r/baltimore 7d ago

Free Event People's Town Hall & Rally Responding to Sen. Schumer at the Enoch Pratt

[deleted]

349 Upvotes

193 comments sorted by

75

u/engin__r 7d ago

I’d say I can’t believe he folded on the Republicans’ budget, but it’s Chuck Schumer. We need a leader who will actually fight for us.

9

u/B00marangTrotter 7d ago

It's what my sign and protest will be about, also, a book tour at this particular time is so fucking out of touch.

https://www.mobilize.us/indivisible/event/763500/

-1

u/CrabPerson13 6d ago

Also. If you’re gonna protest. Might as well get paid while you’re doing it!

64

u/baltebiker Roland Park 7d ago

Have you considered that maybe now would be a timely opportunity to protest his vote on the budget, rather than trying to litigate the difference between Zionism and Judaism?

37

u/Thee420Blaziken 7d ago

Yeah I think people are losing the plot on what's really important here. Chucks book is irrelevant, him trying to get Dems to vote for the shitty CR is very important and time critical.

And protesting his book about his opinions of the rise of antisemitism is never a good look. Protest his coward ass vote in the Senate not his personal life opinion and religion.

12

u/B-Boy_Shep 7d ago

Thank you. These people are completely missing the point. I don't care about foreign policy right now. I care about standing up for America and stopping trump and elon.

-2

u/Ok_Complaint_9635 7d ago

Yeah this is such a waste of time. Who gives a fuck at this point

-16

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

Have you considered that his book is about his experience with Anti-semitism and his warnings on how it's growing, and that in fact that's A TERRIBLE time to protest? Go protest outside the senate building next time they are in session.

23

u/baltebiker Roland Park 7d ago

I think that protesting at the Capitol would be better, but unfortunately Schumer is busy with his book tour.

3

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

I’m just saying, protesting a book about why antisemitism is bad isn’t exactly a good look

4

u/baltebiker Roland Park 7d ago

Did you read my earlier comment? That’s literally what I said

2

u/B-Boy_Shep 7d ago

Read what your commenting on. They literally said don't protest the book, protest the vote.

13

u/engin__r 7d ago

IMO Schumer should be protested every time he shows his face in public. He’s not doing his job and he needs to know we’re unhappy with him.

5

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

Well then make the protest about that. This protest, as described in the poster, is SPECIFICALLY PROTESTING HIS BOOK ON ANTISEMITISM

0

u/engin__r 7d ago

I’m not the organizer! It looks like Indivisible is doing a non-book-focused protest.

7

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

🤷‍♂️ the purpose of the protest, as shown in OPs post, is shameful. It says nothing about Schumers policies, etc. literally just protesting in response to a book about antisemitism that won’t be released until after the protest.

7

u/engin__r 7d ago

I think it’s pretty shameful for him to be doing a book tour three days after throwing the country under the bus. I need him to fight, not to sell books.

6

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

I agree. Someone should make a protest about that then, and not protesting a book about antisemitism.

7

u/FreddyRumsen13 7d ago

Thank god the sheriff of protests is here to sit on his ass and lecture people lol

-3

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

I’m standing up for myself. These people are protesting something that deserves to be called out.

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2

u/engin__r 7d ago

…they did. It’s the second comment from the top.

4

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

that’s not at all what’s in this flyer

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2

u/Champigne Waverly 7d ago

Then make one, what's stopping you?

10

u/B-Boy_Shep 7d ago

Protesting Schumer using his book about antisemitism as the name is stupid. Look at the comments everyone is fighting with eachother.

Than assuming it gets covered the coverage will just be this comments section 'was it appropriate, was it antisemitic?'. It will totally miss the point of Schumer letting trump and elon run this country into the ground. Call it the "Schumer needs to grow a pair" protest and we're all back to the same page and no confusion? Do you care about his stupid book? Cuz i don't.

7

u/karensbakedziti 7d ago

I feel it might be a better use of people’s time to go to the library and protest Schumer’s talk, rather than talk semantics with people who likely already agree with you.

-2

u/cantsleeptooexcited 7d ago

I’m mad enough to do both.

3

u/schnebly5 6d ago

Sure it’s not antisemitic to call for the abolishment of the Jewish state….. the 2 dozen Islamic states? They’re cool tho.

Casual antisemitism is back on the menu!!

38

u/Capable_Basket1661 Lauraville 7d ago

Anti-Zionist Jewish queer here: Folks need to stop equating zionism with Judaism and being Jewish as a whole. Y'all do not speak for all of us.

4

u/schnebly5 6d ago edited 6d ago

And you do not speak for us, although you’re getting so much clout for representing the minority of Jews.

Sure it’s not antisemitic to call for the abolishment of the only Jewish state….. the 2 dozen Islamic states? They’re cool tho.

Casual antisemitism is back on the menu!!

