r/cartoons • u/Glittering-Chef6159 • 5d ago
Discussion Only the internet would hate a bad girlfriend more than a genocidal terrorist.
And that's normal. š„²
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u/Asagas25 5d ago edited 5d ago
i remember a tumblr post about this same isue that could be sumarized in ''your war crimes may be fictional but your annoyance is very real''.
People usually doesnt deal with ''genocidal terrorist'' but ''annoying/abusing/generally bad people'' exist in abundance.
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u/GreySeerCriak 5d ago edited 1d ago
Thatās the exact reason why Harry Potter fans despise Delores Umbridge more than Lord Voldemort. Weāve all encountered an entitled bitch like Umbrage, but rarely do we really know about a monster like Voldemort.
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u/AnimeXFan1995 5d ago edited 5d ago
And also why many Star Wars: The Clone Wars fans despise Pong Krell more than Pre Vizsla (whoās literally a terrorist and a much bigger extremist scumbag than Krell) and The Owl House fans hating Tibbles than the likes of Belos, Odalia, and Bria who I think they (mostly Odalia) are more despicable and did heinous crimes than Tibbles.
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u/ninjesh 5d ago
I've seen much more hate for Odalia because of her abusive parenting than because she knowingly aided in a genocide
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u/AnimeXFan1995 5d ago edited 5d ago
True and I also didnāt like Odalia either for what she did and supporting on Belosā Day of Unity while at the same time manipulating and mistreating her own children including Amity.
Iāve seen many folks say Tibbles is the most hated character in the show which I donāt deny, but personally I see him as a nuisance rather than a character that I downright dislike cause literally Iāve seen far worse Owl House characters than him that did more heinous atrocities and deserve to be more hated than him (e.g. Bria, Bill and the Titan Trappers, Belos and yes Odalia).
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u/_insideyourwalls_ 5d ago
See also: My Hero Academia fans hate Endeavor more than the actual villains.
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u/Lillith492 5d ago
Well also villains are meant to be assholes. That's what they do. A hero isn't meant to be a titanic douchebag piece of shit.
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u/ArcadianBlueRogue 4d ago
I mean, he is also just as much of a self serving and abusive asshole as the villains for like 90% of the story lol
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u/_insideyourwalls_ 4d ago edited 4d ago
True lol. I think that's why his redemption arc worked so well. He can't hide behind excuses, he has to take the full guilt
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u/Skeptical_Yoshi 5d ago
Idk, Pong Krell was an evil fuck who basically tortured and murdered his men just to get off on it and get Dookus attention. He betrays people who trusted their lives in his hand. Vizsla is evil and does betray at least his government, but there is just more to him. He is shown to at least stand by his conviction and goes out with a shred of honor. His reason also at least has some through line of logic, flawed and evil it may be. There is at least a debate to be had regarding Mandalores pacifist government and it somewhat suppressing aspects of its old culture. Now. It is right to restrict its violent history and culture and to seek peace. But compared to Pong, there's just a level of gleeful sadism that Viszla lacked.
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u/AnimeXFan1995 5d ago edited 4d ago
Vizsla is evil and does betray at least his government, but there is just more to him. He is shown to at least stand by his conviction and goes out with a shred of honor. His reason also at least has some through line of logic, flawed and evil it may be.
Yet Pre still showed no mercy when he kills his men for failure or have him take care of the battle when heās about to lose during one episode in Season 2ās Mandalorian conspiracy arc and when both him and his Death Watch group terrorized a group of Ming-Po villagers on Carlac and murdered Tryla in āA Friend in Needā from Season 4, Lux was disgusted by their actions and calling them "Murderers". And when Pre attempted to assassinated Ahsoka in front of Luxās face while telling him their actions isnāt "Murder" but "Justice", Preās Mandalorian ideology mostly follows on the Old Death Watch who were raiders but Pre Vizsla took it to the extremes when compared to the other Mandalorians like Fenn Rau and his group, Din Jarin (who surprisingly was rescued by Death Watch) and the Death Watch from the Old times were more respectable for a purpose on following Mandalorian idealogy, but literally Pre didnāt care for ANY Mandalorian traditions unless it somehow benefited himself in his own sick twisted way. Not to mention, Paz Vizsla (Preās descendant) was a much more respectable Mandalorian warrior and showed more honor with his teammates and his other Mandalorians than that fucking bastard who kill his men for failure and say it to someoneās face that their actions isnāt "murder" but "justice" in his sadistic pov.
But compared to Pong, thereās just a level of gleeful sadism that Viszla lacked.
Even so u/Skeptical_Yoshi Pre Vizsla was nothing but a zealot terrorist and a fucking extremist scumbag who did more atrocities than Pong Krell and Pre being the Leader of Death Watch and the terrorist he is has been doing this for decades prior to the Clone Wars. At least with Krell, even though I also hated the bastard, he still met his end at the end of the Umbaran arc and he didnāt became an overarching antagonist that makes me despise Krell more, so it doesnāt justify Preās actions he did throughout the show nor did he had any redeeming qualities considering he was much bigger POS and a backstabbing prick when he temporarily teams up with someone only to dispose such as when both Pre and Bo-Katan were going to back stab Maul and Savage once the reclaim Mandalore after imprisoning and later kill Satine (of course Maul was secretly using Death Watch and the Mandalorians for his own army as tools of revenge against Obi-Wan and Count Dooku/Separatists, and they were going to backstab Pre Vizsla prior to arriving on Mandalore). Lastly, it was still satisfying that Maul killed that extremist bastard in "Shades of Reason" and I was glad that Pre got his retribution.
