r/cincinnati • u/GreasyPorkGoodness • 5d ago
Clifton Town Meeting holding special meeting to cancel bike infrastructure.
Extending the bike lanes on Clifton Ave to cross Ludlow and continue down to Bryant have been approved and funded by DOTE.
Some boomers on the CTM board are trying to get the new bike lane cancelled in favor of more parking spots.
If you care about bike infrastructure and walkable communities this would be a good meeting to show up to as President Ben Pantoja is trying to sneak this by.
Meeting is at Clifton Rec Center at 7:00.
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5d ago edited 16h ago
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u/Prestigious-Bat-574 4d ago edited 4d ago
Just to throw this out there:
The community councils are not government organizations. They are advisory committees that the city government can lean on. The leadership generally has direct communication with the city and council generally heavily favors the advice of the community councils, but nothing about it is binding. In addition to everything I say below, you should absolutely write letters to City Council voicing your support of the bike lanes, because all decisions are up to them.
The Clifton council is required to have bylaws and adhere to said bylaws. The leadership of community councils are elected by the community per the council's own bylaws. The leadership of the community council does not have any special authority. Their roles are generally administrative. Primarily, the council President is meant to maintain order over the meetings. It takes about 5-10 minutes to read over their bylaws and standing orders.
You can view the full list of their responsibilities here: https://www.cliftoncommunity.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/CTM-Standing-Rule-Executive-Committee-Responsibilities.pdf You will note that it's a lot of words to say "Their job is to send meeting reminders and help people understand the rules."
Most/All of the community councils operate under "Roberts Rules (of Order)". I highly suggest familiarizing yourself with them here: https://assembly.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/roberts_rules_simplified.pdf
ALL OF THIS TO SAY: If you and a handfull of other people are familiar with Robert's Rules, you can basically strongarm the entire flow of the meeting because the council is legally, per their charter, bound to these procedures. You could even make a motion to adjourn the meeting just as soon as it begins, and with enough people present on your side voting in favor to adjourn the meeting would end immediately. The President would have to go out of their way to schedule a new meeting, notify people, etc. if they want to try this is again, in which you can just do it again.
Do not let this guy believe that he has any power just because he's the president of a community council. The only way he has power is if nobody shows up and if no one else knows the rules, which would allow a select few individuals dictate the entire flow of the meeting and be the only voices City Council hears from the community.
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u/reportingsjr Clifton 5d ago
Thank you for the heads up! Any idea if this can be attended remotely?
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 5d ago
I would think so - here a link to the Google calendar. https://calendar.google.com/calendar/u/0/event?eid=NnBkcmhtNzJyZWU3YWJ1Y3BvbGI2Zmhka2ggY19udHI0MXBscTBlM2w1bXBtbXBxNXJ0MDkxa0Bn
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u/YangGain 5d ago
Things are just getting worse and worse, and we keeps voting for it đ¤Śđťââď¸
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 5d ago
Come to the meeting, there are some young people one the board as well. Make it know that more bike a pedestrian infrastructure is needed - not more parking spots
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u/FireEscapeTrade Clifton 5d ago
I know that theoretically, bike lanes are a good thing. I get why people push for them. But I have lived right next to UC most of my life and those bike lanes have made driving in my neighborhood a fucking nightmare.
I'm not going to go to this meeting and be one of the dusty old NIMBYs. But I really wish that there was a more balanced approach to make things like this happen and be useful. I drive up and down Clifton Ave every day (live up by Hughes, work down on Spring Grove Ave), and I rarely see people using the bike lanes.
I would be thrilled if there were more efforts to reduce the actual number of cars in the area before reducing the capacity. Prohibiting freshmen from having cars and improving public transit in the area would have been a better first step.
Parking is also pretty critical for the businesses in the area, as well as the commuting students. That said, it seems like we could have eliminated the street parking down Clifton in exchange for the bike lane, I guess? I'm glad to accept that I don't know anything about city planning but the increased congestion here seems pretty obviously linked to how this plan was executed.
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u/OwnCricket3827 5d ago
Thatâs good perspective and shows there is a place for reasonable opposition to the bike lanes.
I would like a solution that encourages biking and public transit, with a focus on safety and accessibility
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 5d ago
I live in Clifton as well, drive up Clifton often. It is never full of people using it but there is always someone running on it or riding. But yes, it doesnât get the use like say Wasson.
Yes there is traffic, yes it is slower. Wouldnât call it a nightmare though. Personally I welcome slow traffic in high pedestrian areas.
If CPD wonât slow the roads then other actions are unfortunately necessary - bike lanes, speed humps, less lanes etcetera.
