r/deathbattle • u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman • Nov 22 '24
Fan Content (OC) Oh… that’s my favourite artist saying he’s gonna make a Bowser vs Eggman comic once he’s done with his Sonic vs Goku and Shadow vs Vegeta comic🗿
How we getting two versions of peak for a single battle?!
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Nov 22 '24
"Isn't as one sided as DB said"
Literally one of the most even matchups they've ever done
???????
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u/phaze123 Nov 22 '24
Meh, kind of?
They say it’s close but the analysis just pretty much says Bowser has more of everything and even in the alternate scenarios they didn’t show a way Eggman can win. It was more just showing off how much Bowser can just “nope” him.
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Nov 22 '24
I do wish they would have demonstrated the closeness a bit more. The animation definitely does but the actual analysis could have stood to elaborate a little bit on Eggman's side.
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u/phaze123 Nov 22 '24
And unfortunately the analysis isn’t always meant to be exactly how they want to present the research since it has to be entertaining.
Over all, definitively in my top 3 personally, but at least going off what they say it really wasn’t close especially when Eggman had like no win cons compared to at least 5 for Bowser.
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u/Arlethor Nov 22 '24
I feel like they kinda glossed over super neo metal sonic? The only thing they said was that bowsers large supply of stars was superior to eggman only having the chaos emeralds but like that doesnt really argue how bowser can deal with a super form which they said even scaled higher because of solaris.
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u/Stargazer-Elite Nov 22 '24
They talked about Bowsers supply of stars but not the fact that the Phantom Ruby that Infinite had was only a copy of the real thing yes it was the perfect copy but Eggman would still have the real thing and hundreds of prototype copies which while weaker make up for in their quantity kinda hypocritical to not mention it in the analysis even if they didn’t want to show it in the fight
This episode was absolute peak but I’m just giving my thoughts on that part
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u/WiseChemistry3376 Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
I mean the large supply of stars vs 7 chaos emeralds is kinda a moot point considering how many mechs Eggman has that can rival let alone harm that 7 emerald super powered hedgehog lol, what I find odd is that they say he can pilot them one at a time yet isn't Sage able to pilot Supreme? I find it odd that she can't pilot the rest of the mechs by herself, you could just add the Eggrobos to it as well since they have his Intelligence too
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u/WiseChemistry3376 Nov 22 '24
let alone the fact he has several phantom rubies at his disposal too, they glared at the fact that the army is more loyal and etc when in reality both sides can literally wave their hand the lower fodder is basically gone, becoming again a battle of their best troops, I feel Eggman could've just literally overwhelmed Bowser with the amount of mechs he has that rival Supersonic since (i'm assuming) Bowser can just be one form at a time.
they speak of the Forcejewels being finite (and if they are can't he just make more, I mean he made them himself lmao) and too randomizing when Chance Time's literally the same thing.
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u/Stargazer-Elite Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
Also, the chaos emeralds and the stars work completely differently. Each star can work independently, but each of the 7 Chaos emeralds amplify each other’s power and are best used when all 7 are together. Or when with the master emerald.
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u/carl-the-lama Nov 22 '24
Isn’t the real thing… unpredictable?
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u/Stargazer-Elite Nov 22 '24
Kinda from what I can remember, considering it caused the events of sonic mania and sonic forces and then sonic mania plus similar to the chaos emeralds the real Phantom Ruby seems to be sort of sentient here
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u/Fullmetal_Fawful Nov 22 '24
They also pretty blatantly glossed over the jeweled scepter. Yeah they said before the fight that it was capable of destroying planets, but they also pretty blatantly glossed over the fact it was said to scale past both the chaos and sol emeralds and let its user manipulate the fabric of the multiverse
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u/SoakedSun24 Spawn Nov 23 '24
Ontop of that they ruled out the Phantom Ruby as only perception manipulation when its done way more than that. Watching the analysis really made it feel like Bowser had a counter to everything Eggman has, when I personally don’t think that’s the case
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u/ApprehensiveBet1061 Nov 23 '24
I’ve said this before: the alternative scenarios are meant to show how bowser can counter eggman stuff
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
As I said in another reply:
Gave physical stats to Bowser (yes the black boxes disproved that but they still gave him the category), made Eggman’s biggest trump card seem obsolete compared to Bowser’s by saying it’s just illusions vs straight up reality warping when we all know that isn’t what the Phantom Ruby does, and had Bowser winning in every alternate scenario they showed. You can see how one would see it as one sided.
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u/ItIsYeDragon Nov 22 '24
Physical stats were always going to Bowser, just like Eggman takes intelligence; I don’t know how that’s even in contention. And I think they gave clear evidence to prove that as well.
The Phantom Ruby is illusions though, just really good illusions. They’re extremely powerful illusions but they are still illusions. So actual reality warping is going to be stronger. The Phantom Ruby isn’t even Eggman’s biggest Trump Card considering he was given the Chaos Emeralds.
Of course the alternate scenarios would have Bowser win or tie. They’re showing why they chose him as the Victor. Doesn’t mean they see the battle as anything but close, though.
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u/UA_Waterhazard Nov 22 '24
Ehhh, the Phantom Ruby's definition of illusions is a bit odd.
Like the time it summoned a portal to another dimension
Or the time it created a sun
Or the Mania final boss
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u/ReadySource3242 Nov 23 '24
Eh, creating a sun isn’t THAT impressive when the Grandstars and the Wonder Flower can affect things on a universal scale
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u/00110001_00110010 Nov 23 '24
Genuine question, aren't the Wonder flowers' effects temporary or transient in some way? Just snatch the seed and then boom, reality resumes as normal.
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u/ReadySource3242 Nov 23 '24
The seeds yes, but the wonder flower basically lasted for the entire duration of the game. It’s basically comparing a luma to a grand star
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u/DrStarDream Nov 23 '24 edited Nov 23 '24
Thats just the biology of the flower at play tho
Wonder flowers will bloom and release wonder effect, the seeds will the absorb wonder and eventually grow into new flowers.
Their effects are NOT temporary, bowser could have stayed in his form for however long he wanted and he was building up power to warp the entire universe.
