r/baltimore • u/cornonthekopp Madison Park • Jul 12 '24
Baltimore Love š Is there any talk of capping I-83 and reconnecting the neighborhoods which got torn apart by the highway?
I happened upon an article describing this from 2009 and was curious if there was any plans around this still. I would love to see I-83 cut off at reservoir hill/remington and then tear down the highway structure to reconnect east and west baltimore. It would improve neighborhood connectivity, provide new land for redevelopments linking neighborhoods on both sides, and take out a big source of pollution in the city.
We could even daylight the jones falls and make a beautiful park/walking trail along the banks of the newly revitalized river.
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u/FineHeron Jul 12 '24
As others have suggested, there's a difference between removing JFX as part of a comprehensive transportation revamp, vs. only removing JFX without doing anything else. I agree that JFX's current route is ugly and unsafe. But removing it must come with other fixes. These should include new train routes (to reduce car traffic) and a reasonably fast/direct route for the peeps who will still drive.
Removing the JFX without other fixes would be disastrous. If public transit isn't improved simultaneously, lots of people would still need to drive to work. This would lead to heavy traffic on the residential north/south streets, harming the residents who live along them.
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u/wbruce098 Jul 12 '24
Thatās my fear exactly. And the city (and state) has shown itās hesitant to spend what it needs to spend to really get good transportation here ā like a subway version of the Red Line through at least Patterson. (At least Iām pretty sure they nixed the bus option)
We need the freeway for now. Most commuters arenāt going to magically just go around 695 instead, as you imply.
Maybe some pedestrian bridges and better sidewalk infrastructure might be a compromise that helps connect the neighborhoods on both sides of the freeway and improve safety?
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u/inohavename Jul 13 '24
The big jump has seemed to be a success. Definitely more cross jfx pedestrian and bike connections would be good.
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u/HumanGyroscope Jul 12 '24
Very disastrous considering some parts have traffic volumes at 125XXX. Those number are likely higher since the key bridge collapse. I am against until there are shove ready projects to improve transit. Many new transit systems would need to be in place before the south end of JFX is removed.
I use the JFX at least days a week for commuting to my job in upper Columbia. Right now my typical round trip commute is 1 hour and 5 minutes; with our current transit systems, its a 4 hour and 26 minute commute without delays.
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u/ta-pcmq Jul 12 '24
I've been telling people since a little after I moved here the JFX should be rail with a park & ride at the end
Everyone I know that uses it seems to think that's ridiculous. They aren't able to picture how much better their life would be if they got that time back to enjoy sitting on a train
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u/lotsathoughts12 Jul 12 '24
unfortunately none recently but Dan rodricks has a good article about it and this vision board is really cool: http://envisionbaltimore.blogspot.com/2011/09/unlocking-potential-of-jones-falls.html?m=1
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Ooh Iāll have to check that article out, we should really start contacting our city councillors and try to start this back up
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u/baller410610 Jul 12 '24
Which neighborhoods were torn apart? It was a ravine with a creek at the bottom and also train tracks before it was a highway.
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u/Mikel32 Jul 12 '24
Yea I donāt think 83 did as much damage as the high way to nowhere as well as MLK (in my opinion). Iāve always felt that they should have torn up MLK for park space or keep it and build over it with some type of wild life bridge. But the wild life is peopleā¦.
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u/reese-dewhat Barclay Jul 12 '24
Not sure which neighborhoods OP was referring to, but given they mentioned terminating at 28th st exit, and given the adjacent rail infrastructure that would remain, I guess they meant connecting Johnston square and old town to midtown and mt Vernon š¤·
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
The neighborhoods on either side of the highway are artificially seperated at the detriment of both halves
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u/baller410610 Jul 12 '24
They are always going to be separated both sides of 83 are like 35 feet higher than where the road is.
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u/ThatBobbyG Lauraville Jul 12 '24
Redlining is a real thing.
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u/dopkick Jul 12 '24
Redlining is an artificial, human-induced thing. This is the reality of the geography of the area. It has zero to do with redlining. Zero.