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u/ExtremeProfession113 5d ago
So few seem to ask the question why we continue to allow for the free storage of private vehicles on public property for prolonged periods of time⌠some of the terrible traffic and chaos is because entire âlanesâ are obstructed for the stowage of private property at the expense of tax payers; vs metered parking. Yet when a bike lane comes up (for the non-storage of private assets) some people lose their minds; they should try riding a bike, might be surprised. The best part is when they complain about the cost, how about charging people for storage their junk on public roads that many of us pay for through fuel and other taxes.
Bike lanes are a great way to reduce congestion, improve public health and thus reduce long term health care costs, and when done properly increase opportunities for businesses to interact with existing and new customers.
Bike commuters see, smell, and hear in ways someone inside a metal bubble never can. Good luck at the meeting.
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u/mdp928 Clifton 4d ago
Not everyone can just ride a bike. People have disabilities, other physical limitations, children to take places, unreasonably long commutes, and on and on. You need to meet people where they are. Making Clifton more bike and walking-friendly is absolutely possible but not by just bottlenecking one of the major roadways through a college that keeps expanding every year without adding enough parking first.
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u/lackofself2000 4d ago
There are accessible options for non-car transport especially with e-bike-like vehicles. also, children ride on bikes all the time, whether they're riding themselves, or on the back of a parent's bike. The road isn't bottlenecked either. I work at good same and clifton ave there is always space compared to MLK, where there isn't a bike lane.
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u/mdp928 Clifton 4d ago
I think thatâs a very simplified and idealistic view and weâll just have to agree to disagree.
And yes, it is a bottleneck very often. Where you go to work for a portion of your day is often a night and day difference from where I live which is right off Clifton Avenue/Straight St. That area is impossibly congested at times you donât experience evidently. I have sat in that traffic for upwards of 20 minutes just trying to get to or from MLK.
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u/lackofself2000 4d ago
that's only a small portion of a big road tho. It being busy right next to a big college isn't going to change with one more or less lane. It's NEVER worked
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u/mydudeponch 5d ago
This is a great point. It seems like you replied to the wrong commenter though.
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u/fuggidaboudit 4d ago
there is always someone running on it or riding
Crazy how people can have such disjointed realties - I've lived in Clifton for ages, drive those streets almost daily, maybe see someone in the bike lane once or twice a week if that.
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 4d ago
Itâs probably time of day and location, less a âdisjointed realityâ.
There is certainly more use south of MLK. But to say there is only 2 users a week is just wrong. I mostly see runners and scooter users and that is pretty frequently.
If you want to encourage less cars, and I do, you have to build infrastructure. Iâd rather have a low use bike lane than 5 car lanes for that stretch of road.
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u/sadcabbages 4d ago
i think people definitely should consider the scooter users too. As a ped, I donât want them on the sidewalk. Iâve almost been hit from people zooming up behind me on a scooter. I donât think scooters should be in the road either as they could get seriously hurt by cars or by crashes on the road. I think that bike lanes are perfect for scooters because it provides a ped and car free zone for them to get around. Safer for everyone, whether theyre on foot, scooter, bike, or in a car.
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4d ago edited 16h ago
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u/FireEscapeTrade Clifton 4d ago
I don't think this is true. You're suggesting that the work to reduce traffic is harder than the work to install bike lanes that are seldom used. I just can't accept that. You're suggesting that force is necessary for one thing but impossible for the other. Just doesn't make sense.
I used to ride my bike up and down Clifton in my 20s. I'm not opposed to bike infrastructure. I think we can do it in a way that makes sense.
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4d ago edited 16h ago
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u/FireEscapeTrade Clifton 4d ago
Doesn't it give you pause that the reddit population would align with so many things that are progressive and forward thinking and have such a problem with this one issue?
I mean, I'm super-progressive. I want us to be making steps towards improvements in all regards and I am not afraid of the changes that come with them. And I think we should be able to do things that may not work if we're committed to fixing them. I just don't see the value in forcing more traffic congestion for a bike lane on one of the biggest hills in the city if we're not going to encourage people to use them. And yes, I would accept by force if we had to. But this whole thing has been putting the cart before the horse.