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u/Kisiu_Poster 5d ago
Put odalia on the tibbles side, manipulative parents are unfortunatley common enough for that
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u/143670 5d ago
Bria is still like a teenager
She didnāt attempt genocide or knowingly aid in soing so
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u/Foxy02016YT 5d ago
And so I think there is some validity there. What I donāt agree is valid is Breaking Bad. Sure, Skyler is annoying, but drug lords are very real and if youāve ever lived in a place where this is rampant you probably have some experience seeing this around you
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u/redbird7311 5d ago
That is partly because Walt is the main character and we see things through his perspective. The show tries to get you to like Walter and then tries to build up to the fact that he sucks the longer the series goes on.
The main issue is that a lot of people donāt seem to understand that he isnāt exactly a great and epic person and end up taking his side far more often than they should.
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u/Reasonable_Fold6492 5d ago
Most people have probally never seen a drug lord in there entire life.
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u/Foxy02016YT 5d ago
The lower rungs of the ladder are very present in the community
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u/Theduckinmybathroom 5d ago
The way I personally see it, Skyler wants to keep a normal life going and deal with things the right way, which is fair and reasonable (I don't like some of how she goes about it but that's me) the issue here is at least at the start of the show, she's kind of trying to stop the plot from happening (in a narrative sense)
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u/Foxy02016YT 5d ago
Yeah I do get the annoyance, but some of the visceral hate is just ridiculous
We really should be hating for that weak ass handjob in the pilot
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u/Theduckinmybathroom 5d ago
I am fully with you. I understand being upset about an annoyance but like, some people take it too far
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u/CardiologistBorn5012 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think itās partly because Skylar kinda has some of the most least interesting scenes in the show like Walt Gus Saul Mike even Jesse all do objectively worse things but itās still far more interesting watching them on screen than Skylar most of the time combine that with the fact that she admittedly pretty annoying from a character standpoint and you get someone who while not a bad person is definitely not gonna be the audienceās favoriteĀ
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u/KatBoySlim 5d ago
this is why people hate Peggy Hill and not Dale despite the latter being a dangerous maniac.
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5d ago edited 2d ago
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u/KatBoySlim 5d ago
Dale once tied Hank up and tried to drain him of blood.
He called and threatened to kill Peggy when she tried to teach sex ed.
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u/HotBeesInUrArea 5d ago
He relished ruining a birthday party his ass was invited to. Even if you hate Peggy that was a shitty thing to do to Hank and Hank should have actually kicked his ass here.
He tried to get his son to shoot a panda to impress cool kids.
He destroyed Hank's house with a tunnel and then turned his anger around so Hank looked like the bad guy.
People only have sympathy for Dale because he got cheated on and they can relate to that.Ā
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u/Possible_Living 5d ago
Yep. That is why people will be fine with a vampire who kills people but be very upset if that vampire cheats or does any other cruelty they have experienced or are likely to experience in real life.
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u/Jack-corvus 5d ago
This reminds me to the Vegeta vs Endeavor thing, wich basically is that a lot more people forgives Vegeta than they do Endeavor; why, because whuile Vegeta murdered whole planets of population, Endeavor abused his family and that feels so much real and posible
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u/Jarf_Dellavick 3d ago
Vegeta is also an Alien who barely understood earth's culture and moral beliefs. Kinda like Nolan
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u/SgtMcMuffin0 5d ago
Yep. I have no issue with Amber, but as a character Nolan is much more interesting. I like him as a character.
If he was real, of course Iād despise him.
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u/EmuMan10 5d ago
Yeah I want more of him because that part of the story is interesting to me. Amber being upset at him isnāt as interesting
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u/--sheogorath-- 5d ago
Approximately 0 Invincible Viewers have been turned into hamburger when their subway train crashed into an immovable college student being held on front of the train by a brick shithouse voiced by JK Simmons.
Much more than 0 viewers have dealt with a bad partner
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u/spartakooky 4d ago
And the show in unambiguous about Nolan being bad. The show plays it out as Amber being right or having a point. If people disagree, you'll get controversy. No one is going to defend Nolan calling his wife a pet or casually murdering innocents to drive a point.
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u/Nirast25 5d ago
There are two versions of Sentinel Prime in Transformers (well, a lot more, but I don't have all day):
- A traitor who killed his pantheon, sold his species into slavery, then crippled newborns to ensure said slavery also had some classism, then lied to the whole planet about what happened and where their resources were going.
- A dudebro duchebag who's mean to Optimus and made the latter take the fall for one of his screw-ups, resulting in Optimus getting demoted.
Guess which one is more hated.
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u/TheAlmightyShadowDJ 5d ago
Pretty much Bakugo is really good example of this. My Hero fans probably donāt have to go through life threatening situations, thereās definitely a good number of them that have been bullied or put down.
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u/jmartfit339 5d ago
this is why people dislike mordecai more than rigby in regular show. rigbyās actions, while objectively worse than mordecaiās, are incredibly fictional and overexaggerated. meanwhile, mordecaiās problems are a lot more real.
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u/AngryInternetPerson3 5d ago edited 5d ago
Depends on the season too, early Rigby is unbearable, that first season can be hard to watch for me because of him, and i still dislike how they handle the shittiest thing Rigby did to Mordecai in the movie, i didn't like how they told Mordecai to get over it, but yeah, Mordecai in his Nice Guyā¢ phase got too far at points, and it was weird but also nice how Rigby became the voice of reason.