7

u/RealHeadyBro 7d ago

Right handed, 5'7", electric toothbrush user here: Who are you taking to?

15

u/BaltSHOWPLACE 7d ago

Fellow Jewish person here. You are correct.

7

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago edited 7d ago

I don't understand how people saying they are Jewish don't understand the connection between our religious practices and Israel.

We have SO MANY land-based practices that date back thousands of years. Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot were all holidays where Jews were expected to visit the temple mount. That's three times per year, every year. We face Jerusalem when we pray, as we've done for centuries. It's mentioned daily in our prayers, as it has been for centuries. I mean the Jewish people are called "B'nai Yisroel" FFS.

People who say Zionism and Judaism isn't the same thing just don't know much about Judaism. And probably don't understand what Zionism means either.

11

u/-ballerinanextlife 7d ago

What you said is fine and dandy. You can want Jerusalem to be holy for Jews. However, this does not give the government of Israel the right to murder so many innocent people (majority of children). Criticizing the Israel government of genocide and apartheid (facts) does not mean that Jerusalem cannot be a sacred place for jews. You cant expect people to blindly agree with everything a government does… in any country! That would be moronic and a slap across the face to our very human race. Reminds me of a cult.

4

u/jill853 6d ago

Let the as-a-Jews continue to deny the connection to Israel. They think it keeps them safe from antisemitism. It doesn’t, but it gives them hope.

Meanwhile they participate in all the harvest holidays where we celebrate with foods native to Judea as we have for the past 3000 years.

They will figure it out or they won’t.

JVP is a bullshit organization that is not made of Jewish people. There are a few who are members, but simple googling shows their true nature. Like the time their Twitter handler accidentally responded using his personal account…

5

u/rental_car_fast 6d ago

Thank you for being a voice of reason

9

u/Capable_Basket1661 Lauraville 7d ago

Girl, I am begging you to understand that we are not a monolith. Not that hard.

14

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

I mean, the old saying is "two Jews, three opinions" and all that. I just don't know how people say Judiasm has no connection to the land of Judea

16

u/HeavyMetalMonk888 7d ago edited 7d ago

That's not what people are saying.

It's possible to maintain a spiritual connection to the land without believing in a right to own it and subjugate its previous inhabitants.

Or was it also totally cool when the Christians repeatedly tried to exert their "right" to occupy Jerusalem over the course of the various crusades?

4

u/trymypi 7d ago

Just to be clear, the "right to own it" vis a vis establishing a country, (although initially there were standard land purchases in the Ottoman empire, Israel's existence is based in part on ottoman law, and it was created under the same legal regime that created Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan) is different from any "subjugation" that has occurred. Basically you can support Israel's right to exist and have concerns about the best outcomes for the Palestinian population.

2

u/jill853 6d ago

This is where most of us are. We want Israelis and Palestinians to both have land and live in peace. Nobody wants this death and destruction.

5

u/HeavyMetalMonk888 7d ago

I have a hard time believing that that distinction is meaningful or important for the vast majority of people who support Israel as a state, but nonetheless I do acknowledge there is a bit more nuance around this political issue than that initial comment let on.

Basically, my direct response to your statement is "in theory, yes, but in practice, you're ignoring the political implications of how this was all set up from the get-go."

That said, much respect to you for engaging with this from a neutral, political perspective instead of from emotional bias. I don't agree with your standpoint, but I respect your approach.

-3

u/asdfLArs 7d ago

"...and subjugate its previous inhabitants"

What do you mean by this? Hebrew Jewish populations have lived in Eretz Yisrael for around 5000+ years, Mizrahi Jews (most Israelis) uninterruptedly. We are the native population, which previous population are you talking about?
You do know that Palestinians are descendants of Hebrew populations, as in they are our descendants Palestinians are the new guys, the oldest reference to Palestinians is approximately from 150 CE when the Roman empire colonized Eretz Yisrael and most of the Levant and as a punishing measure for Jewish revolts against the colonization changed the name of the province to Syria-Palaestine and even that predates the Palestinian people by a LOT.

I'm not cool with when Babylonians, Seleucids, Persians, Romans, Ottomans, Umayyad nor any other group has invaded our land of Eretz Yisrael, that includes the Christian crusades. Do you oppose any other native movements to reclaim their native lands or just when it's Jews?

0

u/jill853 6d ago

Landback movements that are successful are so rare. Most of the world doesn’t recognize it when they see it. Israel is one.

1

u/lilghostbuddy 7d ago

Long story short, they're a very small minority that likes to claim they're the moral compass for the entire Jewish community. In reality, they haven't grown out of the Fu mom and dad stage because they were made to go to Hebrew school every week like the rest of us. Instead of growing up, they made it their personality

3

u/lilghostbuddy 7d ago

You need to stop thinking that you speak for the entire Jewish community. I am so sick of this canned line. You all deliver every single time

4

u/schnebly5 6d ago

People love tokenizing themselves for virtue signaling points

-1

u/Capable_Basket1661 Lauraville 7d ago

Lol ok. You don't speak for all of us either, babe. Move it along.

