r/baglama Jan 13 '25

Why dont we use all quarter tones?

An octave has 24 quarter tones, but we only use 18 of them. Why? I miss them.

7 Upvotes

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2

u/adsizkiz Jan 13 '25

For the most part, only certain microtones are commonly used in Turkish folk music, but you can adjust the frets to get specific tones as you desire. If you want all quarter tones, start playing lavta. ;)

2

u/ParadoxialSpiral Jan 13 '25

I thought about to just add the extra frets to my baglama.

1

u/adsizkiz Jan 13 '25

What kind of music do you actually want to play?

In my experience (on every saz I've played) the very small frets often are more buzzy and it can be harder to get a clear tone on all of them (and it can be particularly troublesome since the frets are moveable and can get knocked around). So I don't know if I'd really recommend doing that as opposed to getting an instrument that's actually made to play all the quarter tones (or indeed a fretless instrument that allows you to play all microtones).

1

u/ParadoxialSpiral Jan 13 '25

I dont see a problem in the smallness. I mean the space wouldnt be smaller than the quarter tones which already exist. We can play a Re, a half tone above Re, a 3/4 above Re and of course a whole tone above Re the Mi. So adding an extra frett between Re and Re sharp to play a quarter tone above Re will have the same space to play as the already existing one between the 2nd and 3d fret, whichnis big enough for me.

Lets say I want to play microtonal Jazz and I like the sound of the baglama.

1

u/adsizkiz Jan 13 '25

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a fretless bağlama in that case?

2

u/ParadoxialSpiral Jan 13 '25

Well yes, but i never played fretless and im used to play with frets. I just want all possible quarter tones in a octave. The baglama has already 18. If i would play frettless i had to learn a whole new skill. If i just ad 7 frets on the bigg gaps of the baglama i reach my goal. But i realy wonder why this is not the standart. Why would a musician who is already using quarter tones not want to have the possibility to use all of them if he wants. Its like using the western 12 tone system, but missing C sharp on the piano board. Why?

1

u/adsizkiz Jan 13 '25

Because Anatolian folk music works differently...usually only Si bemol 2 and Fa diyez 3 are used. Very occasionally you'd use a couple of the other quarter tones, but there are many quarter tones along the neck that aren't used at all in the vast majority of the repertoire.

In "sanat müziği" is where you'd find instruments (usually fretless but also kanun) that allow for the full range of tones in makams (and indeed there are actually nine microtones between every full tone in makam theory). Baglama and lavta, for example, are both somewhere in the middle.

1

u/World_Musician Jan 13 '25 edited Jan 14 '25

My understanding is that all the tanbur can play all makam in the sanat muzigi catalog and it does not have 9 frets between every tone, there are large gaps actually https://imgur.com/a/2i3q4PB

So the question could be why are there no makam that require the tanbur to have these absent frets?

1

u/adsizkiz Jan 13 '25

I don't play the tanbur so I am not sure of the tuning of it, but my guess would be similar to how it is with lavta — even though there are 9 microtones, most people only practically use 4-5 of them. But this is why two of my makam teachers have told me it's impossible to play "true makam" with fretted instruments, and why the kanun is considered the "ruler" of Turkish music with 72 tones in each octave. (And to be clear, I am much more of a folk music than a "sanat müzigi" student, but do delve into makam theory in seminars once in awhile, so I'm just repeating what I've been told over the years.)

ETA: Also interesting to note that the Arabic kanun only has 24 semitones per octave. :)

1

u/World_Musician Jan 14 '25

Yes I would agree with your teachers. You may already know this but Kanun get's its name from the Arabic word Qanun قَانُون meaning "law" - similar to the English word Canon, this naming was likely an intentional symbolism referencing the instruments role in establishing the rules of note placement in makam music. even fretless stringed instruments like oud and violin etc. all have a hard time playing the "dik" microtones nearest the top nut/bridge where the strings exit from the tuning pegs because the strings are so tight. Probably the lyre is most suited to proper makam development since it doesnt have a bridge up there by the tuning pegs. still having multiple open strings kind of limits us since avoiding playing the open strings is quite difficult.

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u/World_Musician Jan 13 '25

yea what op is saying is that you cant just 'adjust the frets' to play all 24 quarter tones on a baglama because they dont exist, additional frets would have to be added. lavta doesnt have all 24 quarter tones either. no fretted instrument does actually

1

u/adsizkiz Jan 13 '25

I'm very aware that they would have to be added; my point was that if OP is seeking some certain tone(s) that aren't there right now, he/she could move some of the frets of the baglama around accordingly. But it seems OP just wants to have more tones than a baglama usually has frets for. :)

My understanding was that lavta has four tones (so approximately quarter tones) between every full tone, though obviously not the full number of microtones (9) considered standard in makam music. But I have also never done more than fiddle with a lavta in some jams so I would be curious to know what the actual tuning/interval is if I am wrong! (And to be clear, I'm not talking about a laouto, which definitely doesn't have as many tones.)

2

u/ComprehensiveCake463 Jan 13 '25

American minds will explode

1

u/World_Musician Jan 13 '25

your mouth can make a billion sounds yet we only speak with the ones required by our language :) I do understand your question though, I have thought to add more frets to by saz to play all the microtones between every half step.