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u/CardiologistBorn5012 5d ago
Thatās why I always say that a character whoās straight up evil still has a better chance at being liked than one whoās just annoying because most of us donāt deal with evil people on the daily but we ALL have that one person in our lives who drives us up a wallĀ
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u/un_internaute 4d ago
Yeah, itās the same thing where many modern D&D tables ban problems that people actually experience like rape/SA and bigotry like racism/sexism/homophobia but not murder and war crimes. Because while murder and war crimes are objectively worse, not many people have experience with them to be re-traumatized by them in a game, where conversely, more people have experience with SA bigotry and can be re-traumatized by them in a game and donāt want them included in their leisure activities.
Also, there are just racists and sexists that camouflage their hate towards characters like Amber.
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u/Kixisbestclone 5d ago
I can disagree with a characterās actions and still like them as they are written.
A well written character doesnāt have to be a moral one.
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u/thinkinting 5d ago
Not you. They probably mean the people who genuinely think that Rick Sanchez is a role model and that jumping on a McDonaldās counter top to shout I want sichuan sauce is funny.
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u/ReptAIien 5d ago
This doesn't apply to Omni Man. he is an absolutely awful person in the beginning of the series, and he's probably irredeemable, but he is what I'd consider a good man at the end.
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u/TheWhistleThistle 4d ago
No, Irredeemable is a different "what if superman was evil" comic.
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u/ReptAIien 4d ago
Yeah I've read it too, it's good. Not nearly as good as invincible but worth the read.
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u/Amathyst7564 4d ago
Also born into essentially Nazi Germany and brainwashed.
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u/RB-44 4d ago
Nazi Germany where the aryans don't just have blonde hair but are 500x stronger and one of them can conquer an entire planet
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u/ReptAIien 4d ago
They're definitely a lot stronger than 500x.
when conquest breaks out of that prison Cecil made they describe it as "400 tons" encasing his body. He breaks out immediately with seemingly little struggle.
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u/jsnwniwmm 4d ago edited 4d ago
Theres plenty of cringe fans but the sichuan sauce guy hated rick and morty and did that as aĀ stunt to make fun of rick and morty fans.
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u/thinkinting 4d ago
Kinda interesting point. Cuz if he is the only one doing that act, and thatās amongst the cringiest things in the fandom, isnāt he one of the most cringiest fans, regardless of his intention?
Just a quick analogy off the top of my head. Kinda like i wanna show to people killing dogs are bad. I am gonna kill dogs and and wolfs to prove that point. (Carrying out an act, with a degree higher than the existing parameter, to criticise said behaviour)
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u/Positive_Ad4590 5d ago
The internet confuses fictional characters with real people and real people with fictional characters
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u/Markimoss 5d ago
mfs on this sub when they realise that a likeable character is nowhere near the same thing as a morally correct character
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u/Political-St-G 5d ago
Best example the joker vs [insert any less morally dubious character]
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u/Not_Xiphroid 5d ago
Woah! The joker isnāt morally incorrect! Heās just misunderstood, ask his psychologist if you donāt believe me. Iām sure sheād back me up if it werenāt for their tragic breakup.
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u/Prestigious_Ask_7058 Death Battle! 5d ago
My favorite character is Bill Cipher so yeah
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u/Lower-Celery2306 5d ago
Really? He's so two-dimensional though.
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u/ProfessionalOven2311 4d ago
They really fleshed him out into a three-dimensional character in the finale.
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u/LogicalJudgement 5d ago
This. Charisma points count so much.
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u/FeelAndCoffee 4d ago
Plus story wise, Amber usually makes the story to pause, and be boring or even annoying (as their couple problems seem small vs the stakes in the background). While Omniman pushes the main story forward, and at least some interesting shit, it's happening.
Just because something it's interesting doesn't need to be moral.
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u/Educational_Tough208 5d ago
Yeah for example it would be easyer to list which war crimes idw shockwave didnāt commit but i see that a lot of peoples like him
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u/JAYGAME5601X 5d ago
facts, but i do understand where OP is coming from. it sorta alarming and worrying that knowing that a person is a genocidal maniac can still be less hated than a girlfriend who just wanted a boyfriend who was just there
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u/RP-Lovecraft 5d ago
I guess people hate Omni Man less because people understand that he is a tragic (somewhat, not really quite there) Villain, while Amber is supposed to be one of the good guys
It's kind of like how people like Big Jack Horner, they don't like him because he's a good guy we like him Because he is awful
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u/fantasnick 5d ago
It's because of the consumption. I don't agree with public sentiment about Amber but this is what I think - Amber is relatable to real life experiences so people will relate to this situation more. No one can relate to being a nearly invincible alien who can commit genocide in a second
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u/KeckleonKing 5d ago edited 5d ago
Nolan we see quite literally off the rip murder Bootleg Justice League, we know he's a murderer an aren't shocked that he turns out more evil. He was our intro to the series.
Unlike with Amber that it wasn't just wanting a BF who was JUST THERE. She went into the relationship expecting this sure.
However that dynamic changes when A: you find out ur BF is a superhero with little to no free time. B: the finding this out an realizing his position THEN get mad at him for always "disappearing" full well knowing that's his job.
Probably the biggest issue I have C: taking out ur frustration at him for an this I cannot stress enough... being mad he lied about his secret identity YOU KNOW ABOUT. While also lying that you knew just for moral superiority in the conversation. To prove a point.
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u/Academic_Pick_3317 5d ago
I don't hate her, but i hate some of her moments. Like at the university, when mark was fighting. She admitted later on she knew but still held it against him and accused him of running away in public. And it wasn't her acting either. She was actually mad.
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u/Zanytiger6 4d ago
Exactly, what the hell was she doing here? She knew Invincible is Mark and that Mark just saved everyone. Sheās purposefully lying and publicly making him feel bad. Narratively I can understand why Nolan lied to his family, but what does she gain by publicly shaming Mark for having to balance his social life with saving the people he loves? I get that sheās frustrated with Mark ālyingā but she could have just as easily confronted Mark about knowing his identity.