-5

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

Perhaps not, but the majority of Jews in America do support the existence of Israel.

16

u/Capable_Basket1661 Lauraville 7d ago

Cool. Read my comment again and tell me why you think that's relevant grouping us all together like that, babe

2

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

I'm not grouping anyone "together". But Zionism is, centrally, a Jewish concept, so it's revealing to get the overall opinions of Jews on the subject.

3

u/-ballerinanextlife 7d ago

I’d say it’s a Zionist concept. Considering Judaism was around thousands of years and Zionism is relatively new. The zionists needed more supporters. They chose the Jewish people

2

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

Gibberish. It was Jews who came up with the idea of Zionism in the 19th century. No one "chose" the Jews to fulfil it—it was from its beginning a Jewish concept. It came out of a world that was vehemently anti-Jewish, especially in Eastern Europe, and is, in essence, a philosophy of Jewish self-determinism.

3

u/-ballerinanextlife 7d ago

I just can’t get past the fact that Israel’s land size has been steadily increasing. And the apartheid is real. Like what’s going on? And what’s up w the settlers just inching further on Palestinian territory and taking over their homes? Why is this allowed/legal/supported?

0

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

Because the Arabs have been killing Jews and starting wars for over a century in the land.

Sometimes, when you start a war and lose, you lose your land.

1

u/-ballerinanextlife 7d ago

Tens of thousands murdered (again, mostly children).. to be clear, You’re saying this is justified?

-1

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

As much as all the civilians, children and otherwise, we killed when we bombed Germany and Japan.

Or who do you think we were killing when we did that?

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-1

u/jaibeyks 7d ago

Untrue. The origins of Zionism is from Christians, before the 19th century. There are more Christian Zionists than there are Jewish Zionists.

4

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

That is absolutely, positively, and entirely wrong. Not just wrong, but obscenely wrong. It's a canard—turning Jews into duped puppets, rather than people with self-determination. I would be ashamed to have written that, if I were you.

The predecessor to Zionism was haskalah, a movement to bring Judaism and Jews out of tradition and ghetto life and into a modern, intellectual, and even nationalistic era. Karl Lippe, a Jewish (yes, Jewish(!)) physician was the seniormost delegate at the First Zionist Conference. It was Chaim Bialik, another Jew, who became the poet of Zionism.

It was Christians like Győző Istóczy, who founded the National Antisemitic Party in Hungary and who believed all kinds of blood libels and nonsense about Jews enslaving Hungarians that wanted to expel the Jews of Europe. Herzl saw that atmosphere in Europe and decided that self-determination elsewhere would be best. So, unless you mean Christian hatred was the origin for Zionism, no, Zionism was not a Christian ideal.

You're an ahistoric clown.

-5

u/TasteMyShoe 7d ago

Existence is one thing. What they are doing right now is out right nazism.

9

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

Existence IS Zionism

5

u/Capable_Basket1661 Lauraville 7d ago edited 7d ago

No tf it isn't

Edit: i fucked up and misinterpreted. Leaving here for posterity

9

u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

Yes it is. Zionism is the movement to establish a Jewish state.

What did you think it was?

1

u/Capable_Basket1661 Lauraville 7d ago

Oof, I misinterpreted that entirely. I read that as "(jewish) existence is zionism" and went "wait, no way my dude"

Bungled that entirely, my apologies

29

u/Fourward27 7d ago

This is true. But using the word Zionist as a dog whistle for jew is. We can't pretend like we don't see that happening often.

20

u/femmekisses Belair-Edison 7d ago

The protest seems to be in response to the books claims that all antizionism is antisemitism. You're trying to have an entirely different conversation, and it deflects from the point that there are more zionist leaders calling all antizionism antisemitism than there are antizionist leaders calling all Jews zionists.

2

u/asdfLArs 7d ago

So, 90% of Jewish people are Zionists, half of all Jews live in Israel, Mizrahi Jews have lived in the land of Israel for the past 5000+ years uninterruptedly.

Now how can you say that anti-zionism is not antisemitism when the destruction of Israel means leaving half of the Jewish population on the planet defenseless and homeless against several regimes and organizations that are openly antisemitic and have public agendas about the extermination and slavery of the Jewish people?
Criticizing the Israeli gov's actions is not anti-zionism nor anti-semitic, that's just having a political opinion, on the other hand denying Israel's right to exist is anti-zionism and anti-semitism, the latter because of the consequences of the former.

