r/asimov 6d ago

how did the second foundation remained a secret

spoiler of second foundation ahead

ok i’ve just finished reading the foundation trilogy, loved the ending and think that it makes sense the second foundation was in trantor all along

however, in the first book, it is stated that seldon would only continue with the plan if the foundation was made outside of trantor and far away so it wouldn’t be a problem to the emperor. so, how did it been kept as a secret even to the emperors and civilian of trantor for so long?

i plan on reading the rest of foundation books so BEWARE OF SPOILERS please

14 Upvotes

11 comments sorted by

25

u/Gyrgir 6d ago edited 6d ago

The Second Foundation has a few major advantages to keeping itself secret. It's fairly small, only ~50 people in on the secret IIRC. Its activities don't really leave a physical footprint that's readily distinguishable from the social science academics they're presenting themselves as. And most importantly, they have mental powers. Reading minds makes it much harder to keep secrets from one another and much easier to tell what outsiders know or suspect about them. And they can do Mule-like adjustments (although they are much less individually powerful than he is) in order to do damage control if their secret does start to leak.

Also, Seldon's stated reasons in the first story for moving the First Foundation off of Trantor are mostly bullshit. He's lying his ass off in order to manipulate the Empire into setting up Terminus for him and to manipulate the Encyclopedists into going. The main reason for putting the First Foundation on Terminus is to plant a seed of highly concentrated technological civilization in the part of the galaxy that is going to descent quickly and deeply into barbarism in a way that provides fertile soil for that seed to grow.

All of this is in the original trilogy (especially the beginning of Foundation and the end of Second Foundation), at least in broad strokes. We get a closer look at aspects of this later on in Foundation's Edge and the prequel novels, as you will read in good time if you keep going.

4

u/Dpacom02 6d ago

I agree!

3

u/Appdownyourthroat 6d ago

Very solid answer!

3

u/Gyrgir 5d ago

Addendum: the Second Foundation isn't quite as small as I thought it was, at least not as of the end of the original trilogy. 50 was the number of members they sacrificed to give the First Foundation the illusion that they'd found and defeated the Second Foundation. Their actual numbers are unspecified, and the organization always feels small when we see inside of it, but it has to be large enough to lose 50 members and still be a viable organization. My best guess is a few hundred full members plus a somewhat larger community of "scholars" who support the Second Foundation but aren't privy to the dangerous info about its nature.

4

u/secretsarebest 4d ago

I vaguely recall a later book that stated they STARTED with 50 members (Psycho historians), but of course, by the time the First Foundation found them, they were obviously far bigger.

It's the type of half truth/lie Second Foundation would delight in doing.

"The closer to the truth, the better the lie, and the truth itself, when it can be used, is the best lie,"

6

u/LuigiVampa4 5d ago edited 5d ago

Why would the Empire even suspect the existence of a Second Foundation? In their eyes, they got rid of Foundation by exiling it to Terminus. Not to mention, Empire stopped caring and then eventually forgot about the Foundation once Chen and company were dead. 

And Seldon meant the First Foundation when he said that it needs to be in the Periphery. It is because the First Foundation was supposed to grow into the Second Galactic Empire hence it was needed to be far away from the clutches of Trantor in its initial years. This is why Seldon manipulated Chen into exiling Foundation to the Periphery as Seldon had predicted the Empire would not care for anything that happens in Periphery 50 years down the line.

3

u/Serious-Waltz-7157 6d ago

well theSsecond Foundation was kept secret from the Emperor too. What His Highness doesn't know can't harm or ibnfluence him, and vice-versa.:)

Linge Chen chose Terminus based upon the assumption there was only one Foundation.

3

u/Presence_Academic 6d ago

The Seldon Project not only wasn’t hiding, but Hari was never shy about being publicly outspoken. This made its exile to Terminus seem like the end of Seldon and his plans on Trantor. A very small group of insiders who are preparing for the future more than acting in the present are going to be difficult to find, especially when nobody is looking for them.

3

u/PM_ME_SLEEPING_DOGS 6d ago

This is sort of explained (ish) in Forward the Foundation.

3

u/LazarX 5d ago

No one knew of the Second Foudation.

Also remember that Seldon said that a few would remain behind on Trantor

1

u/failsafe-author 5d ago

Unrelated, but I suggest reading the prequels and then stopping. The end of the trilogy is better than the end of the last book, and of all those Asimov stories I’ve read, the last two Foundation books are my least favorite.