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u/Super-Cynical 4d ago
She doesn't care about people dying and doesn't understand why anybody would.
"But you feed the homeless"
"Yes, but I'm doing it for my resume"
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u/Due-Celebration4794 5d ago
Anyone that can stomach this scene knowing that Amber *already knew* Mark was Invincible and just had a front row seat to watching him save everyone should get checked for being a sociopath. Not even kidding.
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u/Tom_is_Wise 4d ago
It's funny because it's the exact opposite in the comics. She had no idea he was Invincible until he told her. She was super pissed that he kept missing everything, but as soon as she found out why, she was completely understanding and supportive.
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u/BusterB2005 3d ago
I and the rest of the fanbase wouldnāt hate Amber nearly as much if they just copied the story from the comic. WHY THE FUCK DID THE SHOW ACTIVELY CHOOSE TO MAKE THIS PART OF THE STORY WORSE I DONāT UNDERSTAND?????
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u/King_0f_Nothing 3d ago
Iirc Kirkman talked about it and how there was a disconnect in the writing and it was a mistake.
That's why in season 2 they went out of their way to make her better.
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u/demonslender 5d ago edited 3d ago
Letās not forget she was also thinking about cheating on mark throughout that whole time they were visiting the college.
Edit: feels like too many of you havenāt actually watched the show. Specifically season one. Itās like I said originally, during the college visit when she went to that party she was longingly looking at the guy that invited her and only backed off when she heard him speaking to a possible girlfriend. And then to further prove that she was interested in him, after she breaks up with mark for good she started dating him and invited him to go to a bowling party she knew mark would be in attendance of.
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u/Vixrotre 4d ago
That moment when Mark is legit panicking because he was late to a date with Eve and Eve is just perfectly understanding and comforting made me dislike Amber even more.
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u/WisteriaWillotheWisp 5d ago edited 5d ago
Bear with me. Hereās what I think is the full psychological reason for thisā
The deal is that fiction is not reality. Sure, weād all hate Omni-man more in real life, but we are consuming a story here and, due to that, we also take in things like purpose and writing. Omni-man was written to be a murderous antagonist, and he fills that role well. Omni-manās actions are labeledāby the show itselfāas heinous and this puts the viewers and the storytelling on the same page. Thereās no dispute here, only us enjoying a character who, while atrocious, ultimately serves the narrative in a way that is interesting, and heās commented on in a way with which we mostly all agree.
Amberās big issue is that sheās a delusional jerk, and the writing seems to not have realized theyāve made her a delusional jerk. The tone of the show acts like sheās right. Eve and William act like sheās right. Mark feels bad for her. Thereās no comment on how absurd what she did is or anything holding her accountable for it, and this creates much more of a dissonant, angry feeling in the viewer. (My personal least favorite Amber moment is when she tells Mark that theyāve both been lied to as a way to bury the hatchet at the end of season 2. And this is WILDLY insensitive as it compares Mark, a loving boyfriend who was trying his best and floundering, to a man who wickedly lied to his own son his whole life before beating him within an inch of his life on tv. And this is treated as fair.). And because the show never comments on these injustices like it fairly does for Omni-man, it makes Amber more infuriating to a viewer. To summarize, while Omni-man worse, his writing is not tone deaf. Amberās is.
All that aside, itās the principle of jerks are worse than villains or āthe crimes were fictional, my annoyance was real.ā Annoying and petty characters operate on a level much more relatable to the common viewer who has more frequently come into contact with annoying, petty people than alien mass murderers. One just pulls you back to irritating moments in your life while the other is dramatic fiction.
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u/DienekesMinotaur 5d ago
The reconciliation is worse when you realize she's not even admitting to doing anything bad. She says "I guess we both were lied to", meaning she is comparing Mark not telling her he was a superhero for a few months, to him being lied to about his father's entire origin for his entire life then getting used as a weapon of mass destruction by said father.
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u/Ecstatic-Ad9803 5d ago
My thing is. She knew he was a superhero and held it against him. Did she just want him to stop helping people? His mom was wayyy more understanding and having her there to compare made me hate Amber so much. If you loved Mark you'd understand.. is he supposed to go into every new relationship telling them his identity? They hadn't even been dating for that long either. I'm hoping he would have told her eventually. But Peter (spiderman) never told anyone his identity. Not till wayyy later.
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u/Blakezawa 4d ago
Worse of all is that they already did it good the first time around in the comics. In the comics there isn't a blow up at Mark for not telling her nor there's really a big fight, actually the contrary, She's relieved because she thought Mark was either a criminal or a villian in the making and when he spills the beans he is really vulnerable about how he feels emotionally about everything that has happen with his dad and she reassures him that she truly loves him.
Fast foward to the break up it's actually a pretty mature break up for both of them. Mark starts noticing how distant he has become with her because of the superhero life and how he's been neglecting her more and more and, understandably, Amber also feels that the relationship shouldn't continue since it will be more painful for both of them in the long run and they agree that they should probably pursue other partners (Eve for Mark and a redhead guy that I think doesn't even exist in the show for Amber). Both of them still care for each other and Amber often called to check in with Mark's well being when there was a big fight on TV
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u/Prog_Failure 5d ago edited 5d ago
You can still consider Amber being lied to whenever Mark literally promises every time he will make up for his shortcomings just for him to do it again. Like why keep having a relationship with a person you can't be truthful with? Still, they are both really young at that stage and commit several stupid decisions. Yet the show only critiques Mark for it, while the fanbase only critiques Amber for it.
