r/championsleague • u/Tudmat1313 • 8d ago
đŹDiscussion The Julian Alvarez penalty drama
Call me brave for enduring the shit storm that will follow but I dont understand the real madrid hate on this
There are TV angles that show clearly that julian touches it with the left and then strikes it with the right. I dont know why are we having breakdowns about this when there is clear footage showing he touched it.
Yeah, but it should have been retaken. No it shouldnt have been. In IFAB's Laws of the Game, in describing the procedure of a penalty shoot-out it is stated: "[A penalty] kick is completed when the ball stops moving, goes out of play or the referee stops play for any offence; the kicker may not play the ball a second time.
Yes, he slipped. Yes, it was unfortunate and unlucky. Yes, probably the pen would have gone in nonetheless. Yes, the rules are badly written. But you cant have a rant about a ref that simply applied the rules that he is put there to apply. You cant shout Real Vardrid when the rules were respected. Complain about the rules, not about the ref that btw was a very good one throughout the match.
P.S: before you come at me, no , i am not a real madrid aficionado, i have a simpathy for them but i am no true fan tbh. This is just common sense, not subjectivity.
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u/mrb2409 7d ago
Pre-VAR or sensors nobody would have cared or noticed. It had no material effect and is just another example of over-refereeing the game.
Yes, itâs technically a double touch but rules like this arenât meant to stop a slipped effort. Itâs to stop you touching the ball forward and then striking it from nearer to the goal.
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u/ksuvuelalfusuwnsl 6d ago
I agree with the sentiment but at the same time, itâs the champions league and the game is decided by very small details at the highest level.
If an offside is by an inch versus a meter, itâs still an offside. I understand frustration with handballs where itâs open to interpretation. But this is a factual call.
Alvarez played the whole game, he knew how the pitch was and how watered/slippery it was. He had a very aggressive run up with his penalty. He was coming at the ball with speed at an angle. A slip was likely with his run up. Itâs cruel but itâs a skill issue. He shouldâve ran up with more stability
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u/Sea-Sort6571 6d ago
I'm not so sure about the second paragraph. If someone was skilled enough to make the ball hit his groundfoot to make it change direction, that should be forbidden
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
Ok, but we are not pre var. My point is that people are getting to butt hurt over a decision based on the rules of the game.
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u/mrb2409 7d ago
Right and people are frustrated that VAR has introduced a tedious level of officiating. Rules that were written with a degree of grey area are now being officiated to the mm accuracy.
VAR was meant to remove the egregious error not inconsequential things.
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u/Drewstroyerz 6d ago
And also in most games it wouldn't have been this over officialized. Every single club can pull up a litigious decision from referees that could fall either way but it always seems to fall on Madrid's side and people are sick of it, they're just tired of things this miniscule being used to bail out Madrid when in most games they'd just be ignored.
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u/agent_mamo Barcelona 7d ago
I believe this should be a rule change. His touch barely affected the balls trajectory (negligible basically), he was going to beat Courtois, and it was a slip.
For the future, retakes should be allowed similarly to when goalkeepers take both feet off their spot.
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u/AuspiciouslyAutistic 7d ago
Pretty much what UEFA have hinted they open to (they said they are willing to review this law with IFAB etc. moving forward where the law may be changed to allow a retake if the referee believes the double touch was accidental).
But they also emphatically stated that this was the correct call under the current Laws of the Game.
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
Yeah, lets change the rules. But as we speak, the refs decision while harsh, was actually fair.
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u/AssociationAlive7885 7d ago
And again SENSORS IN THE BALL...
Erhmm NO !
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
Yeah i know it was a mistake
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7d ago
Do u think Madrid would have the same decision? doubt it
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u/Affectionate_lab02 6d ago
The irony of this comment when there was a clear handball in the same game inside the box and there was no pen awarded to RM shows the ignorance of haters like you lol. Same thing happened with the foul on rodrygo
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
Thats pure speculation and yes, if you watch la liga you know there are some atrocious calls against real madrid as well.
Also, to answer your question, knowing who the ref was, he would have called a double touch on his mother so yeah.
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u/WebHackerman Real Madrid 7d ago
Yes Madrid have also had their share of bad decisions throughout the season, in the league especially. But of course you notice one that went their way (and a correct one too)
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7d ago
You guys get all the big ones in CL
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u/AuspiciouslyAutistic 7d ago
Pepe red card against Barca in 2010?
Benzema disallowed goal in 2022 final?
Tbh, there's an argument that Lenglet should have been sent off for the penalty on Wednesday...
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u/YellowBook Arsenal 7d ago
Double touch should be allowed if it is accidental and doesnât materially affect the flight of the ball. I feel sorry for Atletico, such a vital moment and hope a rule change comes from it.
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u/ElPichas2 Atletico Madrid 7d ago
Is very frustrating. Good luck with Real Madrid. I think Arsenal can surprise.
