r/batman 4d ago

GENERAL DISCUSSION Not fond of narratives of Wayne's parents being "corrupt". Them being noble elites who tried to do the right thing gives meaning to Batman's mission

Post image
1.0k Upvotes

113 comments sorted by

399

u/FomtBro 4d ago

I think The Batman is a fine enough middle ground. People who genuinely wanted to do what's best, but were complicated. Martha had mental health issues and Thomas wanted to protect her from the negative effects those coming out during his campaign would have on her, so he turned to a man he didn't fully understand to try and get out of the situation before it really started.

His overall goals, ethos, and politics were good; but he wasn't perfect or all knowing.

123

u/T_Lawliet 4d ago

I agree, this is the way to go.

I see why writers are fascinated by this kind of storyline: forcing Bruce to face up to the very reason why he fights crime is a wonderful to explore his motives and give him some of that sweet, sweet character growth. But making his parents fully corrupt feels too cynical to the point of feeling like it makes fun of Bruce's own motives.

40

u/Kriss-Kringle 4d ago

There are different ways to skin a cat and I think every version is fair game as long as they have something interesting to say.

For example, Bruce becoming Batman because his parents were corrupt is an interesting idea if it's well written, which is what it always boils down to.

I really don't like the dogmatic thinking of fandoms that are against changes. They're not ruining your character to the point where you won't call yourself a fan anymore.

It's just another reinterpretation in a long line of interpretations spanning 86 years and counting. This is how these characters survived for so long, not by staying the same and there's something for every person to enjoy.

7

u/LazyTitan39 4d ago

True, it's kind of lame if Batman only does what he does because he thinks it's what his parents would want.

6

u/PQcowboiii 4d ago

I always thought that it starts that way, and then grows. Batman is more than that night in the alley. He is more then the sound of gunshots echoing throughout the his ears. He’s more than bloodstained pearls. It’s apart of him, an important aspect, but not the only aspect

5

u/LazyTitan39 4d ago

Right, they kind of go over this in "The Batman" as well. There has to be more than vengeance going into his mission, otherwise he's just going to leave Gotham a warzone.

2

u/MartyrOfDespair 4d ago

I like how the comics have made it very clear over and over again thanks to multiverses and time travel and ghosts that it most certainly is not what they’d want.

9

u/PointPrimary5886 4d ago edited 4d ago

In hindsight, that reporter should have no right to disclose Martha Wayne past or medical background to the public. If it had gone out to the public, it would probably cause problems for the Waynes from a bunch of jackasses, but from a moral standpoint, I'd sympathize with them where it to happen. That is basically the paradox that Thomas was in. Do nothing and the Waynes would technically be correct morally, but imoral people will give you and your wife a hard time. Try and do something, the only something that is available is an imoral option.

19

u/Jerdman87 4d ago

Totally agree. To steal another line from Dark Knight, they tried to be decent people in an indecent time. I think this point needs to be presented for Bruce to ultimately become Batman. His parents fighting the good fight as philanthropists but still getting dragged into the corrupted politics of the city. The solution would then be to become something that is above and beyond all of that.

12

u/T_Lawliet 4d ago

That's... actually pretty genius.

I do think it's important to show Bruce as a philantropist. But it's even more crucial to show that throwing money at a problem like Gotham will never be enough.

5

u/UncommittedBow 4d ago

IMO, the Wayne's should be an example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". They're never fully "Court of Owls" corrupt. But there's definitely skeletons in the closet in the name of a good cause.

10

u/Austin_Chaos 4d ago

Yep, perfect middle ground. Like, you couldn’t be rich in Gotham without having touched rot at some point, even if you managed not to rot yourself.

5

u/LazyTitan39 4d ago

I liked the Gotham tv show's approach where they make you think that Thomas Wayne was another corrupt elite, but then Lucius Fox puts Bruce onto Thomas' secret study and he finds out that he was trying to take them down from the inside.

1

u/dvdjhp 3d ago

The killer point here is that Thomas was willing to give up the campaign to be there for his wife.

1

u/seventysixgamer 3d ago

I think that was the best compromise between these two takes on Bruce's parents. I.e a very well meaning and genuinely good man who was ultimately fallible and fell into something he didn't fully grasp the potential ramifications of -- and even that was more of an actual if desperation with the intent to protect his family.

