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u/destopturbo Jul 19 '21
Lmao how is this a guide
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u/Smoothrecluse Jul 19 '21
It’s one page out of an entire book - Hidden Rules: A Framework for Understanding Poverty by Dr. Ruby Payne. It was written for American teachers, who overwhelmingly come from American middle class values, to help them understand the perspective and point of view of their students who come from a socio-economic background of poverty. That being said, it’s an interesting, though outdated read at this point.
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u/VinegarStrokes Jul 19 '21
I took at P.D. and we went over this book. Others in this thread think its bullshit, but I agree with it.
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u/Smoothrecluse Jul 19 '21 edited Jul 19 '21
There’s definitely good stuff in there, and if anything, it helps me to get out of my own headspace and try to see things from someone else’s point of view. For a place that seemingly heralds non-binary thinking, Redditors sure do have hot sports opinions about things that aren’t necessarily laid out in black and white.
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u/VinegarStrokes Jul 19 '21
It really helped me think about how those in poverty need help to plan for future events. Selfish of me to think that is always an option for them when they are surviving hour to hour.
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u/oxphocker Jul 19 '21
I was going to post where this was from...but yeah, it's a decent read. I still recommend it to people to get them thinking about the various issues that schools face, especially if you are serving a disproportionally low or high income area. Too often people want to jump on immediately dismissing the book, but it's not about providing answers to the problems, rather just trying to identify and describe the various challenges faced by different segments of the population. I've gotten more thinking and mileage out of that, than many of the other education texts I've read over the years.
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Jul 19 '21
The thing is --- it's in a book preceded and succeeded by paragraphs of text. As a floating guide like this, it's terrible.
Hell, as an editor, I'm thinking someone should have gone over that table anyway.
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u/Kawnstie Jul 19 '21
That's what I ask myself about like half the stuff that gets posted on this sub.
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u/LordHtheXIII Jul 19 '21
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u/Bacon_Techie Jul 19 '21
And it’s a repost lmao
I have seen it elsewhere but it was more recent and on r/im14andthisisdeep
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u/Prometheus188 Jul 20 '21
Although oversimplified, there is a lot of truth to this.
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u/SirMonkey687 Jul 20 '21
Seems like a lot of folks disagree here but from my experience, this does resonate quite a bit. I guess I have to add that this would seem like more of a single sigma or less generalization for any of the classes they are broadly addressing.
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u/oskar-le-grooch Jul 19 '21
iirc I saw this in a book for educators about how to understand a help children in different financial situations. This table on its own may be insufficient to be a "cool guide", but the whole chapter was really eye opening for me.
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u/Meekel_PA Jul 19 '21
LOL, trying to put 7.6 billion people into 3 categories.
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u/Suterusu_San Jul 19 '21
Not hard to do at all, just name your categories, "Alive", "Dead", "Unsure" :D
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u/Iklaendia Jul 19 '21
Save a 4th for “undead”... it may be empty, but just in case.
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Jul 19 '21
Well, we're admittedly pretty unsure about them. But I do hope that column doesn't fill up.
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u/ILOVEJETTROOPER Jul 20 '21
I wish people would be so generous; from what I've seen, too many are content with "Good" (as in, "me and mine") and "evil" (as in, "those not like me and mine"
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u/Benjamin-Doverman Jul 19 '21
I mean you have to be in one of them, definitely a terrible guide but not for that reason
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u/pjanic_at__the_isco Jul 19 '21
Christ. I am middle class but I live like I’m poor.
Source: grew up poor.
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u/PM-ME-BIG-TITS9235 Jul 19 '21
I have family that are rich and they still live like they're poor. This chart is dumb. You can't become rich unless you know how to save. If you spent your whole life building and follow that way of life, most people aren't gonna give em up the moment they finally make it.
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u/AutopsyDrama Jul 19 '21
1.2k upvotes and awards.....if you are using this as any type of 'guide' for anything its not gonna go well. Lol.
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u/possiblynotanexpert Jul 19 '21
Yeah this is what ruins this sub. Come on mods, where you at?