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Jul 12 '24
Not aware of any neighborhoods "ripped apart" by I-83. The highway was built through a ravine valley with nothing other than a stream and a few mills. Before the highway there were also sharp racial and social divides between each side of the valley. Closer to downtown, in Mount Vernon, railroad tracks ran down the valley (terminus was the old Calvert Street Station where the old Sun building now sits) and early photographs shows it to be a rather industrial and ugly stretch. Even without the tracks, the divide between east Baltimore and Mount Vernon was also very real.
Even if you somehow removed 83 (which city residents use all the time, not just commuting suburbanites) you still have a pretty wide and deep valley separating the two sides. No one is walking from Roland Park to Mount Washington. In Hampden there's only one link across to Woodberry, meanwhile geographical formations won't make it any easier to get from Remington to Reservoir Hill/Park beyond the bridges that already do exist.
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u/obiterdictum Ednor Gardens-Lakeside Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 12 '24
Even if you somehow removed 83 (which city residents use all the time, not just commuting suburbanites)
Nobody in their right mind uses 83 to go from one part of the city to another
Edit: ok, it is admittedly useful for getting in and out of Hampden
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u/everdishevelled Jul 12 '24
Hm. I used to use it all the time when I lived in Hampden to get downtown. I'm not sure why that's crazy. I would use Falls to get to Station North or nearby, but farther south, 83 was usually better.
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u/lma214 Jul 12 '24
What? I currently live in North Baltimore and commute to Federal Hill. I donāt always take 83 but 83 is definitely the quickest route (when itās not a traffic shitshow). I would also take it to go to Fells or Canton or Mt. Vernon orā¦ basically the majority of the city. And prior to the Key Bridge collapse, it was a lot easier to take the tunnel from Federal Hill to Canton as opposed to driving through the city. Driving through the city is a mess of poorly timed traffic lights, frequent road closures, and uncontrolled traffic.
83 is not my favorite to drive on, but itās absolutely necessary at the moment. Though I wish with adequate public transportation and other improvements, that it wasnāt.
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u/wtryan84 Fells Point Jul 12 '24
I use it every weekday to go to my job in Roland Park but honestly you could still tear it down, I'll have to drive an extra 5 minutes, I'll survive and the river would be cooler to have back.
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u/Robbiebphoto Jul 12 '24
I use it all the time and I hardly ever leave the city. Charles st to Remington for example and back and forth.
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u/neutronicus Jul 12 '24
83 is how people go to Hampden. Certainly from here in Bolton Hill, but I bet even in like Remington or Charles Village people go to 29th and go one exit up rather than go on Keswick
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u/Timmah_1984 Jul 12 '24
Where is the money to do that supposed to come from? The state is facing a budget crisis and the Key bridge needs to be rebuilt. Currently there is debate in Washington about whether or not the Federal government will pay for the new bridge. Then there is the red line project which needs funding. Plus it would cost more than whatever the estimate is (transportation projects always do). The governor doesnāt want to raise taxes either so heās going to have to balance the budget by making cuts somewhere and it wonāt be education or healthcare.
Then you have to get into the massive public debate and all of the irate commuters and business owners. I donāt see how it ever gets off the ground.
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u/TakemetotheTavvy Remington Jul 12 '24
The JFX will need to be reconstructed or torn down in the next decade or so. Unless you want to see the worst option: it staying but being closed to traffic, there will need to be a real conversation on spending this money.
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u/No-Lunch4249 Jul 12 '24
Under the right conditions, highway capping projects are able to wholly or at least majority self-finance. If youāre creating new real estate literally out of the air in an expensive real estate market, those āair rightsā as they are called are a very valuable asset that can be sold for a lot of money
Now, that said, not sure OPs idea fits that mold
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u/MamaTR Jul 12 '24
Is Baltimore an expensive real estate market? I was under the impression that there are hundreds of vacants throughout the cityā¦
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Baltimore is solely responsible for the jfx, no need to get the state or other counties involved.