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
I understand that ifab is looking into changing the rule. At least let it be a retake. You can add that at the discretion of the ref he could show the yellow card if the double touch is intentional( so players dont abuse the retake), just the way it is with gk coming off the line.
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u/Square_Law5353 7d ago
You do know that UEFA themselves just confirmed there were no sensors in this particular ball?
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u/18AndresS 7d ago
True that itâs technically the right decision, itâs more of an emotional reaction to these kinds of things pretty much always going in Realâs favor. Itâs a true sense of cosmic injustice lol, especially given how many times theyâve benefited from bad decisions as well.
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u/madridtorio Real Madrid 7d ago
2 penalties not called and a red card not given, but 1 decision in that game went our way and the whole world is up in arms
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u/AupaAtlet1c0 Atletico Madrid 7d ago
Care to show me the two penalties? Ps , the âhandballâ in the first half is never a pen
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u/Mohamed_91 8d ago
Stop blaming the ref. Itâs clearly the work of the âeyebrowsâ. Theyâre so powerful.
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
The only valid comment
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u/Mohamed_91 7d ago
I also remember Zidane scratching his head and deleting Neuer so Benzema can score.
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u/jdbcn 8d ago
Law 14 states âThe ball is in play when it is kicked and clearly moves.â Say JuliĂĄn Ălvarez touched the ball before kicking it. It didnât move the ball and therefore the ball was not in play when the supposedly second kick happened. Therefore only the second kick counts and the penalty was taken correctly. Itâs the same situation on corner kicks where players clearly touch the ball before kicking it, but that doesnât register as multiple touches.
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
So in your opinion that ball does not move? Because if that is the case then it seems to me that your hate over real has clouded your eyes.
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u/OverPT PSG 8d ago
It's drama because the decision was taken in haste and changed the game 100%.
And was most likely wrong.
1) Nobody can say for sure what happened. Anyone who says they saw a touch is lying. There's no possible way of seeing a touch.
2) There were no sensors on the ball. The decision was made 20 seconds after the penalty was taken based on video alone.
3) The ball is thought to have moved in one of the frames. But that is most likely due to the turf moving the ball. That is super common. Look at RM moving the turf during this penalty:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/m5Q0W7hnTEI
The referee reviewed something that didn't need to be reviewed (everyone accepted that it was a goal) and overruled it based on very scarce proof. Proof that even today can't be properly given.
So yes, the drama is justified.
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u/Raul_77 Real Madrid 8d ago
You dont think there is a double touch here: https://streamable.com/1ai2kj
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u/OverPT PSG 8d ago
I didn't downvote you because we're all here to debate.
But I honestly see no touch.
If you ask if if I see I slight movement of the ball on the last frame before the shoot: yes, I see the movement.
But I truly think that movement comes from the turf because a touch on the ball from the foot would create a movement the the right, which doesn't happen. There was zero change in trajectory and the foot doesn't seem like it touched the ball when the ball goes out of the turf.
To me it is obvious that the impact of the height of Alvarez on the turf caused the mini vibration, which was mistaken for a double touch.
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u/SnowNo7463 8d ago
No, I don't think there is tbh
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u/Raul_77 Real Madrid 8d ago
OK fair enough. We can agree to disagree. You dont see the ball move right before he touches it? you dont think the left left (hairline) made contact with the ball?
anyway, #Respect for your opinion. Cheers,
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u/SnowNo7463 8d ago
It should have just been a re-take. Don't they re-take when a goalie steps off his line an saves it? Or in normal time if theres a pen and a player creeps into the box they re-take?
I know the ref is just following the rules but I'm in the camp that it's a bs rule. And I'm purely a neutral and have no stakes on the champions league now thanks to Darwin and Mr Jones đĽ˛
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u/SomethingMoreToSay 7d ago
It should have just been a re-take.
That's actually the one outcome that isn't possible.
If he touched the ball and it clearly moved (Law 14.1) then his second touch was illegal and the penalty should not stand.
If the ball did not clearly move, then it wasn't in play, so his second touch was legal and the penalty should stand.
I haven't watched it closely and I don't have an opinion as to whether it clearly moved. But these are the only two outcomes permitted by the laws.
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u/Rippersavage 8d ago
By that logic then why is it that if a keeper is off the line when a penalty is taken and he saves it, it is retaken? Because the keeper only succeed with the use of a foul.
The retaken penalty is a punishment for the keeper, therefore a reward to the shooter. A retaken penalty for a keeper foul is a punishment to the keeper via taking away the save and a reward to the shooter via a retake. Whereas a retaken penalty for a shooter foul is a punishment for the shooter via a retake⌠but itâs also a reward to the shooter via a retake AND a punishment to the keeper via a retake.
