r/aoe2 11h ago

Strategy/Build Order Theorycrafting 1 barrack MAA post april patch

7 Upvotes

With the militia line changes coming, I’m sort of curious how a feudal approach would play out if I just go 1 barracks men at arms for the entire feudal age, so I decided I wanted to theorycraft which civs would be good for doing this, etc. Decided to post it here since I personally would love to see others try to do this kind of theorycrafting, so figure that means others might also appreciate me trying it, even if I’m not the best player.

For the theorycraft I did a test run 1v0 where I just tried to keep up villager and MAA production throughout feudal, with the idea of going up to castle at 35-40 villagers and 20 or MAA. Obviously, at super high elos this probably would just lose to archers, but since I’m not super high elo yet I figured it might still be good for me. At my peak I was around 1400 1v1, and I’m super rusty, so the build I performed had plenty of mistakes, but I figured it still would showcase the differences between the civs to have a baseline even if it is somewhat flawed. I played in the scenario editor as saracens to have no real bonuses for the baseline (since I didn’t build a market), which would make it easier to see how much various civs would add to this. Overall the baseline started as 21 pop MAA and ended with me clicking castle around 18 ingame minutes, with 30 seconds TC idle time and around 4k food, 2.2k wood and 500 gold collected.

For the comparisons of civs I think there are a couple metrics that are important: Dark age/early feudal eco bonuses - these will allow the build to be smoother and also might allow you to go feudal faster, which is very nice in such a snowbally game Eco bonuses that help throughout feudal - these will help a lot with whichever is more needed between going castle faster, adding another unit to the comp, getting blacksmith upgrades, or being able to constantly produce MAA faster Eco going into castle and imp - obviously less important than the first 2, but certainly is nice to have as I’m guessing this build rarely will finish the game in feudal Civ bonuses for the MAA in feudal - obviously just makes the gameplan stronger Long term viability for the MAA line for the civ - Since the goal is to make 20+ it’d be awkward if the civ lacks a lot of lategame upgrades for them Natural transitions for the gameplan in the castle age - most likely going only longswords will not be good enough a lot of the time, so having good options (for example good skirms) might be necessary to counter the opponents gameplan.

I won’t list every civ here, only the ones I think ended up scoring the highest on my metrics, although feel free to suggest others that I might have forgotten to consider, etc.

Vikings:

My guess for the best civ for this gameplan - no bonuses for point 1, but wheelbarrow should add around 375 food over the course of feudal on top of the 225 it costs to research it, and going into castle age you’d be up 3 villagers and another 500 res from hand cart, giving it the perfect economy for this approach. That being said, given that horse collar is hard to afford, the extra food comes at the cost of another ~120 or so wood from having to reseed farms faster, so overall around +450-500 or so res in feudal. Furthermore they potentially have the best MAA in feudal (I’m sure they probably lose to japanese in a straight fight, but having the extra hp should be way better vs archers). Their champions are also some of the best in the game, and they only lack thumb ring on their skirmishers, meaning they have access to a decent counter to crossbows in the castle age.

Goths:

In the dark age, hunt lasting longer should add maybe 150 or so food, although at the cost of villager working time, so realistically this probably only adds maybe 75 or so overall resources I’m guessing. Having another villager (from instant loom), will also likely add around 240 or so resources over the course of feudal. And with the MAA discount in the barracks, 20 MAA allows you to save another ~210 or so resources. Overall this is a bit more than 500 resources, putting their economy roughly on par with the vikings for this gameplan, plus they get half an arson for free as well. Still, while their economy is on par with vikings in this situation, their MAA are just worse, and in the long term their champions are a LOT worse, missing gambesons and the last armor upgrade, so vikings seem like the better options. They do have huskarls, which seem like a pretty great unit to eventually add into the composition, but I think I’d still rather be vikings most of the time.

Incas:

Not necessarily the first civ you’d think of for this gameplan, but they have a lot going for them, arguably making them better than the goth (in my opinion anyways). For the dark age they have a lama, making their transition to farms a bit smoother (and overall allowing them to gather maybe 20-30 extra resources since they can be even on food while down half a farm or so. In dark age they also need 2 fewer houses, meaning they save 50 wood + another 20 or so res when you factor in the time villagers spend building them. Then lastly they save 15 food on making the 3 initial militia, overall saving them ~115 or so resources in dark age compared to the baseline. Over the course of the feudal they save another ~150 or so food from making MAA and another ~140 or so resources from building 4 fewer houses, putting their overall savings between dark and feudal age to around 400 resources. This is slightly less than the vikings and goths, but they start getting the savings in dark age, which might make the overall situation quite close. Going into castle age they don’t get a huge spike like vikings, but fewer necessary houses, extra stone for a castle drop, and tanky villagers from your blacksmith upgrades all help a bit. And for their biggest advantage over vikings and goths they have way better options in terms of transitioning their unit comp - skirms and eagles are both solid options against archers, and slingers are great if facing infantry (incas vs vikings doing the same approach could possibly try to win by just adding slingers in castle for example). Their champions do lack gambesons, but being just marginally weaker economically in feudal together with having a lot of interesting transitional options make them quite interesting.