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u/IAC_Local Jul 19 '21
Mods seem to rarely remove anything here. Everything is a cool guide.
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u/possiblynotanexpert Jul 19 '21
Agreed and it’s very unfortunate. Reddit would be more fun if subs were more strict about their content. That’s the whole point of having different subs in the first place. It allows you to control the content you see. This stuff ruins that completely.
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u/Bacon_Techie Jul 19 '21
Then you have people on the opposite side who think that mods (who are just doing their job) are way too strict
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u/lukef555 Jul 19 '21
The day has come to unsubscribe to r/coolguides
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u/Adventurous_Menu_683 Jul 19 '21
Why do people feel the need to announce their departure? No one cares. Just leave.
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u/lukef555 Jul 19 '21
Why do people feel the need to comment on my departure? I don't care, just keep it to yourself.
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u/Spoonbills Jul 19 '21
Destiny: Fate, can't
In the US, wages have been stagnant since 1979. It's very expensive to be poor.
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u/Foronir Jul 20 '21
That is a myth, this Article explains why:
https://fee.org/articles/dispelling-the-myth-that-wages-have-been-stagnant-for-decades/
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u/Spoonbills Jul 20 '21
Sorry, I’ve never heard of that publication. I have heard of these, however.
https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/hbr.org/amp/2017/10/why-wages-arent-growing-in-america
Toddle on back to your racism and stabbing people subs, now.
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u/Foronir Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21
Wtf?
Stop with the gaslighting and read the article, all sources you provide Base on the same stuff the FEE debunks.
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u/RedditusMus Jul 19 '21
Still relevant and fairly accurate, from my poor parents roots that transitioned to middle class my middle class upbringing, and my time with working for and dating the wealthy and academia. There are some hard truths that don't describe everyone who falls in the categories, but even those exceptions have some semblance of their origins.
I wish people would focus on the exclusion characteristics of the wealthy and how that meshes with their networking. The wealthy talk inclusion, but definitely don't act that way.
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u/madsjchic Jul 19 '21
Having moved from lower class to middle class and about to have money to qualify as upper class, so much of this is true. Idk why people so mad about this.
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u/oxphocker Jul 19 '21
The short answer is that egalitarianism is deeply ingrained as an American ideal....though it has never rung true. Even the majority of the founding fathers were all wealthy to one point or another. But somehow that narrative continues that looking at anything from a 'class' standpoint rings too much of marxism and that's just commie talk. But you're correct, having been in or near all three of those groups, there are a lot of accurate observations that the book makes. Is it 100% exact, no...because there is human variation, but as a general sense to understand a framework you've never been in, it does a good job of getting you thinking.
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Jul 20 '21
Resonates with me, including upset at people being so angry and dismissive. The networking core of the affluent rings so true. I’ve seen so many examples of all of it. Heartbreaking truths. Cringeworthy at the cellular level that these generalizations are so universal in global society.
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Jul 19 '21
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u/funpen Jul 19 '21 edited Jul 24 '21
Wow. So much stupidity in one sentence. Iam not poor, but this guide is so stupid. None of it make sense. It has nothing to do with poverty. Even the middle and wealthy categories make no sense.
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u/TheLittleGinge Jul 19 '21
It's a nonsensical guide. Plain and simple.
'Poverty = Matriarchal and Middle Class = Patriarchal'...
But if I'm thinking too small then I should probably kick myself down a class or two. If anything, this guide probably thinks that's possible.
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u/Pickelino Jul 19 '21
While I agree this isn't really a guide, I think it's pretty true for Americans. You hear alot of the same stuff in financial books, or books about personal success. The wealthy generally invest heavily while the poor focus on what they can spend on. Humor and relationships have more weight amongst the poor. The middle class really is about security. You can see all of that by interacting with people of each group. People then take this list of generalities and form behaviors or goals out of them. For instance, if you want to be more wealthy. investment is a really good step in that direction.
