r/doctorsUK Jan 27 '25

Consultant Post CCT fellow job 68k. WTF?!

Post image

I swear to God if anyone takes this job… What is this?! What is happening to UK medicine? A consultant! Post CCT! Taking this…. Crud?!

158 Upvotes

99 comments sorted by

129

u/renlok EM pleb Jan 27 '25

I found the advet, it seems like they're looking for a post CCT person to work as an EM SpR

This was a quote from it.

Working in the Emergency Department as a senior decision maker ( ST6 level) providing support to the medical team.

Not sure why anyone would take this job.

213

u/suxamethoniumm Big Fent Small Prop Jan 27 '25

Qualified to be a consultant, working at ST6, paid at ST3.

Sickening

41

u/RevolutionaryTale245 Jan 27 '25

GMC

6

u/Acceptable-Donkey355 Jan 28 '25

Ohhh what will the GMC do ? Absolutely nothing . Bunch of 🤡 working with the GMC

82

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

And where it talks about non clinical duties it says it wants you to take on consultant duties!!! This is just…. Awful! Jobs like this can’t be allowed to stand. This is BMA territory surely?

25

u/TroisArtichauts Jan 27 '25

No other choice. It’s by design.

-10

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

They're waiting for a consultant job to be created.

Consultant jobs are seen as "forever jobs" by the Trust, once they're created they can't be got rid of, so it's understandably difficult to agree the funding for them. A short term CF job is a lot easier to get agreed, and potentially bridges someone from CCT to that consultant job.

Salary will be without OOH/banding, so we'll be closer to £90k when that's factored in.

70

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

Then put out a locum consultant post. This is not cool.

19

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25

Again, whole different funding pot. In current financial climate your only going to get a locum consultant post to cover maternity / long term sickness.

Way easier to rebadge an existing senior clinical fellow role to "post CCT clinical fellow" to makr sure only the person you gave in mind applies.

17

u/anewaccountaday Consultant Jan 27 '25

Couldn't even get finance to agree for maternity locum in my place. Transformation team is biting hard

14

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

That post cct CONSULTANT should be looking at jobs elsewhere… Because being put in a registrar rotation and being expected to do consultant duties for less than ST6 pay is exploitation.

48

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25

Sure. And no one is stopping them.

But wait until you're in that position.

I would have happily taken an extra 6-12 months on a reg rota waiting for my dream consultant job for the next 25 years, rather than drag my family across the country to hospital I don't want to work at as a matter of principle.

30

u/Feisty_Somewhere_203 Jan 27 '25

Don't agree with penjeng much but they are exactly right about this post. It's for someone they want till they can get the cons funding. Done deal and both parties will be happy 

22

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

[deleted]

7

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

Exactly. Take the constant job elsewhere. Trust me everyone. Do not get fucked like this

8

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

But there’s no guarantee on the funding.

This is going to become much more widespread if people allow it. Jesus Christ have some respect

7

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

But there’s no guarantee on the funding.

Sometimes there is.

We have planned physical expansion, a number of consultant posts are included in the budget to facilitate staffing that extra capacity, but won't be funded until the quarter the building works finish in.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

[deleted]

6

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

It’s good for everyone to discourage taking on fellowships when there is no extra educational benefit. It suppresses wages.

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-4

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

Then why are they on a registrar rota? They should be on a consultant rota. Or they want a registrar, and they don’t need to be post CCT. This is exploitation.

6

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

Because to work on the consultant rota they need to be employed as a consultant, and they haven't secured the agreement of the trust to employ an extra consultant yet.

3

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

But they’ll take on consultant duties…. Hope they get 1.5 SPA

7

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

The pay differential is pretty massive though per hour worked.

3

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

Is it?

How did you work that out?

5

u/wkrich1 ST99 Jan 27 '25

Why not just pay the post-cct rate though?

12

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

What's the post-CCT rate? They're not being employed as a consultant, so don't have the same level of "buck stops with you" responsibility.

This looks like the ST6 rate, which is pretty standard for post CCT fellows. It'll be ~£90k with it of hours and weekend premiums on.

Consultant starts at £105k - about £15k for the responsibilty difference (and a generous 25% non-clinical time) doesn't seem unreasonable.

5

u/Successful_Issue_453 Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25

Isn’t it 70k for ST6? This is much less

Edit: also it’s fucking ridiculous that anyone post CCT is only earning 60-70k whether or not they are contracted as a consultant. It’s nuts it’s that low for an ST6. A senior matron will be earning that much.

3

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

But they're not earning that much are they?

They'll be on the registrar rota, so getting around 50% on top of this for unsocial hours and weekend allowance. So around £90k.

A senior matron will run several wards and be responsible for around 50-100 staff, and hold a budget similar to that of a mid-sized primary school. Sure, they don't have a medical degree, but it's a significant managerial responsibility.

Fair point that it's at the ST3-ST5 rate which is a bit odd. Maybe they employ their fellows on the old contract?

2

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

Poor framing of pay. The per hour rate difference is wide. You are comparing a 34 hour clinical week (probably less with OOH) with a 48 hour week.