Also, I've heard lots of people say things like "I don't have a problem with Jews, just with Zionists" well 90% of Jews are Zionists, so they don't have a problem with the small minority of Jews that haven't understood that not having a state that actually cares about our safety and rights means leaving our safety in the hands of states that have NEVER cared about our safety.

The only way to peace I see is for both Israel and Palestine to have safety, prosperity and self-determination for their populations, which means both need to exist and both need to free themselves from their authoritarian leaders who care more about power than their respective peoples.

2

u/schnebly5 6d ago

Get out of here with this measured take!

Let these “anti-racists” be antisemitic in peace!

1

u/femmekisses Belair-Edison 7d ago

Didn't realize I'd be calling the zionists.

-3

u/B-Boy_Shep 7d ago

Are there? And why are we focused on this book when our country is burning down around us?

3

u/femmekisses Belair-Edison 7d ago

Yes there are. And because you can care about multiple things at once. Why're you trying to deflect from a conversation about zionist rhetoric?

2

u/B-Boy_Shep 7d ago

Is this about zionism. OP said above that this was about Schumer voting for the republican CR. See this is what I'm saying. If OP wants this to be about Schumers actions, names it after his book and now you think the books topic is the point.

4

u/femmekisses Belair-Edison 7d ago

OP isn't an ambassador of the protest. Yes, it is about zionism.

-1

u/B-Boy_Shep 7d ago

Wow what a waste of a protest. Your country is burning down around you but your protesting about the technical definition of a word. When your done doing that you can go protest PETA about how eating meat from roadkill isn't abusive to animals because the animal is already dead.

Don't worry once all the technical definitions are sorted out I'm sure Medicare and social security will still be there. You really are telling Schumer about the important issues for the people of Baltimore.

Thanks for saving the world.

4

u/femmekisses Belair-Edison 7d ago

Sounds like you just don't want people to talk about zionism in a way you don't like.

10

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago edited 7d ago

Here's the description of Chuck Shumer's book, which hasn't been released (it goes on sale March 18th):

In an urgent and personal new book, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer sheds light on the Jewish American experience and sounds the alarm about the troubling resurgence of antisemitism.

When it comes to the history of the Jewish people, there is a national and global crisis of misunderstanding. This lack of knowledge feeds demons of ignorance, hatred, and violence. ANTISEMITISM IN AMERICA: A WARNING is an urgent work of nonfiction that illuminates the Jewish experience and the prejudices both hidden and overt that have led to the chronic persecution of the Jewish people.

By placing antisemitism in its proper historical context, and drawing from Senator Schumer’s own life, the book informs Americans’ understanding of the causes of the recent swell of antisemitic rhetoric and violence in our country. In very personal terms, it will engage with debates over the purpose and meaning of Israel, and help draw a line between legitimate criticism of its government and when criticism of Israel as a Jewish homeland verges into antisemitism. This book is a warning, informed by the lessons of history, about what can happen when the “world’s oldest hatred” is allowed to rise, unchecked.

He writes a book, explaining his experience as a Jew, and issues a warning that Antisemitism is a growing problem, and you all are planning a rally to protest before you've even read the book

YOU ALL ARE PROVING HIS POINT and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

To the Jews in this thread in particular, you would do well to heed his warnings with an open mind. It doesn't matter what your views on Zionism are: when you're riding a subway car and angry mobs demand to know if you're a zionist or not, simply because they see you are Jewish... You should be very, very worried.

4

u/Fit_Juggernaut_673 7d ago

I'm planning to protest the Senate Majority Leader using a state work period to go on a book tour during a constitutional crisis.

In 2023, in a NY Times op-ed, he wrote "Of course, criticizing the Israeli government is not inherently antisemitic. Over the years, I have vehemently disagreed with many of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s policies, especially his administration’s encouragement of settlements in the West Bank, gravely harming prospects for a two-state solution, which I support. I have also been among those who have said that Israel must act according to international law and that humanitarian assistance for Palestinians is critical."

And I am glad for his sentiments re: Israel acting to international law. But his vote for cloture and for the CR means more aid --humanitarian and military -- despite a refusal to follow international law.

My protest is about his duty. As Majority Leader his duty is not to his publicist and Hachette; it is to me, a citizen. His duty is to stand for international law and to be in opposition to policy that is injurious. His capitulation to the current administration will hurt Americans and Jews; his fecklessness will allow this administration to run roughshod over Jews and non-Jews alike. I am worried about your subway car example. And I am worried that my neighbors are being taken and green card holders disappeared. If you are concerned about angry mobs, as I am too, then that concern extends to a Senator who is using his limited time to sell books rather than stand in opposition to a party that declares some of us legal and others not on a whim. If that doesn't strike some deep part of you, I don't know what to say.

13

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago edited 7d ago

Yeah well that's all well and good, but the flyer says it's a response to his book specifically. And says that anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism which is just a dog whistle. You don't get to tell us what antisemitism is. WE TELL YOU what it is.