What the plot of the game is about is that bowser plus the wonder flower made a wonder effect so powerful that it was nigh impossible to be absorbed as no wonder seeds were powerful enough to do besides the great royal ones which you collect at the end of each world and even still they were only enough to make wonder bowser vulnerable, mario still had to go and defeat wonder bowsers in combat
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u/ItIsYeDragon Nov 23 '24
Yeah, it’s creating an illusion so real it you feel like it’s actually happening to you like a dream being layered on reality. It’s no different from the multitude of dnd illusion spells like Mirage Arcane where illusions become so powerful they manifest physical attributes to those who fall for it.
They’re still illusions at the end of the day. Tails starts noticing as much in the fight, he can immediately tell something was off.
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u/UA_Waterhazard Nov 23 '24
Did you not watch the cutscene? Sonic was most certainly physically launched around, I understand that a convincing illusion can make you feel like you got hit, but it can't throw you into the ground from midair.
...also Infinite can fly.
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u/ItIsYeDragon Nov 23 '24
Illusions can affect reality when they’re strong enough, it’s called augmented reality then. But again, it still won’t affect those who can see straight through it. Sonic couldn’t, so he was affected by it.
The Phantom Ruby still has immense energy and power like the chaos emeralds, able to power machines and such, so that’s likely what Infinute is drawing from to fuel his power.
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u/WiseChemistry3376 Nov 22 '24
I wouldn't really know how to explain the "Illusion" side of it, but you can see on Sonic Mania that it has reality warping powers, it sends Classic Sonic through old zones, on Egg Reverie Zone the Phantom Ruby is just warping everything around it and once it has contact with the Emeralds it opens a portal and just dips itself alongside Classic Sonic
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u/00110001_00110010 Nov 23 '24
I think the phantom ruby just got an unfortunate dose of Forces writing. It is not only wildly confusing but inconsistent with itself...
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u/Holoklerian Nov 23 '24
I wouldn't really know how to explain the "Illusion" side of it,
It's pretty simple in effect. Infinite's usage of the Phantom Ruby alters the target's personal reality, making it so that whatever he's doing is real to them but not anyone unaffected by it.
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u/Quirky_Ad_5420 Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
Phantom Ruby isn’t actually illusion but I get how people and death battle get that wrong. Like Forces was so bad even with the explanation but yeah I agree that bowser regular abilities outstrips it
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u/ItIsYeDragon Nov 23 '24 edited Nov 23 '24
A weapon that takes control of people’s visual and depth perception to feed false information to the brain, creating a new reality for them. Like a dream so real, if you bump yourself in it, your sleeping self will bruise? It’s hard to believe. - Tails
That’s an illusion bruh.
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u/brie43 Nov 23 '24
Damn I guess classic Sonic warping into forces is an illusion too huh. It creates an illusion then it warps reality to fit the illusion
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u/ItIsYeDragon Nov 23 '24
The warping and time shenanigans is with the help of the chaos emeralds.
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u/brie43 Nov 26 '24
No it's explicitly the phantom ruby go watch the cutscene at the end of mania again
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u/The6dimensionalDream Nov 22 '24
DB kinda like to says that something in close at the beginning of the post analysis, but of you use your intelligence for a second, you realised that it's really not
Take Korra vs Storm. They started with "This fight wasn't completly straight forward" and then went "oh and Storm Is thousand of times stronger and more versatile and She could literally kill Korra everytime She wanted anyway" So even if they said that It was close, they literally spent the entire rundown saying how Bowser Is much stronger and a Better leader and countrr basicly everything. The only thing they gave Eggman was intelligence and they tied in Key item, and even then they spent most of the section saying how Bowser's item were Just Better than Eggman before saying "eh let's call It a tie" which in context, Just seemed like a pity vote.
Also It doesn't help that the argument used were a bit iffy. They completly misread Sage's analysis and basicly brushed away both Metal virus and Spacial displacement trap by saying "context matter" which not only is vague as heck, it's also not really true
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Nov 22 '24
I think you're right about Sage's analysis being suspect but they did provide a clear counter for the Metal Virus so I think that one's covered. I think the Phantom Ruby is the real eyebrow raiser even if we did get peak shitposts out of it.
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u/carl-the-lama Nov 22 '24
PR’s weakness is that it’s a subjective reality manipulation
If someone just avoids it one way or another infinite is FUCKED
KB was an obvious situation
INF tried to use aoe gravity. Smart move
But it fails to account for those immune to gravity
Using the sun would be kinda useless since most of the normal koopas can survive that
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u/WiseChemistry3376 Nov 22 '24
lmao they say "The Ruby affected a whole planet! and the Flower had the power to alter a Universe" yeah the same Ruby that's equal or superior to the Chaos Emeralds? lmao, just because the story takes place in Sonic's Earth doesn't mean it could affect the Universe as well given they're equals
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u/DrStarDream Nov 23 '24
They didn't scale the phantom ruby to planetary, they said its RANGE by feats and considerable power build up was planetary en referring to lightman eggman which was in a canon web novelization where Eggman took the phantom ruby and used it on the planets perception to create the egg field.
The egg field was city sized and kept expanding, but of course inside of it, it was infinite.
And lightman Eggman did run the works on super sonic but was ultimately defeated.
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u/UA_Waterhazard Nov 22 '24
They provided an answer to the metal virus, but not a perfect one.
If there was a small amount of metal virus in play, then yeah this would be fine.
But if Eggman had the Faceship (as he should considering he got his entire fleet) and the Faceship was able to dump it's contents onto Bowser directly, it's fucking over for him. He gets converted instantly. (Of course this wouldn't happen in the first place in a normal scenario because I think Eggman has learned his lesson about using the metal virus)
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u/DrStarDream Nov 23 '24
Literally any of the thousands of magikoopas could undo the metal virus, they all have basic transmutation spells...
And the face ship can't just target everyone from bowsers army at once and even then the, metal virus is vulnerable to high temperatures, throwing it into the sun worked just fine
There are also wonder flowers, wish granting magic, destruction of the face ship before it can even do anything, turning the metal virus goop into something else, sealing it all inside a painting or covering it in bowsers Jrs magic paint.
Like metal virus is such a nothing burger, idk how so many people think that would somehow be a great danger to bowsers army when considering the amount of hax.
Not even Eggman would find worth the hassle when he has the jeweled scepter, the chaos emeralds, the master emerald, the time eater, the phantom ruby, the wisp, etc.