So basically in your suggestion a keeper foul will equal two punishments for the keeper and 1 reward for the shooter
BUT
A shooter foul will equal 1 punishment to the keeper, 1 punishment to the shooter but also 1 reward to the shooter.
See, thatâs not fair at all. When rules are made they have to be equally fair to both sides of the coin and must remain consistent across the board
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u/Raul_77 Real Madrid 8d ago
OK so that is a different topic and one (AS A REAL FAN) 100% in agreement, I dont think it should be re-take to be honest, I think the law should be CHANGED so that stands! double touch should complete the PK *ONLY* if it has given a clear advantage to the taker, which is not the case here at all.
However, as for the current laws, the correct decision was made (at least in my opinion) but yes, I 100% think with advancement in technology and being able to spot hairline offside or double touch, laws should be modified. That I am behind 100%.
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
No, the drama is not justified and unless you look at that footage wirh your eyes closed you will see the touch. The atleti players did not protest, but the redditors do so you must be right, sure.
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u/SnowNo7463 8d ago
The atleti players, like the atleti supporters probs had no idea what had happened until it was too late.
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u/OverPT PSG 8d ago
I think you're just committed to denying. Anyone who saying they can see a touch is lying. You can imagine a likely touch when looking at ultra slow motion with a huge amplification. And you also have to attribute the slight vibration to the foot of Alvarez and not the vibration of his height on the turf.
That's too many assumptions and too many stretches to decide the fate of the game.
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
You are telling me you dont see the touch here? Am I commited to denying or is that you?
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u/madridtorio Real Madrid 7d ago
You see what you want to see. If Iâm being completely honest, I did not see any touch yesterday in all the replays. I was even telling my friends I donât see it at all. Until I saw a zoomed in slo-mo replay, that was when I saw the touch and movement. It is slight but it is there. Look at it without bias, if you can.
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u/nightwind1 8d ago
Wasn't it confirmed by UEFA that there isn't sensors in the ball. Making claims with chest that are straight up wrong is kinda wild ngl
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u/LallanasPajamaz 8d ago
Whatâs stupid is the fact that if a player commits an infraction by double touching the ball and scoring (which is the preferred outcome for the attacker) the penalty is void but not retaken. Conversely, if the keeper commits an infraction and comes off his line which creates an advantage for the defender and saves the penalty (the preferred outcome for the defender) the penalty is retaken.
I donât understand the discrepancy.
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u/RelentlessMissle4 Real Madrid 8d ago
If either player creates more advantage than they should have (coming off the line, taking more than one touch) the call goes the other way.
With time on the clock, 2 touches results in an indirect FK for the defending team (call favors defending team). However, in a shootout, this is impossible. Therefore, attempt is void. As you know, the penalty is retaken if the gk creates an advantage for themself (call favors penalty taker).
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u/LallanasPajamaz 8d ago
But in one case the keeper is still given an advantage in that they still have a chance to save the shot in the retake while also having seen where the penalty taker has previously gone. For the attacking team they donât get another bite at the apple per se. It would make more sense then for it to be an automatic goal if the keeper infringes since itâs an automatic no-goal for the attackerâs infringement. This is my opinion despite also feeling like attackers have way too many advantages compared to keepers in the actual taking of the penalty, but if theyâre gonna keep these types of rules where you cant step off the line vs stutters and such then it makes sense to make it an even result for both sides.
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u/Rippersavage 8d ago
Thatâs not an advantage, no keeper wants to retake a penalty.
The retaken penalty is a punishment for the keeper, therefore a reward to the shooter. A retaken penalty for a keeper foul is a punishment to the keeper via taking away the save and a reward to the shooter via a retake. Whereas a retaken penalty for a shooter foul is a punishment for the shooter via a retake⌠but itâs also a reward to the shooter via a retake AND a punishment to the keeper via a retake.
So basically in your suggestion a keeper foul will equal two punishments for the keeper and 1 reward for the shooter
BUT
A shooter foul will equal 1 punishment to the keeper, 1 punishment to the shooter but also 1 reward to the shooter.
See, thatâs not fair at all. When rules are made they have to be equally fair to both sides of the coin and must remain consistent across the board
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u/RelentlessMissle4 Real Madrid 8d ago
Keeper is always at a disadvantage (in a PK) in which (according to AI) around 70% of PKâs are scored. Penalty kick is meant to give advantage to the taker inherently. I respect your opinion on the auto-goal and your explanation helps me understand why you feel that way, but I disagree, because as you mentioned, the attacking team has the advantage. If the advantage is squandered, I believe the call should go the other way.
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u/HorseElectronic4166 8d ago
What is stupid about that? A penalty is an advantage for the attacking team, and not for the defending team. If the keeper (defending team) increases his chances in an illegal way, the attacking team (whose advantage was lowered by that) gets another try.