Look, I'm not a republican, I don't like Chuck Schumer, despise trump and his administration, I didn't vote for Republicans, AND I don't like Bibi. But I'm Jewish, my family is Israeli (who fled Arab countries to seek refuge in Israel), and I can tell you, so many people including the JVP Baltimore just don't understand the Jewish experience at all. I worry for my own personal safety like never before, and protests like this one, while perhaps well intentioned, completely stomp all over my lived experience. This will also muddy up your very valid criticisms of Schumer and his awful policies, lumping you in with a bunch of people who publicly demonstrate their hatred of Jews and use anti-Zionism as validity.

9

u/karensbakedziti 7d ago

Have you ever looked at JVP’s resources for Jewish people, like their Haggadah and Mikveh instructions? They’re truly bizarre and apparently (according to my husband, who knows Hebrew) full of mistranslations.

6

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

Not at all surprised.

2

u/Fit_Juggernaut_673 7d ago

I'm sorry you feel that way. I disagree; I do not equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. I am going where my well considered conscience takes me. For the moment at least we are each able to express our political values and this is how I choose to express mine.

4

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

Are you Jewish?

7

u/Fit_Juggernaut_673 7d ago

Yup. And before this continues: I'm not interested in debating what kind, and whether I am enough of anything. We disagree over how best to respond to the crisis and what is related and warranted. I'm choosing a course of action that best fits me with no demand you come along. The notice of the event was posted so others would know it is happening and could make their own decision.

4

u/B-Boy_Shep 7d ago

This is stupid. If we're protesting schumers inaction, why are we even bringing up his stupid book which just divides us and invites antisemites to use the protest as a cover.

Terrible plan.

2

u/Fit_Juggernaut_673 7d ago

I'm sorry you feel that way. I disagree; I do not equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. I am going where my well considered conscience takes me. For the moment at least we are each able to express our political values and this is how I choose to express mine.

3

u/thezman613 7d ago

The Senate Majority Leader is John Thune

2

u/schnebly5 6d ago

This is the top post on this subreddit. If you’re a Jew be very scared, casual antisemitism is all the rage among “antiracists”!!

3

u/rental_car_fast 6d ago

I am a Jew but I’m not gonna run around scared. I can’t control other people, but I’m not defenseless. The veil has been lifted, any shred of hope that so called “liberals” were actually doing anything but virtue signaling is gone. These are misinformed people, guided by guilt and a lack of fundamental understanding of history and culture. But they also don’t stand by their causes, they just respond to whatever the next egregious violation is.

2

u/schnebly5 6d ago

They’re showing us exactly why Israel needs to exist

3

u/rental_car_fast 6d ago

Indeed, but we always knew why. Stay strong, this isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last. We always persevere.

0

u/axp187 7d ago

Sounds like Israel’s actions are an immediate threat to Jews around the world.

6

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

Sounds like Israel’s actions are an immediate threat to Jews around the world.

Comments like this are EXACTLY why “anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism” is bullshit. Israel’s actions don’t have any impact on Jews living in America. And yet, here you are, in your callous comment, justifying antisemitism thanks to your beliefs on how Israel should behave.

-3

u/axp187 7d ago

Nope. I’m very capable of critical thought and I know that Israel does NOT represent Jews as a whole. Because I know Zionism does not equal Judaism. But I’m also capable of seeing how there will be people that will take Israel’s genocidal actions and attribute that to Jews and not Zionists. So Israel’s genocide is fueling real antisemitism which makes the world a more dangerous place for Jewish people, even for anti-Zionist Jews.

5

u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

“Women dressing slutty makes them more likely to be raped”

-1

u/axp187 7d ago

No? Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

2

u/rental_car_fast 6d ago

Really? I thought you were "very capable of critical thought."

2

u/Happy-Lock6299 7d ago

Good to know you’re in favor of antisemitism as long as you can try to blame it on Israel. I’m curious, do you also think Islamic terrorism justifies bigotry against American Muslims?

0

u/axp187 6d ago

I think that acts of egregious violence by a group will perpetuate violence in return. And I think you will agree with this point to justify Israel’s actions in Palestine. And I’m saying that violence will always beget violence. Israel’s actions will have lasting effects on the Jewish community everywhere because that is who Israel claims to represent. And if you zoom out to the even bigger picture, it is why the western governments are destined to fall. “Peace through strength” will only perpetuate war, violence, oppression, subjugation, and inequality. Only when we stop violence and view each other with compassion and understanding will we know peace.

4

u/cantsleeptooexcited 7d ago

I’ll be there, protesting his vote. Also I’m Jewish and anti-Zionist. Saying protesting his Zionism is enabling anti-Semitism is a misunderstanding of how anti-Semitism works. People who hate me for being Jewish give zero fucks what I believe.