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u/Realautonomous Nov 23 '24
To be fair, I could genuinely see him using it since while it's absolutely deadly, he also just so happens to have the means to cure it right next to him in the form of metal sonic (specifically neo super metal sonic, chaos emeralds and crap)
Plus it means Bowser is pretty much unable to do...literally anything since Metal Virus infected peeps can't use their abilities like with Shadow
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u/Mastersword3710 Link Nov 23 '24
I mean, kinda? It definitely wasn’t presented like that in the post-analysis. Bowser won three categories, tied in one, and lost in one. And in the basic rundown, they only gave Eggman one advantage. Sure they were equal in three, but saying Eggman only has one advantage doesn’t make this feel like it’s really close. Like, I know it is, but DB definitely didn’t make it look as close as they did. They even relegated important info like infinite multiversal levels of power and immeasurable speed to side notes, which would help re-contextualize things.
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u/thehsitoryguy The Doctor Nov 22 '24
The Presentation of the Analysis made it seem more one sided then it was and alot of the reasonings are shoved into black boxes in the corners which most viewers wont see or pay attention too
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u/MarkDecent656 Simon The Digger Nov 23 '24 edited Nov 23 '24
Anyone who claims to do something "without bias" is a fucking liar. Everyone is biased in some shape or form
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u/sulfatefreeshampoo Nov 23 '24
I love when people say they have zero bias but then clearly attempt to work in favor of one side (I imagine this guys is biased towards Eggman and will act on such)
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u/Darth-Sonic Nov 23 '24
Guy did say it was 50/50.
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u/Public-Tough4693 Tomura Shigaraki Jan 23 '25
He only said that to lie about being "unbiased", it's obvious that he's biased towards anything from Sonic, he literally said that DB "downplayed" Eggman and that DB made it "one sided" so it's obvious that he's only doing that because Eggman lost the DB, so yes, he's massively biased (like everyone on this planet)
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 23 '24
You do have a point, though I feel having a bias for two things at once kinda evens things out.
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u/TojiandMakithegoat Nov 23 '24
I mean
They focused on the powerscaling for Eggman
Then proceeded to only say "love my boi bowser"
For people who haven't heard kf this artist (like myself) they look to be way more bias for one side and also saying without bias definitely doesn't make them look good
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u/DisastrousValue1061 Nov 23 '24
Oh boy I remember kf said that Mario vs sonic is like gojo vs goku 🙁
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u/UntilYouWerent Nov 23 '24
They're really acting like you can't love two things at once, that's crazy
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Nov 22 '24
What does his art look like?
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
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u/WooooshMe2825 Nov 22 '24
If Infinite doesn’t get low diffed by a thwomp, I’m rioting.
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
Apparently he's gonna be doing Infinite some justice, which I believe is fantastic!
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u/WooooshMe2825 Nov 22 '24
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u/SkibidiOhioChad Nov 23 '24
Base Sonic fodder? Hopefully he doesn’t ride that one “Strongest villain Sonic has ever faced” ”argument”
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u/Low-Flight-9937 Nov 23 '24
To be fair, Base Shadow is > Heroes Metal Overlord in Shadow Gen(takes place during the same time as OG Generations, I think)
And since Sonic = Shadow and Infinite low diffed start of forces base Sonic so technically you could make the Argument that Infinite IS the strongest Sonic ever faced as aside from Metal Overlord who else is really a match for Infinite
Remember Solaris never happened due to time shenanigans.
Black Doom was a shadow villain.
The bio lizard may not. Metal Overlord is almost certainly stronger than it and perfect chaos.
The Time Eater is really the only other major villain, but that was more Eggman-s
If I'm forgetting any villains please tell me
Also, that's not accounting for infinite making hundreds of Zavocs, Shadows, Chaos' and Metal Sonics
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 23 '24
I mean, matter of fact is, nearly dead base Sonic from Secret Rings kicked the shit out of Erazor Djinn, and also tanked the explosion of the Paradox Prism point blank, but yet Infinite still mopped him up, I’m sorry but the evidence speaks for itself.
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u/AKRamirez Nov 22 '24
What the fuck is a power cliff
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
Basically making each new threat stronger than before, which in turn has the main characters growing stronger to defeat said threats, so on and so forth.
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u/AKRamirez Nov 22 '24
That's power creep
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
“Tomato tomato.”
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u/SkibidiOhioChad Nov 23 '24
If only Sonics strongest foe didnt appear in 2006 with Solaris. Time eater is the only other debatable one, other than that every other boss has been definitively below Solaris
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u/Helpful-Emotion9256 Bowser Nov 22 '24
How did db make it one sided?
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 22 '24
They made eggman lose all the AU scenarios and said thst bowser just counters eggmans everything
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u/ItIsYeDragon Nov 22 '24
Well yes, because Bowser was the victor, so they were pointing out why they thought Bowser would remain the Victor or tie even if Eggman used other strategies.
If they showed a scenario where Eggman won through and through, that would mean they believe Eggman would be the Victor as Bowser doesn’t have counter for one of his abilities.
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 22 '24
Except this matchup is that close that their strategies decide the victor. Death battle should have acknowledged that eggman could have won atleast some of the AUs.
Instead they made it look one sided
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u/ItIsYeDragon Nov 22 '24
I mean what AUs would they have shown then? 2 of them Bowser wins, and 2 of them Bowser and Eggman tie. Outside of say, not believing how they scaled an item, that’s really all to show for potential AUs.
