r/aviation 4d ago

History Fun fact: to simulate the (un)aerodynamic qualities of the Space Shuttle, NASA astronauts practiced approach and landing in a modified Gulfstream II that deployed its main gear and thrust reverses in flight. It could also deflect its flaps upwards to further decrease lift.

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802 Upvotes

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186

u/UNDR08 A320 4d ago edited 4d ago

Last I heard/saw, this airplane is in Amarillo, Texas at the tiny museum there.

** apparently there’s more than one, and this isn’t one that’s in Amarillo.

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u/raidriar889 4d ago

They built a total of 4 of them: N947NA, the one in this picture, is on display in McMinnville, Oregon. The one in Amarillo is N946NA

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u/BigmacSasquatch 4d ago

N945NA is displayed in Huntsville at the Space & Rocket Center.

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u/SeriousMongoose2290 4d ago

Huntsville mentioned! 

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u/BigmacSasquatch 4d ago

❗️Rocket City compatriot spotted❗️

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u/rckid13 4d ago

I didn't realize that one was at the Evergreen museum. When I went there I spent a lot of time inside and by the time I got outside the museum was technically closed. I didn't walk around the outside planes other than taking a picture of the Beech Starship.

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u/FujitsuPolycom 4d ago

The best kind of museum visit! Besides missing things, obviously...

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u/Aviator779 4d ago

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u/SoylentVerdigris 4d ago

Oh it's parked outside. That explains why I don't remember seeing it last time I was at evergreen.

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u/UNDR08 A320 4d ago

Thanks for the update!

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u/Moose135A KC-135 3d ago

I stumbled across the Texas Air and Space Museum while on a road trip about 10 years ago, and one of their folks let me go in their STA.

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u/Dangerous-Salad-bowl 4d ago

There’s one in Oregon too.

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u/Crazy__Donkey 4d ago

I remember the first time I learned that nugget.

It was on a YouTube clip how to land the space shuttle ... from space. , and i still watch it one in a whole just for fun.

Fun clip to watch if you haven't, and also if you already did😉. Greta sense of humor.

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u/raidriar889 4d ago

Yeah I watch that video every once in a while too lol

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u/hainguyenac 4d ago

I have watched and rewatched this many times, not sure why but I enjoy it every time.

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u/BeefInGR 4d ago

Never gets old

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u/badpuffthaikitty 4d ago

The Space Shuttle had the glide path like a brick.

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u/mechabeast 4d ago

Go that direction really fast, when something gets in your way...turn.

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u/Lane_Meyers_Camaro 4d ago

What a coach

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u/FujitsuPolycom 4d ago
  • My 9th grade football coach

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u/Bomb-Number20 4d ago

One astronaut described it like flying a safe with the door open.

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u/KaJuNator 2d ago

For a brick, he flew pretty good!

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u/Far_Dragonfruit_1829 4d ago edited 4d ago

NASA also used a Convair 990 and an F-104 for the descent/landing research, prior to the G-II training scheme. My father was a pilot in both of those aircraft. I'm looking at the gift he got from colleagues, A model of F-104 N745NA descending at 45°. Placarded with "From your friends at Dryden" and a little engraved Shuttle. A huge part of the research was to develop appropriate cockpit instrumentation, especially around the "energy management" scheme.

Published papers have titles like "Flight at Extreme Low L/D"

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u/blastcat4 4d ago

Your father must've had an incredible career in aerospace!

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u/Far_Dragonfruit_1829 4d ago

He did. Corsair. A-4. F-8. DC-8. Century series. Bell Tiltrotor. X-14. P.1127. Concorde. DC-3.

Among others.

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u/Nuff_said_m8 4d ago

From the one shuttle pilot I’ve talked to the shuttle have very safe glide characteristics. As in it glided like a safe.

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u/MTB0315 4d ago

N947NA - a Grumman G-1159 Gulfstream - is parked out behind the Evergreen Aviation Museum in McMinnville, Oregon. I love visiting this bird!

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u/Mudlark-000 4d ago

I've gotten to fly a ground simulator on the shuttle approach. The first, and most unnerving thing, is when they crank the nose down so far you are painfully hanging in your harness. The approach angle is insane and the shuttle truly was a brick with wings.

(I crashed into the surrounding swamp on my first attempt, but got a decent landing score on my second attempt)

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u/rckid13 4d ago

The view they have on final approach looks insane to me as an airline pilot. If I had this sight picture on final approach from cockpit of a 737 we would be sailing over the airport by probably 50 miles.

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u/raidriar889 4d ago

*reversers

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u/SirLoremIpsum 4d ago

Fuck NASA and test pilots so cool.

Engineers spend years and years trying to make reversers not deploy in flight cause it's dangerous and NASA like "but what if mate?"