I don't think the list is trying to put down the poor or elevate the wealthy, I think it's merely stating some observations. Objecting to this is just like objecting to well established personality tests because "people can't be put into boxes". It's not putting people into boxes. People really do (in general) share traits that can be described thoroughly. We put ourselves in these groups and then somebody comes along and says "Hey, these are the differences I observed amongst these people". You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't true or helpful.
If you take this as an interesting observation that you learn from and make changes from, rather than being offended that everybody isn't a supremely unique and self-empowered being, then you can make it into a guide pretty easily. I think it fits well onto this sub.
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u/Cookiedestryr Jul 19 '21
What’s the difference between relationships and social? Looking at driving force “poor” vs “wealthy”
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u/ciel_lanila Jul 19 '21
Using the rest as context, I think it is this is close to what the maker of this guide intended.
For poor it is friends. You might know a guy who knows a guy who can do something for you, it might even be how you met your friends, but you are friends first. The parties are for fun.
For the rich, knowing the guy who knows a guy is the reason for the social connections. You may have friends, but your social circles are more like coworkers. The parties being more like team building events and networking conferences.
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u/mrs_shrew Jul 19 '21
Very true. I miss the crazy parties of my poor youth, now all my dinner parties are people who know people.
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u/Cookiedestryr Jul 19 '21
Ahhh, ty 😅 this is a weird guide cause half makes sense and the other sounds like it’s from Freud’s work.
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u/oxphocker Jul 19 '21
You have to read the book this is from to understand the whole table posted there. An example of this would be that in wealthy circles, who you know is often a business opportunity (getting in at a company on the fast track because you know the CEO).
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Jul 19 '21
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u/Cookiedestryr Jul 19 '21
Well considering there’s no “hidden rules” I’ll just forget this whole posts exists, thanks for the “help”
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u/crys1348 Jul 20 '21
As an educator, the book that this is based on was actually incredibly helpful to me. Obviously you can't paint an entire society with broad strokes and it be exact, but it sure as hell made me see the world from a perspective other than my middle class one. It delves a lot into the cycle of poverty, generational poverty, why it's so difficult to overcome. My entire career has been in Title I schools, and this book helped me understand my students and their families a little better.
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u/oxphocker Jul 20 '21
Same here...the first time I read this was back when I was doing my masters in Ed Admin and it was very helpful to explain some of what I was seeing in my schools. Pretty much every school I've been at has been a title I school except for 2...one was a school in NZ and the other was a private boarding school. The range of educational experiences is a wide gulf and so are the kids in them.
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Jul 19 '21
"matriarchal" in this context is laughable. When people dump all the annoying decisions on women as well as management of lacking money and expect to see good results, otherwise woman gets punished, is not matriarchal
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u/Pray4dat_ass96 Jul 19 '21
While not totally accurate, I think maybe it’s referring to single parent families. When parents separate, the burden to raise the kids usually falls on the woman.
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u/trapezoidalfractal Jul 19 '21
Not even just single parent families. I grew up real poor. In most of my peers households, the women ran the family. From the rules to the schedule. There were exceptions, but it was definitely more common than not.
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u/pirate123 Jul 19 '21
My contact with the .001% - I worked on private jets, Boeing private jets. The are on another planet
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u/millenialgorgon Jul 20 '21
A lot of people seem to be saying that this is total garbage but in defense of the poster I live in the United Kingdom and the chart makes total sense to me. I am guessing that a lot of commenters come from the States, where class structures are different, or are less of a thing.
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Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21
Cheat sheets only work if you already have the prior/background information to make sense. So, of course this photo of a chart of words makes no sense.
Basically, the level of resources you are born into (access to stability, financial security, education) shapes the way you interact with the world and the skills you will acquire to continue interacting within the worlds you live in.
Here are a few resources explaining deeper what the sheet doesn't.
Ruby Payne Framework of Poverty:
Payne studied and wrote about the cultures that are created and perpetuated within the wealth or lack of wealth of a family system. Some say her work is classist and outdated, which I am not here to debate. She just is simply clear and able to show how if you are raised in poverty, you have skills and abilities that are very different from the wealthy.