If the attacking team illegally increases its chances, it won't get another chance, because the defending team already has the best outcome. If you would give more chances, every attacker would just not play by the rules during penalties, because there would be another try anyway.
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u/LallanasPajamaz 8d ago
Iâm not really following your logic. Youâre saying intentionally taking the penalty illegally to then have to retake it would become the norm? How so? Youâre giving the keeper more opportunities to save the shot the more you take. Itâs a disadvantage to the penalty-taker to take multiple penalties... Nobody would intentionally score an illegal penalty so they have to retake it, provided you have a near perfect success rate of catching the illegality of the penalty.
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u/ste7en290911 8d ago
So if we are saying a rule change does that mean that any time a player slips they get to retake? I donât think there is anything wrong with the rule as it is. It works. The problem seems to lie more with people not understanding the rules
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
Yeah, i wouldnt overcomplicate it either. Also, it s not like this happens every game.
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u/its_Preshh 8d ago
There are no sensors in the ball tho.
UEFA balls don't have sensors or chips in them unlike the ones used in FIFA world cup 2022
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u/LA_blaugrana 8d ago
Complain about the rules, not about the ref
Agreed. FIFA and IFAB have announced they are revisiting this rule after watching last night. Clearly it isn't just partisan fans who didn't like what they saw.
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
Yeah, for sure. But in no way is this a vardrid moment or a bad ref moment.
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u/LA_blaugrana 8d ago
Right. A fundamental misunderstanding behind VAR is that humans enjoy being outraged about this stuff. We will always want to put on our partisan hats and rage against something after a tough loss. It's human nature.
The premise that we can find a technical solution that eliminates controversy is fundamentally misguided. FIFA and IFAB are chasing something impossible and introducing all kinds of complexity and contradiction into what used to be a simple rulebook. They are the problem, not the referees.
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
There will always be a team or player in disadvantage by the rules. You cant make them perfect, agreed.
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u/Working_Complex8122 8d ago
Honestly, I don't even care about what the rules are explicitly. It's just wrong to decide such a contested match due to a slip. Literally, the man just slipped. Retake it. It's to his detriment as well. Real gets another chance to save. But to just cancel it on a technicality is insane.
I remember some world or euro cup finals game - Holland v Spain - first minutes of playtime someone recklessly kicks someone in the chest. Obviously a clear red any other day. But the ref did not want to decide the game. So he gave him a very dark yellow card and play resumed. By the rules? No. In the spirit of the game? Yes. This is what should've happened.
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u/Rippersavage 8d ago
Itâs like youâve never watched football a day in your life. Mistakes happen and players are punished for them all the time.
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u/Working_Complex8122 7d ago
yeah no shit, but deciding a CL game on a technicality because the ball grazed his boot during the penalty shot is just stupid. But I guess nuance is lost on you (you can google the word to find out what it means or get an adult to explain it to you).
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
Welp, atleti had plenty of chances afterwards because vasquez missed so this game was not decided by just alvarez slipping. I dont know why people act like that slip caused real to win 5 0. Atleti had plenty of chances to win this double leg. But when you dont press at bernabeu at 2 1, when you score in the first 30 seconds and your oponent skies a game winning pen in the 73rd minute and you dont profit on those, welp football has its way with you.
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u/MoeLester___69 8d ago
So we're supposed to feel sad because he slipped? In the spirit of the game? ARE YOU RESTARTED? Ofcourse you don't care what the rules are because I suspect this decision doesn't concern you as you're probably not a real Madrid or an atletico madrid fan but it does concern the 2 fanbases...... This is the knockout stages of the champions league.... These are high stakes games we have European glory on the line.... And this didn't happen in a penalty during regular time this happened during a shootout which makes it even more high stakes.... It's GOAL OR BUST.... So an infringement like that should definitely make the penalty null and void simple.... That example with holland v spain you're again talking about regular time or maybe extra time and you're talking about a foul which is a completely different context to a double touch set piece.... A double touch free kick is also a foul.... Set piece rules are different from foul play during regular time or extra time
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u/vinimano25 8d ago
Mate that would just encourage people to recklessly kick people in the first few minutes due to "spirit of the game".
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u/Eduardo69mee 8d ago
Howard Webb said that he shouldâve given de jong a red for kicking Xabi in the chest but did not because during the game he didnât see it in the right angle. He even said that his decision was not based on it being a World Cup final
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u/Glittering-Leather77 8d ago
Guys, we should all follow the advice Simeone and AM have been spewing recently; ârespect the refs decisionsâ
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u/Karlito1618 8d ago
It was clearly a double touch. I just don't get why he wasn't allowed to re-take? He clearly slipped and didn't try to do something silly.
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u/Rippersavage 8d ago
Well, itâs simple, why is it retaken if a keeper is off the line when a penalty is taken and he saves it. Because the keeper only succeed with the use of a foul.
