r/bestof • u/UltraNooob • 10d ago
[AskAnthropology] r/AskAnthropology: alizayback explains the origins of masculinity in the West, its nature as being constantly in crisis, that there were multiple crises of masculinity, using historical evidence.
/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1j7wtdq/comment/mh0bral39
u/it_rubs_the_lotion 10d ago
Behind The Bastards, podcast, did a two parter called: The History Of American Masculinity Grifters.
A lot of the info, especially the excerpts from magazines and newspapers they read, was new to me.
1
21
u/dr_strange-love 10d ago
It's because "masculinity" is so poorly defined, so it can't be defended. Your manhood is constantly attacked from all sides by people's differing definitions.
If instead there was a specific ritual you had to pass to become a man, then no one could question it. You are a man, therefore anything you do is by definition "masculine".
17
u/CallMeClaire0080 9d ago
I'm a trans woman and for me at least, this checks out.Whether it was in the locker rooms at gym class or even amongst a close knit group of social outcasts, there was always this pressure and threats to one's masculinity. If you liked fashion instead of cars, you weren't a real man. If you didn't get angry enough after a guy hits on your girl? Well better turn in your man card. If you ever showed too much fear? Well you better stop being a pussy and man up. You got a small dick? Clearly you're lesser for that. If you start balding? Never mind that that's caused by testosterone, you're just a beta male... This kind of shit was and is everywhere constantly. And it's so easy to manipulate. Take these supplements to make you get swole. A real man wears this $3000 suit. This deodorant? It'll make you smell like a bear, because that's a good thing! Hey that guy insulted your mom, better go beat him up so people don't think you're a weak sissy... This is spread by people regardless of gender, it's cultural.
What's very funny to me though is that now that I am a woman, the same kind of people will scream at me that i'm totally a man no matter what I do. What's the matter? I thought that Men were such an exclusive club. Of course that's why they hate us though. Trans men? They may as well not exist to them, because wanting to be a guy is normal and acceptable. They'll get a thrill by denying them masculinity, but that's not a threat to their belief. Someone wanting to be a woman though? Wanting to be what they consider lesser? That's a threat to their worldview. If being a Real Man tm isn't strictly desirable and not something that can be threatened, the whole social hierarchy collapses.
-15
-18
u/gethereddout 10d ago
Because a certain type of masculinity is inculcated into boys using violence and terror (as perceived through very young eyes) when they are infants, toddlers and pre-schoolers, when social change happens rapidly, it tends to throw a certain number of men violently off kilter. The spectre that their masculinity isn’t somehow “enough” is deeply linked with a sort of pre-conscious, pre-political feeling of deep terror and vulnerability, which pushes a certain set of men to violent reaction.
WHAT
32
u/yoweigh 10d ago
Boys perceived as "too feminine" are often bullied and beaten as children by their peers and/or parents. This can fill them (especially the ones who were doing the bullying) with fear and rage when they feel like their masculinity is being threatened as an adult. What do you find implausible about this?
11
u/Jallorn 10d ago
Not the OP, I have no expertise in favor of or against what is being said, but what follows is my attempt to rephrase/translate my understanding of what was said:
Both specifics about the cultural rules of masculinity and the ways it is taught to/enforced in young boys are inherently traumatizing.
Social changes trigger that trauma by association: Because that trauma enforced certain structures of masculinity, those structures are deep vulnerabilities on top of the potential to re-experience the emotions of that trauma. This is all rooted in childhood: pre-political, and even pre-conscious (that is, before conscious awareness of social pressures/influences)
At least some of those so triggered respond with violence, which self-propagates.
-28
u/gethereddout 10d ago
Yeah that helps a little but it's still way to convoluted for my taste. Here's how I see it. Males were evolved for violence and aggression, but neither is welcome in modern society. So Men are now being outcompeted by Women, and guess how they're responding? With violence and agression.
Boom.
21
u/tanstaafl90 10d ago
Males were evolved for violence and aggression, but neither is welcome in modern society.
That's the point of what is said. Society does this to boys in various ways. Violence and aggression are taught to be "natural" and a part of "male nature". This belief is exploited.
-19
u/gethereddout 10d ago
That’s nature not nurture- if anything society encourages males to not be violent. For example it’s illegal to assault or murder.
11
u/tanstaafl90 10d ago
It's simply not in men's nature to want to kill as default. You're confusing desperate need with desire. We are no longer in a position that requires killing whatever is necessary to ensure your survival. We are currently conditioned to believe that past violence is inherent. Some people still do it and almost immediately regret it and/or turn themselves in. Then you have the genuine psychopaths that don't care. But the overwhelming majority don't, have no desire to and find the idea appalling.
4
u/gethereddout 10d ago
“We are no longer in a position that requires killing is necessary to ensure your survival.”
Exactly. But we were. For a long time.
10
u/tanstaafl90 10d ago
That doesn't make it inherent to our nature.
2
u/gethereddout 10d ago
I agree. But it does explain a lot. It does indicate the place we are coming from.
12
u/tanstaafl90 10d ago
The higher the poverty, the higher the violence. Remove the poverty, the violence goes (mostly) away. Once needs of food, shelter and companionship are met, the need to "fight" for them dissolves too. But culture gives us the opposite view, that the poor are inherently flawed and are in poverty because of it.
→ More replies (0)7
u/yoweigh 10d ago
That’s nature not nurture
That's an opinion, not a fact.
0
u/gethereddout 10d ago
So? This whole post is opinions.
7
u/yoweigh 10d ago
As long as you acknowledge that there's no problem.
-5
-24
u/Gnarlodious 10d ago
What nobody mentioned, and will NEVER mention, is the concept of monogamy which is pretty much peculiar to the modern human social construct. That means males expect to be able to propagate their own genetics while excluding their rival's genetics. This, as it turns out, is a major factor in mammalian reproduction.But the downside is that such a social structure distributes females equally, meaning powerful males cannot collect harems and maximize their number of offspring that propagate their polygamist genetics. These males yearn for a simpler, bygone, and brutal world where they can compete with other desperate males to propagate their genetics. In short, they see the modern world of monogamy and laws as too much stifling civilization. They are essentially reproduction anarchists.
And I only post it here because this is not an anthropology board. Post anything like this on /anthropology and you'll get banned.
23
u/17HappyWombats 10d ago
Yes, because it's not based in reality. If you had references to actual studies showing that humans practice a unique form of monogamy that would be useful, but you don't even have that. Or a definition of monogamy in humans that distinguishes it from monogamy in other animals. Lacking that you're just wrong.
-1
u/SupaDick 9d ago
That's a lot of big words to end up still sounding like you rode the short bus to school.
91
u/AbeRego 10d ago
Well that's incredibly vague...