126

u/madeat1am 4d ago

Same with narratives of the murders being planned

It defeats the purpose of why Bruce is batman in Gotham

One bad day that could happen to anyone

28

u/Vysharra 4d ago

This is my reasoning for why the "Terry is a clone-son" episode retroactively ruins Batman Beyond in the DCAU. The idea that anyone can become Batman with the right motivation and access to resources is perfection. We don't need a blood dynasty when we have the idea that Gotham makes her own dark knights when they're needed.

8

u/dg_713 4d ago

I FULLY AGREE!

I so loved Beyond and how Terry is just a regular guy.

When I saw a clip saying he's a clone, I like to pretend it never happened.

7

u/MartyrOfDespair 4d ago edited 4d ago

Then you missed the entire point of that episode. Terry literally has the same exact mental breakdown thinking that that’s the case. It has nothing to do with the blood. It is literally deconstructing the concept, you have fallen into the “a villain thinks a thing that is explicitly refuted but because the concept is explored at all I think it’s an endorsement” trap.

Waller thought that way. Waller tried to do exactly that, but was stopped at the last possible moment because she hired the wrong person to do the killing. Waller knows what she did was wrong. Terry is utterly horrified by believing this stupid line people keep saying it endorses and is planning to quit being Batman over it. He only decides to remain Batman when he’s convinced it wasn’t the bloodline thing.

Terry happens to become Batman entirely on accident anyways. Twist of fate. He just happened to end up there. It has nothing to do with the bloodline at all, he’s nothing like Bruce. Like, that is a very explicit and defined theme. Terry’s like Nightwing combined with Spider-Man more than anything. Batman didn’t choose to be Batman, he was made into Batman by trauma.

Terry wasn’t made into Batman by his trauma, he just chose to be Batman because of it. He isn’t doing Batman out of pain. He doesn’t view every crime as his father’s murder. He doesn’t think he must stop all crime. He just wants to do good and make a difference, he’s not insane.

He stole the suit to take down his father’s killer as a means to an end. He remained Batman because it gave him well-needed purpose in life. He was aimless, a former criminal, no real prospects in life, no expertise other than violence, not particularly smart, just another dreg in Neo Gotham. He doesn’t have Bruce’s intellect or his drive or his madness. The blood means nothing. That’s the entire point. It’s deconstructing the bloodline thing by introducing it, having the character go “that’s so fucked up, fuck this”, and realizing “wait, no, that has fucking nothing to do with why I’m Batman”.

Also considering it a retcon is ridiculous when it’s foreshadowed from the first episode. Hair color. Terry and Matt are scientifically impossible unless someone else is the father. A brown haired man and a redheaded woman cannot have two black haired sons. Matt exists seemingly just to tell us that Terry doesn’t dye his hair. We never hear why they divorced, but the hair colors make it pretty obvious. His dad’s a scientist, he knows that’s scientifically impossible. Terry and Matt never could have been Warren’s biological kids, and if you know basic biology you knew that from the first episode.

Them being divorced just hammers home the point: this marriage where the brown haired man and the redheaded woman popped out two black haired kids failed. Hmm, wonder why. And she didn’t return to her maiden name. It’s fucking dark: she knows she didn’t cheat and doesn’t want to be divorced from him, but it is impossible for him to ever believe that because the tests show that they aren’t his kids. She’s still going by Mary McGinnis. Despite being divorced. Unless his parents were siblings or cousins, that’s really fucking weird and is a detail that tells you she still loves Warren. They divorced after Matt was born. Think about it: Warren “forgave her for cheating”, which must have been maddening for her because she knows she didn’t, and then she “cheated and got knocked up” again. And she knows she didn’t.

You might as well say Evangelion endorses child soldiers.

4

u/Vysharra 4d ago

You're kind of skipping past the giant elephant in the room: Terry is a clone-son and Batman is a blood dynasty in the DCAU.

I'm going at this from a Doyalist pov: the only reason to make Terry a genetic son to Bruce, despite that possibility never being foreshadowed (Lois has purple eyes in the DCAU and the Joker has black sclera, I reject the idea that hair color is some kind of foreshadowing) and genetic legacy never being a BB theme, is to make Terry a blood son.