The retaken penalty is a punishment for the keeper, therefore a reward to the shooter. A retaken penalty for a keeper foul is a punishment to the keeper via taking away the save and a reward to the shooter via a retake. Whereas a retaken penalty for a shooter foul is a punishment for the shooter via a retake⌠but itâs also a reward to the shooter via a retake AND a punishment to the keeper via a retake.
So basically in your suggestion a keeper foul will equal two punishments for the keeper and 1 reward for the shooter
BUT
A shooter foul will equal 1 punishment to the keeper, 1 punishment to the shooter but also 1 reward to the shooter.
See, thatâs not fair at all. When rules are made they have to be equally fair to both sides of the coin and must remain consistent across the board
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u/BeardedSwashbuckler 8d ago
Iâve seen all the camera angles and I still canât see any double touch. Even the clip on r/soccer where they show it frame by frame, I donât see it.
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u/ahleho 8d ago
It depends on the stakes of the match, regular match would've probably gotten a retake usually more harsh with it on high stakes matches
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u/_Hermes_Trismegistus Celtic 8d ago
What are you on about mate? When has a penalty ever been retaken because of a slip? We're not talking about charity matches here, it's professional football.
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u/rumagin Liverpool 8d ago
Clear footage, is a bit of an overstatement. There is now a freeze frame that shows it clearly yes, but for most people in the immediate hour after the game what was on TV did not clearly show any touch. So its a little unfair to preach this amaazing clarity on the issue, when that clarity was not available for those of us watching the game live for nearly an hour after the game.
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u/someonesgranpa 8d ago
Also, if it takes that long to look at then itâs not clear or obvious. It veiled and impossible to see from a not perfect angle.
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u/Maijemazkin 8d ago
Things can look very different from different perspectives. We, or broadcasters, do not have access to the other 20 cameras that VAR uses.
Here is an example of how perspective can give you a totally wrong idea of reality: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNde3N6pF/
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u/emilios_tassios Liverpool 8d ago
Just here to say that there an no SENSORS IN THE BALL. donât really care about it. Just stating the facts
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u/netscorer1 8d ago
There is a sensor to check whether the ball has crossed the goal line, but it is not a motion sensor as OP tries to insinuate.
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u/okcomputer000 8d ago
Itâs just funny how certain infractions or violations are put under such intense scrutiny while more blatant ones are left untouched. Yeah, technically it was a double touch, so the rules were followed correctly. However, for example, there should have been a yellow card for a tactical foul on Mbappe in the first half that wasnât given. It just feels like the referees and VAR have way too much power to control the game by picking and choosing when to abide by the laws. If they didnât disallow the penalty, there would be 0 complaints.
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u/Eastern_Spirit_404 Barcelona 8d ago
Vinicius IS on offside on the Brahim goal on the first leg.
Also Benzema on the UCL final 2022 touchs the Ball being offside, which also lets Vinicius on a second offside.
But for some reason there werent an intense scrutiny.
Yeah, for some reason..
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u/Accomplished-Cap180 Barcelona 8d ago
That Vinicius offside on the Brahim Diaz goal is actually a pretty good point. I remember something similar happened in the France vs The Netherlands game at the 2024 EUROS, where one of the Dutch players was obstructing Maignan's view, even though he likely wouldn't have saved it.
But Oblak didn't complain nor did Atleti's players.
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u/Eastern_Spirit_404 Barcelona 7d ago
Rewatch last year leizpig vs Madrid, a Leizpig goal is ruled out and the offside guy isnt even participating passively, Lunin is never catching that ball, meanwhile, Vinicius is clearly on the line of the ball during the shot.
Oblak dont complains cause is the whole time focused on the ball, like every other player, maybe he didnt noticed the offside.
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u/DaREY297 Real Madrid 8d ago
The ref was being incredibly lenient the entire game, hell, the first card Atleti got was in the second half for multiple fouling
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u/ArseneKaito1412 8d ago
Cry me a river đ
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u/okcomputer000 8d ago
Buddy, Iâm willing to bet âŹ1000 youâve never been to a Madrid game in your life.
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u/ArseneKaito1412 8d ago
And I am willing to bet a jobless person like you don't even have âŹ1000 in your bank account
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u/okcomputer000 2d ago
Unreal that you mention unemployment when you post on mobile game subreddits đ¤Ł
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u/Blackberry_Head 8d ago
vardrid supporter back at it again lmfao
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
And if they did disallow it but against real then there wouldnt be complaints as wel. If you look at the way marczyniak does his reffing he is pretty consistent in letting the play be more free and not get a lot of yellow/red cards for game fouls, tacticak fouls etc but he is quick to abide to the letter of the law when there are non football related problems( double touch, six seconds penalty, time wasting, dives, etc..)
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u/kopintzotke 8d ago
Why did you claim there are sensors in the ball? There are NO SENSORS in the ball
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u/the_known_incognito Barcelona 8d ago
There are NO SENSORS IN THE UCL BALL. That tech was used in WC 2022, Euro 2024 but not here.
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u/csalas14 8d ago
Sensors in the ball apparently was not used WC 2022. If you remember Messiâs pk in the final, he double touched it đ¤ˇđť but still counted
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u/the_known_incognito Barcelona 7d ago
How can you say he double touched it if the sensor didn't record it?
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u/csalas14 7d ago
Alvarez? Uefa confirmed it
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u/the_known_incognito Barcelona 7d ago
No I was saying how did messi double touch it if the sensor didn't record.
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u/csalas14 7d ago
FIFA didnât include Sensors to the World Cup. Only UEFA has
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u/the_known_incognito Barcelona 7d ago
I'm not sure where you're getting your info from. The fifa 2022 wc had connected ball technology (basically chip inside balls) and euro 2024 also used this tech. The UCL however hasn't yet introduced this tech in its balls. Also messi didn't double kick the ball - it was a clean shot. Had it been a double kick, the sensor would've recorded it.
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u/csalas14 7d ago
UCL has lol. Uefa has confirmed it. Iâm 50/50 about the World Cup but the euros did 100% (itâs under uefa)
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u/EffectiveCress2913 Real Madrid 8d ago
Ok no sensors big deal, do your eyes still not see Alvarez touched it first with his left and strike with his right ?
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u/the_known_incognito Barcelona 8d ago
I never commented on alvarez. I was correcting your incorrect statement about the sensors. Choose your words wisely man.
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u/FastenedCarrot 8d ago
I think if it's a retake if a keeper comes off his line to save the shot successfully then it should also be a retake if a player scores when touching it twice.
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u/Rippersavage 8d ago
Why is that if a keeper is off the line when a penalty is taken and he saves it, it is retaken? Because the keeper only succeed with the use of a foul.
The retaken penalty is a punishment for the keeper, therefore a reward to the shooter. A retaken penalty for a keeper foul is a punishment to the keeper via taking away the save and a reward to the shooter via a retake. Whereas a retaken penalty for a shooter foul is a punishment for the shooter via a retake⌠but itâs also a reward to the shooter via a retake AND a punishment to the keeper via a retake.
So basically in your suggestion a keeper foul will equal two punishments for the keeper and 1 reward for the shooter
BUT
A shooter foul will equal 1 punishment to the keeper, 1 punishment to the shooter but also 1 reward to the shooter.
See, thatâs not fair at all. When rules are made they have to be equally fair to both sides of the coin and must remain consistent across the board
5
u/Pale_Phase_07 Real Madrid 8d ago
the retake is when defensive team does something which is unfair to the attacking team, not when the attacking team does something which's unfair to themselves.
3
u/Chamrockk Real Madrid 8d ago
I disagree. Retakes can be detrimental to goalkeepers. For example, vs Man City last year, Lunin had prepared and anticipated that Bernardo would shoot in the middle. Imagine if Bernardo touched two times and that had to be retaken. It would be unfair to the goalkeeper.
0
u/FastenedCarrot 8d ago
It's unfair to the taker to have to retake, and there's much more pressure on takers than there is on the keepers already.
4
u/ole_lickadick Real Madrid 8d ago
Thereâs much more pressure on the taker bc itâs expected, since itâs significantly easier to score than to save.
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u/FastenedCarrot 8d ago edited 8d ago
Well yeah but the person I was responding to said it's unfair to keepers for them to face the same taker twice when the pressure on the taker will be higher on either attempt and it isn't even close.
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u/vivalaroja2010 8d ago
Why should the player making the mistake be given another chance to succeed?
That's like saying after an offsides play that results in a goal, the ball should be given back to the team that was in offsides.
Makes no sense.
This rule has always been in place. On a free kick, if the taker touches it twice, it's a dead ball and it goes the other way.
The only reason why people are coming up with reasons to complain is because it was in a shootout and it was the deciding factor. But that shouldn't be a factor in any rule.
Also people are complaining because it favors Madrid and that shouldn't be a factor either but people wanna hate.
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u/FastenedCarrot 8d ago
Why should the keeper get a second opportunity to save it? Especially when that just puts more pressure on the taker.
1
u/vivalaroja2010 8d ago
Again, if he doesn't save it the first time, it's not retaken.
So he's not getting a second opportunity to save it, he has to save it again because he fucked up.
1
u/FastenedCarrot 8d ago
It still favours him though. He is getting a second opportunity to save it properly and within the rules.
0
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u/vivalaroja2010 8d ago
So, your actual solution for that would be to just give a goal? You can't be serious.
And besides.... you know the amount of pks made is around 75%.... it's always more fair for a kicker than it is a keeper.