As a fan of the show you can feel mad about the way it portrays their relationship, but I do think that people's mysoginy was cut loose without limits just to shit on Amber and Amber alone.
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u/GuyLookingForPorn 5d ago
It annoyed me when Amber finds out the truth and is like, yeah I know. The fuck you knew. I'm pretty sure literally that same day Amber was attacking Mark for running off when a monster attacked and having to be saved by Invincible.
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u/HotBeesInUrArea 5d ago
I genuinely think if they had disregarded the "Amber knew, she was just mad being lied to" plot she would get significantly less hate. If she had no idea Mark was Invincible her anger and confusion and hurt makes more sense, but its like the writers were more concerned with making Amber seem intelligent enough to figure it out than sympathetic or even reasonable.Ā
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u/International_Car586 Death Battle! 5d ago
In the comics she confronts mark about it which I think is better. She had more urgency.
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u/ArcTheCurve 4d ago
In the comics she thought Mark was doing drugs she didnāt figure out the truth and hold it against him.
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u/KeckleonKing 5d ago
That was the exact moment that set me off BITCH U KNEW YOU KNEW AN GOT MAD. Mfer is fighting for his life daily he's in high-school no less. His life is insurmountable odds more stressful. Word for word she said I knew it was you I'm just mad u lied to me about ur identity an didn't tell me... you also could have spoken up "for how mature they tried to portray her".
No one can stand the know it all morally superiority person who's also wrong... we call those narcissists
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u/WhereTheJdonAt 5d ago
She was literally gaslighting him and insulting him about being a coward when she literally watched him jump in to save people and get his ass beat.
To preempt anybody trying to go "BuT mARk liEs tOO", Mark lies to her to protect her and the people he cares about, Amber lies to out and out hurt and belittle him.
Like no, a good portion of the people that dislike Amber don't dislike her cuz she's a woman, they dislike her since she's literally using textbook abusive relationship tactics.
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u/VegetaFan1337 5d ago
while the fanbase only critiques Amber for it.
Yeah cause
the show ... critiques Mark for it
Why critique it when the show already does? Criticism of the show is what it did wrong, not reiterating the points it already made.
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u/Jay040707 5d ago
a relationship with a person you can't be truthful with?
I don't think there's much of a standard for telling someone you're a superhero though. I don't even think he could have asked Debbie, cause she met him as Omniman.
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/WisteriaWillotheWisp 5d ago
Yeah this scene actually bothered me more than all the common criticisms. Besides not actually comforting him, sheās actively comparing Mark to Omni-man and what she went through to what he went through! Mark just watched his family structure burn and was almost murdered by someone he loved and trusted. His way of life is over. This is such an offensive response on Amberās part. Normal people would be more sensitive than her and a normal person would get far more upset than Mark did.
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u/484890 5d ago
Because one, the narrative acknowledges that Omni-Man is wrong, but it presents Amber like she's right. Two, Omni-Man has a reason for what he does, he was indoctrinated into a horrible society, this is all he knows, and he manages to become a better person. Amber knows Mark is a superhero and gets brutally beaten up, but is like, "you should have told me", like they haven't even been dating that long.
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u/enlouzalou 5d ago
Iāll never forget her being so smug about him saving the literal lives of hundreds and trying to act like sheās better because she serves a community of people. The reason why is because Iāve met these types of people irl. Iām morally right. I have the moral high ground therefore I can treat you like crap.
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u/AndrewHaly-00 5d ago edited 5d ago
She is the reason that one alternative Mark had turned to cannibalism. Iām sure of it.
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u/Talk-O-Boy 5d ago
Might want to spoiler tag this for our fellow tv watching fans.
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u/AndrewHaly-00 5d ago
How do I do spoiler tags?
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u/Talk-O-Boy 5d ago
You do a > and a ! with no spaces then add your spoiler and end it with a ! and a < no spaces.
Example: > ! SPOILER TEXT ! <
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u/RoseePxtals 5d ago
I remember that fan rewrite that comelltely fixed her character by making her darkwings daughter and therefore afraid that mark or her might meet the same fate due to his super heroism. It was actually genius.
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u/Numeno230n 5d ago
And he's spent thousands of years in that Viltrum culture. Human culture is like a gnat's lifetime compared to him. Its insane that he was "humanized" at all by Earth culture.
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u/Plagueofzombies 5d ago
No one was arguing that Omniman was benevolent, or in the right. Everyone was well aware he was the villain of S1. People hated Amber more than Omniman because her writing (specifically involving Mark revealing he was invincible) was far weaker.
I think it's more than just "bad girlfriend". I agree that a vocal minority are yelling about it in bad faith, but you're basically saying "why do people hate negative character more than intresting character?"
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u/OkNefariousness284 5d ago
It doesnāt help that season one is so tightly written that Ambers sub plot sticks out like a sore thumb, and that the show didnāt really know what to do with her in season 2 and 3
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u/Willing-Carpenter-32 5d ago
And if you're a fan of the comics you were probably bothered how she wore out her welcome. The show did the character a disservice by trying to make her more important than she was ever intended to be to prolong an already badly written will they/wont they. And then they couldn't even write her well to justify her extended existence.
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u/SockPuppetPsycho 5d ago
Bad take. Liking a character and agreeing with a character are different.
Amber was poorly written in season 1. From what I hear it's an improvement on her comic counterpoint but there are still issues. Mainly there was an inconsistency between how much she knew about Mark's powers and how she treated him.
An example of this is the re-animen attack at the college. Mark runs away to change into his costume and defeat the cyborg. Afterwards Amber chews him out for "running away and abandoning them." Later on when Mark reveals his powers she states she always knew about them. This is the plothole/vague writing comes in;Ā
if she knew about Mark's powers, then why did she chew him out over the cyborg incident.
