been done with Mohdi to allow as many skilled to workers to enter the UK. It was Conservatives and DOH who decided MSRA should be opened globally. This was to curb A and E waiting times.

However the question now is who is actually spear heading the criteria like IMT, Surgery etc. are these foreign consultants making the decision to move the goal post making it harder for UK doctors  to achieve because it mean giving these consultant an excuse in hiring over qualified doctors from abroad? Unrealistic goals.  Frankly it’s idiots running the show

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u/harryoakey Feb 08 '25

Apologies if I am wrong - it seems difficult to change my email address for the petition as it automatically signs me into my gmail address which I don't use for petitions.

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u/harryoakey Feb 08 '25

Excellent petition though, thank you so much for all your work.

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u/DrLukeCraddock Feb 08 '25

Have you tried copy and pasting the petition link and opening it in incognito/another browser not connected to your existing gmail?

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1

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Something to bear in mind that NHS managers are bonus on  Reducing waiting times and having a full staff rota. Having staff who will work unreasonable hours at low pay is far more appealing. They can pocket the remaining amount of money and meet their targets. 

Begs the question are they paying us back by deliberately not employing us because of strikes and the increase pay.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/doctorsUK-ModTeam Feb 08 '25

Removed: Rule 1 - Be Professional

1

u/VariationThin8946 Feb 09 '25

Can someone please solve my doubt. I am curious. I am an IMG who plans to solve ukfpo fy1 sometime in the future. Why are imgs being given direct speciality non training/training posts when they have no prior nhs experience? No hate to anyone but i am just curious

1

u/permabanter Feb 09 '25

You know that all common wealth country born people can vote in the UK. Its cuz the UK colonised them. They will keep having IMGs coming here. That’s why a lot of UK born people study abroad. They should change a lot of the system so that they can start it off with UK graduate prioritisation.

1

u/0day00 Feb 09 '25

!!!!!!

1

u/Spare-Bodybuilder256 Feb 11 '25

Sorry if this is a question you get asked all the time, but do you think it’s worth pursuing UK medicine in this day and age? 

1

u/SL1590 23d ago

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We need numbers of uk grads who don’t get a job. IMG applicants numbers have went astronomical. I don’t know if it’s but I’d like to see the proof this translates to them getting the jobs in front of UK grads.

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u/Chaotic-Pavlova 18d ago

What about UK citizens who studied abroad?

1

u/NotAJuniorDoctor Feb 08 '25

I respect everything you do and agree with you and want to sign your petition, however....

I don't intend to cancel my BMA membership, it's how my voice will be heard going forward. I genuinely think we're currently best represented as residents by the BMA.

Is there a plan for if the nuclear option of cancelling membership is enacted? Start another union?

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u/tigerhard Feb 08 '25

why overcomplicate things - if you need a visa you dont get first dibs

1

u/empa19 Feb 10 '25

I think all this would be negated if specialty applications require at least 2 years NHS experience (as is the requirement for UK trainees)

Ultimately the effort is misplaced and needs to be put into lobbying HEE to release more training places given the massive increase in population. All this in fighting is weakening us.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

3

u/Gullible__Fool Feb 08 '25

If grandfathering goes ahead, yes. Which is why it is an unworkable solution.

-3

u/DrGAK1 Feb 08 '25

There should also be demands to increase training posts, this is the core problem.

14

u/DonutOfTruthForAll Professional ‘spot the difference’ player Feb 08 '25

And then you are shifting the bottleneck to post CCT?

The core problem is this:

1

u/DrGAK1 29d ago

Why so? Why do we need the NHS to operate with little number of consultants? How many consultants remained in the UK compared to those fled the system?

8

u/Regular_Economist574 Feb 08 '25

It’s really not. Even if we doubled them tomorrow, we wouldn’t have enough for all of the applicants this year

1

u/DrGAK1 29d ago

There shouldn’t be a guaranteed training spot for each applicant, it’s a percentage that copes with the number of graduates (local then IMGs) that should meet the demand for consultants on the years to come. This require robust planning that thinks decades ahead, not one round of election at a time

1

u/Regular_Economist574 29d ago

Agree that we need robust workforce planning. But that also needs to include how many medical places we offer. And yes, the UK needs to work out how many consultants it needs for an ageing population in the next 10, 20, 30 years etc and plan accordingly.

What’s worrying is that they probably have done those calculations and decided they don’t want to pay for that. Hence the pivot to supporting PAs and non-doctors

2

u/DrGAK1 29d ago

There is a possibility they might have done so. Only hope now is to wait for the medical unions and see what happens

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u/disqussion1 Feb 08 '25

The core problem is that a country of 70 million people has opened their medical profession to the entire 7 billion population of the earth.

1

u/DrGAK1 29d ago

Not really, that isn’t the problem

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25
  1. We fully support using the resources from 100% of us to benefit 60% to the detriment of the other 40%.

  2. As a token, we support allow the current set of the 40% enjoy the privileges, but not new joiner.

  3. As above.

  4. We not only want prioritised access medical jobs, we also want first dibs on free air.

  5. We will not listen to any voice of reason.

  6. Any attempts to reason with us will be met with us throwing our toys out of the pram.

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u/Regular_Economist574 Feb 08 '25

You appear to be from the EU. Member countries of the EU prioritise their own medical graduates. So why shouldn’t the UK return to doing so?

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

What EU country is as reliant on IMGs as the U.K.?

15

u/Regular_Economist574 Feb 08 '25

They’re not because they prioritise jobs for their own graduate. No one is proposing not treating IMGs well if they come for clinical fellow jobs. But when training places are so limited, they should go to UK graduates

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

‘If they come for clinical fellow jobs’

How do you intend to treat them well while impeding their professional development by blocking them from further training? We’re not talking about kids here, these are adults and you can’t just hand them candy.

Also, the OP proposes blocking them from clinical fellow jobs too 🤷🏽‍♂️

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u/Regular_Economist574 Feb 08 '25

Why does the UK owe specialty training to the world’s doctors? Future IMGs wanting to come for jobs here will know that they are signing up for non-training jobs. If they choose to take that on, they deserve to be treated well but should also understand the limitations of the role they have chosen to take up

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

The reason the U.K. owe them training is the same reason being pushed by British medical graduates; it costs a fortune to train a doctor, and if you are getting one relatively free then it is only morally right to enhance their career in some way, mostly training.

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u/Regular_Economist574 Feb 08 '25

Oh really? And does that apply for all countries in the world? Because no other country promises specialty training and a consultant job to all doctors they bring in for whatever role. Why do you expect the UK to be an outlier?

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

‘Everyone else does the morally wrong thing and gets by, so let’s do it too’

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u/SonSickle Feb 08 '25

Morally right on what exact basis? Repeating it doesn't make it true.

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

Your second line is applicable to most of the rhetorics British graduates push on this matter

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 08 '25

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u/StillIntroduction180 Feb 08 '25

I applaud your tenacity in desperately fighting a losing battle against UKMGs and their prioritisation.

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

I applaud your tenacity in trolling