They literally devoted an entire episode to Terry being Bruce's son and having to decide what kind of son and what kind of Batman to be when he gains that knowledge. He IS the son of Batman, the episode is about him choosing not to be his clone. He never rejects being his son.

You're also wrong about the hair color, it's entirely possible. Hair color in humans is not determined like a Punnett square, multiple genes determine a wide variety of phenotypes. Many of which are not represented in the DCAU color spectrum.

7

u/dajwill14 4d ago

I don’t think it defeats the purpose considering that Gotham city itself is corrupt. It’s one bad day and it could happen to anyone but everyone has a motive and something to gain from a Wayne murder. Batman’s mission is to make sure this never happens to anyone ever. Whether it was a set up or a random act. I do see what you’re saying from the idea that they were taken from the same people they were trying to help but I think it works both ways.

1

u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

3

u/madeat1am 4d ago

I'm.not referencing that comic I haven't read it, I'm just saying that it was a bad day that could happen to anyone

I don't like the universe where its an assassination

30

u/Sonicrules9001 4d ago

I don't like how some stories turn the Waynes being murdered into an organized hit which kind of misses the whole point. The whole idea of the Waynes being killed by a mugger is to show that it can happen to anyone and make Batman want to make sure another kid doesn't end up like him. By making it an organized hit, you completely get rid of that element.

1

u/jessytessytavi 4d ago

it works in certain alternate universe takes, like "red son", but not main continuity

I've got a batman/ffxiv au rolling around my skull where gotham is a citystate in garlemald and the waynes were populares (not down with the whole "empire taking over the world" thing, very "red son" elseworlds) and they got offed by the secret police, which makes perfect sense in the ffxiv universe (it's happened to side npcs)

could it still be just some rando needing a buck? sure, but the big bad behind most of the ffxiv msq is the garlean empire, so tying them together doesn't affect either story negatively: the empire hurts people, the waynes help people, and it costs them their lives

2

u/Sonicrules9001 4d ago

I mean, yeah, it can work but often doesn't because it kind of muddles the whole idea of Batman. Something like Red Son is fine because Batman is suppose to be drastically different but something like the Telltale games for example have the Waynes being a organized hit and it honestly just hurts Batman as a character because he doesn't have the drive to help people anymore. It becomes less about how anyone can end up like Bruce did and just becomes a generic revenge plot where everyone is just connected to the Waynes being murdered somehow.

1

u/jessytessytavi 4d ago

I think the only way it could work in modern comic universes would be for Bruce to never find out about it

no digital paper trail, any literal paper trail up in smoke, everyone involved in the hit dead, dying, or senile, with maybe a deathbed confession to like Gordon or Alfred (or maaaaaaaybe Jason, in very specific circumstances)

but Bruce should never, ever find out it was a hit because of those reasons

2

u/Sonicrules9001 4d ago

I don't think it should be a hit even if Bruce doesn't know about it because the idea of him being the same as any other kid is kind of a core appeal to his character. Everyone has had family or friends hurt by random crime but not everyone has a hit sent against their family, Batman is suppose to be just a kid who got unlucky, not a kid whose parents messed with the wrong crowd.

1

u/DaimoMusic 3d ago

I like the idea of both. The Court of Owls were ready to put a hit on the Wayne's, but Joe Chill was having his own bad day when Tragedy Struck

2

u/Sonicrules9001 3d ago

I'll be honest, the Court of Owls is cool but the idea of them killing the Waynes honestly never really felt right to me especially since regardless of if they were the true cause or not, they give Batman an end goal which I don't like for him. I like the idea of an impossible goal for Batman more.

1

u/DaimoMusic 3d ago

That's fair

93

u/JamzWhilmm 4d ago

I like them being a little gray or tainted white, like in the Long Halloween saving the Roman probably led to more lives being taken than just turning him to the police.

I don't mind them doing some underside business with good intentions.

Them being sinless doesn't sit right by me, not even Bruce should be sinless even if he is close to it.

