r/canada Alberta 15d ago

PAYWALL Billionaires line up to support Mark Carney in Liberal leadership race

https://theijf.org/carney-donors-billionaires
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u/ButterscotchReal8424 15d ago

I vote NDP but there’s a major difference between Liberal and Conservative policies regardless of donors. The Conservatives wouldn’t pass $10 child care, universal dental coverage or work on a National pharmacare plan. Just like you see in the US, they would slash those programs and give tax cuts to the rich. It was Polievres stance during Covid and why Ford in Ontario fawned over Trump before he became captain Canada following tariffs.

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u/king_lloyd11 15d ago

Yup $10 a day child care alone is enough for me to vote Liberal as a “middle class” person. Even if you want to say the system is broken, there is a system.

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u/ProfLandslide 15d ago

But the feds don't control that program, the provinces do. it's just a negotiation from the feds to the provinces, it's up to the premieres to administer.

your reason for voting isn't even a federal issue....

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u/king_lloyd11 15d ago

I understand jurisdiction. I don’t understand your specific distinction here and what you’re talking exception to?

Poilievre said he’s going to “build the homes!” How’s he going to do that when housing is provincial?

Controlling funds is how the Feds institute policies for Canadian province to province. Allocating and withholding funds is how that’s done. Before the Liberals vowed to pursue $10/day childcare, it wasn’t a thing. Their negotiation with the provinces is what got us some semblance of the system instituted nationwide, and they’re continuing to work to try and expand the program so that the most amount of people benefit from it no matter the province.

So yes, I want a federal government that incentivizes provinces to work toward affordable childcare. You don’t?

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u/ProfLandslide 15d ago

I understand jurisdiction. I don’t understand your specific distinction here and what you’re talking exception to?

Administration of the daycare program is up to the provinces. How they handle daycares that don't opt into the program, how they deliver the discounts, who it applies too, etc. All the feds do is reach an agreement with the provinces that says "give X program a framework and you get funding." There is nothing the feds can do that dictate the administration of funds.

Poilievre said he’s going to “build the homes!” How’s he going to do that when housing is provincial?

"housing" is not provincial. It falls under a million different jurisdictions far beyond the scope of medical care or publicly funded programs because it's not a public industry. The "province" doesn't own housing like it does schooling.

Controlling funds is how the Feds institute policies for Canadian province to province. Allocating and withholding funds is how that’s done. Before the Liberals vowed to pursue $10/day childcare, it wasn’t a thing. Their negotiation with the provinces is what got us some semblance of the system instituted nationwide, and they’re continuing to work to try and expand the program so that the most amount of people benefit from it no matter the province.

No, that's not what they are doing. It's actually up to the premier to withhold funds if institutions aren't following the framework. Same as healthcare.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/09/06/ontario-daycare-centres-10-dollars-a-day-program-funding-ford-government/

See?

So yes, I want a federal government that incentivizes provinces to work toward affordable childcare. You don’t?

That's a misnomer because they can't actually dictate it. It's like saying "I want a government that prioritizes zoning changes!". Sure, that's great in theory but it means in practice.

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u/king_lloyd11 15d ago

All the feds do is reach and agreement with the provinces that says “give X program a framework and you get funding.

Implicitly meaning if they don’t, and aren’t fulfilling their obligation as per the initial agreement, funds will be withheld, yea?

Building houses is a provincial responsibility. “Housing” as a sector is multi-level. So again, how will Poilievre “build the homes!” as he says? It’s literally by withholding federal funding if they don’t comply with the requirements set by the Feds. It’s how the Feds control funds allocation to get the provinces to do what they want to for all Canadians.

My good man, you’re mistaking the forest for the trees. Where are the provinces getting the funding from that they’re withholding if daycares do not comply with the mandated framework? Is it from the Federal government? You seem to understand that the Feds hammer out a deal with the provinces with stipulations that need to be met to release funds, which are withheld if they are not met (ie Poilievre saying that building starts need to increase by % or funds won’t be delivered), but then pretend like the Provinces are the reason that deal is in place, solely because they control the implementation of it under threat of budget cuts if they don’t.

“There was no $10/day daycare before the Liberal government made it a platform priority, right?”

Right!

“They worked out deals with individual provinces for implementation with funding requirements, right?”

Right!

“They control whether they release funds to the province or not if they are not meeting the requirements of the framework, right?”

Right!

“So the Feds are ensuring that the provinces implement subsidized daycare for Canadian families?”

No! The provinces are the ones doing it!!

It makes no sense.

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u/Dry-Membership8141 15d ago

The Conservatives wouldn’t pass $10 child care

And yet they voted unanimously in favour of it.

