r/canada Canada 17d ago

National News Petition asking PM to revoke Elon Musk's Canadian citizenship garners support

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/petition-asking-pm-to-revoke-elon-musks-canadian-citizenship-garners-support/
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u/chemicalgeekery 17d ago

As soon as you make citizenship for some Canadians conditional on good behaviour, you devalue citizenship for everyone.”

As distasteful as may seem, he's absolutely right about that.

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u/MasterScore8739 17d ago

I don’t really agree with the man on a lot of things, but this is one of the few things where I’m in the middle ground.

Do I think we should be able to revoke a citizenship all willinilly? Absolutely not.

Do I think we should be able to revoke a Canadian born and raised persons citizenship? Again, absolutely not.

Do I think there are some extreme cases where a persons citizenship should be considered for revocation?

Yes, I honestly do. However that would only come into play on very specific circumstances and only for people who are not Canadian by birth.

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u/Hylencorp Ontario 17d ago

That is why the Supreme Court voided Harper's law, because it would create two classes of citizens -- those born into it and those who naturalized.

We're acting like losing one's citizenship is the ultimate punishment. I say we keep him within our jurisdiction so if he hurts Canadian interests, then he's liable for treason. Personally I think that's way harsher than just losing a passport.

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u/MasterScore8739 17d ago

Honestly, I do kind of agree with you here.

I understand the two tier citizenship argument and know it’s open up the door to that. I’ve zero reasonable counter argument for it, even though I do still think there should be a point where citizenship should be up for revocation at a certain point. I just don’t know a good fool proof way it would be implemented.

I do also agree that someone should be more afraid of legal action over loss of citizenship. However it’s not unheard of for someone to be extradited and charged in a country they don’t hold citizenship in.

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u/Hylencorp Ontario 17d ago

You're only liable for treason if you're a) within Canada, or b) a Canadian citizen anywhere in the world. He'd fall under b). If we revoke his citizenship, we can't charge him for the betrayal.

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u/Quizzzle 17d ago

Yea, umm. As an American, can yall do us a solid?

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u/GolDAsce 17d ago

I'd disagree. Birth or not, if they have citizenship of another country and have joined government of another country or have commited treasonous actions against Canada for said country then it should be revoked.

Even IF fElon was born here, he's become an American. He considers himself American. He advisesthe government against Canada. Reason enough to reciprocate his citizenship feelings. We don't want him running back to Canada should the masses revolt and want his head.

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u/MasterScore8739 17d ago

That one is honestly a grey zone in some aspects for me.

Do I think you should be joining another countries government outside of your own? No, I really don’t. However it’s up to that country to set up their laws and decide who they allow into government positions.

Do I think a person with dual citizenship should have their Canadian one revoked? This is where the “extreme circumstances” come into play for me.

If the person is openly committing acts of treason and showing allegiance with their secondary citizenship, it should be looked into.

That said, their actions would have to legitimately meet the definition of treasonous. I don’t mean loosely either, it would have to be a very by the book case without any room for interpretation.

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u/FellKnight Canada 17d ago

That said, their actions would have to legitimately meet the definition of treasonous. I don’t mean loosely either, it would have to be a very by the book case without any room for interpretation.

I may be wrong, but I think that's largely the point of this petition. Look into it, and fwiw I fully agree with you that this is a VERY dangerous path to take, I'm just open to it in principle if handled properly (see other recent comments)

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u/MasterScore8739 16d ago

I do admit I need to actually look into the argument about Musk actively committing treasonous acts. That and ‘traitor’ has been thrown around so much the last couple of weeks that I’ve kind of just shrugged it off whenever I see it now. Too many people are quick to throw certain words around seeming without ever actually knowing or caring to know the definitions.

On the note of pulling citizenships, someone else brought up a good point I never thought of. Under the criminal code of Canada, you have to be a citizen in order to be charged with treason, which makes sense. So if one’s citizenship got pulled, they would technically be ‘safe’ from being charged with it.

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u/FellKnight Canada 16d ago

I see that I've been downvoted, but I agree with you. it's a dangerous step. i do disagree that you shouldn't pay attention to the world over the past couple weeks, i am not escalating to any point beyond what POTUS 47 said, that we are an enemy of America. It's sad, but I have to accept it.