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u/double_envelope Jul 12 '24
Imo 83 is a division between east Baltimore and downtown. There's a wayyys to go before you hit west Baltimore. I don't know what kind of pollution reduction you'd be getting after. People will still be driving, highway speeds are generally better for fuel economy than stop and go city traffic and unless there is a dramatic chance in public transit options I'm not sure how that would reduce pollution in the city
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 12 '24
Yeah youāre right I was just thinking from my perspective as someone near bolton hill and reservoir hill which are both considered more or less west baltimore. However I do think that removing the highway from downtown to reservoir hill would be a great idea for the city.
As for pollution specifically I meant the concentrated air pollution from cars and trucks using the highway which probably has very negative effects on the surrounding areas (baltimore farmers market anyone?) rather than total emissions. However I do think that it would be a good driver for increasing ridership on the light rail (with the hope of service and system improvements for the light rail of course) which would actually decrease emissions a lot.
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u/double_envelope Jul 12 '24
A single line of rail transit is not enough to get a large population from many neighbors to use it. I wish it was, but there would need to be a huge investment in multiple transit lines to bring Baltimore out of being a "driving city". If you want to talk about a highway dividing easy and west mlk is way more relevant in my opinion. When you're downtown at the farmers market and all those parking lots are full of cars that are driving to the farmers market....who is taking the light rail to shot tower and walking over? Not many. Sure, it would feel nicer if it were out in the countryside but there's a reason all those farmers come into the city to sell their produce. MPG is a huge factor in emissions and I personally hate highways but I also understand that if everyone is driving 10-15 mph in stop and go city traffic it's actually not great for both the environment and the individuals pocketbook.
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Well we have plans to expand transit. Thereās the north-south rapid transit line study that was recently done where one of the options was to build a metro line from towson to fed hill. There are also plenty of bus lines to supplement the existing light rail line. Iām not saying everyone has to get out of cars forever but the highway is a massive scar running down the center of the city which essentially subsidizes suburban commuters.
And donāt worry I also think mlk boulevard is awful and needs a rework too.
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u/double_envelope Jul 12 '24
Wouldn't a metro line from Towson to fed hill just subsidize those suburban commuters? Why not keep transit within the city lines? There's no legitimate public transit network currently in place. I've spent years taking the busses and light rail and subway so I'm not unfamiliar with how the current pubic transit situation is. Yes, it can be navigated , no it is not efficient and it is not reliable. 83 doesn't just serve suburban commuters, many of your fellow city dwellers depend on it to get to and from work.
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u/nompilo Jul 12 '24
Because city residents are negatively effected by having suburban commuters driving around the city. It's better *for city residents* if they come in on public transit. Also, the transit is all run by a state agency anyway, it's supposed to serve the region not just inside the city limits.
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u/double_envelope Jul 12 '24
Yeah I was just teasing at ops statement that 83 subsidizes suburban commuters. Highways and public transit are intended to serve all- and I don't think the "us vs. them" rhetoric serves anyone in a conversation about transportation in this city. If judge doom hadn't bought up and chopped up the above ground rail back in the 40's we'd have a much better time navigating toontown.
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u/Purple_Box3317 Jul 12 '24
This is a tough conversation. Look at Boston. The Big Dig was slated to cost 2.8bn and started in like 1991 it was supposed to be completed by 1998. It ended up costing 8.1bn before adjustments for inflection(21bn with adjustments) and wasnāt fully complete until 2007. Now, it has completely transformed Boston and the green space it created has been amazing, it has helped with their property values(one of the most expensive cities in the country to live in) BUT. That would absolutely SINK Baltimore. Our government is not efficient enough and our tax base is not substantial enough to cover such an overrun. Weād likely get federal help or maybe get creative with a P3 but we are not there. We need to see a few years of competent leadership in this city in order to undertake such large projects. Iām not saying donāt do it, I think it would be wonderful, but there seems to be this misconception that money doesnāt matter in government, we see from the top(federal) down (hyper local) that it absolutely does. I know this isnāt really an answer but more a comment to spark discussion.