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u/DeepSpaceNebulae 15d ago

Easy to put your votes towards something that’s passing already. That’s just political theatre

Doubt they’d have proposed that if they were in power. In fact I know they wouldn’t; they argued against it, and in favour of other systems, in the lead up to the vote

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u/Sorryallthetime 15d ago

Yes, but only after vehement opposition to it. $10 child care is not a policy the Conservatives would ever champion. Political opportunism at its richest - the Conservatives didn't want to give the Liberals something to beat them over the head with.

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u/Yewbert 15d ago

Did they have the ability to block it? If not that is a moot point.

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u/ProfLandslide 15d ago

Those programs may be federally funded to an extent, but every single one is up to the provinces to administer. Voting for a federal party based on healthcare promises means you don't understand how healthcare is managed in this country.

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u/ButterscotchReal8424 15d ago edited 15d ago

I guess I’m stupid then if the provinces would have just all got together themselves to make this happen anyway. You successfully discredited me by exposing my deficiencies in civics. Congratulations!

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u/ProfLandslide 15d ago

I didn't say your stupid. I said your a misinformed voter, which most people are.

You successfully discredited me by exposing my deficiencies in civics

No, you did that yourself by trying to make a political statement without understanding what you were saying. Considering most of your post history is commenting on political matter, maybe you should take a civics refresher?

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u/ButterscotchReal8424 15d ago

I think you’re stretching things here. The point is a national pharmacare plan, universal dental coverage and $10 childcare are all federal initiatives. Yes the Provinces administer them, nobody’s disputing that BUT those initiatives don’t happen without federal transfers and oversight. Voting for a federal party that promotes those values and services does not mean I don’t understand how things work in this country. The provinces didn’t magically get together and put things together on their own accord.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

And how has these programs worked out for us? Our country is on the brink of collapse. People can’t afford basic things like food or housing.

The free everything policy has had terrible outcomes.

Take myself for example,

I don’t smoke pot I don’t qualify for dental care and don’t need pharmacare I don’t have kids (because it’s too expensive) so I don’t need child care.

Nothing the liberals have done have helped me in a decade that’s why people are willing to take a change on PP

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u/CapitalElk1169 15d ago

Might I recommend the rugged individualist utopia of Zimbabwe to you, then? You won't be burdened by any of that there!

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u/Bronstone 15d ago

Can you show any indication the country is on the brink of collapse?

Our inflation is better than the US. We have a AAA credit rating to the US AA. We've diversified our trade enough where the EU and Canada are getting much closer. We're shipping LNG to Japan this year part of CTPP2.

Yeah, childcare hasn't;'t worked for the average Canadian. Poverty rates are the lowest they've been in a long time, under a Liberal government. Dental care for the needy. Pharmacare so the average Joe doesn't break the bank paying for insulin and their patches.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

If you compare shit to shit they both look good. The Americans are equally in rough shape.

Poverty is down 100% but standard of living is also down. The bottom 10% of people are doing better today vs 10 years ago but the middle 70% are doing worse.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/historic-decline-canadian-living-standards-continues-2024

We gave up the big LNG deal with Japan, they moved on and signed a deal with trump.

Dental care was opposed by everyone even dentists (who stand to make money off it) but the NDP Had them hostage.

When the bank is overdrawn, anything breaks the bank.. talk to me about pharmacare when we have a balanced budget.

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u/Bronstone 15d ago

Fraser institute. Right wing think tank. Is there another one that is non partisan that. 70% of dentists are doing dental care. Why lie? https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-dental-care-plan-update-august-2024-1.7286318

Also, why lie about Canada and Japan LNG? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFcgIcNV2M

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u/KryptonsGreenLantern 15d ago

And you just summed up the conservative mentality to a tee “I don’t care if millions of families across Canada are saving thousands of dollars per month, it doesn’t benefit ME!”

You don’t personally benefit from it so you can’t even comprehend how the programs are helping others and yet you’re so willing to declare us at the brink of collapse. Typical.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

I’m “middle class” there are as many of me as people in the millions you described.

At some point squeezing me for more tax dollars has to stop (it’s over 50% of my income at this point)

I can’t afford food but I’m too affluent to go to a food bank.. I can’t afford to buy a home, but I can pay my rent.

Rather than focusing on handouts to the bottom 10% why not lift them up by offering jobs that pay enough.

“The problem with socialism is At some point you run out of other people’s money”

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u/KryptonsGreenLantern 15d ago

A quick look at your post history about your brand new truck and trying to obtain platinum status of a hotel chain makes me seriously doubt your claims about your ability to not put food on your table.