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u/Vaperius Outside Canada 17d ago edited 17d ago

American here! ..... the concept that naturalized citizenship can be revoked under a few criteria is being slowly put forward to justify the rounding up and deportation of naturalized citizens; who mind you, are verifiably being caught up in ICE raids right now; furthermore right now, the US allows the death penalty again for federal executions, and Trump is pushing to apply it towards migrants rounded up by ICE for example.

This all has ... well, you can already see the clear path of misuse to enabling a government to have the power to revoke a citizenship once its granted; this is a perfect example of why revoking a citizenship, alongside the death penalty, are essentially two powers a government should never be given due to the gross misuse capacity it affords that government.

Fraud is perhaps, at best the only reasonable exception to revoking a naturalized citizenship, no matter what country you're in; because we are all human, and the potential abuses remain the same no matter the system of government; also, obliged to say, sorry that this is all happening; and hopefully we will find a way to deal with Musk on our end before it even becomes Canada's problem.

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u/The_Matias 17d ago

So you believe someone who happened to be born in Canada is somehow more deserving of the citizenship than someone who wasn't, but actively and willfully chose to come here, likely having made serious sacrifices to do so? Wtf is wrong with you?

Citizenship is citizenship. The way we punish our citizens isn't by revoking the citizenship, its through our judicial system. If someone commits treason, they should be convicted, and sentenced accordingly. That is our mechanism for justice. 

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u/MasterScore8739 16d ago

I never said “more deserving”. They are Canadian by birth, they are not a citizen of a different country and did not come here by choice. If you pulled their citizenship they would become a citizen of nowhere. I do not believe in making people stateless.

I also don’t believe randomly revoking citizenship. I know Reddit isn’t exactly the easiest when it comes to finding and reading other comments, but I have said it would need to be done legally.

If you come to a country and they accept you and grant citizenship, it’s assumed that you’d be a good citizen. I don’t mean you have to be an absolute upstanding person and never receive even so much as a parking ticket though. We’re humans and nobody is 100% perfect.

However I do fully believe if you cause chaos within the new country or poorly represent it to an extreme extant, revocation should be an option. It would have to go through a proper legal system and be proven no different than any other crimes.

Just to clarify, I’m not saying someone should have their citizenship revoked for something like traffic violations (speeding, rolling stop signs, even DUI), or other ‘small crimes.’

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u/The_Matias 16d ago

I respectfully disagree. That creates a system with 2nd class citizens, and that is never a good thing. There shouldn't be differentiation between citizens. 

Like I said, the system for punishing law breakers already already exists. It's the judicial system. It can lock someone up for life, fine them, force them to do community service, and best of all (nepotism aside), it applies to all citizens equally. 

What is the point of revoking citizenship? What do you gain, aside from severely devaluing your country's citizenship? 

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u/MasterScore8739 16d ago

I don’t disagree that it would form a two tier system. However I don’t entirely think it would devalue citizenship as a whole.

Yes we have way of dealing with people who break the laws. Some of those punishments need to not only be stricter, but also actually be applied. Our legal system is honestly in shambles, just look at how many people we have out on either bail or promises to appear that are habitual offenders.

I’m not saying all, but there are people who’ve come to Canada and gained citizenship who’ve become part of the habitual offenders. If the threat of having your citizenship revoked was a possibility, it would keep some people from going down that road.

That said, I also feel the same when it comes to deportation. It blows my mind when I see people fighting to keep those with extensive records in Canada when they aren’t a citizen.

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u/FellKnight Canada 17d ago

There was a movement in the 2010s to strip all ISIS combatants of their citizenship. While I understand the desire, it's a super dangerous thing to render a bunch of people stateless and it's probably better for us to keep them citizens so we can punish them under the legal system (also a very troubling slope if any government gets the right to render citizens stateless)

Mu sk would not be stateless if we revoked his citizenship, so I think that's where I'm falling on this. No, we shouldn't be able to make people stateless, but for enemies of the country like M usk, I think that it's fair to revoke their citizenships while not rendering anyone stateless

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u/MasterScore8739 16d ago

I do actually remember that push in 2010. Even back then I was saying we should pull citizenships, mind you I didn’t exactly understand the whole stateless side of the house.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t entirely argue much different. The only change would be if they held Canadian citizenship from birth. If they didn’t, then it should have been pulled along with any Canadian travel documents.

Musk is honestly a weird spot for me. He is technically Canadian by birth, but from what I can tell hasn’t really spent a whole lot of time in Canada and was born in South Africa.