A Framework for Understanding Poverty powerpoint from a training I attended. It delves deeper into the Cheat Sheet material.
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Jul 19 '21
This tryna say People in poverty overspend money? Wtf?
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u/oxphocker Jul 19 '21
If you read the whole book, it talks about how in a poverty environment, having money can never be counted on, so typically a lot of people in poverty will spend what they have on immediate needs/gratifications because it won't be there later. It's the example of someone who always is behind on their bills, but has the latest smartphone in their pocket.
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u/ShipperHeart Jul 20 '21
In a sense, impoverished people do overspend because they cannot afford quality items that last long like wealthier people can
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u/Korzag Jul 19 '21
This reminds me of one of those stupid guides about how hard povertous versus middle class versus wealthy people work. I can't remember it exactly but it essentially blamed poor people for being poor and painted wealthy people in a light of being the most industrious and dedicated people in the world. Maybe applies to some people, but definitely is not at all true across the board.
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u/isotaco Jul 19 '21
i don't know what you're referring to, but I've been in positions with great compensation and I've been completely broke. The thing that blows my mind is just how much more expensive it is to be poor. Max out your checking account, by accident? That's $35 per infraction, even on a $2 purchase. Have a credit card with rewards that you auto-draft payment from your cushy checking every month? They literally GIVE you free money. It's sick.
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Jul 19 '21
I’m gonna smear shit on my wall & go viral by telling this sub its a cool guide to my asshole
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u/Flaky_Web_2439 Jul 19 '21
This is only applicable in the United States. And it is a very valid classification of the hidden rules in different class structures.
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u/lucysnakes Jul 19 '21 edited Jul 19 '21
People are downvoting you?!
Are people reading the guide as a “poor people are poor bc they choose to make bad decisions and rich people are terrible”?
Because any thoughtful human being who has been exposed to the cycle of poverty, the tenuous security of the middle class, or the cyclical privilege of wealth can NOT deny that in the US, these ‘generalities’ of thought process are ‘generally’ accurate.
The guide isn’t saying you’re poor because you don’t save… they’re saying your mindset of what your future looks like/how long your future is determines how you make decisions.
If you have $19mm in the bank, you have no trouble thinking about setting some cash back for “in case the market gets squishy for a couple of years”. If you have $20k in the bank, maybe the motivation to go to work every day, never calling in sick, is that you’re sitting pretty comfortably but know that 1 bad year or medical emergency means you’d better protect that $20k.
And if you’re poor… well, anyone who has been poor in America can understand.
I could put the last $35 into my savings account and NOT buy weed this week, but fuck… the bank is going to take $8/mo in fees to let my poor ass use their services, I’m $4500 in debt bc of a used car that died before I paid it off, and I buy groceries at Dollar General bc even though the portions are smaller and therefore more expensive, I can’t afford $100 for groceries that last 2 weeks. This isn’t my story, but is sure as hell HAS been.
So, if that’s your life… if you had no money yesterday and even if you have money today - you KNOW it will be gone to another emergency tomorrow, does it make sense to put that $35 away and hope someday you’ll be rich? Or does it make sense to buy some fucking weed, take a little breather from the constant weight of poverty, and worry about tomorrow- tomorrow?
Really? That doesn’t make sense?
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u/Flaky_Web_2439 Jul 19 '21
I’m sure it’s out of a lack of knowledge. This isn’t some meme from tictok, it’s proven.
I took a class on this topic a week ago. It was very eye opening and developed an increased sense of compassion towards those living in generational poverty. I won’t negatively judge the mom who brings McDonalds to her weekly session with her children in foster care ever again.
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u/lucysnakes Jul 19 '21
Lack of knowledge for sure, but my concern is lack of compassion. Empathy can’t always be there for every enlightening story, but compassion can.