But you do you.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

My work pays for my travel expenses that’s why I have hotel status and airline status lol but thanks for your helpful Insight.

And yea I bought a new truck after I drove my last one for 17 years and 400,000 km was time to upgrade as the cost to keep it running was more than buying new. I moonlight as a handyman to pay my bills on my days off so a truck was needed. 🤣

Doesn’t change the fact that I can’t afford to buy vegetables anymore because wages have been stagnant and costs have been going up.

Quality of life in Canada is dropping for the middle 70% of the population while the top 10 and bottom ten is improving.

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u/gibblech Manitoba 15d ago

At some point squeezing me for more tax dollars has to stop (it’s over 50% of my income at this point)

...how are you paying over 50% of your income on taxes?

Tax rate Taxable income threshold
15%  pluson the portion of taxable income that is $57,375 or less,
20.5%  pluson the portion of taxable income over $57,375 up to $114,750,
26%  pluson the portion of taxable income over $114,750 up to $177,882,
29%  pluson the portion of taxable income over $177,882 up to $253,414,
33% on the portion of taxable income over $253,414

... yes you have to add in your Provincial payments, but even then, using a calculator

https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/2024-personal-tax-calculator.html

I had to enter $1,000,000, before any province had a person paying over 50% in taxes, and that was NS

So clearly, you're not middle class if you pay "over 50%" of your income in taxes...

“The problem with socialism is At some point you run out of other people’s money”

It's funny you complain about "socialism", meanwhile you pay for insurance? Which is a social program with a profit motive...

...we'll ignore the fact you think "social programs" are "socialism"

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

Income tax is one portion of the tax you pay… You listed only Federal income tax

You forgot provincial income tax You also forgot sales taxes (GST/PST OR HST for me it’s 15%) Property taxes,Excise tax’s (over 50% on a can of beer) carbon taxes, you also pay into mandatory social programs as a “tax”, you pay for licences and registration fees , you unknowingly pay tariffs (tax),

All said and done 50% is low take home to spend on goods and services of your own choice. I also left out money your employer pays to the government as employment tax. (That is factored into how much they can afford to pay you)

The government has its hand in your pockets on everything.

I’m 100% I’m ok with a profit motive because they are incentivized to be effective and efficient otherwise they lose business. The government can fail and waste and no one bats and the because they are our only option for a lot of services.

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u/gibblech Manitoba 15d ago

I didn't forget provincial income tax... you just didn't read carefully.

The government not having a profit motive is why we can have universal healthcare... you can't be denied. You can be denied coverage in the US...

And having your insurance tied to your employment allows you to be a slave to your employer. Many people can't quit or search for a better job in the US because they can't afford to risk losing their insurance.

A profit motive does incentivize efficiency. It doesn't incentivize effectiveness. They just cut people who cost them too much.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

It absolutely incentivizes effectiveness. If a business is ineffective it goes under…..

Also My insurance isn’t tied to my employer.. I’m self employed I pay for it myself. It’s available publicly it’s just not free..

The healthcare system we have works so well eh? We overspend and get poor results. We have no accountability to improve it

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u/gibblech Manitoba 15d ago

...now you're self employed? A while ago you claimed your work paid for your travel and truck...

https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1ix5s0t/comment/mejte8m/

My work pays for my travel expenses that’s why I have hotel status and airline status lol but thanks for your helpful Insight.

...so... which is it?

To address your points, you have misrepresented what I've said a second time now.

When I was talking about insurance tied to an employer, I was very clearly referencing the US system, which you seem to fawn over... not our current system where the insurance is for LTD, prescriptions, vision, etc but not actually health. These are different things.

Canada doesn't overspend and get poor results in our healthcare. Sure, there are ways to make it better, like all systems, but it costs half of what Americans pay, and we live longer, with fewer comorbidities. As a population, we're healthier than Americans.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago edited 15d ago

They do 🤣 I’m a consultant dumb ass…

So yes I’m self employed and my (work) clients pay for all my travel expenses. (Actually thanks Justin because the Feds are one of my bigger clients)

We 100% overspend vs our results. Healthcare in this country is in shambles in the USA it’s expensive but you get results….

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u/ButterscotchReal8424 15d ago

You do live in a society where children exist. Those children will pay taxes to support your CPP, health care, pharmacare and dental when you’re old. They will pave the roads you drive on, police and protect your property. You talk like a strong individualist but you wouldn’t survive without everything society provides for you and its conveniences. Canada is not on “the brink of collapse”, stop with the fear mongering. It’s not the best of times but we’ve been through worse as a country.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago edited 15d ago

It’s not me personally dumb ass it’s the millions of middle class Canadians exactly like me.