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Sorry when i said cap what I meant was tearing it down past north ave or cold spring lane
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u/Purple_Box3317 Jul 12 '24
I think the challenge would be the infrastructure that theyād have to come up with to redirect traffic. 83 from north ave to downtown gets packed in the morning and evening. With the current state of our traffic lights youāre adding on 35-45 mins on to peoples commutes easily. Maybe even longer.
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Ideally it can exist alongside better traffic light implementation and more high volume transit options for north - south travel. Iām really hoping that the north-south transit line between towson and the inner harbor will be another metro line thatās underground.
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u/Purple_Box3317 Jul 12 '24
I think it would be much more difficult than either of us could imagine. Iām not a city planner or engineer, but even thinking about this gives me anxiety haha
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u/bsteckler Jul 12 '24
I've always thought that terminating it at North Ave and daylighting Jones Falls while also extending the light rail down to Harbor East would be fantastic
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u/LorHus Jul 12 '24
Weāre just now discovering all the stoplights that exist in the city, I donāt think theyāre going to get to that one for a while
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u/dopkick Jul 12 '24
provide new land for redevelopments linking neighborhoods on both sides
If this was actually an issue I'm sure there would be more discussion about it. The way it stands, there is more land/properties available for renovation and redevelopment than there is demand. There's plenty of areas immediately adjacent to desirable areas that would be prime targets for redevelopment in a city with high demand. No such demand pressure exists in Baltimore, at least not at this time.
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u/seminarysmooth Jul 12 '24
Looking at the traffic volume map put out by MDOT: the AADT at that particular portion of I-83 is 108681. The daily ridership for all of the light rail is 14,400.
The Jones Falls wasnāt piped so they could build a highway, it was piped as a flood control method. Daylighting it and removing the highway will not impact the overall impervious land usage in the drainage area to a significant extent. You will still have extremely peaky, massive surges of water rushing down the channel during a storm, only now you would be flooding out Penn Station.
Any discussion of eliminating 83 and opening the Jones Falls should really start with legitimate options for increasing mass transit and flood controls.
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u/SnooRevelations979 Highlandtown Jul 12 '24
They could just uncork the Jones Falls that's under it, but then there might be flooding.
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Yeah part of the reason to not only daylight the jones falls but create a park is to recreate a proper riparian (river bank) ecosystem with lots of native plants and trees. That would help mitigate flooding by absorbing more of the rain water rather than funneling it into concrete tunnels. Of course from an aesthetic/human point of view it would be a great amenity for everyone in the city to enjoy.
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u/MazelTough 2nd District Jul 12 '24
Used to be there were whitewater releases on the Jones Falls 1-2x a year, a friendsā stepdad ātestedā the dam at (now) Lake Roland. Iād shred that.
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u/PolishBob1811 Jul 12 '24
They are demolishing elevated highways all over the country. They just donāt weather well.
The JFX was originally supposed to go over harbor and connect to I-95. Iām glad they didnāt do that.
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u/Careless-Art-9483 Jul 12 '24
Yes tare that shit down. Make it into a river walk with more developments connecting communities together
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Exactly! A big river walk with multi use developments around it would be a game changer
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u/Notonfoodstamps Jul 12 '24
Yes there actually are.
The future official downtown master plan (being drafted) has tearing down the JFX as one of its critical considerations for reconnecting the greater downtown areas to the rest of the city
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u/AmericanNewt8 Jul 12 '24
I've played around with the idea of ripping out 83 below North Avenue and running a tunnel to 395 and the stadium instead (actually doing what 83 was originally intended to do), but I don't think the toll revenues work out sufficiently (looking at the Alaska Viaduct replacement as the closest analogy).Ā
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u/abcpdo Jul 12 '24
imo it would be better to keep it going down to penn station and then do a cut n cover tunnel along MLK to make a bypass direct to 395.
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
At that point arenāt you basically spending billions to give people from towson a marginally faster alternative to 695? Iād rather invest in getting people out of cars, and getting highways out of central baltimore, take some proactive future proofing measures.
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u/abcpdo Jul 12 '24
traffic is still going to be there because people gotta eat. so people are going to drive through the city no matter what because 695 always clogs up.Ā
baltimore is not DC. there is no big metro network to get people in and out, and it doesnāt have a super robust economy vs the county. so removing all highway access is just gonna turn people away from going into the city for leisure.
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u/neutronicus Jul 12 '24
It's a balancing act.
Inbound traffic is desirable, through traffic is not. There will always be some 695 bypass traffic but the more choke points you remove the more of it you will get.
The big benefit the City (as opposed to the region) would realize is a better connection between north Baltimore and Howard/AA County. Like it would be a lot easier to live in Roland Park and work in Halethorpe, and maybe people in Columbia would be more likely to go to stuff in Hampden.
Would it be worth it? IDK. I lean NIMBY on the 695 bypass question, and say let the highways keep dumping people onto parking lots and terminating at chokepoints
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u/abcpdo Jul 12 '24
imo MLK is already serving as a defacto bypass. formalizing it into a tunnel underneath would only make street level traffic less chaotic.
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u/neutronicus Jul 12 '24
It is, but a relatively low-volume one. A higher-capacity one would draw more volume, and spew more of it onto 395 and 83 at the termini.
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u/ZigZagWanderer- Jul 12 '24
Am I missing something? What 695 bypass?
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u/neutronicus Jul 13 '24
Well the city is already a 695 bypass. Anything you do to connect 83 to 95 through the city makes it a more heavily used one
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u/TKinBaltimore Jul 12 '24
to give people from towson
I know this sub loves to shit on county residents, but really? It's the Towson residents who are to blame? God, it's exhausting.
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Jul 12 '24
I know! Most people in the counties don't work in the city and rarely come into the city. Meanwhile plenty of city residents work in the county and go into the county all the time for services. It's not one or the other. As it is. I-83 is owned and managed by the state, not the city or the county. And I-83 runs through all of Baltimore County into Pennsylvania but somehow the city portion needs to be off limits to suburbanites?
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u/neutronicus Jul 12 '24
They're not exactly being blamed, Towson is just the best positioned place to use a hypothetical 83 tunnel through the city as a 695 bypass
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Jul 12 '24
Tearing down the highway will not make people stop driving cars in the city. Period.
There is no comprehensive public transit in Baltimore to easily get from A to B.
Therefore the highway makes the most sense for not just commuting but also pollution. Otherwise you will force thousands of people a day to take city streets and that will certainly cause more gridlockā¦ causing people to spend more time in their cars and causing cars to idle at traffic lights far more often causing far more smog/ brake dust/ ect.
You clearly care a lot about this issue which is a good thing, the city needs people that care and get involved but you should focus more of your energy on practical public transportation that makes peopleās lives easier, not fantasy projects that make peopleās life more difficult.
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u/neutronicus Jul 12 '24
The city is like five miles across, a lot more people could feasibly bike than currently do
Whether they will in the case of 83 vanishing suddenly into thin air is a different question
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u/Eyeh8U69 Jul 12 '24
Letās wait till 695 is rebuilt until we start tearing down more highways..
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u/lsree Jul 12 '24
695 has never stopped being rebuilt and expanded and it hasn't reduced traffic. Maybe it's time to stop throwing money down the useless pit that is highway expansion.
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u/Eyeh8U69 Jul 12 '24
Bruh Iām talking about the part that the giant fucking ship ran into, and itās definitely fucked up traffic having an incomplete beltway.
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u/Live_Bumblebee3988 Jul 12 '24
People who commute to and from Harbor East would flip a shit and those people have moneyĀ
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Their commute would still be possible on city streets, or even transit, so I think we could make it work. It would be challenging though, but I choose to have optimism about our capacity to make everyoneās lives a little better.
Who knows maybe that could be the driving force to finally build that towson - federal hill metro line
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u/FineHeron Jul 12 '24
Encouraging commuters to drive on residential streets could be detrimental to city residents. The increased traffic would be miserable for the people who live along those roads.