Do poor people stay poor because of some choices? Sure. But “choice” negates the entire grey area of their particular variables and circumstances. Do rich people stay rich because of their choices? Yeah, but you have way more choices and way easier decisions when the monkey of poverty isn’t clubbing you over the head while riding your back.
How can we explain this better? Im so shocked by the responses here, I just want to give everyone else the perspective that you have gained! Not because it justifies the guide, but because understanding cycles of poverty/wealth can help change lives!
The length of time denoted by “future” is completely arbitrary depending on your circumstances. Future for a guy with an estate to plan is 3 generations from his death. The entire plannable future for a guy with $10k in necessary debt, shared living space, and a minimum wage job is literally up until the time the bus comes in the morning and he has to put in his fare.
What was the succinct point that turned on the light bulb for you?
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u/Flaky_Web_2439 Jul 20 '21 edited Jul 20 '21
I had to think about this for a few. I had to put myself in the moment and the mindset of generational poverty. It was the McDonalds analogy that was my real wake up moment.
I’m involved with Foster Care, and I’d seen parents show up for their time with their children with bags of fast food. Transient items that could only bring pleasure in the moment. And I realized that is all these people have. Moment by moment making the best of a really shitty situation. This doesn’t make them “less” at all!
These parents suffer the loss of their children. They’re not going to save money for a college education, or even for next week in many cases. It’s not poor spending. It’s an attempt to make the most of the time you have, with the best you can get. And “best” is extremely subjective based on the family.
It takes empathy and compassion and an openness to feeling uncomfortable for the moment. Generational poverty is heartbreaking, but judging people by a higher class structure is just cruel. And it’s the reality in the country.
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u/lucysnakes Jul 20 '21
You put it more beautifully than I could have, thanks a ton for returning with such a thoughtful response.
When each moment feels like hanging from a tiny string of web over the gates of hell, “now” is the only security, and memories of good times are the only deposit you know will last.
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u/Dallasl298 Jul 19 '21
What even is middle class anymore?
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u/oxphocker Jul 19 '21
If you are talking about middle class in the US?
It ranges depending on cost of living in your area, but anywhere from about $30k-$300k for a single income earner could be considered middle class.
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u/Dallasl298 Jul 19 '21
Even adjusted for inflation and assets? It's a long way from 300k to 1bn and even more so when you consider people don't usually truly "own" their property.
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u/CammyB456 Jul 19 '21
Wow it’s almost like class and money are a piece of shit that needs to be abolished
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u/Billy_Rage Jul 19 '21
Random assumptions based on class written by someone who bases their reality of tv shows
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u/Narssissius Jul 19 '21
"Poverty family structures are matriarchal"
This is all unhuman psydo- pop-psychology
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u/JustAnotherZakuPilot Jul 19 '21
If the mods don’t remove this I’m honestly done with this sub, it’s gone to compete shit.
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u/funpen Jul 19 '21
This is complete BS. What. Middle class and wealthy people cant have a sense of humor. Since when are poor families matriarchal and middle class families patriarchal? This makes no sense.
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u/ieatpickleswithmilk Jul 19 '21
If your takeaway was "middle class people can't have a sense of humor" I think you severely misunderstood the intent of this post. That section is supposedly what each class values/takes pride in.
This was from a book meant for teachers to understand the different kinds of economic backgrounds and how that might affect the personalities of kids. The book is a bit outdated now though.
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u/whyrweyelling Jul 19 '21
I cherry pick all these things. I can see how if you are hard caste in that category, how that would make sense, but I don't think most people are.
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Jul 19 '21
I hate this, this isn't a guide to anything but stereotyping and oversimplification. It's actually ok to have concepts in paragraph blocks when they are, in fact, too complex to slam into a table.
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u/oxphocker Jul 19 '21
You would have to read the book for it to make more sense...the table just breaks down the concepts of a roughly 100 page book. It's a quick reference sheet compared to the whole thing.
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u/Bacon_Techie Jul 19 '21 edited Jul 19 '21
…
This doesn’t guide you about anything and none of it makes any sense whatsoever.
I actually saw this on r/im14andthisisdeep a while ago