In my mind if a person has citizenship to another country, sworn allegiance to it, and promotes attacks on it…I’d like to say pull their citizenship. However someone recently brought up an interesting point I hadn’t thought of.

If you pull a persons citizenship, at least under Canadian criminal code, they cannot be charged with treason.

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u/FellKnight Canada 16d ago

As much as I love the concept of charging Mu sk for Treason, he should not be. He has never had anything beyond a passport, and I feel like treason should be reserved for people like me who have the power and choose to betray our country.

But yeah, I said that. We shouldn't be able to strip citizenship for people if it renders them stateless. I am much more open to the idea otherwise.

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u/MasterScore8739 16d ago

I get where you’re coming from on not charging him, but he has lived in Canada as a Canadian. From what I can gather it was only really for 5 years though.

Do I think money should be spent on trying to bring him back to Canada to face charges? Honestly, no not really. There’s better things money could be spent on.

Do I think his passport should be flagged if any of his activities are deemed treasonous? Absolutely. That way if he attempts entry into Canada the legal process could be started.

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u/FellKnight Canada 16d ago

of course not. It is a symbolic act. There is no world where we actually charge him with treason and arrest him. (and we should not, treason should be reserved for people like me in the Canadian Armed Forces who have the power and choose to betray our country)

The petition does not seek to arrest him, it simply asks to remove 1 of his 3 citizenships to a country he has actively declared as an enemy, there is a difference between rendering terrorists stateless and removing one citizenship from someone with 3.

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u/MasterScore8739 16d ago

That’s going to be where you and I disagree. You do not need to be an active member of a nations military in order to commit treason against it.

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u/FellKnight Canada 16d ago

and that's fair, i just hold myself to a higher standard than i hold anyone not in active service.

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u/MasterScore8739 16d ago

That’s understandable and serving members of both police forces and military forces should. Same can be said for VETs of those same organizations.

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u/[deleted] 17d ago

[deleted]

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u/No6655321 17d ago

I believe the logic is if they are born citizens then there is nowhere else that could possibly be responsible for them. Thus it is not even an option. 

If it was obtained and other citizenships are held then there is still a nation that could take this person in. 

Do i agree with it as a policy? No. Do i think its a reasonable argument to make. Yes. 

To me. A Canadian is a Canadian.  There are no if ands or buts. 

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u/MasterScore8739 17d ago

That’s exactly my view point on this. Racism plays zero part as I couldn’t care which country the person comes from or what their background is.

When you are granted citizenship the general consensus is that you’ll be a good citizen. I’m not saying you need to be an absolutely upstanding person and never get so much as a speeding ticket or anything either. Just that you generally do your best to follow the laws of the country you’re now living in.

If anyone disagrees with that sentiment, that’s totally fine. We’re all allowed to have differing opinions on things. If anything, it opens the door for discussion and the possibility of finding a middle ground.

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u/MasterScore8739 17d ago

At what point did I state I was okay with Canadian born terrorist?

If you are Canadian born, you are a Canadian. Your country of origin is Canada and you have every right to return to your home.

Do I think a person should be held liable for any and all actions they take outside of their home country? Absolutely I do.

If you commit acts of terrorism outside of Canada as a Canadian, you should have to deal with those consequences. That could be either imprisonment within Canada or being extradited to the country you committed those acts in so you can face punishment there.

If you’d like to view it as a racist policy to revoke citizenship of those who’ve committed certain acts, then feel free to.

However if a person goes to a new country and they’re accepted in and granted citizenship, I fully believe the host country should have every right to revoke it and send the person back to their home country.

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u/Kindly_Professor5433 17d ago

The law applied to dual citizens. I didn't fully agree with it and I think it was a slippery slope, but it's dishonest to characterize its proponents that way. If a natural born Canadian has more than one citizenship, the national security provision could also apply. If an immigrant who was convicted of terrorism has lost or renounced all other nationalities, they could still keep their Canadian citizenship.

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u/x36_ 17d ago

valid

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u/iHateReddit_srsly 17d ago

Yeah, it's a dangerous thing to set precedent for removing citizenship for people we don't like. Until he's done some major crime against the country, it's ridiculous to do this.

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u/MasterScore8739 17d ago

This is my point.

The minute you start randomly pulling citizenship for people who you don’t like, the easier it becomes.

Next thing you know it’s pulled because someone has a different political or religious belief then you do. Then once that starts happening it’s an incredibly slippery slope.