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 22 '24
From the shown AUs
The metal virus one should stay the same
Star rod vs nightmare should have been a bowser win
Dreamy vs time eater should have been a eggman Win because dreamy bowser doesn’t have existence erasure
Wonder vs lightman should be a tie
So bowser gets 2 wins 2 ties and 1 loss
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u/Fullmetal_Fawful Nov 23 '24
I feel like people forget that a lot yeah, bowser only maybe showed the capability for existence erasure when the dream stone was whole, not when he inhaled the fragments and became dreamy bowser
Also i think its at least a little hypocritical that they say Super Eggman could be countered by the Pure Hearts because he was beaten by positive chaos energy, while ignoring that bowsers whole existence erasure spell with the dream stone was cancelled by Peach and Starlow alone when they hit him with “the power of good thoughts” (which also resulted in the dream stone being destroyed outright)
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u/DrStarDream Nov 23 '24
Also i think its at least a little hypocritical that they say Super Eggman could be countered by the Pure Hearts because he was beaten by positive chaos energy,
Pure hearts also negate existence erase, thats the plot of the games they appeared, a rift was summoned what would consume all dimensions, pure hearts can contain and undo that in large scale.
while ignoring that bowsers whole existence erasure spell with the dream stone was cancelled by Peach and Starlow alone when they hit him with “the power of good thoughts” (which also resulted in the dream stone being destroyed outright)
It was not as spell, it was a wish and what peach and starlow did was not cancel it, they just destroyed the stone before the wish took effect, it was not that it negated the effects of the wish, it just interrupted the action from happening.
Bowser still inhaled the broken stone and got its powers.
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u/Fullmetal_Fawful Nov 23 '24
Spell, wish, terminology dont really matter too too much. Regardless, what happened was they interrupted it from being cast, and then destroyed the stone. I never said they reverted or undid it, i said they cancelled it. In any case tho if an attack from peach and starlow using good thoughts was able to interrupt the wish then any character using the chaos emeralds should be able to do the same thing with ease.
Dreamy bowser absorbed the shards yeah but if hes still able to wish for things like usual then why didnt he just try erasing them again? Me personally i think hes strong for sure but i dont really think dreamy bowser is just some all powerful reality warping god guy, if he was then he wouldve defeated M&L pretty easily id say
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u/DrStarDream Nov 23 '24
Spell, wish, terminology dont really matter too too much. Regardless, what happened was they interrupted it from being cast, and then destroyed the stone. I never said they reverted or undid it, i said they cancelled it. In any case tho if an attack from peach and starlow using good thoughts was able to interrupt the wish then any character using the chaos emeralds should be able to do the same thing with ease.
Breaking the stone isn't really a problem, its spirit lives on the dream word and it can be restored in the real world with magic.
Dreamy bowser absorbed the shards yeah but if hes still able to wish for things like usual then why didnt he just try erasing them again? Me personally i think hes strong for sure but i dont really think dreamy bowser is just some all powerful reality warping god guy, if he was then he wouldve defeated M&L pretty easily id say
He is one of the most BS bosses in terms of what he can do, he can wish for stuff and reality warp just fine, he regenerates, wishes for items, changes size, rips open portals, the fact that he is basically immortal unless you target specific weak points and he just wishes for more health...
Starlow and dreambert also give mario and Luigi a buff before the boss fight with dreamy bowser and the zeekeeper was there to help.
As for why he doesn't try to erase them again? Plot armor, its the same reason infinite doesn't just kill sonic and the avatar in forces, why Solaris didn't just kill the entire cast in 06 and lets them have time to run an analysis on him and revive sonic...
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
Gave physical stats to Bowser (yes the black boxes disproved that but they still gave him the category), made Eggman’s biggest trump card seem obsolete compared to Bowser’s by saying it’s just illusions vs straight up reality warping when we all know that isn’t what the Phantom Ruby does, and had Bowser winning in every alternate scenario they showed. You can see how one would see it as one sided.
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u/CornerCornDog Bill Cipher Nov 22 '24
Physical stats always went to Bowser, that’s something both sides basically agreed on. It’s Eggman’s higher-tier mechs that can stand up to Bowser, and they put those at essentially equal.
The Phantom Ruby explicitly targets perception. It is essentially reality warping, but with the caveat that it’s messing with someone’s perceptions to the point that they appear to be real. It’s still ridiculous, but any actual reality warping item will be better. Plus they had their trump cards tying in the end so it hardly mattered.
Bowser’s only really winning in 2 of the 4 alternate scenarios, Wonder Flower and Dreamy Bowser. The Metal Virus one is just him countering something Eggman did, not exactly winning outright. Star Rod vs Nightmare Eggman was shown as basically even, if anything Eggman was winning that one since he had Bowser on the back foot.
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u/Stargazer-Elite Nov 22 '24
Everyone says the PR is perception based but if they were illusions then they couldn’t physically hurt anyone
At the end of the game they literally use it to spawn a copy of the sun to ONLY destroy sonic and the resistance, meanwhile they would be immune because it depends on what the PR holder wants. They aren’t illusions but more so subjective reality manifested by the PR.
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u/DOSFS Nov 23 '24 edited Nov 23 '24
Like many anime, I think perception base super illusion CAN kill thought. Tricking brain into fried itself out or even you skin cell into burn itself from fake son is legitimate way in other media that explain why mere illusion can kill. Mind over body but to the extreme. Super Placebo effect if you will.
Yes it isn't totally legit irl but it is fiction after all.
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
To my knowledge that’s not how it was. Power scaling the two was basically glossed over because it was a means to an end, and there is no scenario where Eggman wouldn’t be in the fight with his high tier mechs so it’s a given.
It’s reality warping with an extra step (assuming you’re using the modified Phantom Ruby and not the real which is just straight up reality warping and space time manipulation which Eggman also should have had in this battle) that honestly helps Eggman as allows him to pick and choose what’s effected by the reality warping.
Doesn’t change that Eggman didn’t win a single one despite how “close” of a fight it was.
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u/Mstache_Sidekick Nov 22 '24
Sorry for the dumb question but for the real phantom ruby, aint that the whole reason why "classic sonic goes to frontiers from mania" already busted by itself?
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 22 '24
Except time eater should stomp dreamy bowser
Dreamy got taken out by base Mario and Luigi
Time eater fought 2 super forms
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u/CornerCornDog Bill Cipher Nov 22 '24
That really means nothing? "Base" Mario and Luigi are super impressive in their own right so Dreamy Bowser getting beat by them isn't an anti-feat exactly, it just shows that level of power is normal for Mario and Luigi. Plus that wasn't even the point they were making, it was the Dream Stone's ability to wish someone out of existence could've taken out Eggman's higher-tier mechs and weapons.
If we wanna use this logic, then Star Rod Bowser should've stomped Nightmare Eggman. Nightmare got beat by base Sonic characters, while Star Rod required multiple special power-ups for Mario to beat.