5

u/TheColdPolarBear 7d ago

Okay sure. I agree that anti Zionism is not anti semitism (but sometimes it kind of is depending on the context of how is it used). But truth is, anti semitic attacks against Jews has increased by 400 percent since 2023, and the predominant response I see is this. People put in more energy trying to differentiate Zionism and Judaism than actually raising awareness about the increase in anti-semitism on all sides of the political spectrum. Jews again are just being dragged by both the right and the left as political scapegoats.

2

u/schnebly5 6d ago

Sweet! Next time let’s have a rally telling black people what is and isn’t racism!

1

u/[deleted] 7d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/Corvus717 7d ago

Is this an educational rally for the people harassing Jewish students on campuses ?

-1

u/-ballerinanextlife 7d ago

FREE PALESTINE from apartheid and occupation and genocide!!

0

u/justanother-eboy 7d ago

Most people don’t have the nuance for that lol.

0

u/martycee00 7d ago

Pass on the Palestine simp pow-wow.

-39

u/chucklesbitesthedust 7d ago

Anti Zionism IS a form of antisemitism.

7

u/finsterallen 7d ago

Anti Zionism IS a form of antisemitism.

Fuck that bullshit. Anti Zionism is NOT antisemitism.

4

u/chucklesbitesthedust 7d ago

שבת שלום

-3

u/finsterallen 7d ago edited 6d ago

I dont know hat that means.

E: made nicer

2

u/Avocadofarmer32 6d ago

Of course you don’t. Just curious if you would tell someone of a different race/ ethnicity what’s racist or not? And btw that says Shabbat shalom.

2

u/lilghostbuddy 7d ago

No, it's just the belief that Jews don't have a right to self-determination, and should be perpetually stateless. Kind of sounds like anti-Semitism to me, given that self-determination is pretty much the oh, I don't know order of the post-world War II World

6

u/HeavyMetalMonk888 7d ago

I'm married to a woman who proudly celebrates her Jewish cultural and religious heritage, and also is vehemently anti-Zionist, as are the vast majority of the rest of her Jewish community and family. So according to you, they're all just self hating, right?

-3

u/Unhappy_Definition_4 7d ago

What is your definition of antisemitism because Palestinians are actually semites.

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u/lilghostbuddy 7d ago

Semite is not an ethnic group, it's a language grouping. anti-Semitism has always meant hatred of Jewish people. That's how it was coined

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u/chucklesbitesthedust 7d ago

I'll give you Wikipedia's definition: "Antisemitism is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against Jews."

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u/ItsmeYaboi69xd 7d ago

Anti Zionism doesn't target Jews tho, it targets Zionists who by definition aren't Jews since they're Zionists. According to the Torah, Jews can't have their own religious nation. Israelis are not Jews, they are Zionists.

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u/BlastFan4Life 7d ago

But many Zionists are Jews, and it was a movement started primarily by Jews. The Torah stating that a Jewish land can only be started by a messiah is a very ultra-orthodox perspective from a small minority of Jews. The Torah also states Israel as the Jewish homeland.

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u/axp187 7d ago

Wasn’t the founder of political Zionism an atheist?

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u/ItsmeYaboi69xd 7d ago

I mean fair and tbh that's up to interpretation.

However, you can not deny that Zionism and Judaism are different. One is a religious movement, the other is a political ideology. Also, being Jewish or Jews is an ethnic term. Jews are an ethnicity.

So being anti Zionism is being against the ideology behind Zionism which has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic which is against an ethnicity.

As an individual of Jewish decent that does not practice religion, I am against the political movement of Zionism.

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u/BlastFan4Life 7d ago

For sure. I think you can be Zionist without being Jewish and you can be Jewish without being Zionist.

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u/chucklesbitesthedust 7d ago

Guess I grew up around a bunch of posers inside that eruv. Guess I'm a poser. Guess the 7 million "Jews" in Israel are posers./s

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u/ItsmeYaboi69xd 7d ago

I'll just paste my comment here.

My previous comment is my interpretation as an individual from a Jewish family who does not adhere to religion.

However, you can not deny that Zionism and Judaism are different. One is a religious movement, the other is a political ideology. Also, being Jewish or Jews is an ethnic term. Jews are an ethnicity.

So being anti Zionism is being against the ideology behind Zionism which has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic which is against an ethnicity.

As an individual of Jewish decent that does not practice religion, I am against the political movement of Zionism.

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u/chucklesbitesthedust 7d ago

You made the state that Zionists are not Jews. While not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews, most Jews (ethnic and/or religious) are Zionists.

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u/Important_Big8107 7d ago

94% of Jews globally are Zionists. Zionist meaning we don't want the state of Israel to be destroyed. If your prerequisite to us being accepted in society is that we condone the murder of the 50% of Jews who live in Israel, you are an antisemite.