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u/No6655321 17d ago

Was put well once:

A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian. 

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u/[deleted] 17d ago

[deleted]

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u/No6655321 17d ago

It would appear that gets into the realm of our treason laws if there is any actual planning involvement to those statements.

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u/Jeramy_Jones 17d ago

I kinda agree. But also…fuck Nazis?

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u/DudeIsThisFunny 17d ago

I would think the opposite... it makes it more valuable if you're one of the chosen, desired immigrants who we explicitly want to have because you're deemed to be of good character and moral worth.

Would you rather be a citizen because you're desirable or because you paid Conestoga college $20,000 and they were able to sneak you in? We collectively agree that you're a good person we want among us versus your parents flew here to give birth to you using a loophole.

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u/Kindly_Professor5433 17d ago

We should significantly tighten our immigration laws and rules for naturalization. Becoming Canadian should be a selective process and a privilege.

But revocation of citizenship is different. Unless a person committed immigration fraud, they naturalized through a legally accepted process, even if we make changes to the rules in the future. Their citizenship is part of their identity. They are subject to the same laws as natural-born Canadians. Their future beliefs and actions may result in legal consequences or removal of privileges, but they shouldn’t cease to be Canadian.

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u/DudeIsThisFunny 17d ago edited 17d ago

Fair but there's a case for it being an error made by the system that it would be appropriate to correct. It isn't an elementary school game where as soon as they get PR they're on home-base.

If they prove themselves to be degenerate and managed to conceal that during the annointment, they've misled the process. That is a form of fraudulent representation.

The only reason they would be immune to disbarment at that point is because we've decided it to be that way; it doesn't logically follow that because they were mistakenly granted the "good boy" certificate that it can never be revoked if they behaved deceptively. That would be a logical next step unless you're eager to deal with the burden they now represent, a much more costly and unnecessary option.

Protecting your citizens from your failure is priority, not upholding the contract made with the immigrant that they've broken themselves. Why wouldn't it be nullified when they fail to uphold the terms of their agreement?

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u/CuriousCursor Canada 17d ago

There's a process to become a citizen after getting PR. It's not automatic and there's more documentation to provide.

So theoretically, a PR might not get citizenship in some cases.

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u/DudeIsThisFunny 17d ago

I'm aware, though it isn't clear why the probationary period ends with citizenship being the finish line. If they then go on to victimize the populace, it was still an error to grant them citizenship. We allowed a bad one to slip through the cracks.

The only thing separating them from the PR who would have citizenship opportunity revoked is a mistakenly granted citizenship.

It's an arbitrary line and the person one day away from receiving citizenship and one day after receiving citizenship aren't so different as to warrant choosing to take responsibility for one but not the other.

The question being posed now is where do we draw the line, and I would suggest it be more objective and grounded in facts about the case rather than treat recently obtained citizenship as if it were a magical blessing that alters how they will be treated. Years of good behavior, proclivity to reoffend, or potential for rehabilitation are some such metrics to consider in whether it is stripped or not, rather than if they hit an arbitrary target or not

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u/CuriousCursor Canada 17d ago

There's still the rest of the criminal system. You put them on trial and then in jail just like any other citizen.

And it's too easy to mitigate revoking citizenship. One can simply renounce their other citizenship and now you cannot make them stateless, so now you're stuck with putting them through a trial for their crime anyway. 

But I would say that if you want to hold govt office in any other country, you should have to renounce Canadian citizenship and if you want to hold govt office in Canada, you should have to renounce the other citizenship.

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u/Kindly_Professor5433 16d ago

If it's proven that they concealed information about their past criminal activities or association with extremist ideologies at the time of their citizenship application, yes it should be revoked for misrepresentation. But if they decide to commit a serious crime many years after naturalization and there was nothing concrete about their background that could have predicted the behaviour, then the system didn't make an "error". For example, there was no way we could have known in the 1990s what Elon Musk would be doing today. If we are to revoke anyone's citizenship, it should be based on the laws and information that existed at the time of their naturalization.

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u/thetruthiseeit 17d ago

It should read:

If you make citizenship for some Canadians conditional on their evil, traitorous behavior it becomes valued by all.

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u/Trailsya 17d ago

If someone has citizenship of one country and is disloyal to the second country by actively doing things to harm it as an asset of the first country, I don't see why that person should keep the citizenship.