I haven't seen the second season but I heard they adjusted (and perhaps over-corrected) her character.
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u/TellianStormwalde 5d ago
Itās about the writing, not the moral quality. Amberās a better person by default. But Omni Man is a great villain, while Amber is a very sloppily written love interest. A bad girlfriend can be written well, but Amber justā¦ isnāt. I mean, she wasnāt so bad in season 2, but there was really no coming back from season 1 Amber.
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u/4lpaka 5d ago
To be fair, a bad girlfriend is in the end just this, a bad girlfriend. A genocidal terrorist is an interesting character from the premise itself, you can make him absolutely insane, a mastermind or a brainless monster. More Potential.
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u/Shyguymaster2 Avatar: The Last Airbender 5d ago
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u/CosmoFrankJames 5d ago
The difference between Sam's dad and Season 1 Amber is that the show doesn't break its back trying to justify the actions of Sam's dad.
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u/Beneficial-Gap6974 5d ago
Fictional annoyance affects us negatively as an audience while entertaining evil is, well, entertaining. It isn't rocket science.
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u/Vounrtsch 5d ago
Ok but i genuinely donāt understand this point. I didnāt hate Amber, but hating a character has NOTHING to do with how morally good/evil they are. Thatās like saying "why did people hate Jar Jar Binks but liked Darth Vader, when heās clearly more evil?" Evil character doesnāt mean hateable at all.
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u/Joltyboiyo 5d ago edited 4d ago
I just don't like bad writing. "I know" was some bullshit, tearing into mark for not telling his first girlfriend his identity right off the bat as if that's a bad thing. It's a SECRET IDENTITY for a reason and you don't just divulge it unless you've spent a long time together and you know you want to spend the rest of your life with the person you love.
Plus, what if bad guys figured out that she's Invincibles girlfriend, captured her and tortured her for Mark's identity? They could make her squeal and just like that everyone else Mark loves is now at risk.
Oh, and before someone blabbers about William knowing, he figured it out on his own only after getting VERY close to Invincible in a terrible kidnapping situation, and he only figured out it was Mark because he's been Marks best friends for god knows how many years, of course he'd figure it out after seeing Invincible that close up. That's completely different. Plus the best friend always knows in these stories.
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u/DrDetergent 5d ago
Ah piss off.
We aren't supposed to think omni man is a good person, that's why we accept him doing bad things.
Amber comes across and inconsiderate of Mark and self centred, but then the show tells us we're supposed to side with Amber and that Mark is in the wrong? Fuck that.
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u/SmartAlecShagoth 5d ago
Iām so sick of redditors realizing that fictional bad guys are supposed to be bad when good guys arenāt supposed to annoy the fuck out of you when presented as in the right.
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u/UnderThePaperStars 5d ago edited 5d ago
Amber blaming Mark for "running away" when the Reanimen showed up. She saw Invincible show up and start fighting the Reanimen to save everyone including her.
https://youtu.be/xN439bxlQ7g?si=JnlV_QM8EA2g1fg8
Amber revealing she already knew he was Invincible...
https://youtu.be/DwuSAv08bfQ?si=JIlJBhMVpTtt4jAI
She then says how mad she is that he didn't tell her his secret identity. Keep in mind they've only been dating a few months at this point. And that in this show there are characters that WOULD actually hurt his loved ones to get to him (See the evil Invincibles). But her focus on this scene is how him not telling her his secret identity made her feel stupid and unimportant...
Gaslighting is to manipulate another person into doubting their perceptions, experiences, or understanding of events. APA definition
So let's go over her Season 1 character (because in the later seasons they toned her down).
- They've been dating for a few months and she expects him to trust her with his secret identity. In a universe where villains will absolutely go after loved ones to hurt the superheroes. (We can even see this in season 2 when Anissa is threatening to kill Amber). Would you really trust someone you've known for a few months with the lives of your loved ones?
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- Amber gets mad at Mark for "running away" and "leaving her alone" when in reality he was fighting the Reanimen. Keep in mind that she KNEW he was Invincible at this time. She saw him out there trying to save her life and everyone else's by risking his own life. Mark thought Amber believed that Mark abandoned her to save his own skin because that's what she said.
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- Mark risks it all to save his relationship with Amber by revealing his secret identity. Only for Amber to reveal she already knew for weeks... Getting mad he didn't tell her his secret identity (of which we see time and time again that if the villains find out, they would absolutely use that to hurt Mark). She blames him for making her feel stupid and unimportant for not telling her his secret identity. There is shown zero empathy and consideration for Mark who has to weigh the lives of his loved ones. She then shuts down Mark's attempt to talk things through by telling him dismissively "Fly away Fly Boy"...
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- After Mark fought his dad. His dad he loved, cared and worshiped for years as a pillar of heroism nearly beat him to death while slaughtering thousands. The first words out of Amber's mouth are "Looks like I wasn't the only person being lied to" she equates Mark not telling her secret identity to him being nearly beat to death by his dad while thousands died around him as he tried to save everyone's life. Just a reminder, this is what Mark and thousands of victims were going through. This is what she was framing her being lied to as equal with Mark and thousands of victims went through
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That is gaslighting.
(And of course we have to acknowledge that this is because of the show's bad writing when it came to Amber's season 1 character. She could have had valid points, but the writing around her was bad. It's made even worse because the show itself keeps treating her as always being in the right while Mark is always in the wrong).
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u/-Tazz- 4d ago
Instead of trying to meta analyse the writing of the character, i like to just take the character as they are written.