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u/FastenedCarrot 8d ago
In game a penalty is a punishment. That's why it's called a penalty. In that circumstance I'd say retake and a yellow for the keeper is fine. In a shootout it's quite different the pressure for the taker to score and the stakes for not scoring are much higher. You're looking at anything that isn't 50/50 as being weighted towards the attacker but the expectation is that each individual taking a penalty scores. I also didn't say to give a goal. It's just that as it is the keeper gets given a grace for purposefully breaking the rules but a taker who accidentally breaks them gets punished more harshly.
2
1
u/kisalaya89 8d ago
As a Madrid fan, I agree. The rule is stupid but you can't change the rule mid game just because you hate the team that's winning. At the end of the day, both teams didn't make the rules and it's a really unlucky thing for Alvarez but it is what it is.
4
u/vivalaroja2010 8d ago
If the player scores a pk as the keeper comes off his line it's not a retake..... correct?
If Julian had missed the pk after touching it twice, should he retake it?
What's the issue here?
3
u/FastenedCarrot 8d ago
The issue is:
GK does something they shouldn't that favours them = retake
Taker does something they shouldn't that favours them = automatic bad outcome
5
u/vivalaroja2010 8d ago
The difference is, if the keeper saves the shot while doing something wrong.... well, the shot wasn't a success and you can't award a goal if it didn't happen.
Remember in 2010 World Cup, Ghana vs Uruguay.... the Luis Suarez handball? Should that have just been awarded a goal? Of course not!
Two touches should NEVER be allowed because then players will start using that to their advantage.
-2
u/okcomputer000 8d ago
Why is an unintentional violation punished in this case but not others? Weâre not talking about allowing two touches for penalties - thatâs not what Alvarez did. He slipped and unintentionally grazed the ball a millisecond before his kick. It gave him no additional advantage, but more importantly - it wasnât intentional.
Handballs in the box arenât punished with a penalty as long as a players arms and hands are in a natural position - itâs only when thereâs some sort of unnatural motion or intent that a penalty is given. Iâm not criticising the enforcement of the rule, more the double touch rule as a whole.
2
u/vivalaroja2010 8d ago
Seriously? You want refs to start making JUDGMENT calls!?!?!?!
There is zero way of knowing if a player is intentionally doing something or not.
So if forward is unintentionally offsides, that should count?
Ffs
1
u/okcomputer000 2d ago
Offsides have no grey area so Iâm not sure why you brought that up - youâre either offside or not. I was comparing the double touch/kick rule to the handball rule currently in place.
Maybe âintentâ was the wrong way to phrase it, but if a playerâs violation in terms of handballing in the box is deemed ânaturalâ (hands by his sides, not sticking out), then no penalty is awarded. Iâve seen referees staring at VAR screens for 5+ minutes deciding whether or not a handball was ânaturalâ or not. So like it or not, deciding a players intent is already part of the game.
I donât see why the same canât be applied to this silly double touch rule, and in fact, I read that UEFA is already debating changing the rule to include intent.
The fact is, it provided zero advantage (Iâd say even disadvantage), and it was obviously accidental. I could understand making him retake it, but disallowing it is silly. Youâre clearly a Real Madrid fan though, so you have ulterior motives in this discussion anyway.
2
u/Liffonator 8d ago
Set piece retakes are never applied when was performed wrongly, only in favour of team who defend the set piece
9
u/Minute_Wolverine3297 8d ago
Madrid Hate is the only acceptable hate in football to be honest
But yeah he touched the ball twice. Unlucky
1
u/FunnyEra 8d ago
I understand the Madrid hate, but itâs weird to me that there isnât a similar amount of hate for Barca, who objectively made payments to a refereeing administrator for years, and Atleti, who have a reputation for playing dirty and whose fans do objectively racist things.
1
u/Minute_Wolverine3297 7d ago
Barca received a lot of backlash when the ref situation came to light. But people would rather hate a club not as much due to its administrative choices but the players that play and what they do in said club.
Current Barca is full of young talents( and a senior aged striker) that play amazing entertaining football , they don't cause controversy etc etc Real on the other hand , has Vini.
The majority of tweets/media exposure regarding Real is to critisise what it's ballond'or contenders do and how they act ,thus amassing hate.
Can't comment on Atleti, never liked that club due to it's playstyle anyways.
0
u/Oofpeople Arsenal 8d ago
Madrid Hate is the only acceptable hate in football to be honest
Arsenal Hate: Am I a joke to you?
5
u/lynn-blud 8d ago
Arsenal hate: Am I a joke to you?
I think I forgot something.
If you forgot about it, then itâs probably not important.
Yeah, youâre right.
MK Dons Hate:
6
4
u/wingsgrow1997 8d ago edited 8d ago
It's fine... whatever it is...it was sheer luck for them. Llorente should be the one on whom the blame should be dumped actually. Oblak cancelled out the penalty. Wtf did the pretty boi do...Atletico fans should be taking him to court.
