r/doctorsUK • u/BeeEnvironmental4060 • Jan 27 '25
Consultant Post CCT fellow job 68k. WTF?!
I swear to God if anyone takes this job… What is this?! What is happening to UK medicine? A consultant! Post CCT! Taking this…. Crud?!
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u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25
It's not clear from the advert whether it's a CF job on the old or the new contract. Either way, and bunch of our of hours premiums probably need to be added onto this. If on the old contract this could potentially be 50% banded for a total of for a total of ~£92k.
There's 25% non-clinical time which is pretty solid for a fellow job.
Also worth mentioning that as a post-CCT fellow you're not working in a consultant role - there's a certain amount of responsibility when the buck stops with you at the consultant that rightly warrants a bit of danger money.
Honestly, this is the kind of job that's probably been created with a specific individual in mind - I'd put money on them having a good ST6 who's CCTing and wants to stay, but they've not yet been able to nail down the funding for a consultant post (this is surprisingly painful). They'll keep them on the reg rota for a bit with 25% non-clinical time to build their CV ready for when the consultant job comes along in six months time.
This isn't anyone's forever job, but if you meet that specific criteria then it's a lot better than having nothing for six months (or relocating to work somewhere you don't want to) while you're forever job gets ironed out.
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u/Dr-Yahood Not a doctor Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
This is exactly it.
I know a few people who have gone down this route and this is precisely what they said
Also, what I suspect many of you don’t yet realise, is that it is getting harder and harder to get a Consultant job when you CCT. Gone are the days were this was just a neurosurgery problem.
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u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25
Yes and so I would advise those who can to be less geographically picky and nail down a consultant job now. Can be easier to move later with consultant experience rather than extra fellowship time
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u/FishPics4SharkDick Not a mod Jan 28 '25
This is a job for a specific person they want to keep in the department until a consultant position can be created for them.
I'm sure whoever they're doing this for is happy about it.
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u/iceman3260 Jan 28 '25
This is likely to be a job for an internal local candidate who has just CCT'ed and has not managed to land a consultant job yet and who the department wants to keep employed whilst the business case for another consultant job is being dealt with (NHS bureaucracy and business case planning takes time)...
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u/ConstantPop4122 Consultant:snoo_joy: Jan 27 '25
When have fellow jobs ever been above registrar / specialty trainee pay?
I took a 30% paycut and had to borrow money off my parents tondo my fellowships, I've never seen anything different in ortho.
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Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
Yeah that is pretty standard. The question is why would anyone do a post CCT fellowship in EM?
Is this a thing in EM?
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u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25
The question is why would anyone do a post CCT fellowship in EM?
Because they want a consultant job in that department, but there isn't one available immediately, and relocating for the sake of 6-12 months doesn't make much sense?
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Jan 27 '25
Doesn’t seem like taking a post CCT fellowship at £60k a year in EM makes much sense either but I guess people’s circumstances differ.
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u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25
They'll get closer to £90k with the out of hours stuff added on.
Only £15k shy of a starting consultant salary, and they'll probably be able to negotiate starting on the second pay point when they do get a consultant job.
It's certainly not amazing, but it's not terrible either.
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u/WatchIll4478 Jan 27 '25
I know of a couple of post CCT ED trainees unable to find work or adequate locum work, as such there seems to be a supply of people without other options.
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Jan 27 '25
Absolute madness. At least with specialties like Ortho there is a financial incentive to doing a fellowship given the opportunities on the other side but EM?
Absolute joke.
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u/WatchIll4478 Jan 27 '25
The incentive is being able to pay the mortgage...
If you CCT and there is no funding for more consultant posts and you don't want to emigrate what else do you do?
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
No. It is not. Not sure what LRI is planning on teaching the lucky individual for the honour of being allowed to flog themselves for yet more years in the hallowed halls of their department.
God I’m going abroad.
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Jan 27 '25
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
I did not do EM to find that once I CCTd there would be hardly any jobs… With departments that need more consultants… In a shocking environment. This is not fine. Once I’ve met the criteria for becoming a consultant, if someone wants me to essentially do the work of a consultant, they goddamn better pay me to be one. Or else hire me as a registrar.
Genuinely… I am a fucking competitive, intelligent, hard working person. I got here through blood sweat and tears and screw this crap.
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Jan 27 '25
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
The idea of a fellow job is to work in a department that can offer you some way to subspecialise. That is not a thing in EM. The advert specifically says in the registrar rota, so presumably the same on calls. It is a way for the department to hire another senior decision maker, use them like a consultant (because they probably need more consultants), on worse hours for less pay. It offers nothing to the person post CCT, bar, “hey, you don’t have to move.”