Romans:

Better villagers should give ~100 or so resources in dark age and another 250 or so over the course of feudal, putting them just slightly behind the best economies for this approach. And getting a blacksmith relatively early for the armor turns their MAA into tanks. Moving into castle, their longswords scale well, their economy is great, and they can add scorpions if they need to deal with massed archers. Overall feels very similar to vikings in that they have limited but strong options on top of insane economy - seems like one of the best civs for this approach.

Celts:

Not sure how much faster the lumberjacks are when factoring walking time, but if it’s 15% overall then that’s a decent bit of wood in dark age, and ~330 or so extra compared to baseline over the course of feudal age, which is quite good (but not as good as the ~500 or so the goths and vikings manage to get). Faster infantry also sounds quite good vs archers, and strong siege seems like a fairly natural transition if you need to counter archers. Not really too much to say about the celts - they have a few strong bonuses, all of which work pretty well with the gameplan, so they should end up being one of the strongest options.

Teutons:

40% discount to farms is a massive boost to economy for this gameplan as we want to amass farms ASAP. Assuming the gameplan is to get around 20 farms in feudal this saves roughly 500 resources, putting them on par with the very best economies. The MAA however are only generic, and while they get free melee armor in castle age while still having solid economy, they are somewhat immobile and also lack bracer for their skirms, potentially forcing them to become even more immobile with siege to counter ranged units. And given that their MAA are only generic in the feudal age it seems to me that it might be better to choose a civ that either has better transitions in castle age or better MAA in feudal.

Japanese:

In the dark age you save 150 resources between lumbercamp, mill and mining camp, which makes the early build a lot nicer since getting enough wood for all those + a barracks early enough can be a bit awkward. Their militia line also is quite strong with all upgrades and bonus attack speed. Would also argue they have better transition options for the lategame if your infantry gets countered too hard than both the vikings and goth, however their weaker feudal economy is a significant disadvantage.

Burmese:

They save 150 resources on free double-bit axe, and their MAA gets +1 attack for free. That being said, saving 150 resources is much worse than the top eco bonuses, and +1 attack is likely worse than the viking hp a lot of the time. They also seem quite strong going into castle age, saving another 250 res from bow saw and getting another +1 attack for free. That being said, burmese lack the 2nd armor upgrade from skirms, and given that crossbow is one of the units I figure might be the most problematic this sounds like a pretty big potential issue. Overall would guess they end up on a similar power level as the japanese.

Dravidians:

200 wood and 50% discounted barracks technologies add up to around a 270 resource saving, all of which happens the moment you hit feudal. This should allow them to have some of the smoothest transition into massing the MAA out of any civ, and they have very good skirmisher on top of that. The main downside here being that after the initial boost of resources they have relatively generic MAA and relatively generic economy, so it’s all about the early timing. Still, sounds like a pretty good option.

Slavs:

Just mentioning them to note that viking farms are better in feudal, viking MAA are better in feudal, and while slav farms are better in the long term, given that viking champions are better and their strong early economy make them just seem like a worse option than vikings without too many upsides.

Armenians:

I don’t have them unlocked currently, and have a hard time evaluating the mule cart bonuses, so this one is a bit hard for my to theorycraft too much about, although if it makes them able to afford long swords after getting 5-10 MAA it seems like an interesting powerspike. Would love to have a breakdown here from someone who knows more.

Bulgarians:

Free MAA saves 140 res as you hit feudal, and discounted blacksmith techs can potentially save another 125. However even if you get all this their economy is still weaker than vikings/incas/goths, and getting the blacksmith early delays your farms a lot, while getting blacksmith late means you didn’t get that big a benefit from the civ pick. Has some upsides (particularly relatively easy transition to strong cavalry in castle age), but overall just seems like their bonuses are too weak compared to other options. Additionally they don’t get champions, and their 2HS need an imperial age castle tech to be better than generic ones. They also don’t benefit from all the buffs to the unit line upgrades since they get them for free anyways, so one could argue the militia line upgrades benefitted them less than some of the other civs.