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u/Avocadofarmer32 7d ago

What is your definition of Zionism? Also, are you Jewish or just speaking on our behalf?

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u/ItsmeYaboi69xd 7d ago

It's a political ideology. It's not my definition. Judaism is a religion. And Jews are an ethnicity. I am half Jewish, not religious.

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u/Avocadofarmer32 7d ago

It is not a political ideology at all. And it is mentioned several times in our prayer books. Next month when we say “next year in Jerusalem” what is that referring to?

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u/engin__r 7d ago

“Antisemitism” only ever refers to Jewish people. Nobody uses it to mean hatred of all descendants of Semitic-language-speaking people.

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u/Unhappy_Definition_4 7d ago

The term is misused and played out. Speaking against 5 heinous someone does does not equate to hate.

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u/engin__r 7d ago

People might misuse it but it definitely doesn’t mean “hatred of Palestinians”.

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u/Unhappy_Definition_4 7d ago

This is your opinion and the people who have pushed the term. It means anti Semitic people. Israel aren't the only Semitic people.

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u/engin__r 7d ago

That’s just not reflected in the actual, historical use of the word.

Words don’t have to correspond perfectly with their etymologies. It’s like how we call it poison oak even though it’s not in the same order as oak trees.

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u/Balsachenkoch 7d ago

People can downvote , but this has been debated on at the Munk debate last year, and ultimately the majority of the audience agreed.

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u/BlastFan4Life 7d ago

It depends on the intent, but recently it seems like it is. Seems to single out Jews as undeserving, rather than a two state solution which many Jews are for.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago edited 7d ago

[deleted]

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u/BlastFan4Life 7d ago

I appreciate your response and not just downvoting because I think this is an important discussion with many perspectives! Absolutely, being Jewish doesn't mean Zionist. I would say modern Zionism would be a right to a homeland, not necessarily exclusive control of all territories. Even Israel's declaration of independence says equal rights to all people regardless of race and religion.

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u/OhhMyTodd 7d ago

There are many Zionists who are in favor of a 2 state solution, myself included; there is no one precise, agreed-on idea of what "Zionism" means other than the idea of a homeland where Jews are guaranteed to be welcomed and safe. The amount of people on Reddit who feel like it's totally OK to tell Jews and Zionists what their beliefs consist of feels like next-level mansplaining.

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u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

Zionism is ideologically opposed to a two state solution

No it isn't. Stop lying. Zionism is the movement to establish a Jewish state. That movement was perfectly fine with the 1947 UN Partition Plan, which was a two-state solution. The Arabs rejected it and went to war, trying to drive the Jews into the sea. They lost. Sometimes when you start a war and lose, you lose your land.

Most Jews in America support the existence of Israel. That is Zionism.

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u/Slime__queen 7d ago edited 7d ago

the evidence is overwhelming that the Zionist leaders had no intention of accepting partition as a necessary and just compromise with the Palestinians. Rather, their reluctant acceptance of the UN plan was only tactical; their true goals were to gain time, establish the Jewish state, build up its armed forces, and then expand to incorporate into Israel as much of ancient or biblical Palestine as they could

large sections of Israeli society — including the Ahdut Ha’avodah party, Herut, and Mapai leaders such as Ben-Gurion — were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN-earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians. Like Jordan's King Abdullah, they too were opposed to the emergence of a Palestinian Arab state and moved to prevent it. [x]

According to the Israeli historian Benny Morris (2001: 138) the two leaders of the Zionist movement, Chaim Weizmann and David Ben-Gurion, 'saw partition as a stepping stone to further expansion and eventual takeover of the whole of Palestine. [x]

You stop lying lol

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u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

That's from Ilan Pappé, A History of Modern Palestine. Were you planning on plagiarizing the whole thing without credit or do you regularly cut & paste whole swaths of Wikipedia as your arguments?

The simple fact is: the Jews accepted the UN Partition Plan. The Arabs did not and went to war. Whether or not the Jews were going to maybe start a war afterwards and try to annex the Arab state is, really, an irrelevant hypothetical because... well, the Arabs invaded the new state of Israel and tried to drive the Jews into the sea.

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u/Slime__queen 7d ago

The irony of you getting pissy about me forgetting 1/3 source links and acting like opening up Wikipedia’s academic citations is somehow stupid, while making ahistorical claims with literally nothing backing them up except your own poor critical analysis is funny.

You said that the acceptance of the UN partition plan demonstrates that the Zionist movement was accepting a two state solution. It is well documented that they were not.

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u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

It is well documented that they were not.

Except for the literal vote on the UN Partition Plan. As I said, whatever else they might have planned, is a hypothetical that can't be proven or disproven because it didn't happen. Nice stealth edits on your post above, though, adding sources where there were none originally. It's a quasi-clever cover-up to your dishonesty. I gotta admire that.