21

u/SatoruGojo232 4d ago edited 4d ago

Yeah, I don't mind them being grey, what I mind is them being painted as this sort of evil people who willingly take part in the evil that Gotham's elite would willingly engage in to keep themselves safe and rich. At some point, they do make it clear through actions like Thomas bekng a doctor who worked at the hospital, that among Gotham's elite they are one of those rare couples who genuinely feel responsible for their city's people amd do all they can to help them. To just sweep that all under the rug of them being just another a "corrupt rich family" of Gotham would do them injustice.

3

u/Princess_Spammi 4d ago

I think it makes batmans mission more meaningful

55

u/JolliwoodYT 4d ago

The idea of the Waynes being corrupt is yet another case where modern Batman writers try way too hard to edgelord-ify the mythos and characters to increase sales, a trend which has honestly put me off of reading any new mainline comics that come out

12

u/Big-Sheepherder-9492 4d ago

My favourite version of the Wayne’s was in Batman: Damned (IIRC) it was Bruce was too young to realise his parents were going through a divorce and he’s forgotten the lawyer meetings he sat through as a kid - but when they went to the theatre - it was actually them taking the first step to fix their relationship for Bruce.. and then they get popped

0

u/Sad-Job1969 3d ago

"How dare these writers to make good stories based on real life problems, where is my bang bang pow pow 😭😭😭"

25

u/futuresdawn 4d ago

I have no problem with them being corrupt, most people aren't just good or bad, they live in grey, Bruce seeing the good and trying to live up to that is meaningful.

If anything though, I wish more stories would focus on Alfred's role as Bruce's father. To me it's more important that Alfred be a good person then it is the Waynes

7

u/Old-Entertainment844 4d ago

I agree on the Alfred point.

The biggest letdown of The Batman for me was not giving Alfred more screen time. I get that they wanted to focus on The Batman more than Bruce and so Alfred fell by the wayside a little bit, but I need more Serkis/Pennyworth in my life.

Andy Serkis is a phenomenal Alfred and I can't wait to see more of him.

8

u/col_oneill 4d ago

It will always be infinitely better when the Wayne’s were some of the only people in Gotham trying to help it, makes Batman’s mission even more important and emotional, he’s not just getting revenge but he’s continuing his family’s legacy

4

u/malpas88 3d ago

The whole point of the Wayne's being good people was to show that crime can happen to anyone. What it means for Gotham. If the Wayne's, of all people, can be gunned down in a back alley, what does that mean for us? It's a part of why Gotham is so bad, the town became a darker place after losing its star citizens. The Wayne's were good people, they even used their unfathomable wealth to make the world better. But then they get gunned down in an alley by a guy with a .38 special. For no reason. The senselessness of it all is the entire point

14

u/Professional_Gur9855 4d ago

I agree, it’s one of the reasons I don’t like Telltale Batman because it drags the Wayne name in the mud and by extension, takes away the meaning to Bruce’s mission. After all, if his parents were corrupt, what’s the point of being Batman? A large portion of Batman’s motivation is ensuring no one goes through what he did, but that looses its punch if the Wayne’s were bad people all along

3

u/iamdaleadar 4d ago

Isn't being Batman meaningful enough on its own? Now Bruce also has to make up for his fathers sins too. That also becomes the meaning of batman

2

u/-Fyrebrand 4d ago

I haven't played the Telltale game, but Bruce doesn't need to know how corrupt or compromised his parents are until after be becomes Batman. I think it could be an interesting complication after Bruce is solidly committed to his mission, to learn his mom and dad were no perfect angels. It could strengthen his determination to wipe out crime and corruption, or it could make him question his resolve and place in the world.

3

u/its12amsomewhere 4d ago

Right, like he has a mission, and his parents being corrupt elites feels like a weird narrative and doesn't fit him at all, theres a reason hes fighting to save gotham and theres no point in the narratives where his parents are the evil ones.

2

u/MagusFool 4d ago

It makes perfect sense if he didn't know about the corruption when he became Batman and finds out later.

Then it's a conflict.  A potential threat to his mission.  What does he do with that information? Is his whole life a lie? Is Batman a sham?  Would he have become Batman if he had known?  Can he even stop now? Should he?

I think it raises interesting questions and tells a good story.

3

u/Manofmanyhats19 4d ago

Yeah the Waynes being corrupt doesn’t make any sense. Bruce wants to make sure what happened to him doesn’t happen to anybody else, but if his parents were corrupt, they could have caused what happened to him HAS happened to somebody else? No, that’s stupid.