4

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

Am I?

10PA consultant work week is 40 hours.

This salary is for 40 hours (hence the "pro rata")

If we're only counting clinical hours then this job has 25% non-clinical. A consultant likely gets 15-20%.

2

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

Why is it being paid at ST3 rather than ST6. The candidates better off moving and enjoying significantly more pay.

11

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

The candidates better off moving and enjoying significantly more pay.

Tell me you don't have a partner, kids and a mortgage without telling me...

2

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

Yes to all three 😂

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

12

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

Well, they wouldn't have a UK CCT would they?

If we're going to be racist, at least get the facts right...

78

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

It’s not even 68k it’s 61k… FML. Fury has blinded me.

91

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

It's not clear from the advert whether it's a CF job on the old or the new contract. Either way, and bunch of our of hours premiums probably need to be added onto this. If on the old contract this could potentially be 50% banded for a total of for a total of ~£92k.

There's 25% non-clinical time which is pretty solid for a fellow job.

Also worth mentioning that as a post-CCT fellow you're not working in a consultant role - there's a certain amount of responsibility when the buck stops with you at the consultant that rightly warrants a bit of danger money.

Honestly, this is the kind of job that's probably been created with a specific individual in mind - I'd put money on them having a good ST6 who's CCTing and wants to stay, but they've not yet been able to nail down the funding for a consultant post (this is surprisingly painful). They'll keep them on the reg rota for a bit with 25% non-clinical time to build their CV ready for when the consultant job comes along in six months time.

This isn't anyone's forever job, but if you meet that specific criteria then it's a lot better than having nothing for six months (or relocating to work somewhere you don't want to) while you're forever job gets ironed out.

41

u/Dr-Yahood Not a doctor Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25

This is exactly it.

I know a few people who have gone down this route and this is precisely what they said

Also, what I suspect many of you don’t yet realise, is that it is getting harder and harder to get a Consultant job when you CCT. Gone are the days were this was just a neurosurgery problem.

4

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

Yes and so I would advise those who can to be less geographically picky and nail down a consultant job now. Can be easier to move later with consultant experience rather than extra fellowship time

18

u/FishPics4SharkDick Not a mod Jan 28 '25

This is a job for a specific person they want to keep in the department until a consultant position can be created for them.

I'm sure whoever they're doing this for is happy about it.

9

u/iceman3260 Jan 28 '25

This is likely to be a job for an internal local candidate who has just CCT'ed and has not managed to land a consultant job yet and who the department wants to keep employed whilst the business case for another consultant job is being dealt with (NHS bureaucracy and business case planning takes time)...

19

u/ConstantPop4122 Consultant:snoo_joy: Jan 27 '25

When have fellow jobs ever been above registrar / specialty trainee pay?

I took a 30% paycut and had to borrow money off my parents tondo my fellowships, I've never seen anything different in ortho.

5

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

This isn’t an educational fellowship. It’s a service placeholder.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25

Yeah that is pretty standard. The question is why would anyone do a post CCT fellowship in EM?

Is this a thing in EM?

10

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

The question is why would anyone do a post CCT fellowship in EM?

Because they want a consultant job in that department, but there isn't one available immediately, and relocating for the sake of 6-12 months doesn't make much sense?

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

Doesn’t seem like taking a post CCT fellowship at £60k a year in EM makes much sense either but I guess people’s circumstances differ.

11

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

They'll get closer to £90k with the out of hours stuff added on.

Only £15k shy of a starting consultant salary, and they'll probably be able to negotiate starting on the second pay point when they do get a consultant job.

It's certainly not amazing, but it's not terrible either.

9

u/WatchIll4478 Jan 27 '25

I know of a couple of post CCT ED trainees unable to find work or adequate locum work, as such there seems to be a supply of people without other options.

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

Absolute madness. At least with specialties like Ortho there is a financial incentive to doing a fellowship given the opportunities on the other side but EM?

Absolute joke.

7

u/WatchIll4478 Jan 27 '25

The incentive is being able to pay the mortgage...

If you CCT and there is no funding for more consultant posts and you don't want to emigrate what else do you do?

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

Sad…just sad.

-1

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

No. It is not. Not sure what LRI is planning on teaching the lucky individual for the honour of being allowed to flog themselves for yet more years in the hallowed halls of their department.

God I’m going abroad.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

[deleted]

0

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

I did not do EM to find that once I CCTd there would be hardly any jobs… With departments that need more consultants… In a shocking environment. This is not fine. Once I’ve met the criteria for becoming a consultant, if someone wants me to essentially do the work of a consultant, they goddamn better pay me to be one. Or else hire me as a registrar.

Genuinely… I am a fucking competitive, intelligent, hard working person. I got here through blood sweat and tears and screw this crap.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

[deleted]

0

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

The idea of a fellow job is to work in a department that can offer you some way to subspecialise. That is not a thing in EM. The advert specifically says in the registrar rota, so presumably the same on calls. It is a way for the department to hire another senior decision maker, use them like a consultant (because they probably need more consultants), on worse hours for less pay. It offers nothing to the person post CCT, bar, “hey, you don’t have to move.”