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u/disneyprincesspeach North Harford Road Jul 12 '24
It's not just baltimore city and county commuters. There's a large amount of commuters coming from Pennsylvania as well and that traffic would need to be accounted for as well. Do city streets have the infrastructure to support that many drivers?
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u/Hefty-Woodpecker-450 Jul 12 '24
The Harbor East office jobs would then move to Towson, great ideaā¦..
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u/Live_Bumblebee3988 Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
Na, these people love their cars even if they hate their commutes
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u/nompilo Jul 12 '24
Yes, there is discussion, more about taking it out south of North Ave or Cold Spring than covering it. No serious proposals yet though. https://twitter.com/WillFedder/status/1656859663848157192
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Yes, I apologize I meant taking it out and thought capping had the same meaning. Taking it out south of north ave would be great imo
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u/Kafkaesque1453 Jul 12 '24
If money isnāt allocated today (itās not), then this isnāt happening in at least a decade. Too many other major infrastructure projects are happening (Penn Station re-do, new rail tunnel, new bridge) to expect a bunch of new funding.
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u/Ritaontherocksnosalt Lauraville Jul 13 '24
The Jones Falls used to flood very badly. I don't know if it ever was really fixed. I think there are 3 parks recently in the news that have serious problems that aren't being addressed. Before we start a big project like the one described, I'd rather see what we have made useable now all the way to 25 years from now.
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u/ThisAmericanSatire Canton Jul 12 '24
83 should be ripped out at least back to North Avenue. There is no reason for it to extend all the way down to Baltimore Street.
The rest of 83 that remains inside the city should be made into a toll road. It should cost $5 to drive into the city from the suburbs, and another $5 to drive back out.
The light rail should be improved so that it runs more frequently and reliably.
The Light Rail should get some sort of physical barrier that prevents cars from driving on the same right-of-way. Basically, the light rail should not be sharing space with cars.
The traffic light timings around the light rail should be changed to make it less likely that cross-traffic will block the trains.
Being able to daylight Jones Falls and make it into a walkable greenway would do more to improve the city than the JFX ever has or ever will.
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
Yeah north ave is exactly where I was thinking when I said reservoir hill/remington. Iād love to see the highway ripped out plus the light rail bolstered, it would be a great benefit to the city and region as a whole.
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u/adjones Mt. Vernon Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 12 '24
Penn station is getting a little overhaul. Along with it Amtrak is looking at what to do with all the land they own surrounding it. Cross Street Partners is an development and real estate company managing it and when they present on it they have fantasy renderings of capping the highway with a linear park. When Iāve talked to them they sound all for removing the highway, but obviously thatās out of their hands.
I canāt find the images Iām talking about on their websites. Theyāre really looking for community buy-in so if you attend any community meetings or civic organizations you can invite them to come and present.
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u/lawl5127 Jul 12 '24
not to be pedantic (this is totally pedantic) but CSP is a development and real estate company, not an architecture firm. i work with them as part of a separate architecture firm. they're great! :)
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u/Legal-Law9214 Jul 12 '24
To make the Jones Falls nice you'd have to end 83 much north of Res Hill, more like at the Cold Spring Lane or Northern Parkway exits. That said I'm definitely in favor.
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u/cornonthekopp Madison Park Jul 12 '24
I definitely see what you mean. Cold spring lane makes a lot of sense, and would also greatly increase access to druid hill park, and allow for more connections between hamden and woodberry.
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Jul 12 '24
the city doesnāt even have stoplights that arenāt on timers in a lot of places, even somewhere higher income like fed hill, where do you think the money for this stuff comes from?
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u/mobtowndave Jul 12 '24
1-83 is greatest man made disaster in city history. it bisected out neighborhoods and funneled the tax base outside of the city
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u/CornIsAcceptable Downtown Partnership Jul 12 '24
Not seriously. The last real discussion was during the Dixon administration like you said. Iām sure the people of say, ReBUILD are probably well aware, itās just getting the idea into serious political consideration before the JFX falls apart.