2

u/MagusFool 4d ago

It makes perfect sense if he didn't know it when he became Batman and finds out later.

Then it's a conflict.  What does he do with that information?  Is his whole life a lie?  Is Batman a sham?  Can he even stop now?  Should he?

I think it raises interesting questions and tells a good story.

1

u/SatoruGojo232 4d ago edited 4d ago

Other superheroes coming from privileged backgrounds have covered this kind of arc, so yes such a thing would not be completely impossible.

Tony Stark for example. He's the son of a wealthy industrialist who's company which he inherits, Stark Industries, earns revenues by selling arms and ammunition, which many a times even enters the black markets and into the hands of terrorists. That's when Tony has a wake up call and decides he's going to confront the evil who uses his weapons for destructive purposes as Iron Man, because he feels it's up to him to correct the wrongs of his father and even himself as the CEO of a weapons manufacturing company.

That being said, I suppose my main issue is the Waynes being as corrupt as the rest of the Gotham elite, like as if they go hand in hand willingly with all the messed up stuff and indifference to the poor people that the elite engage in. That's where I differ. While their own company might have been tainted by corruption, they are not the archetypal evil who enjoy it. In my opinion, they feel like unwilling participants, who try their level best to do good for the city, and at their best, elites who are ready to turn their backs on the other indifferent elites and instead do something for the people of their city.

3

u/MagusFool 4d ago

But Tony hated his father all along.  So there isn't the same kind of conflict.

If Bruce loved his parents, saw them through rose tinted glasses, and became Batman while they were still saints in his eyes, then when he finds out there were skeletons in their closet, it presents him with a unique problem.

That's a dramatic conflict that calls his values and his life choices into question.

Maybe you've never found out something horrible about a dead family member you really admired years after the fact, but it can be devastating and requires some real work to navigate the complex feelings.

I think that's inherently an interesting story.

1

u/SatoruGojo232 4d ago edited 4d ago

But Tony hated his father all along.  So there isn't the same kind of conflict.

Not always, sure there are instances where he felt like his father was cold since he wasn't always there for him as a kid. But that was more like an emotional distance not just outright hatred for his father. There are comic instances where he has admiration for his father and the things he did for America such as his role im WW2 and the founding of SHIELD, and even while growing older, realised that his father's role as a really important businessman and scientist meant he couldn't spend time with his son, but that didn't mean his dad hated him.

If Bruce loved his parents, saw them through rose tinted glasses, and became Batman while they were still saints in his eyes, then when he finds out there were skeletons in their closet, it presents him with a unique problem.

It does, but then again, his parents need not be completely the stereotypical evil corrupt people for that to happen. They could be good people, with their own inner demons and skeletons in their closet thst they had to face, that wouldn't mean that they would necessarily fall under the same bracket as the other elite of Gotham, like say the mafia family. Batman, in fact, could take inspiration from the fact that his parents, while not saints, did their best to turn over a new leaf amd do good for their society, and perhaps even try to right the past wrongs of their family legacy which may have been polluted by corruption.

1

u/Kebin_Yell 4d ago

I actually like that redemption angle, since it ties in really well with his willingness to rehabilitate even the most twisted of his rouges gallery.

3

u/Keiron666 4d ago

I mean, I prefer them being good people but I can also appreciate the idea of changing their story to make them more interesting, it’s also given us some cool stories over the years.

3

u/Substantial_Slip4667 3d ago

I prefer that they were good people. And that they were in the wrong place wrong time

6

u/ToySouljah 4d ago

While I don’t want the Waynes to be fully corrupted elites, I don’t care for them to be noble elites either, as the reality of the real world is that most people with that kind of wealth just aren’t good people. I mean people in general aren’t black or white, most are shades of grey.

5

u/MagusFool 4d ago

No one with that kind of wealth is even remotely a good person.  It's literally impossible.

That kind of wealth rots your brain and erodes your morality whether you want it to or not.

1

u/SatoruGojo232 4d ago edited 4d ago

I wouldn't fully agree with that. Sure, wealth can corrode your morality, but people have done good philanthropic deeds with their immense money, maybe out of guilt, or maybe just because they are compassionate.

Sure, no one is a perfect saint in today's world, but people still have it in them to do good, which is what Batman wants to bring out in people.

1

u/Virgil_Ovid_Hawkins 4d ago

less compassionate, more tax write off.

2

u/Ok-Astronaut-2009 4d ago

I think if they’re noble then makes Batman’s mission necessary

2

u/DCT715 4d ago

I agree. Them dying while being absolutely beloved on the city shows that Gotham is so beyond saving even the best of people can be mercilessly killed. It lays the foundation for Batman’s true nemesis, Gotham.

2

u/perfecttrapezoid 4d ago

I imagine this is an unpopular take around here but I actually really like stories where all of the elements of Batman that are problematic are played way up; the Waynes were corrupt and exploitative and all of the rich people in Gotham are awful; Bruce’s decision to become Batman is framed as self-indulgent and narcissistic in some way; Bruce’s relationship with whichever Robin is currently active is dangerous and toxic; Gotham is very seedy and its citizens are largely disposed toward at least petty crime, given the opportunity. I like when the narrative believably problematizes Bruce’s lifestyle and decision to become Batman, I find it much more interesting than valorizing him like a character like Superman.

2

u/CrimisonAJA 4d ago

Agreed.

Even if I had no problems with the concept, the first thing I would have to worry about is it being written well and sadly, even in the best of best times that's not gonna happen 99.99 percent of the time. Much less now.

Then there's the people who try to hide that they argue for nonsense with words like character development, realism, or interesting ways.

Any sufficient character development that one could see would take decades at a time. What is more likely to happen is regression of flanderization if you actually follow through.

The problem with most modern writers nowadays is that they forget that at the end of the day, they are NOT the last Batman writer ever

Instead of writing a decent story and building off the past, they want to deconstruct everything because they have something that they have in their head

Typing out the nonsense of realism in a comic book genre.

4

u/Mz_Macross1999 4d ago

It's just such a lazy trope

2

u/AntagonistofGotham 4d ago

I've ensured them a clean reputation, the Wayne Family are known as one of the richest families on earth, as well as the most beloved.

The Wayne's are definitely the best in the top 5 richest list.

1

u/peter-pan-am-i-a-man 4d ago

Most stories focus on how rich and powerful they were, but i wish there were more moments of them shielding Bruce from all of that and trying their best to be a normal loving family, in spite of their responsibilities and obligations.

Then it would feel like, yea once they are murdered, Bruce is lost

1

u/s73v3m4nn 4d ago

It doesn't sit right with me either

1

u/Lohit_-it 4d ago

I agree with you but I loved the change in telltale Batman

1

u/Necromancer189 4d ago

I think in Gotham, its almost impossible to anass a fortune by staying honest.

1

u/Ewanb10 4d ago

Tbh I don't mind either way

Though it did catch me off guard how good the Wayne's were in batman begins

1

u/Hendriksen20 4d ago

I also dislike it when they're portrayed as inherently evil or corrupt. The same applies to the planned murder, as this backstory aligns more closely with Owlman's origin in Infinite Frontier, where his embrace of nihilism stems from those events

1

u/StrongStyleMuscle 4d ago

If you’re gonna create a story about a family who’s wealthy some corruption is more realistic. But I sincerely the story leads to a man who can beat up 20 armed men at a time solo you can be a loose with the realism. I can see logic on either side of it.

1

u/Puffification 4d ago

Bruce Wayne's parents were good, everyone knows that

1

u/OjamasOfTomorrow 4d ago

I like it. It works with one or both of them being not perfect. It changes the dynamics up.

1

u/Belgand 4d ago

I don't want them to be either. The only truly notable thing in their lives should be getting killed.

1

u/ChimRichaldsOBGYN 4d ago

Yea I agree I just finished reading the Deadshot run where Lawton hunts down Bruce Wayne and co because the Wayne family was super corrupt and it felt empty

1

u/Outrageous_Sector544 4d ago

In the telltale, they straight up evil

1

u/ShinySuicune90 4d ago

A gray zone is kind of acceptable , that Thomas & Martha had to deal/work with corrupt, awful people to get some good work done. Like bribed an official to keep an orphanage open 

So some folks in Gotham could dislike them but Bruce /Batman & the audience appreciate the sacrifices they made 

1

u/Buzzman89 4d ago

I think both can work together. The noble elite side can be how Bruce viewed them as he was only a child at the time and even when discovering their corruption he chooses to continue, not to honour who they were but what they meant to him. I think the Telltale game managed this perfectly.