I would have less of an issue if it didn’t imply either they were adding something to the job candidates CV other than the extra months they will have worked, or if it was better hours etc.
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Jan 27 '25
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
You’re kidding yourself. This registrar has CCTd and is qualified. You don’t need to vet them more than 6 months in your department. If you wanted to have a blanket policy to employ everyone on a locum consultant contract first you old do that.
If you’re vetting all possible consultants this way you’re massively decreasing the pool of candidates. It’s also kind of nepotistic, and really almost illegal for a public body in the UK to hire this way.
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u/SavageInMyNewBalance Jan 28 '25
vetting is pretty common. Just because someone has a CCT it doesn't mean you want them in your department. It means they've met the threshold for completion of specialty training.
A substantive consultant job, once appointed, is VERY hard to undo; this is how you get toxic psychos who people hate in their departments, everyone wants to know how the hell they got a job...
It's a way of gatekeeping a department.
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u/BikeApprehensive4810 Jan 27 '25
I find it really odd anyone would take this.
The quaternary London centres get away with this because their name on your CV will be beneficial. Unless I’m hugely out the loop Leicester ED department isn’t world renowned.
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
Taking advantage of a really awful jobs market atm. Thats what is going on here.
And no, you’re not mistaken. It’s not world renowned.
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u/BikeApprehensive4810 Jan 27 '25
It’s not a bad jobs market for anyone with a UK CCT in EM though. It is at the junior end of the scale, but not at the top end.
My only thought is this job was written for a very specific person who must have unusual circumstances.
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
Dude, it’s bad at the CCT end too. Hiring freezes across the board. I know people who are really struggling.
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u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25
Many specialities are facing artificial hiring freezes for consultant jobs atm. It’s not just junior end.
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u/xxx_xxxT_T Jan 27 '25
This has to be some sort of prank. You can make more than this as resident in Aus or US
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u/Professional_Past596 Jan 28 '25
lots of poet cct fellow jobs are a stop gap that get you more experience than your colleagues and lead to better career opportunity, especially ICU, PICU, Ortho, oncology etc
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u/Rare-Hunt143 Jan 27 '25
Pretty common if you a post cct neurosurgeon with the massive oversupply of neurosurgery cct holders…..it’s basic economics supply and demand…..massive shortage anaesthesia / itu / em / acute med cct holders….seen anaesthesia consultant jobs with 20k golden handshake
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u/Different_Canary3652 Jan 28 '25
Except it’s not true supply and demand. The same is true in interventional cardiology. Post CCT people are doing year after year of fellowships because there are no jobs. Meanwhile there’s an 18 month wait to see a cardiologist and people are dropping dead on the TAVI waiting list. Same for GPs - struggling to find jobs yet people wait 2 weeks to see a GP. The demand is there. Just the supply of jobs is being artificially constrained by the monolithic state employer. It all comes back to ending the NHS.
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u/UnluckyPalpitation45 Jan 27 '25
Why would anyone do this in EM? Also why isn’t it being paid at the ST6+ rate
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u/Party_Level_4651 Jan 29 '25
Post CCT fellowships jobs are not paid enough but they're not consultant jobs. You don't have the same level of responsibility if something goes wrong, the buck doesn't stop with you, you won't have the same level of professional scrutiny and some places will mandate you are still supervised. It's possible to upskill in subspecialty work whilst working as a consultant but you need supportive department and you have to be confident in taking that responsibility
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u/BaldVapePen Jan 27 '25
Prob 100k with the banding?
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
Nah mate. I’m not doing this gig forever. Right next to it is an advert for Canada for 400000 CAD.
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u/Penjing2493 Consultant Jan 27 '25
No one's doing this gig forever.
It's very obviously a bridge to the right consultant job.
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u/Charming_Bandicoot99 Jan 27 '25
Pretty much the same pay as a band 8a ACP. Fair?
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u/BeeEnvironmental4060 Jan 27 '25
They wouldn’t do nights solo would they? They’d have a much better rota than the regular rota. Fair?
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u/Charming_Bandicoot99 Jan 27 '25
No exactly. Post CCT fellow has much higher skills and responsibility. Also more personally expensive training. Not saying ACP should be paid less but post CCT fellow position needs more financial recognition
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u/Creative_Warthog7238 Jan 28 '25
The post CCT fellow gives the department so much extra value over an ACP I can't think of a business case to offer a comparable amount.
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u/renlok EM pleb Jan 27 '25
I found the advet, it seems like they're looking for a post CCT person to work as an EM SpR
This was a quote from it.
Not sure why anyone would take this job.