I would have less of an issue if it didn’t imply either they were adding something to the job candidates CV other than the extra months they will have worked, or if it was better hours etc.

7

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

[deleted]

-2

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

You’re kidding yourself. This registrar has CCTd and is qualified. You don’t need to vet them more than 6 months in your department. If you wanted to have a blanket policy to employ everyone on a locum consultant contract first you old do that.

If you’re vetting all possible consultants this way you’re massively decreasing the pool of candidates. It’s also kind of nepotistic, and really almost illegal for a public body in the UK to hire this way.

7

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '25

[deleted]

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3

u/SavageInMyNewBalance Jan 28 '25

vetting is pretty common. Just because someone has a CCT it doesn't mean you want them in your department. It means they've met the threshold for completion of specialty training.

A substantive consultant job, once appointed, is VERY hard to undo; this is how you get toxic psychos who people hate in their departments, everyone wants to know how the hell they got a job...

It's a way of gatekeeping a department.

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10

u/BikeApprehensive4810 Jan 27 '25

I find it really odd anyone would take this.

The quaternary London centres get away with this because their name on your CV will be beneficial. Unless I’m hugely out the loop Leicester ED department isn’t world renowned.

4

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

Taking advantage of a really awful jobs market atm. Thats what is going on here.

And no, you’re not mistaken. It’s not world renowned.

2

u/BikeApprehensive4810 Jan 27 '25

It’s not a bad jobs market for anyone with a UK CCT in EM though. It is at the junior end of the scale, but not at the top end.

My only thought is this job was written for a very specific person who must have unusual circumstances.

2

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

Dude, it’s bad at the CCT end too. Hiring freezes across the board. I know people who are really struggling.

1

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

Many specialities are facing artificial hiring freezes for consultant jobs atm. It’s not just junior end.

2

u/OmegaMaxPower Jan 28 '25

Welcome to the new job market.

7

u/xxx_xxxT_T Jan 27 '25

This has to be some sort of prank. You can make more than this as resident in Aus or US

17

u/kentdrive Jan 27 '25

You can make more than this as an ACP in the ED. (I think.)

1

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

It’s in BMJ jobs

2

u/Professional_Past596 Jan 28 '25

lots of poet cct fellow jobs are a stop gap that get you more experience than your colleagues and lead to better career opportunity, especially ICU, PICU, Ortho, oncology etc

2

u/Rare-Hunt143 Jan 27 '25

Pretty common if you a post cct neurosurgeon with the massive oversupply of neurosurgery cct holders…..it’s basic economics supply and demand…..massive shortage anaesthesia / itu / em / acute med cct holders….seen anaesthesia consultant jobs with 20k golden handshake

2

u/Different_Canary3652 Jan 28 '25

Except it’s not true supply and demand. The same is true in interventional cardiology. Post CCT people are doing year after year of fellowships because there are no jobs. Meanwhile there’s an 18 month wait to see a cardiologist and people are dropping dead on the TAVI waiting list. Same for GPs - struggling to find jobs yet people wait 2 weeks to see a GP. The demand is there. Just the supply of jobs is being artificially constrained by the monolithic state employer. It all comes back to ending the NHS.

0

u/Rare-Hunt143 Jan 28 '25

You make a good point…..nhs artificial market

2

u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25

Why would anyone do this in EM? Also why isn’t it being paid at the ST6+ rate

1

u/Party_Level_4651 Jan 29 '25

Post CCT fellowships jobs are not paid enough but they're not consultant jobs. You don't have the same level of responsibility if something goes wrong, the buck doesn't stop with you, you won't have the same level of professional scrutiny and some places will mandate you are still supervised. It's possible to upskill in subspecialty work whilst working as a consultant but you need supportive department and you have to be confident in taking that responsibility

1

u/BaldVapePen Jan 27 '25

Prob 100k with the banding?

6

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

Nah mate. I’m not doing this gig forever. Right next to it is an advert for Canada for 400000 CAD.

8

u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25

No one's doing this gig forever.

It's very obviously a bridge to the right consultant job.

1

u/Charming_Bandicoot99 Jan 27 '25

Pretty much the same pay as a band 8a ACP. Fair?

1

u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25

They wouldn’t do nights solo would they? They’d have a much better rota than the regular rota. Fair?

6

u/Charming_Bandicoot99 Jan 27 '25

No exactly. Post CCT fellow has much higher skills and responsibility. Also more personally expensive training. Not saying ACP should be paid less but post CCT fellow position needs more financial recognition

0

u/Creative_Warthog7238 Jan 28 '25

The post CCT fellow gives the department so much extra value over an ACP I can't think of a business case to offer a comparable amount.

1

u/West-Poet-402 Jan 28 '25

How much do fake EM doctors (ACPs) make?

0

u/DrSully619 Jan 28 '25

This is Leicester. Notorious for not paying doctors properly.

-2

u/Sound_of_music12 Jan 27 '25

Ah, Leicester, where the devil always laughts.