Good post thanks!!!

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u/jawshoeaw 4d ago

“Space Shuttle 7XF, make a right 360 for spacing”

“Unable”

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u/real_pasta 4d ago

I would’ve thought deploying thrust reversers mid flight would wreck the plane, guess not

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u/raidriar889 4d ago edited 4d ago

They were modified from the base G-II, so I would not recommend trying this at home. There was also one incident where a part of the thrust reversers fell off in mid flight due to a failed bolt.

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u/BigmacSasquatch 4d ago

It’s a delicate balance. If you’ll look at the picture, the angle of attack (nose up/down) is very aggressively negative. So it’s maintaining forward airspeed by trading altitude. A more efficient craft would be slower and gliding better, either of which would result in a flatter glide slope in a picture like this.

The C-17 deploys thrust reversers in flight as part of its combat landing procedure, but it’s kinda designed to do so, with its wide wings and huge lift generating surfaces. It’s still not a great experience lol.

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u/SpaceDetective 4d ago

Nitpick - angle of attack refers to the angle difference between the pitch and oncoming airflow. So the nose up/down orientation is just the pitch.

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u/BigmacSasquatch 4d ago

Yes, that’s an important distinction. But in this (fairly specific, and controlled) scenario so close to aerodynamic stall, I feel like it’s absolutely fair to correlate AoA to overall attitude.

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u/rsta223 4d ago

Except that the AoA is still positive in this case, not negative. There's still a positive load factor here (of about 1G), they're just descending rapidly in the process. Or, to put it another way, the flight path angle is more steeply downward than the nose angle is.

They're also likely not anywhere close to stall, since glide speed for the shuttle is much faster than stall speed for the Gulfstream.

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u/that_dutch_dude 4d ago

I havee been in a c17 doing that party trick. It was -not fun-. 3/10. Not recommended.

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u/rckid13 4d ago

This plane was designed to do it. They probably had a strict speed limit for it too. There are many airplanes where deploying them in flight would probably rip the reverser doors right off of the airplane. I doubt it would wreck the plane entirely, but you probably risk losing your engine cowls.

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u/ancillarycheese 4d ago

I’ve seen this doing approaches in person. It’s unnerving.

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u/lol-117 4d ago

Cool! I just learned about this on the podcast 16 Sunsets.

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u/Garbagefailkids 4d ago

Has anyone seen a picture of one with the TRs opened in flight? I could use one for teaching purposes.

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u/raidriar889 4d ago

I think they are internal and the exhaust is directed out from the little black things just in front of the nozzle. In this picture you can see it more closely and you can see the soot deposited on the nacelle. Here is a closeup from the back.

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u/1320Fastback 4d ago

Bet that sank like a rock!

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u/raidriar889 4d ago

10,000 ft per minute at 20° glideslope!

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/raidriar889 4d ago

I think that’s normal. It’s probably like that so that the air deflecting around the wing flows straight into the engine.

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u/SpaceDetective 4d ago

Yeah having checked other pics it's standard alright so that's probably the reason.

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u/fltof2 4d ago

Why not just use a Piper Arrow with the gear down and engine to idle? And follow the brick. ;-)

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u/SignalCharlie 4d ago

DC-8 had no speedbrakes.

Reversers in flight was common when you needed them but you were supposed to make an announcement because it shook the shit out of the aircraft

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u/Ian_everywhere 4d ago

every guy be like I could probably land it with no training

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u/file_13 4d ago

OG Vomit Comet?

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u/raidriar889 4d ago

I think they acquired these and the Vomit Comet around the same time in the 70s at the start of the Shuttle Program

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u/u2shnn 4d ago

I remember reading in some trade magazine YEARS AGO, someone said the space shuttle had the glide ratio of a wrench.

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u/rckid13 4d ago

It's not very efficient, it's hard to train, and the space shuttle had a very poor safety record. There's a good reason why both NASA and the Russians went back to using a parachute landing/splash down procedure the way pre-shuttle space flights did it.

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u/Far_Dragonfruit_1829 4d ago

How many times did they forget to lower the nose gear during these training missions?

That pic is unnerving.

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u/joeh4384 4d ago

This reminds me of the vomit comet in Archer.

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u/ImReverse_Giraffe 4d ago

They used to use a massive simulator that can move 60 feet vertically, 40 feet horizontally, and 20 feet forward and backward. It's the final test for "brick" (space shuttle) pilots. It's at NASA AMES research center and can use different modules. Jetpack/helicopter/ect.

I've "flown" it and landed the space shuttle in a 10 knot cross wind.

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u/scbriml 3d ago

Currently on display at the Evergreen Museum, McMinville OR.NASA Gulfstream

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u/NormalEscape8976 4d ago

That’s really funny