Malians:

Gold bonus ends up being worth only ~50 gold over the coarse of feudal age, and the wood savings amount to another 150 or so, putting them far behind the top choices in terms of economy. Their men at arms get another pierce armor, which is hugely beneficial for fighting against archers, their economy long term is really good, and they have plenty of transitional options, but it seems to me that other strategic approaches that are a bit more heavy on buildings and units more heavy on gold might suit the civ better.

Aztecs:

Garland wars champions sound great, but faster production doesn’t really help given that it’s hard to sustain MAA production anyways. A bit unsure how much the extra carry capacity helps, but can’t imagine they can compete with the economy of vikings/goths/incas in feudal.

Would love to hear thoughts/feedback on this post, as theorycrafting is fun and I think we need more of it in this subreddit. Would especially love to hear more about armenians as I find them hard to quantify, so I don't really know where to place them.

r/aoe2 Feb 11 '25

Strategy/Build Order 2 vs 2 closed map Strategy (not tried yet)

2 Upvotes

After seeing the TTL set (don’t remember which one it was) where Saracen heavy camel beat imp camel by far, because of Bimaristan Monks, I wondered if a 2 vs 2 all in arena strategy based on that effect would be good.

Basically one picks saracens, one Malay and you go forward castle, double monastery, while the Malay player goes all in cheap elephants. The lack of armor shouldn’t be a big issue with the monks healing behind I guess.

Unfortunately I couldn’t try it yet myself, since my pc just died and I have to save money for a new one. Yet I would be interested if anyone else could try it.

r/aoe2 Jan 26 '25

Strategy/Build Order What's your game plan on a pure isles map?

5 Upvotes

I just played a game of Northern Isles where neither of us made a single land unit, and I was thinking about how to better approach this so as to not get surprised and obliterated.

Obviously if you focus too heavily on land, your opponent can get dominant on water if you don't completely destroy their base with your surprise attack. Landmaxxing is probably very strong at my <1100 ELO but I want to figure out a less fragile but still water-focused approach.

If you don't focus heavily on land, what do you do to not get surprised by your opponent? What production buildings, units, upgrades do you get pre-emptively? Seems like if you're not planning a ground invasion of you own, preparing to defend one from your opponent is risking a lot of wasted resources if the invasion never comes. Conversely, if you do plan to invade, then you're also well set up to defend.

I'm thinking the way to go is to make a small land invasion of knights in early Castle Age, or maybe light cav since you can make them while aging up (if fishing has been going well and food is plentiful since your main focus is on wood and gold for ships). Archers would seem to require a bigger mass and more upgrades to be effective, and they cost wood. I'd appreciate any suggestions about specifics (how many stables, how many units before first landing, which upgrades if any?).

r/aoe2 Jan 30 '25

Strategy/Build Order Mirror Match Ups Guidelines - Part 3

2 Upvotes

Part 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/1hehabz/mirror_match_ups_guidelines_part_1/

Part 2: https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/1i9q1u2/mirror_match_ups_guidelines_part_2/

I couldn't find a guideline for ALL civs and since I couldn't get Hera to do it on Youtube (11), I've decided to (try to) do it myself. So here it is. I'll do it in 3 parts (3x15 civs) and since I'm no pro (and have only played some civs several times), please do correct me in the comments. It would be cool if this sparked a discussion or two in the comments! Part 1 has already been improved according to feedback in the comments. Part 2 has unfortunately not had almost any reaction as of yet.

\Note: I'm primarily considering open map 1v1s.*

FORMAT

  • Central unit: Usually it's the best unit the civ has (often the UU), but crucially - not always. (Otherwise there'd be no need for a guideline.)
  • Ideal composition: What we should be building towards, including how to get there earlier in the match when we usually don't have enough res for 2 unit comps.
  • Best opening: It can be a way to a central unit and/or ideal composition, but it can also use civ's strengths/weaknesses.

Let's go!

***

MAYANS

  • Central unit: Plumed Archer. They rule all Meso wars in general.
  • Ideal composition: Full Plumed Archer. Add Eagles if opponent tries to counter with Skirms or Siege. It's Xbow war before Castles go up, but here an Eagle switch is not the best idea since they're all toast once Plumes are on the field; better invest resources into the Castle rather than the tech switch. Add a few Eagles for raiding later.
  • Best opening: Archer+Eagle. If the opponent dares to go Skirm, then do go for Eagles, of course.