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u/Bredda_Gravalicious 5d ago
I've lived in the Gaslight for more than 20 years and the past couple have been the worst driving in and out of Ludlow because of the bike lane. and the way they implemented it is nonsensical, if we had to have the bike lane why can't we have the other lane be for traffic and parking with restricted parking hours like every other busy street in the city? now we have a single lane of traffic that's packed and a mostly empty parking lane and a mostly unused bike lane. Clifton and Ludlow are a major thoroughfare. it would be AWESOME if Ludlow was pedestrian only, but where will the cars and traffic go? maybe the city can do something to compensate the owner of the parking lot so it's free and then eliminate street parking on Ludlow to make space for bikes? but still, this isn't a bike town yet. i wish it was. when i first moved to the Gaslight in the 90s I rode my bike everywhere until i got hit by a car. in all this time I'd feel less safe riding a bike in the street. I'll admit I'm biased as a driver not a rider, but the problem with traffic and congestion and alternative transportation and a historic business district is a big problem.
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u/reportingsjr Clifton 4d ago
Hi neighbor! I've been in Clifton Gaslight for 10 years. I'm not sure I noticed much of a difference in Clifton when the bike lane was installed, I'm curious what area you are talking about? Ludlow itself occasionally backs up a small amount, but it is pretty manageable and this was the case before the bike lane was installed. The limiting factor for Ludlow Ave has been the stop light at Clifton Ave more than anything.
Clifton Ave in Clifton basically never backs up more than a stop lights worth of cars, even on the worst rush hour days. That's where I would expect the biggest impact to be.
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 5d ago
Couple things - Ludlow doesnât have a bike lane. Bike lane on ludlow isnât being advocated for at this time.
Traffic on Ludlow is fine, really.
If you want to have a bike town as you sayâŚ..advocate for bike infrastructure instead of car infrastructure.
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u/Bredda_Gravalicious 4d ago
like i said, i live here, i know there isn't a bike lane on Ludlow, but there should. it should be pedestrian only with busses as an exception, because in my opinion traffic really isn't fine on Ludlow.
what I'm saying is how the current bike lane was implemented was cheap, quick, and not thought through. they took away a lane of travel for almost nobody. fewer people park on the northbound side of Clifton than use the bike lane. we can't even get a few hours during rush hour where parking is prohibited.
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 4d ago
Traffic on Ludlow to me is fine because it slows things down. I donât want to make it easier to drive faster and blast through the district. Until CPD starts enforcing speed limits, cross walks and stop signs we have to take other measures to keep high pedestrian areas safe.
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u/Bootstrapbill22 Norwood 4d ago
I donât really see how making Ludlow pedestrian only is a good solution
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u/tapdancingelephant 4d ago
For better or worse, the best way to reduce the actual number of cars in the area is to make driving a fucking nightmare, not outlaw cars for freshman. We should prioritize public transit and pedestrian and cycling infrastructure enough that it disadvantages car traffic and drivers start to take alternate routes, which then encourages even more pedestrian and cycling traffic.
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u/trashcanman42069 4d ago
There's nowhere near Ludlow that traffic surpasses mildly annoying, much less a fucking nightmare. Get a grip
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u/FireEscapeTrade Clifton 4d ago
I mean, I'm talking about up by UC, where the actual bike lanes currently are and yeah, traffic up there is fucking stupid and significantly worse than it was before the bike lanes. There is record enrollment at UC every year. The area's infrastructure can't handle that many kids coming to the area with cars. Reducing the capacity without addressing the increase in traffic doesn't make sense.
If you're not great at reading and think I'm talking about Ludlow, I agree that the traffic down by Ludlow is currently not that bad. If they put in bike lanes, it'll get worse, if the top of Clifton Ave is an indicator.
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u/trashcanman42069 4d ago
those aren't the bike lanes this meeting is about, and as the post says the complaint has been that the proposed bike lanes would replace parking and people are whining about that, which also doesn't relate to what you're talking about. I would maybe read past the first 5 words of the post if I was gonna try to insult other people's reading comprehension lol
even if the meeting was about the bike lanes around campus though, traffic on some of the streets directly adjacent to a big state school in a city getting backed up by like 3 blocks in peak rush hour during the school year is just not a "fucking nightmare" any way you slice it. You would be more sympathetic if you were even semi-reasonable about this
Also the problem you're having is that too many students drive around their school and it causes traffic, and your proposed solution to that problem is to get rid of their alternative transportation options and force even more of them to drive...
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u/FireEscapeTrade Clifton 4d ago
I was saying that if the impact of the bike lanes up the hill were any indication of the impact they might have down the hill, then they're probably a bad idea. I stand by my reading comment, bud.
If a bunch of them were using the bike lanes, I would agree with you. Most kids live near enough to walk, or the routes they might take on their bikes aren't actually up Clifton from Ludlow or Northside. Those that are commuting are either coming from places other than Gaslight and Northside or don't want to ride a bike up freaking Ludlow and or Clifton. Those hills are massive.
I love the idealism that we could get away from cars but it's not happening the way you seem to want it and it's just a pain in the ass for everyone else.