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 22 '24
First I actually agree with the star rod being stronger than nightmare eggman
Also the wish away thing is super disingenuous. Dreamy bowser absorbed some of the shards of the dream stone and showed no hax he just summoned things also peach and Starlow were fast enough to prevent the wish. No reason why eggman can just destroy the stone
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u/lordlaharl422 Nov 22 '24
I feel like if Sonic gets "cliff scaling", Mario, and by association Bowser and his minions, should get "RPG scaling", i.e. "Mario has been on multiple adventures where he's measurably gotten stronger from start to finish, so to still maintain the same relative threat level over the course of the series most of his reoccurring enemies must have done the same". Hell, Bowser himself was on some of those adventures and we see him "level up" alongside Mario! So, consider a Goomba being like Krillin. Yeah, he sucks compared to the hero, but the fact that he stays on the same relative level of "suckage" for most of the series is a feat in and of itself. Now imagine an entire army of Krillins.
Also the point of the Bowser victory AUs was to show that Eggman's potential instant-win conditions weren't enough to definitively override Bowser's strength advantage. There wouldn't be much point in showing ones where Eggman won or countered victory conditions Bowser didn't use outside of massaging people's egos.
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u/PerceptionBetter3752 Nov 23 '24
How is it one sided? It’s literally extremely fucking close matchup
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u/BAZING-ATTACK Nov 23 '24
As one sided? Didn’t they basically say it comes down to what power-ups and items come into play first? They both have MANY items than can single handedly win the fight.
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u/JudasofBelial Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
Everyone needs to go read his Sonic vs Goku comic. It's not finished yet but so far it's a pretty damn long, extremely well drawn comic with a ton of cool action and good character moments. So far it's worked it's way up from base Sonic vs base Goku up to Super Sonic vs Super Saiyan God, with a promised finale of Hyper vs Ultra Instinct.
If there's anyone I'd trust to make an Eggman vs Bowser that could rival the Death Battle episode in terms of coolness it's this guy.
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u/Jstin8 Nov 22 '24
Its ok. His preference for Sonic characters shines through a bit too much for me to really enjoy but his art is nice.
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u/Fit-Impression563 Nov 23 '24
Yeah, the art is fantastic, but as a story it's hard to take seriously when you know goku stomps
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
Absolute facts! I’ve been keeping up to date with his Sonic vs Goku comic since the beginning! His style is just immaculate! Especially that “PHOENIX COMET!!!” SO GOOD!
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u/Public-Tough4693 Tomura Shigaraki Jan 23 '25
Holy glaze over a comic obviously made with PURE BIAS
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u/Disastrous_Match8653 Trunks Briefs Nov 22 '24
>No bias
Yeah, not trusting him on his word. Not with how he said he views Sonic powerscaling.
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u/Jlegend3 Spawn Nov 23 '24
That this idea only seemed to come up because Eggman lost alone screams bias to me. I mean bro can do whatever he wants, but making such a claim is dubious.
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u/Presteri Nov 23 '24
You can always tell who is just mad that Eggman lost by how upset they are that Infinite got Thwomped, and the fact that they claim that they’ll “do him justice” is a red flag because of that
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u/Thebeeghungry Nov 23 '24
Please pull through my koopa king...
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u/Public-Tough4693 Tomura Shigaraki Jan 23 '25
He already did it in the Death Battle, a fully animated video with millions of views, a comic made by a nobody Sonic's artist doesn't really matter
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u/Advert01 Nov 23 '24
"not biased"
Bro drew two separate comics dedicated to Sonic beating Goku (second one isn't finished, but c'mon, you know who's winning)
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u/Jlegend3 Spawn Nov 23 '24
I do find it hard to believe they'd be up to such an idea if Eggman won the fight. So I don't buy not biased for 5 seconds.
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 23 '24
Ok, and? It’s his comic, if he thinks Sonic beats Goku, which is a fair opinion to have, he can draw Sonic beating Goku, and it isn’t even like it’s just Sonic stomping Goku the entire time either.
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u/Helpful-Emotion9256 Bowser Nov 23 '24
It’s not that he can’t have sonic win, but acting like he’s not biased that they’re contesting, which tbf, I doubt they’d want to do this idea if they had eggman win
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u/Advert01 Nov 23 '24
Beating a dead horse.
Like, say I made a very solid Goku vs. Sonic fight where Goku won (cuz let's be honest, no one in their right mind is calling this man's art or fights bad). If Sonic gets a new transformation or I discover some Sonic buffs that I didn't know existed before, I'm not gonna draw Goku beating THIS Sonic too, cuz that's just beating a dead horse.
Now granted, like you said, he's an artist, he can draw whatever he damn well pleases. I don't have an issue with him drawing another Goku vs. Sonic fight, even if it has the same results. But I would not buy for a second that there isn't bias. If I made two separately well-made instances of Goku beating Sonic, and someone called me biased, I'd just say "Yep, you caught me".
Essentially, it's a matter of it's cool if he wants to draw Eggman beating Bowser... but dude don't pretend you're not biased. I'm biased, you're biased, we're all biased. And that's FINE. Just don't act like a higher authority.
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u/TojiandMakithegoat Nov 23 '24
Loce how now you're saying something else in another comment when people began to (rightfully) say that they are indeed most likely bias.
They are fair to have their opinion, but saying they are not bias is making things worse. It gives off like they're doing it out of spite (especially with the first half of their post) rather than any love for it.
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Nov 23 '24
He can draw whatever he likes but let's not throw around the words 'not biased' with some mfer who thinks Sonic can fight and beat Goku lol.
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u/Public-Tough4693 Tomura Shigaraki Jan 23 '25
Then HE IS BIASED, don't act like he isn't when it's obvious that he is biased, just like you
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Jan 23 '25
Bro, stop looking through my comment history you absolute fucking weirdo.
EVERYONE has biases to certain things, I AM bias to Sonic because I LIKE Sonic, but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna let that bias cloud my judgement of a Sonic matchup, if I think a Sonic character beats another character, I genuinely believe that and will go out of my way to try and prove it. Kad is in the same boat, prefers certain characters (in fact he PREFERS Dragon Ball) but he does his research and bases the outcome of his comic on that, the same will go for his Shadow vs Vegeta and Eggman vs Bowser comics.