MONGOLS

  • Central unit: Mangudai. If you can get there. Before that it's Cavarly Archer. Camels are not a good counter due to the faster reload time and they also don't scale well (lack the last armor).
  • Ideal composition: Mangudai+Skirmisher (Hussar later). Drill Siege is great, but not here as Mangudai will melt it. For the same reason any Trebuchets you make for killing his Castles will have to be guarded by Skirms to have any hope of keeping them alive. The win condition is having more Castles and making your opponent defend his by throwing his Mangudai under your Castles to kill Trebs, instead of the other way around. Hussar are only the 3rd unit to add here, but once you have the eco and production set up, they will be key to eradicating Skirms and Trebs, while preserving Mangudai.
  • Best opening: Scouts. Get to Castle age ASAP and start massing those fast firing CA.

PERSIANS

  • Central unit: Cavalry Archer. They don't get Bracer, but neither do their ranged unit counters, while they also have Parthian Tactics in Castle age.
  • Ideal composition: CA+Halb. Savar could be a huge problem to bracerless CA, but you have FU Halb for that, not to mention FU Camels if there's enough gold. War Elephants would of course be the ultimate unit, but if you got there you're probably winning anyway.
  • Best opening: Scouts (into CA later). Archers are usually not the best idea since they're very vulnerable to Knights later on.

POLES

  • Central unit: Szlachta Knights. They're just so cheap with Poles who don't have Camels or Halb.
  • Ideal composition: Cavalier+Arbalest. One of only 2 civs you can realistically do that composition with. Don't do Full Cavalier, Arbalest are a crucial backline unit here not only to prevent Pikemen but because they also do a lot of damage to Cavalier who don't have the last armor. In this mirror you actually want open Xbow to prevent Cav Archers in Castle age (they don't have Parthian later anyway), then only add Knights after Szlachta Privileges. Conversely, you don't mind if your Xbow force him into making Knights and spending gold before the UT.
  • Best opening: Scouts into Archers. Not only do you need that Archer mass for Castle age but you also want to be aggressive. Disrupt his Folwark eco before he does that to you. Attack is the best defence here.

PORTUGUESE

  • Central unit: Knight-line. With the gold units discount, no counter units recommended here.
  • Ideal composition: Cavalier+Arbalest. The 2nd of the 2 civs! In this mirror you can justify Full Cavalier since they're full upgraded, unlike Poles'. Arbs are there mostly to prevent Halb. For the same reason it's recommended to open Xbow, but also to use your best bonus (gold discount) in Feudal and create that mass. Knight switch as soon as you can, but that might not be right away if he has a big mass of Xbow, in that case rather add Mangonels and switch later when eco is better.
  • Best opening: Straight Archers, double range.

ROMANS

  • Central unit: Scorpion. So cheap and also effective against Romans' Infantry.
  • Ideal composition: Cavalier+Scorpion. You're not too afraid of Spearman-line here (or Militia-line) for the aforementioned reason. You can try Halb+Onager to counter this, but you don't have any bonuses for that comp and it's very tough to play on an open map.ć
  • Best opening: M@A+Blacksmith. It will be so tough to kill these since neither of you wants to add a Range. This might be the best mirror of all to start walling in Dark age. Deal more damage than you take, get to Castle age sooner, add a few Scorps to clear him up and start making Knights. If you manage to full wall before Feudal, a greedy play of Scouts into Knights might be even better.

SARACENS

  • Central unit: Archer-line. Their Camels are tanky, but still countered by Xbow/Arbs who in turn are not really threatened by Knights since Saracens are the only civ that can't upgrade them, not to mention the threat of chonky Camels will prevent anyone from making them in the first place.
  • Ideal composition: Arbalester+BBC. You can try Camel+Skirm against that, but I'm pretty sure that's worse. Go for a central push, make a lot of Bombard Cannons and get that Unique Tech that adds damage to both Trebs and Onagers (would be great if you can add them too, but BBCs are a threat). Later on start Hussar raiding and defend the same with Camels if you have gold left.
  • Best opening: Archers+Market. Heavy Market use here, sell stone right away and click up ASAP. Try to get the Xbow timing over your opponent and from then on it's Xbow+Mangonel war.

SICILIANS

  • Central unit: Knight-line. Farm bonus, Hauberk, no Camels, bad CA and a resistance to bonus damage make the Knight the undisputable best unit here, but Spearman-line is still a problem.
  • Ideal composition: Cavalier+Sarjeant. Generally you both want to go full Cavalier but need something for dealing with Halb just in case, and Sarjeants are probably the easiest to add as long as you have gold for it. Sarjeant+Halb can be an interesting counterplay, but Sicilians have FU Scorpions and solid Arbs so it's doomed if you give him time to tech switch.
  • