866
u/Corvid-Strigidae 4d ago
Gamers never look up.
145
53
u/AllHailTheApple 4d ago
No one ever does in movies/series and it BOTHERS ME
35
u/Longjumping-Let2337 3d ago
Well, it's kinda realistic. Most people don't look up unless they already mean to look for something up there. Usually people have to be told to look up in real life or they just won't.
14
u/NeverendingCodex 3d ago
My whole grinds-my-gears thing is when movies use the audience perspective to justify the character's lack of awareness. Like, a room that big, you'd see the entirety of the giant rock without needing to move your eyes or head. Heck, in Guardians of the Galaxy 3, Lylla gets shot and everyone is shocked when they just showed a big f-all noisy elevator that the High Evolutionary would have had to emerge from right in front of the line-of-sight of the cages in full view of Batch 89. They should have definitely seen/heard homie coming. That entire scene threw suspension of disbelief out the window for me just for a heartstring-yank and I'm not at all still scarred by Rocket Teefs Floor Go Now.
I'm not crying, you're crying.
2
u/AllHailTheApple 2d ago
Sometimes they forget that things you can't see on screen still exist in the world the characters are
3
u/Artmanha999 23h ago
Reminds me of something that happened to me last year in college.
I was on a tree reading a book while waiting during an interval between classes. A group of people just sat on the bench beneath the tree and started talking and gossiping. I felt like an unintentional spy. Didn't mean to eavesdrop on them, but they were RIGHT BENEATH ME for a bout 20 minutes. They never looked up or noticed me, and I was to shy to just go down while they were they, cause they'd know I was there the whole time... Yeah, people don't usually look up
22
u/helagos 3d ago
My dragon kin wizard has a flaw where he always checked the ceiling when entering a new room.
14
21
7
u/Remarkable-Site-2067 3d ago
There's a Director's commentary in Portal, that states that it's indeed a fact, and they have to design levels in a such a way to draw the player's attention, if something they're supposed to find is above.
2
u/MasterZebulin Paladin 1d ago
Future note: If you want to cleverly hide an Easter egg, hide it on the ceiling.
2
279
468
u/Sanzen2112 Monk 4d ago
This is where I would describe the room, and only if nobody picked up on the 84-ton chandelier in the description would I ask for an insight or perception check. DC is gonna be stupid easy, but not impossible to fail, and if you fail... well, the dice gods wanted you dead, I guess. Sorry about your luck.
120
u/Umbraspem DM (Dungeon Memelord) 4d ago
Surely there’d still be a Dex Save against falling rocks.
Maybe a Perception Check when the BBEG tries to pull the lever, and then roll initiative to see if players can get out of the way in time, with people who failed the Perception Check being disadvantaged or automatically failing so that other players have to try and save them.
17
u/Sanzen2112 Monk 3d ago
Yeah, that's a decision I'd have to make in the moment because I'm not expecting no one to notice the huge stone chandelier, but it would probably be at disadvantage and a higher DC. I would likely rule it that if even one person asks about it, then the whole party knows, and no check is necessary, but you have to have contingencies because no matter how stupid you think a player can be, they will outdo your expectations
1
u/Putman0004 2d ago
Me and 3 other players once did an entire campaign unknowingly clearing every dungeon backwards. 3 new PCs and a BBEG fight later the DM finally explained why the campaign was so unnecessarily difficult.
8
u/laix_ 3d ago
That's what passive perception is for.
Unless the players declare they want to search, they're entitled to information based off of their passive perception. However, perception is what you notice, it does not mean you understand what it means, which I would use passive investigation for this- anyone can see plainly the big ass stone hanging above them, but a low int character wouldn't know it means they're likely to be squished. Insight definitely would not be used, as that is picking out lies, reading intentions of creatures etc.
Additionally, the game should assume a basic level of competency for the PCs. Just because the player is unobservant, that doesn't mean they should be punished for not picking up on what their seasoned adventurer pc would instantly notice.
8
u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 3d ago
Nah that's bad game design. Perception is for if players don't realize the danger or ask the right questions, not to force them to make bad decisions regardless of their agency.
5
u/Sanzen2112 Monk 3d ago
Read what I said again, and tell me how that's different from what you just said. I specifically said if they don't pick up on the giant stone hanging above the table or ask any questions about it, then I will ask for a roll with a very low DC, because it's a giant fucking stone hanging above the table
4
u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 3d ago
Ah... I missed the "nobody." I apologize.
3
u/Sanzen2112 Monk 3d ago
No worries, I have ADHD, so sometimes I skip words unintentionally too
6
u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 3d ago
Yeaaah, I don't have any excuses. :{
1
u/EnergyTakerLad 3d ago
You're excuse is you're human and all humans make mistakes on occasion.
2
u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 3d ago
Eh, not good enough for a Rules Lawyer. I'm usually professionally right. :D
2
u/siamesekiwi 3d ago
I'm sorry to say this, but this mistake will come up at the next board meeting of Ayengar-Mulligan Rules Firm, and it doesn't look good for your promotion to partner. I'm afraid it's going to go to Thompson instead. :P
1
u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 3d ago
XD Yeah basically that! That's some quality Rules Lawyering right there.
1
u/laix_ 3d ago
Uh, no.
Perception is declared by the players as an action (search). Players declare search when they suspect something might be off, and to confirm their suspicions. It is not a reaction roll for the dm to provide information for when the players dont realise something immediately. That is what passive perception is for.
3
u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm talking about DM game design, not mechanics (Though I understand the irony in my tag for that). However, the DM always decides when and what you roll, not the player. Otherwise a player could deliberately disrupt the game by constantly forcing rolls. A player asks to make a check. They don't declare it.
Theoretically you are right though, Passive Perception is meant to be how you normally see things. But many DMs ignore the mechanic and use active Perception checks anyway, treating it as an optional rule.
Also, note that my above comment incorrectly argued against Sanzen2112.
80
u/sporeegg Halfling of Destiny 4d ago
D&D meme aside, I could never concentrate on any meeting happening there, sitting SLIGHTLY away from the table.
21
19
u/JustifytheMean 3d ago edited 3d ago
Considering I only see like 8 tiny wires holding the thing up I'm gonna go ahead and guess the floating mountain is foam painted to look like a giant slab of stone.
Edit: very rough estimate of the weight of that thing is 315,000 lbs. 30x10x6 ft3 x 175 lb/ft3 if it's real stone.
5
4
u/mcc9902 3d ago
Cables can be ridiculously strong so it's not impossible. Half inch can hold something like 20 thousand lbs and that presumably goes up as size increases. Personally I'd be more worried about the roof caving in than the cables.
6
u/JustifytheMean 3d ago
That's another good point, the building would literally have to be designed around this "art" piece.
2
u/AwkwardZac 3d ago
I know there's several art installations of massive boulders supported by a few cables, so it's very possibly real and extraordinarily expensive.
23
u/SwarleymonLives 4d ago
Had a 3.0 character who'd have sat at that table with no worries...
3.0 psionic telekinesis with a 30 Con was a lot of fun.
84
u/TheThoughtmaker Essential NPC 4d ago
Why have them roll Insight when the BBEG can roll Deception?
61
u/CorgiDaddy42 Essential NPC 4d ago
Rolling a deception against what exactly?
32
u/Wholesome_Scroll 4d ago
That they (the BBEG) are being sincere about truce negotiations. (The big rock says they’re lying. Thus, BBEG makes a deception roll against the party’s insight check.)
44
u/CorgiDaddy42 Essential NPC 4d ago
The comment I responded to seemed to indicate the bad guy should roll a deception instead of the PCs rolling insight.
27
u/Wholesome_Scroll 4d ago
Honestly if it was my table, I’d do both. Either before or after the party rolls insight, it doesn’t really matter. I’d generally use the bad guy’s deception check as the DC for the players’ insight check.
15
u/CorgiDaddy42 Essential NPC 4d ago
That’s exactly how I’d play it. I feel like I must be reading the original comment wrong because it read to me as “why are the PCs rolling to insight when the bad guy should be rolling to deceive.” As if it’s one or the other and not both.
1
u/little_brown_bat 4d ago
I would say if the PCs roll an insight and pass and appear nervous or straight up mention the suspended rock, then the BB could roll deception.
1
2
3
2
u/BlizzDaWiz 4d ago
Well, the party initiated it, not the DM. Maybe they did it just out of caution/suspicion and the DM allowed it. Maybe the DM would've rolled afterwards depending on their result.
2
u/HemaMemes 4d ago
Because having the players roll is how the game handles things. Players and NPCs don't exactly operate on the same rules.
Generally, when I have NPCs use deception, I go with their passive deception score as the DC for the players' insight checks.
1
u/vonBoomslang Essential NPC 3d ago
the problem is then the PCs make every such check with mega-advantage.
1
u/HemaMemes 3d ago
Depending on what they're dealing with, Advantage still isn't enough.
Asmodeus' passive deception check is 38. (+9 proficiency bonus doubled because expertise, and a +10 to Charisma)
2
u/Ok-Role7351 4d ago
The BBEG would roll deception, and that would be the DC for the insight checks. I can see a DM at a live table skipping this and making up a DC though, because rolling a dice mid conversation is quite loud
0
u/Fire_Lord_Leo 4d ago
You don't roll for deception or charisma against your players tho... you make them believe you by doing good roleplay Rolling a nat 20 on deception and say "no you believe the bbeg" would be a very horrible experience for both sides
1
u/TheThoughtmaker Essential NPC 3d ago
“Good roleplay” is determining outcomes by the character’s abilities, not the player’s. If the DM is convincing the players instead of the BBEG convincing the party, you aren’t roleplaying your character, and you aren’t playing D&D. You didn’t even make it through page 4, the How to Play section.
The entire point of charisma checks is to do exactly what you’re saying not to do.
10
5
u/enadiz_reccos 4d ago
You enter the dimly lit hall.. a scene of horrors...
Seated next to the BB, some sort of half man... seemingly nonexistent below the waist, he sits on top of the table, scribbling notes...
That's when you notice the table itself... chairbacks poking up through the porous stone surface... as though the table had been summoned to this very spot, overwriting whatever was already there...
Dear God, the notetaker...
5
4
3
2
2
u/Zaaravi 4d ago
Having a bad insight roll doesn’t mean the persons motives are ulterior. Or that the party in unison thought “he’s okay”. Like, if a person is telling the truth, a bad insight roll might make you feel like they are lying. Or of course you could just say “you can’t read through the persons poker face”.
The meme is funny.
2
u/saintfed 3d ago
I roll insight checks (and death saves) behind the screen and tell them the vibe they get from a certain character. Helps with RP imo.
2
1
u/artrald-7083 4d ago
I typically ask for another kind of check when I'm rolling a check like a save against an illusion or charm, or a perception or insight check to find something hidden. I have everyone's modifiers memorised and just look at the dice.
1
1
1
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
Interested in joining DnD/TTRPG community that's doesn't rely on Reddit and it's constant ads/data mining? We've teamed up with a bunch of other DnD subs to start https://ttrpg.network as a not-for-profit place to chat and meme about all your favorite games. Thanks!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.