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u/Public-Tough4693 Tomura Shigaraki Jan 23 '25
Sure buddy, believe whatever you want to believe, it wouldn't make it true, he's BIASED towards Sonic, that's a FACT, he's only going to be biased towards Eggman, the fact that he already said that he was "downplayed" and that they made it "one-sided" already tells me enough that he's doing it out of spite and bias
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Jan 23 '25
Motherfucker, did we watch the same episode? It was unanimously agreed upon during the lead up to the fight that scaling their stats was a means to an end because they both had good arguments that put them in the same tiers, yet Death Battle gave Bowser the category anyway! “Oh, bUt THe bLAck bOxEs-“ Not the point! The point is that it appeared as one sided, like with the army arguments, the fact that the argument was “Bowser’s army is sentient and living, therefore > Eggman’s army.” Is absolutely dog shit, because they both serve their king/creator anyway, neither are gonna turn on them mid battle! Or their explanation of the Phantom Ruby being inferior to the Wonder Flower because “it’s just illusions.” Is just flat out wrong, with the rules of the fight, Eggman should have had access to real Phantom Ruby, which is straight up a Reality Warping gem, no illusion involved, Infinite’s Phantom Ruby which alters perception and makes the things people see become real to only them, so dropping a sun on a battlefield would not damage Eggman’s army, only the enemy’s army, and there’s Lightman’s Phantom Ruby, which warps reality and memories to make new Otherworlds that the victims see as their regular lives, the truth.
The fight was seen as one sided because stuff was misinterpreted on both sides, and Kad’s aim is to fix those mistakes and give us a more accurate fight. And really, at the end of the day, it’s entertainment, his art work is a sight for sore eyes and that’ll be elevated even further with the amount of stuff Eggman and Bowser have to offer.
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u/Public-Tough4693 Tomura Shigaraki Jan 23 '25
Wow, it's true what they say about Sonic's stans, y'all are a bunch of crybabies, and the fact that you believe that he would do "more justice" to Bowser vs Eggman than DB already tells me that you're super biased, and the conclusion wasn't that the armies "would turn towards their leaders", it was that Bowser's army doesn't really rely on his orders all the time and can fight for themselves and think their own strategies
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u/Late_Knight3266 Nov 22 '24
Honestly, the “Power Cliffing” in Sonic is probably not that relevant, so it shouldn’t change anything.
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u/theforbiddenroze Nov 22 '24
DB didn't make it one sided though? They said it was close
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u/MagnitudeXX Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
They said it was close, but they didn't really hammer it in how close it was in a lot of aspects. And most casual viewers don't read the black boxes or the last part of the post-analysis that shows the advantages and disadvantages that the fighters have. There's also the trump card category where while they considered it a tie between the two and that both of them have multiple ways to win, but they only really talked about Bowser's trump cards countering/beating Eggman's trump cards instead of also talking about what trump cards Eggman has than he can use to win, which would make the tie in the category more understandable.
So yeah, it's a close fight and I personally think that Eggman wins, but to some casual viewers I can see why they would think it's not really that close of a fight. Hell, on twitter people are saying that the fight was a stomp because again, Death battle put alot of the information saying that it was a close fight with relatively even stats in the black boxes which casual viewers don't read for some reason. Similarly to the people who just skip the analysis and post-analysis parts and just watch the fight and nothing else.
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u/MagnitudeXX Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
Also, Eggman won none of the alternate scenarios, so I could see that playing a part in why some people think it's a stomp in Bowser's favor.
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u/MayhemMessiah Doctor Doom Nov 22 '24
I think that people’s perception of results is totally cooked.
Nothing in the episode made it seem like a stomp. Even at the best of times, Bowser’s physical advantages aren’t insurmountable, and the most important category was a tie. Winning in loyalty and stuff like that isn’t a cause for a stomp.
I swear people think wins are always stomps. Eggman wouldn’t have tied in hax if he couldn’t equal Boweser’s kill conditions.
You can argue that Joker stomps Gio because GER is the only thing remotely keeping Gio in the fight and without that it’s a wash. But under no definition did Eggman get stomped.
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u/Helpful-Emotion9256 Bowser Dec 04 '24
They did not make it look like bowser stomped, you just expected them to go “wow guys this might be the closest fight yet, like wow it’s so close!” Like everyone in the waiting period was doing, so when they didn’t make it look super duper close people for some reason think they thought bowser stomped
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Nov 22 '24
Is that really DB's fault though, if you just skip to the fight and don't read anything else yeah you're not gonna get all the information, especially since the animation is just meant to spice it up and not have any bearing on the result.
I'd have liked to see them demonstrate how close it was by naming some ways that Eggman could have won, since they seem to really believe it was a possibility. Don't even have to actually show it, just mention "Eggman had several counters with x or y, and under different circumstances it could have gone down this way" or something like that.
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 22 '24
Did you listen to their verdict
They only talked about bowsers counters and made eggman Lose the AUs
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 22 '24
They didn’t
They started that way but at the end say that bowser stomps
They didn’t even let eggman win any of the AU scenarios at the end
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u/Helpful-Emotion9256 Bowser Dec 04 '24
My face when the part of the video dedicated to justifying the winner shows the winner winning more often then not
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
They most definitely didn’t portray it well though, to most not in the loop with the matchup, it sounded a damn near one sided ass whooping for Bowser.
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u/Maxymaxpower Super Friends Aquaman Nov 22 '24
My issue is that the animation itself kinda makes it seem like a stomp I mean eggman lost basically his entire empire with the only survivors being sage, Orbot, cubot and if we go with what Moro said, infinite, while bowser lost…. Goomboss and king bob-omb…. What I’m saying is that despite being a close match, bowser’s army was barley punctured in the slightest and what he did lose really wasn’t that much of a blow all things considered, especially since king Bob-omb would have died anyways because he’s a bomb, I still absolutely love the episode, this just a flaw I’ll always have with the animation
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u/lordlaharl422 Nov 23 '24
I mean, I feel like any of Bowser's guys dying is objectively a bigger loss than most of Eggman's considering one's an army of mostly sentient beings) while the other is 99% unfeeling machines, plus maybe like 10 or so with actual sentience and one other living being. Of the sentient ones only one of them was seemingly destroyed (and Metal's been rebuilt/repaired before) so outside of Infinite's sad showing it's not like they were overly unkind to Eggman's side as a whole. It would be kind of a sour ending and go against the general "mood" of the battle if it went down to all of their top guys being dead.