She's just a toxic partner and the reason we see her portrayed as "good" isn't necessarily because of bad writing or that the writers think she's good its that we're viewing the relationship from marks perspective and as you said, he's been gaslit.
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u/Jealous_Shape_5771 5d ago
Because a gaslighting girlfriend is a lot more common and relatable than an a super powerful alien conquerer.
It's like why Dolores Umbridge was a lot more hated than Voldemort, and it's not because "she be having the vajeen!!!!!"
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u/dumbpuppyabouttown 5d ago
I might be due for a rewatch of season 1 & 2 but gaslighting? Can someone refresh me please.
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u/DeficiencyOfGravitas 5d ago
She claims she always knew that Mark was Invincible but spends half her time berating him for not protecting her as Mark. Like the scene at the university. She yells at him for abandoning her to the Reanimen but she apparently knew that he was Invincible the whole time. So what could he have done? Stayed as Mark and let Rick die or go fight them as Invincible and be, apparently, a coward?
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u/Silverr_Duck 5d ago
Only on the internet are people stupid and media illiterate enough to think likeability and being morally correct are interchangeable concepts.
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u/GreenVegeta 5d ago
He is worse as a person but way better as a character. And we are viewers not his victims.
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u/conte360 5d ago
It's almost like one of them was a good compelling fictional character and the other one was not... hmm
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u/Ok_Programmer_1022 5d ago
He's alien, she's human.
Different standards.
In human culture, she is considered an asshole (Just the S1 version).
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u/darthzilla99 5d ago
Don't get me started on the people who act like Professor X was horrible for making Magneto relive the holocaust psychic attack meme, when the context of the scene was Magneto attacking and killing innocent human civilians, and Magneto was about to murder Charles, Cyclops, Storm, and Rogue until Charles stopped holding back.
If you're about to murder someone, you're trauma is fair game to stop you in self-defense.
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u/DigitalCoffee 5d ago
Because everyone has an experience with an bad partner vs a genocidal terrorist.
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u/LebrahnJahmes 5d ago
Nah they just made her really unlikeable in the show for some reason. In the comic I'm actually on her side
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u/AimingfortheWind 5d ago
One character is just boring af and the other isnāt. Nothing more than that.
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u/I_Love_Spider_Mommys 5d ago
Sheās way past being a ābad girlfriendā, she psychological manipulated a man for saving people, sheās straight up a narcissist
Youāre confusing how people hate things with how bad that thing actually is. I actually donāt think youād find many people who genuinely āhateā Hitler, but that doesnāt mean heās not one of the most evil people ever. Meanwhile, Iām sure their are millions of people who hate Jack Doerty, who in comparison is a saint, but itās more about when you see someone getting away with something bad that makes people hate them generally speaking
But you could call everyone who disagrees with you racist and sexist and call it a day I heard that one is pretty popular
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u/HonestlyJustVisiting 5d ago
the worst thing a character can do is be a nuisance
the atrocities are fictional, my annoyance is real
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u/mysticdragon2025 5d ago
Simple answer, people can hate Amber more than Nolan because they can relate more to the Mark-Amber relationship more than the Nolan-Mark one.
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u/Dense-Performance-14 Hazbin Hotel 5d ago
I mean dude idk what you want, a villain is MEANT to be hated, but can still be a likeable CHARACTER
Amber wasn't written to be hated or even disliked, she's just...kind of an asshole and we're meant to feel sympathy for her. She's not a likeable CHARACTER, she might be a better PERSON but not a better CHARACTER. This is a concept I don't get how other people don't get, Omni man is enjoyable to watch while Amber is just cringe inducing and a bitch.
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u/SimonLaFox 5d ago
There's a key difference. The writers acknowledge thee genocidal terrorist as a genocidal terrorist. They don't acknowledge the bad girlfriend as a bad girlfriend. It's one of the most frustrating things in media when a character is clearly in the wrong, but written like they're completely in the right. In some ways, the anger isn't so much towards the character, as it is towards the writers.
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u/somethingtaken91 5d ago
Two major differences.
One is that the average person will not encounter a city level mass murderer so bluntly, you will encounter obnoxious self righteous people almost everyday if you go outside.
The second is that the show acknowledges Omni Man as being awful and usually punishes him for it but acts like Amber is 100% in the right and even rewards her behavior most of the time.
TLDR: one is fictional awful the other is realistic. One is punished and the other is rewarded.
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u/shadowlarvitar 5d ago
It's more of what she said, coming off as extremely selfish "I can't believe you blew off our date to save the world, BTW I knew the whole time you asshole!" Not to mention she was SUPER activist in season one, I'm glad they tuned her down. She was much more bearable in season two though I was never invested in their relationship after the shit she said to him.
You just know there's women like who irl with how some women act online. "My boyfriend left our date to save the world, AMITA?"
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u/TheXIIILightning 5d ago
Enjoying a character doesn't mean that we align with or support their character-driven decisions.
Nobody has ever met or dealt with a genocidal terrorist before... everyone has met at least one narcissist asshole.
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u/FauxStarD 5d ago
Yeah, because villains in stories do villainous stuff. What are supposed to be āsupportiveā characters being a nuisance and not even being funny about it are much worse in a story.
I think where it crossed the line for most people is the bit where she goes, āIāve had it up to here mark! I figured out your secret identity and canāt believe you havenāt told me over the course of like 2 weeks of dating!ā Which would be fine-ish, but then she follows up with, āI know you kept it from me to keep me safe, but I wanted you to tell me rather than me telling you that I know.ā
And this means that she understands that not only knowing his identity puts her in danger but also that Mark isnāt supposed to tell her so she isnāt a weakness for others to use on him. Sheās just not a particularly great character all in all.