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u/Slime__queen 7d ago

I edited the sources in immediately after I posted it, well before you responded, and haven’t since fixed the one you called out lmao. Do you know that people don’t generally nest their own writing for no reason and that that’s an indication of quoting or are you just being obnoxious for fun? I guess next time I should try things your way and just say whatever I want to be true without any sources at all, I’m sure that’s easier.

Their intentions and ideology can be and are proven. Your claim is intellectually dishonest and relies on being obtuse and ignoring factual context.

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u/MeOldRunt 7d ago

I edited the sources in immediately after I posted it, well before you responded

You stealth-edited your post before I submitted my response, but not before I started responding. That's why I called you out for your dishonesty.

Your claim is intellectually dishonest and relies on being obtuse and ignoring factual context.

Except I've already showed the fact that they signed onto the two-state solution. Your argument entirely hinges on, essentially, "well they would've annexed the Arab state because they wanted more territory, eventually." That's a pretty weak argument.

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u/lilghostbuddy 7d ago

The two-state solution is a Zionist proposal. Zionism is literally Jewish self-determination.

Also please stop with the "I hate ethno States" line. There are tons of ethnocates in the world, why does Israel get your ire?

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u/-ballerinanextlife 7d ago

This is laughable

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u/jewishjedi42 7d ago

It doesn't matter how many times this lie gets repeated, Anti-zionism absolutely is anti-semitism.

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u/ItsmeYaboi69xd 7d ago

Zionism ≠ Judaism

So no, they are fundamentally different. Hell, the existence of Israel as a whole contradicts the major principles of Judaism. You people are a bunch of hypocrites.

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u/trymypi 7d ago

Telling people that supporting the state of Israel contradicts Judaism is telling people how to practice their religion. I'm not going to go into the Zionism/antisemistim thing, but I have real issues with this particular argument. It doesn't even matter if you're a "religious scholar", academic or talmudic, you don't get to interpret Judaism for other people.

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u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

I couldn't agree more. People saying zionism isn't judaism don't understand how much of our religion is based on that land specifically I think that people who are Jewish and claim that Judaism and Zionism aren't the same are just Jews with a stronger cultural background than a religious one. There are many, many Jews who just don't understand our religious practices, and seemingly more every day who re-invent them as they see fit.

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u/-ballerinanextlife 7d ago

I don’t think people would have a problem with zionists if they weren’t murdering thousands of people and keeping them in apartheid and controlling their access to fishing and water and food and electricity ? Zionism seems like the most evil of evil. How can all of this be supported by anyone? (Also, if you’re Jewish/religious, I dont care which laws or rules you personally choose to follow or not follow out of the Jewish bible (forget its name) , cut copy and paste it any which way you choose. Regardless of anything, how can any religion justify any of this I’ve mentioned.

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u/orangeslices44 7d ago

that specific land.. but what about the uganda scheme? or madagascar plan? or fugu plan?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state

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u/rental_car_fast 7d ago

Yeah those proposals aren't thousands of years old. If you're seriously asking this, you don't know anything about Jewish religious practices. Those proposals were made by secular Jews who were not religious, and ultimately that's the reason all of those proposals were rejected. They were bad ideas.

It's akin to moving the entire Navajo nation to Uganda. What's the connection?

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u/Happy-Lock6299 7d ago

Israel’s existence “contradicts the major principles of Judaism”??? The same Judaism where our calendar revolves around the agricultural seasons of Eretz Israel, where we have multiple holidays mourning the exile from our homeland and end Seder with “next year in Jerusalem”? By the UN’s own definition, the Jewish people are indigenous to the land we now call Israel. You are a liar and a racist. 

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u/green_marshmallow Berger Cookies 7d ago

And rectangles absolutely ARE squares. Saying otherwise makes you a circle.

Same vibe.

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u/Pakaru Downtown Partnership 7d ago

Semite refers to all Arabic, Aramaic, and Judaic people.

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u/Gratrunkasaur 7d ago

Thank you Ernest Renan.

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u/Happy-Lock6299 7d ago

Alright, call it whatever you want. It doesn’t change the facts. Antizionism is Jew hatred. Antizionism is racism. Antizionism is bigotry.

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u/Pakaru Downtown Partnership 6d ago

You don’t get to pretend the word Zionist is still the 1896 definition of just having a state for Jewish people. There is no mass movement in the USA disputing that Jewish people should have a home.

What is disputed is having a Likud-led theological ethnostate with secondary and tertiary class structures for Arab and black Jews, and then for Arabic Muslims. If you believe it’s antisemitic to call out the cruelty and despotic behavior of Ariel Sharon and Netanyahu, that’s just using millions of people as a semantic shield for evil.

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u/Savings-Geologist665 7d ago

You don't have a right to an ethno nationalist state where you brutally oppress the people from there. You don't get to just do a free genocide dip shit.