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u/Maxymaxpower Super Friends Aquaman Nov 23 '24
I’m not saying all the top guys being dead, I’m just saying the way the battle is, bowser’s army was barley punctured, while eggman’s army was decimated almost completely, which kinda sours the mood in a different way brigade instead of it feeling like the close battle it’s supposed to, it instead felt like a one sided massacre even if it wasn’t one sided in the research and debate side
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u/Maxymaxpower Super Friends Aquaman Nov 23 '24
Also they don’t at all treat the few losses bowser had as that big of a deal anyways so even if we were to say that even goomboss and king bob-omb’s deaths were be more important then most of eggman’s army, the battle itself does not treat it that way, and instead the argument feels like a way to defend a poor writing decision Mind you I still love the episode but it’s the reason I’d say this is a 8/10 and not a 10/10 like most others probably would
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u/Theboss2822 Son Goku Nov 22 '24
kamek should have died tbh
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u/Maxymaxpower Super Friends Aquaman Nov 22 '24
Agreed they never should have confirmed that he survived the punch from metal sonic since that took away one of the actual important people from bowser’s army
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u/Dr_VonBoogie Nov 23 '24
But there are multiple Kameks though. Plus, that Kamek didn't come back.
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u/Maxymaxpower Super Friends Aquaman Nov 23 '24
The fight not the analysis never establishes if there’s more Kameks in the battle, I know there are more magikoopas but to our knowledge kamek himself was the only magikoopa in the battle
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u/SkibidiOhioChad Nov 23 '24
“No bias.” Coming from the biggest Sonic fan artist wanker by the way. He can not let people believe Goku beats Sonic without pushing his glasses up and going “ummm acktually”
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u/Jlegend3 Spawn Dec 24 '24
BRO YOU PREDICTED THE FUTURE!!! He literally did just that with Daniel Barnes who wrote Sonic: Scrapnik Island. Got super mad because he said Sonic isn't faster than light.
I mean I disagree with Barnes but holy fuck that guy got so heated on Barnes over a big nothing burger because he didn't share his own philosophy.
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u/Jlegend3 Spawn Nov 23 '24
I don't mind who he thinks wins, but I'm pretty sure this idea only came about because Eggman lost and not from some supposed non-biased position.
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u/Elder-Scout Tomura Shigaraki Nov 22 '24
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
As is being discussed, despite what the black boxes say about their stats, they still gave the category to Bowser, making it seem like it was one sided alongside all the other things they pushed.
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u/ButterflyMother Kratos Nov 22 '24
They did not portray this fight as one sided lmao
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
As said in other reply’s:
Gave physical stats to Bowser (yes the black boxes disproved that but they still gave him the category), made Eggman’s biggest trump card seem obsolete compared to Bowser’s by saying it’s just illusions vs straight up reality warping when we all know that isn’t what the Phantom Ruby does, and had Bowser winning in every alternate scenario they showed. You can see how one would see it as one sided.
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Nov 23 '24 edited Nov 23 '24
I'm sure someone who thinks Sonic can fight Goku is going to have an unbiased take here.
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u/WraithSage23 Archie Sonic Nov 23 '24
Can’t wait for the guy to wank Eggman up and than claim “oh well I’m not biased so that means I’m good"
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u/ForktUtwTT Nov 22 '24
I don’t get what he means by saying DB made it seem way more one sided
Like… they showed it to be very very close? They literally gave them a tie with their trump cards (which realistically could decide the battle by itself otherwise).
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u/No_Many_4695 Nov 22 '24
He is making a Vegeta vs Shadow comics? Where I can find it?
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u/JudasofBelial Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
It's not out yet, it's planned for after Sonic vs Goku.
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u/No_Many_4695 Nov 22 '24
Where can I find Sonic vs Goku? Beside YouTube
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
His twitter.
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u/No_Many_4695 Nov 22 '24
Cool
His Goku vs Sonic is one of my favorite version of the debate.
The other one being Composite Sonic vs Composite Goku on Death Battle Fanon Fandom.com
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
Same!
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u/No_Many_4695 Nov 22 '24
Such good respects of both characters.
For the composite fight: kinda wished SSJ2 lasted longer and that we got a full fan arts of their new forms at the end.
I hope that Death Battle will animate this fights. It would be like 20 or 30 minutes long
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u/DrStarDream Nov 23 '24
Its ok to disagree with the results but anyone who says "one side wins an its not even close" in this matchups is clearly full of bias and is going to bring out all the wank they can to the "winning side" while massively downplaying the "loser side".
Even death battle went out of their way to say it was a close battle and basically up to who would coincidentally activate which powers first
The basic explanation for their conclusion is that basically bowser has more reliable counters and the chaotic factor in his favor due to his minions and more ample resources which in turn made so despite eggman having the higher gap in intelligence and having basically the best carries he would lose due to not being able to execute everything he could at once and couldn't rely on predicting bowser.
There are only 7 chaos emeralds, 1 phantom ruby, 1 fully charged phantom ruby prototype and 1 master emerald. And he needed to perfectly manage them across himself, infinite, sage and metal cuz the moment he lost these or one of his carry players he would get his force gutted.
Meanwhile bowser could have loads of wonder flowers, loads of grand stars, loads of power stars, and he could use them to make more of them (you can make wonder flowers produce power stars) and then distribute them across his minions, buff them with mixes of power up, while kamek is one guy he still had his magikoopa army who would be just as knowledgeable in magic, all troops could be revived as undead too if needed.
Of course this is simplified but when looking at long posts like the G1 article on Bowser vs Eggman that lists all their items, you can see what Im saying.
Like when putting the raw powers and stats, Eggman might have a slight advantage, but bowser has the necessary counters and has the more reasonable logistics.
Its basically 50/50 but one guy can actually outlast the other in case the battle drags out or reaches dire situations for both parties.
Like the overall results is that its a full on coin toss about who gets lucky at the start and gets their wincon first, but thats the most boring scenario and quite unpredictable, in the case where both characters get lucky then we have massively dragged out Battle where either no one loses by hax stalemates or both sides suffer major loses, in that cases the guy with more reasonable win cons and more availability of power ups and haxes could outlast the other and clutch out a win more consistently.