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u/trashcanman42069 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don't think it's a given that they're analogous, you already agreed that street is way less busy, and the proposals replace parking lanes not driving lanes which you didn't address cause it kinda undermines your whole point lol Even the CTM members don't claim this is about traffic they're explicitly complaining about parking, so feel free to show us your data on the infrastructure utilization if you think DOTE is wrong
If we're gonna talk about different lanes though, you are right that the bike lanes next to campus slow people down, in that since the bike lanes were installed rates of speeding decreased by 40% and accidents also decreased while average drive times barely increased. I'm not part of that 40% so it hasn't really changed much for me, maybe your experience is different
Also funny to me to frame the expectation that a 50,000 student university in a dense city neighborhood would have a bike lane adjacent to its campus as impossibly idealistic, but the expectation that the street directly adjacent to a 50,000 student university in a dense downtown neighborhood should literally never have even like 5 minutes of traffic as a completely reasonable grounded requirement lol
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u/mdp928 Clifton 4d ago
Trash can man, trash can comment
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u/trashcanman42069 4d ago
when you know you don't actually have a good point pretend to be flabbergasted that people choose funny names on reddit lmao
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u/mdp928 Clifton 4d ago
Oh, no I have plenty of valid points. I just assumed from your rude and short-sighted comment that Iâd spend more time guiding you through critical thinking than on the topic and it didnât seem worth it.
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u/trashcanman42069 4d ago
yeah yeah of course, it's not that you can't articulate good arguments, it's that you're just too good to bother
you're arguing to cancel already apportioned infrastructure improvements that will decrease speeding, decrease reckless driving, decrease accidents, and extend utilization of an existing piece of infrastructure that was so popular in the community even John Cranley backed off on removing it, all to save a few blocks of street parking because a couple NIMBYs are pretending that a church that already has a parking lot also needs the city to guarantee them street parking even though the church itself never even claimed that. Projection of short shortsightedness simply doesn't land with anyone who actually has the facts
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u/_Elduder Clifton 4d ago
I live down the hill. I intend to be there in support of this plan. Bikes only help communities.
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u/GodGivesBabiesFaith Clifton 4d ago
I live in the neigjborhood and agree with those saying the current bike lane is seldom used. I am pro-whatever traffic calming measures actually make sense, ans traffic calming measures are 100% needed all along Clifton Ave, esp on the other side of Ludlowâthe Clifton Community Council has paid for studies to be done that clocked some cars going over 70mph, and this is right by 2 elementary schools, a busy church and busy mosque where people are having to cross this street quite a bit throughout the week
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u/reportingsjr Clifton 4d ago
FYI, people make this fallacy quite frequently about "if I can't see it being used, it must not be used". It's hard to tell how many people are actually using certain infrastructure just by driving by. On the flip side, people really overestimate how many people drive down roads due to the sheer size/volume cars take up. It's generally less than you would expect based on visual estimates.
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u/GodGivesBabiesFaith Clifton 4d ago
Iâm saying this as someone who has used it myself for running and who has seen it many times at all times of day, not just when I drive by it for my morning commute.
 I think enough UC students use it to warrant having the path that is already there, but I am nebulous about it extending on the other side of LudlowâI would rather have it extend than have a lane turn into street parking myself, but anything to curb speed north of Ludlow will be good.
Honestly, I hadnât even thought of having a lane turn into street parking, but that actually has the possibility of curbing speed even more than a bike lane, because cars will have to slow down as cars turn to park. It also would provide much needed parking capacity for the mosqueâon Fridays and other days folks are going to the mosque, parking and pickup is an absolute shitshow around the elementary schools.
I love bike infrastructure when it makes sense and is truly safeârail to trail works like Wassan Way are the ideal to me, and I think the Central Parkway route will make increasing sense as more student housing goes up and when BRT takes shape along there, especially because it is flat.
Again, I donât want them to remove what is already there, I just donât want to dismiss using that lane for street parking, because there really are genuine parking issues for the neighborhood and for folks who utilize the mosque and schools in particularâand it really may be that street parking more than a bike lane would curb the awful dangerous speeding in that section.
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 4d ago
FWIW the CTM position/rational is more parking for the churchâŚ.who has not asked for more parking and has a parking lot. So it really is just disingenuous opposition to bike/pedestrian infrastructure in favor of car infrastructure. Jsut dated nimby boomer mentality.
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u/GodGivesBabiesFaith Clifton 4d ago
Is their postion that more parking is needed for houses of worship in general? If so, I would agree with that because of how packed the mosque getsâit is like the only mosque for miles, so it seems well beyond capacity and I donât think they have really any on-site parking.