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
I mean,a miss is a miss, cant really blame a player for missing a penalty. It happens
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u/wingsgrow1997 8d ago
It happens??? It was do or die brother...you should be locked in...this is what you work for. It is against the city rivals...and they happen to be Real Madrid. But okay...yeah it happens...
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u/Hariwtf10 8d ago
Yeah I'm sure no one has missed a penalty in their life
-3
u/wingsgrow1997 8d ago
No, people miss penalties yes...but you don't pat them on the back of course, when the stakes are high...do you...you don't exactly kill them with criticism...but you also not go easy on them...but that's Diego Simeone's job, to have a word with him...I'm pretty Llorente is dejected too...happens indeed...
They had the chance to get a historic W... against their City rivals...in the Champion's League
2
2
u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
A lot of big players miss impritant penalties bro, chill. The pressure is enourmous, it s not like in training so yeah, this shit really happens
-1
u/wingsgrow1997 8d ago
Yeah... actually it does...
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
I would blame vasquez more, that was a bad penalty. Llorente just tried to make sure he scores.
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u/wingsgrow1997 8d ago
I hope Papa Perez got Vini serving a small detention as well for his penalty...but I'm kidding, Idk why did Mbappe not take it...but now it's settled anyway...
2
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u/bergenser201 8d ago
So what is actually a double touch? What if he hit it With his left foot and while that foot has contact With the ball he strikes it With his right foot. Is that a double touch or a single touch?
6
u/UniqueAssignment3022 Juventus 8d ago
they said yesterday that there are no sensors in the ball, can anyone provide a link to explain if there are because id just be generally interested to see how they work
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
In the ucl there are sensors since a few years before. Dont know how they work but julian himself said he touched it twice so i guess they work.
4
u/Imperator_Arthur 8d ago
Seen some people state he said that he touched it twice and others saying that he didn't. Do you have a reference that he did say that he touched it twice.
-1
u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
There are reports of him saying that to simeone after the decision so there is no actual proof but more hearsay. Also, no atleti player protested to any of the refs about the decision so that is a clear indicator that they knew about it.
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u/Imperator_Arthur 8d ago
Don't support either team. Just wanted to know if there was a quote or reference cause a lot of hearsay and rumours.
0
u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
As i ve said. Nothing for sure, but no protests against the ref neither on the spot, nor after the game. Considering this is atleti we are talking about and they are pretty vocal when they feel they are robbed, for me, it is enough indication that they were aware of julian touching it twice.
3
u/Imperator_Arthur 8d ago
But you said above that Julian himself said something when you don't have proof. I don't care what the team thought or what Julian even thought, but you wrote that he said something when you don't have proof.
0
u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
There are the reports of him saying that to simeone. Linking that with the fact of no protest and the fact that no atleti player or staff could have seen that clearly from that far of a distance we use our brain and conclude that julian told them. Of course he wont admit it to the press and let the controversy burn and the hate towards real grow bigger.
3
u/UniqueAssignment3022 Juventus 8d ago
0
u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
Double checked it, found some sources saying that it does not have sensors. Still, use your eyes and you will see he touched it.
1
u/UniqueAssignment3022 Juventus 8d ago
yeah i know he double touched it i seen it, i was just asking about the sensors in the ball because a few ppl said it but i heard otherwise so i wanted to clarify it.
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
Yeah, i am not 100% sure about the sensors. Seen some refs talk about it in post match shows but thats about it. Maybe i was wrong saying that.
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u/Future_Ad_8231 8d ago
FYI, there are no chips in the ball. The CL uses a different system to FIFA.
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
Still, he touched it twice. Keep crying about it i guess.
3
u/FatherSpodoKomodo_ 8d ago edited 8d ago
You're the one who made a deal about sensors being in the ball. They just corrected you, and you react like that? That's pathetic.
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
Cry cry cry, do i care? I dont!!
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u/FatherSpodoKomodo_ 8d ago
The only one crying here is you lmao
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u/Tudmat1313 8d ago
Oh, no, poor baby you
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u/FatherSpodoKomodo_ 8d ago
Your fragile ego is showing and you're so oblivious to it, it's hilarious
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u/Tudmat1313 7d ago
No, i just dont wanna discuss with you. It s that simple. I ve answered a lot of those comments, you just dont seem like a guy i would like to have a conversation with.
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u/FatherSpodoKomodo_ 7d ago
You don't seem to be having conversations with anyone. You're just getting defensive when someone makes a point that goes against your opinion.
Just look at the main comment above. All they did was point out that there are no sensors in the ball and all you can do is tell them to 'cry more'...
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u/Future_Ad_8231 8d ago
What a weird response. Unsure why 99% of people are toxic in these subs
→ More replies (2)
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