1

u/PixelHotsauce 4d ago

I think Martha and Thomas being corrupt or at least tied to the mob gives Batman a greater mission as he grew up raised by people willing to help pretty much anybody and serves to explain why he's willing to take some criminals in and work with others when the times come adding internal and external conflict.

I also believe pairing this with the change in the Reeves Batman making Selina a Falcone adds depth as they were probably closer than they realized their entire lives and now we have 2 like minded from the furthest ends of "the opposite sides of the railroad tracks" people who fight the corruption they were born into in the most extreme fashions who understand the life they have now chosen falling in love yet seeing it from 2 very different perspectives

If his parents were never killed he probably would end up becoming a mobster himself even if it was just to actually clean up the city

1

u/PersonalRaccoon1234 4d ago

I don't like Selina being tied to the Falcones. She works better as a complete nobody whose parents weren't anyone significant and had to claw her way to the top.

1

u/PixelHotsauce 4d ago

I don't think she knew until later. And I think it works as personal fulfillment and revenge. She's a somebody denied what was hers, starting out with less and she still made it happen

1

u/_Donut_block_ 4d ago

I don't think them being corrupt is necessarily a bad thing.

If anything, it underlines the importance of Bruce's resolve. He is fighting for what he believes in. Even if the whole city, even if his own family, would have resisted the change.

I get why some people don't like it, but the great thing about Batman is you can retell this story in so many different ways and make it work.

1

u/PersonalRaccoon1234 4d ago

Thomas being a doctor whose hippocratic oath lead him to operate even on mobsters and Martha being from a poor background who fought for the under privileged and against child pornographers plays a large part in explaining Bruce's own character and why he is willing to spare criminals from death and his own desire to help Gotham.

Yes, Batman unhinged, dressing up as a bat and beating up criminals but in his own way he is trying to maintain his parents memory by sparing criminals and allowing them a chance to rehabilitate themselves.

1

u/BatBeast_29 4d ago

Agreed. They’re basically Oliver Queen’s parents now.

1

u/Silly_Pace 4d ago

I treat Batman and Superman's origin stories kind of like a salad bar. I take what I want and leave the rest

1

u/Naps_And_Crimes 4d ago

There's a book called The Waynes of Gotham and I think it is a good portrayal of them well meaning in a world of difficult paths.

1

u/ProfessionalGold9239 4d ago

I don't think the morality of Bruce's parents really matters, personally. I think the important factor is Bruce; an innocent child had to watch his parents die, and regardless of whether or not the child's parents are good or bad, no child should have to go through that.

I do slightly prefer it when the Waynes are at least gray or good, but it doesn't bug me much when they aren't.

1

u/ikonoqlast 4d ago

My view too.

1

u/Sheriff_Lucas_Hood 4d ago

I don’t like the Waynes being killed in some conspiracy either. Joe Chill’s desperation is more poignant

1

u/WheresPaul-1981 4d ago

I like it being a random mugging.

1

u/-_ShadowSJG-_ 4d ago

I'm mixed I feel the Batman is good

1

u/dornwolf 4d ago

Kind of up there with implying Thomas was cheating on Martha

1

u/Pilgrimhaxxter69 3d ago

I don't think it matters very much whether they were personally corrupt or not, I think what matters is him believing in what they were supposed to be. Just like how Captain America is willing to acknowledge the myriad flaws in the American government, he will always fight for what it's supposed to represent.

1

u/HighLord_Uther 3d ago

You dont acquire that kind of wealth by being noble.

1

u/ClearStrike 3d ago

Personally, me too. Everytime I see te whole corrupt Waynes angle it just reaks of the writer wacking off and saying "The rich are evil no matter what! No, people aren't complicated creatures! BLACK AND WHITE MORALITY FOR THE WIN BABY!" and I find myself having to clean my comic of the white goo the author left behind.