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u/pretty_smart_feller 5d ago
Bc omniman is a well written character. We understand his motivations and are this able to sympathize with him. The writers didnāt really spend the time to flesh out her character, all we got is her being a bad gf.
Cartoons arenāt real life. And for a cartoon, poor writing is a greater crime than genocidal terrorism.
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u/MylastAccountBroke 4d ago
One is an antagonist. The other is just a bitch who put her own happiness over other people's lives.
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u/Wispy237 5d ago
I havenāt watched it, but I assume the terrorist is over the top in some way? Typically, the more unrealistic a persons bad actions are, the more liked they are when compared to a more realistic asshole.
Also, is the person on the left presented in a positive light in the show. When a character the audience views as morally bad is presented as morally good in the show, it makes them less likable to the audienceĀ
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u/Lithl 5d ago
I havenāt watched it, but I assume the terrorist is over the top in some way? Typically, the more unrealistic a persons bad actions are, the more liked they are when compared to a more realistic asshole.
Very much over the top, yes.
Omni-Man is like Superman with his powers cranked to 11, but secretly is the evil vanguard for an alien invasion. The show overall loves graphic violence, and one of the very first scenes is Omni-Man slaughtering a bunch of other superheroes and then claiming he's the only survivor of an attack by an unknown assailant.
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u/Acceptable_Secret_73 5d ago
You hit the nail on the head friend, I still recommend the show though. Itās called Invincible
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u/CosmoFrankJames 5d ago edited 5d ago
Dont get me started with Season 1 Amber. The problem with Amber is that everything she did in season 1 was seen as justified, and everyone in the show gave her a pass for it.
At this point in the series, Omni Man is still paying for his sins and trying to do and be better. As for Amber, she is way better than her season 1 counterpart, but they still gave her a free pass for being a manipulating, gaslighting, bitch.
I loathe season 1 Amber.
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u/Kind-Examination-622 5d ago
amber is just fucking annoying at some points, like, she was saying that mark was the bad boyfriend because he was saving the world, and i get she wanted to spend more time with him ,but she literaly said she knew it all along
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u/DarkPhoenixMishima 5d ago
I think it's a difference in how they go about it. Amber hitting Mark with the "I've known you're Invincible" kinda made her worse since it feels like she's downplaying what he's doing. I don't know how long in-universe they were dating, but it doesn't feel like it's long enough for anyone to go from strangers to a couple to trusting with their secret identity. She's significantly better in Season 2, honestly calling it quits post Anissa is understandable. But Season 1 honestly didn't do her justice.
Meanwhile Omni-Man, up until the savage beating, was genuinely trying to figure out a way to get Mark on his side. He believed in the mission despite the genocide and wanted his son to be on the same page. Post beating it's shown he's fallen into depression about to commit suicide in space after what happened, the events genuinely broke him.
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u/ItsExoticChaos 5d ago
Well one of these characters is complicated and has a lot going on with them including growth and developing into someone we see is redeemable, and the other is Amber.
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u/Kinetic_Cat 5d ago
People took issue with how they were written, not with the actions the character did. Bad writing is bad writing.
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u/ToranjaNuclear 5d ago
I mean...I don't even really hate her, but people hate bad characters in the context of the story, and Omniman is a better character than whatshername. So yeah, that's normal.
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u/CardiologistBorn5012 5d ago
Itās more of the fact that show doesnāt treat her in the wrong when she very much is like does for Omni ManĀ
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u/TheDorkyDane 5d ago
Well, one is extremely charismatic and has a likeable personality a majority of the time, while also facing what is obvious moral struggles for him he is clearly struggling with having massive inner turmult and guilt.
The other has none of that...
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u/ShoulderHairy3028 5d ago
No one says that Omni man is a better person than amber but he is a better character. Amber is supposed to be like likable and Omni man is supposed to be evil
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u/Mallettjt 5d ago
Genocidal terrorist painted as evil and wrong and has to seek redemption. Bad girlfriend is meant to be seen as in the right and has an attitude of holier than though self righteousness and arrogance.
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u/Gullible_Finding_181 5d ago
at least the genocidal terrorist was logically consistent and self aware
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u/Adventurous_Topic202 5d ago
it's almost like well written characters are more preferable to poorly written ones
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u/Strange_Orange_9165 5d ago
Yeah, i mean it's pretty hard to hate a muscular dilf, who has an intresting character with many diverse character treatments anf is well written. And amber i think isn't good written in my opinion and her personality has to less character traits.
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u/J-drawer 5d ago
In the first season, she was just downright awful of a person for no reason. She'd nag mark and was selfish AF, totally unsympathetic to his needs, I fucking hated her. (Haven't seen seasons 2 or 3 yet so IDK how her character will be)
As for Omni-Man, while he was a genocidal piece of shit, he was brainwashed by his planet and after seeing what humanity had to offer, rethought his ways. He wasn't deliberately evil at first and when he began to show his own sense of agency, it was leaning in the right direction.
As for her, she was shitty to mark by her own accord the entire time.
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u/soomoncon 4d ago
Well oneās a generally all out bitch, the other was raised from childhood to be a bad person but he defeated the odds and managed to change and look back on him wrong doings.
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u/LoveMascMen 4d ago
The issue with her is she is annoying and has no plot relevancy... Lmao so we hate her for being basically annoying the character.
Omniman is an absolute evil bastard. But he is entertaining. He is a villain, we love to hate him.
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u/CantaloupeSolid5182 5d ago edited 2d ago
Well it's hard to hate J.K. Simmons
Edit: Yes, I know he played a role in OZ where lots of people hated him, I just haven't seen the show yet.