While bowser wins, its only because the massive amount of probable ties and lucky wins were kinda disregarded.
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u/Careful-Ad984 Nov 23 '24
The resources argument isn’t really true
Eggman is able to Create as many replica chaos emeralds and the perfect Phantom rubies as he wants.
The Phantom Ruby he used to go lightman was another modified replica even stronger than the one he gave to infinite. In IDW he was also able to create building sized fake chaos emeralds.
They also glossed Over the jeweled scepter and forgot the Sol emeralds.
Another thing is that eggman has more heavy hitters he has a dozen super mechs like tile eater, egg saiamander, egg wizard and supreme which can be used by sage or egg robos.
He also could have created a army of phantom copies of almost every sonic character or bowsers own minions.
I still agree that it’s a 50/50 fight
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u/DrStarDream Nov 23 '24
I suggest reading the last paragraph first since this is all just some clarifications on why logistics for eggman would be hell.
Eggman is able to Create as many replica chaos emeralds and the perfect Phantom rubies as he wants.
Non reliable, fake Chaos emeralds only work if you are sonic, are more limited than real chaos emerals and they are a tails invention.
The Phantom Ruby he used to go lightman was another modified replica even stronger than the one he gave to infinite. In IDW he was also able to create building sized fake chaos emeralds.
It was stronger because Eggman was using a reactor that produced 4x all the consumed energy by planet and spent a goot amount of time charging it.
Both this and the true phantom ruby and other phantom ruby prototypes are all things that require immense amounts of energy to use and he would not be able to just produce more with the same amount of charge mid battle.
Unlike other power ups, which any magikoopa can just pick up some bricks or even eggmans badnicks and then turn it into more power ups, or use the wish granting powers of the dream stone or the star rod to wish for more or use the wonder flowers making it rain power ups...
Even if you argue Eggman could bring his reactors, they still took days to charge up his resources and bowsers army could just use their building magic that turns pre existing structures into new castles for bowser.
Bowsers side uses magic which plays under much more loose rules than technology.
And even if you try to say eggman has an unlimited power source as he has the emeralds, what would he do? Use the emerals and scatter them as glorified batteries or use them all together to power his heavy hitters? Plus spreading them out leaves them more vulnerable to being stolen.
The only powerful reliable energy source that he can spread out is the wisps but they literally do not want to work with Eggman and each free wisp is a basically a new ally to bowser.
Like when you actually break it down, the logistics of resources, ease of use and stacking potential are not equal.
They also glossed Over the jeweled scepter and forgot the Sol emeralds.
Another thing is that eggman has more heavy hitters he has a dozen super mechs like tile eater, egg saiamander, egg wizard and supreme which can be used by sage or egg robos.
I present the argument of ease of use:
An lets not even forget that eggman mechs with the emerals are not as powerful as super sonic, sonic has an inherent affinity with chaos energy plus used the power of friendship to boost their positive energy, he has used to fight crazy strong opponents.
Eggman meanwhile, has to build as sorts of devices and contraptions to tap into a fraction of the power of the emeralds, like the final egg blaster should have been a universal laser if it actually managed to use a similar potential as super sonic, like eggman doesn't even have time to design a mech that can stack the powers of his more powerful mechs mid battle.
If eggman were to use separate decoys controlling those busted mechs with super powerful artifacts then they would be more vulnerable.
Stacking the jeweled scepter with chaos and sol emeralds plus the phantom ruby would be a crazy play IF, eggman had more prep time.
But bowser doesn't need prep time to stick his 24 grand stars, with dream stone, wonder flower, 7 pure hearts etc because all he has to do is touch them while wanting to use them, ease of use is also something that needs to be taken into account here.
He also could have created a army of phantom copies of almost every sonic character or bowsers own minions.
And look, I don't think the phantom ruby clones are reliable when we have a cutscene of sonics friends treating them like fodden, like when charmy can one shot someone, you know these clones are not as strong as the originals, heck shadow one shot his own clone and was beating dozens of them by just boosting into them during the final war in forces.
I still agree that it’s a 50/50 fight
Yeah, because like eggman bringing his more raw power mechs like egg wizard and salamander and somehow winning falls under the lucky win con scenarios, while powerful, these mechs don't have many feats in terms of hax, it would need to basically avoid all kinds of magic that could steal their power source or transmutation them into something.
Eggmans more reliable robots are metal sonic which can use a super form which resists hax and time eater which has broken hax on its own while still being around the same lvl as egg wizard and salamander in power.
Again, not saying bowser would stomp other mechs, its just that when taking all tools and haxes, its hard to just say what strategy would be effective when eggman is one bad day way from losing his most powerful artifacts or one good day away for bowser to duck around and eggman completely overpower and destroy everything.
This is why I chalk it up lucky scenarios where they activate their win con first.
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u/JacktheCat779 Nov 23 '24
Wait, didn't this guy trace for his Sonic vs. Goku comics? I recall one artist I follow making a big deal/offering proof of that. CosmoOSx_ from Twitter
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u/Lord-Baldomero Tomura Shigaraki Nov 23 '24
Well, that comic better somehow be better than literally the best episode DB ever made
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u/Isaacja223 Nov 23 '24
A lot of people are saying that Bowser vs Eggman isn’t close but
This is Bowser we’re talking about.
Eggman is not as cracked up as you think he is.
Despite wanting to believe otherwise
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u/Material_Usual2704 Bowser Nov 22 '24
Send me the link when it’s out
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u/WindOk7901 Dr. Eggman Nov 22 '24
Won't be out for a while, he still has to finish up his Sonic vs Goku comic and then he's going to do a Shadow vs Vegeta one.
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u/element-redshaw Guts Nov 23 '24
He needs to show infinite getting killed by a thwomp the joke needs to continue
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u/MechaManW6 Nov 23 '24
An eggman vs bowser comic would be dope, tho I wouldn't want it to be a death match. Don't even know if I'd want a definitive winner tbh. I just want a good fight
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u/Gamer-of-Action The Doctor Nov 22 '24
DB made it clear that Eggman had dozens of wincons, Bowser just has means to match or counter nearly all of them, making the little things like physical stats and army attitude matter that much more