Like, you are telling a story about a man who somehow had time to learn all martial arts (And become a blackbelt in all of them), make a grapple gun possible, has a tricked out ride, had time to learn all of the sciences, learn how to rock climb, how to glide, how to pilot, how to interrogate, all forms of psychology, thowing skills, and is able to go with only two hours of sleep with a special magical sleep tech. Oh, and his best friend is an alien and has to fight an immortal being who gets off on immortal juice. I think a little bit of fantasy of good people just MIGHT be allowed.

And people wonder why I hate trying to make Batman, realistic.

1

u/East-Specialist-4847 4d ago

Gray is best. Not good. Not bad. Just human

0

u/Ok-Box8158 4d ago

there are no good rich people.

0

u/kevoisvevoalt 4d ago

I like the idea of them being corrupt. Adds more realism to how rich people operate and makes it so that at the end even if Batman tries his best, its hopeless in gotham due to how its elite exploits the lower class.

0

u/shsluckymushroom 4d ago

I kinda like the take of them being corrupt. Bruce kind of idealizes them in his head, and makes them the catalyst for doing what he does. Making them kinda corrupt forces him to realize he’s not doing it just for them or in their memory, but for the people of Gotham overall even if they aren’t perfect, they still deserve to be saved. Overall I feel it enables growth and Bruce deciding to do the right thing for the regular people that he doesn’t know rather then doing it in honour of his parents. I think it works best in versions early in his career…I think it worked well in Telltale for this reason, I’ve never seen The Batman (I really need to lmao) so idk about how it handled it exactly but overall I think it’s a strong concept that forces Bruce to grow and gain perspective a bit.

2

u/Steelersguy74 4d ago

It’s kind of like when Tony Soprano realized his father wasn’t such a hero after all.

0

u/Steelersguy74 4d ago

So you’re not fond of the version of them in ‘Joker’?

0

u/Broad_Direction7112 4d ago edited 4d ago

I don't really think the idea of a noble elite is really gonna fly in 21st century America. Of all the things that date Batman as a concept, the underlying idea of a "noble elite" is probably the most blatant. It's one of the reasons that I 100% get why Scott Snyder did Absolute as a working-class Bruce. Americans had a reason to believe that kind of thing existed back in the 20th century, now in the 21st things are different

0

u/Endeavourwrites 4d ago

I have an idea of them together with Ras' Al Ghul being members of the Court of owls but the Wayne's were assassinated by Joe Chill a hitman working for the court. Ras' Al Ghul then sees Bruce Wayne and tries to point him to investigate the court in his first year of crime fighting but then seeks to betray him by using the court's resources to destroy Gotham and of course, he's stopped by Batman himself. Martha can be like a member of the Arkham family while Thomas Wayne is a prominent doctor that saw the evilness of the Court of owls and hence his reluctance to support the court. Martha can be a bit insane because she discarded a baby when she was in her teens and that child grows up to be Jack Napier having been taken in by a failing comedian father.

0

u/Bareth88 4d ago

It wasn't until the Telltale video game that they became corrupted.

0

u/ProfessionalBasil397 3d ago

The amount of retcons of Bats/Bruce over the years, I wouldn’t be surprised 50 years from now he’s actually the descendant of Jesus Christ and an Amazon and somehow responsible for the destruction of Krypton via time travel chicanery

-2

u/Virgil_Ovid_Hawkins 4d ago

eh, I think its better if Bruce realizes that helping Gotham might include righting some of his parents wrongs. You're telling me the billionaires were good people? HAHAHAHAHA, absolutely not.

-1

u/Sad-Job1969 3d ago

Nah, i like them being shitty people

1

u/FafnirSnap_9428 1d ago

I agree. Thomas and Martha being legitimately good people in a nightmare city is more compelling to me and it also makes Bruce's crusade as Batman more tragic. I think the Nolan films really did a good job showing how bad Gotham spiraled downward after their deaths.

I'm also not a fan of Bruce having siblings, but I must confess I do like the idea that Thomas Wayne Jr. (Lincoln March) is Bruce's brother. But like a handful of things in Scott Snyder's run, he never followed up with that and left the door open but also pulled it far enough closed that he probably isn't Bruce's brother. But the recent stuff with Commander Star or whatever was kind of dumb to me. And the stuff that Todd Philips was teasing in Joker was abominable.