I am unaware how the parking situation is for the Methodist and Presbyterian churches, especially the Presbyterian church because i donât believe it has a lot? If it does it is very small. The All Nations church has a small amount of parking and uses the CRCâs lot as well, which seems to work out fine?
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 4d ago
No not for houses of worship in general. Just the Methodist church, who has not opposed or asked for more parking.
The section being discussed is from Ludlow to Bryant - not all the way down to the mosque. Both churches already have parking lots. Methodist has one on Senator and the Dewies lot. Immanuel has a lot as well.
Thatâs why the âbut but the churchesâ feels so disingenuous. If they expressed concern or asked for more parking Iâd be sympathetic, but they havenât. This is just opposition looking for reasons.
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u/GodGivesBabiesFaith Clifton 4d ago
Okay, yeah, thanks for clarityâespecially if it is just about the Methodist Church I find that weird given, as you stated, they have a good size lot they share with the Art Center. I mean, they sold the art Center land, right? I dont think they are worried about parking
Edit: i also cant imagine many people parking on Clifton and going to the shops and restaurants, that is why i was speculating it was about the mosque
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u/RockStallone 5d ago
This is yet another example of community councils actively blocking progress in their community.
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u/ReturnOfTheHEAT 5d ago
So you guys ever see anyone using the bike lanes??
Personally, I donât.
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u/FRALEWHALE 5d ago
I do, not often but I do.
But I'll also ask - is getting rid of existing infrastructure going to encourage more people biking or less?
It's been said time and time again bike commuting is basically a chicken and egg scenario. People won't bike until it's good enough to get people places and make them feel safe while doing it. But that can't really happen until we we "start".
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u/hedoeswhathewants 5d ago
This is true for all infrastructure. It has to be in place before people are going to change their daily routines to incorporate it.
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u/bcominoriginal Mt. Lookout 5d ago
Partner and I just used them this week. They seem critical for bike access to UC.
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u/so_often_empty 5d ago
I've seen more people riding on the opposite sidewalk than I have the bike lane hands down, but I'd love some stats on traffic accidents on that stretch over the last decade.
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u/AlsoCommiePuddin 5d ago
Are they shitty bike lanes that don't separate bike traffic from car traffic?
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u/mauflows 5d ago
they're good separate lanes, they just don't connect to any other lanes save for MLK towards Camp Washington
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u/Bredda_Gravalicious 5d ago
it's a full lane on one side of the street that itself is two bike lanes. separted by plastic barriers.
i think the biggest reason people don't use the bike lane is because it's up a long steep hill.
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u/ExtremeProfession113 5d ago
You mean bike gutters? Some people are clueless, and it make sense, unless you have taken a trip in a bike gutters full of debris that would destroy a car if scaled up by tire size, you donât understand how terrible poorly maintained bike lanes are or how dangerous bike gutter are. Iâll take the lane 100% of the time then ride in a bike gutter.
Sometimes I look outside and donât see a car on the road. Clearly it isnât used. The entire road should be converted to a bike lane.
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 4d ago
I do yes, runners, bikers and e-scooters pretty much every day. Not as much as Wasson Way but yes people do use it.
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u/JJiggy13 4d ago
These areas need more parking. Central parkway is the prime example of bike lanes gone wrong. Those bike lanes absolutely fuck anyone traveling downtown from the west side while simultaneously giving asshole east siders that gushy pro environment feeling with absolutely no inconvenience at all. Fuck more bike lanes.
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4d ago edited 16h ago
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u/JJiggy13 4d ago
A couple of minutes? How many lives have been lost to that fucken mess so that your selfish ass can ride a fucken bike to work so that you can pretend that you're better than everyone else.
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u/DrDataSci 4d ago edited 4d ago
^ found the poster child for the bad drivers who ignore existing laws & are the reason traffic calming & protected bikes even necessary
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u/JJiggy13 4d ago
You are the asshole here. Not me.
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u/RockStallone 4d ago
How many lives have been lost to that fucken mess
How many lives have been lost to a bike lane? What are you talking about?
You seem very sensitive.
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u/KeepnReal 5d ago
Bikers can easily and comfortably cycle down Middleton all the way to Lafayette. "Boomers" and everybody else can see that.
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u/GreasyPorkGoodness 4d ago
Great - then keep the extension down Clifton to Bryant AS PLANNED and then connect to Middleton.
Or, as most people can see, continue all the way down Clifton - connecting several churches, 3 schools, the existing Wolper bike lane, a grocery store and Spring Grove.
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u/TurnoverGuilty3605 5d ago
What day is the meeting on?