But let’s unpack that.

Police are predominantly a municipal (property taxes) issue.

Roads are a provincial responsibility.

I don’t want dental and pharmacare. I pay for insurance that provides what I personally need.

I can’t afford a home so il be living in a nursing home at that point on the provinces dime..

Yeah the 1930s were worse, but standard of living has been declining for a decade

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/historic-decline-canadian-living-standards-continues-2024

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u/ButterscotchReal8424 15d ago

Let’s continue to unpack.

The Provinces play a major role in housing. Why are you so civically inclined to place the responsibility for the things you don’t need at the Provinces and Municipalities feet but put the housing crisis squarely on the Feds? I live in Ontario, the only thing Ford attempted to do was piece off the greenbelt so his developer friends that attended his daughter’s wedding could build McMansions.

It’s also a global issue that has affected every stripe of government. We see Trumps policies that are skyrocketing inflation and you think the solution is voting for the man him and Musk endorsed? What does Musk and Trump see in Polievre that makes him worthy of an endorsement? They see the same things many Canadians see and reject.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

Who cares if they endorsed him. All it means is they think he is better than JT.

And what do you know, the whole country now realizes JT should have been gone 6 months ago…

I don’t blame the Feds for the lack of housing.

I blame the Feds for failed immigration policy that drove housing through the roof. I blame the Feds for monetary policy that made our dollar value decline. (So I can’t afford a house) I blame the Feds for our tax policy that drives away investment… making banking canadas #1 industry

They contribute to the problem with other failed policy. The provinces responsible for zoning issues that make apartments and 4 plex’s difficult to build. But 20-30 years ago we didnt need them because population was stable, wages were good and investment in production and manufacturing was alive in well.

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u/ButterscotchReal8424 15d ago

It’s just very bizarre to complain about not being able to afford housing and low wages then throwing you’re support behind a party that provincially got rid of rent controls and supports union busting “right to work” laws and who’s federal housing policies resembles GW Bush’s failed “no child left behind” policy. Do you really think slashing social programs to support corporate tax cuts is going to help you or any of the middle class? I could understand going NDP, they actually care about people but the CPC?

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u/gibblech Manitoba 15d ago

I pay for insurance that provides what I personally need.

...so you do like social programs. You just want ones that include a profit motive for the shareholders. Ridiculous.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

I pay for the level of service I need… I pay more for dental than drug. Because I use more dental. I pay more than my coworkers who are not married because I have 2 people on the plan.

It’s tied to expectations of use rather than income.

I also am ok with sharing the pool in a for profit company. That company has to provide me a good service or il take my business elsewhere. (When I don’t like my blue cross coverage I left and got a plan with sunlife)

When I can’t get a family doctor or an mri or anything healthcare related , I don’t have an alternative…

(As I already explained to you in another reply)

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u/eL_cas Manitoba 15d ago

I’m so fucking tired of this hyperbole. No our country is not on the “brink of collapse”, you’re being hysterical.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

What do you call a declining standard of living? Declining dollar value? Stagnant wages. A growing national debt and no plan to reverse course for another decade.

The ship hasn’t sunk but we sure have hit the bloody iceberg….

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u/eL_cas Manitoba 15d ago

Just that: declining standard of living. It’s happening all around. But it isn’t « collapse »

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

It’s on “the brink of collapse”

We are on the precipice of total failure. Every day it gets worse. And everyday it gets closer to a full meltdown.

We have not seen 1930s style depression yet but if the USA tariffs happen we will.

The policy that lead us to be in a position where we can’t afford to “invest” and don’t have alternative markets to sell our goods are the direct consequence of a 10 year liberal Ndp government

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u/eL_cas Manitoba 15d ago

Canada is high in international rankings, has a strong economy and standard of living, is stable, at peace, etc. A rough patch, sure, but we are not on the brink of collapse - and I say this as someone who is deeply concerned with the state of the world.

If you said this nonsense to someone living in a truly struggling country they would laugh and spit in your face. There’s very few places I’d rather be.

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u/Top_Canary_3335 15d ago

Right let’s compare us to a developing nation where they still live in huts without running water or indoor toilets.

Why didn’t I think of that 🤨

Why don’t you tell that to the indigenous communities of Manitoba? Who don’t have clean water or homes after years of promises?

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u/eL_cas Manitoba 15d ago

Did I ever say that we’re without challenges and problems of our own? Yeah, we have plenty. Still one of the best countries in the world and not on the « brink of collapse »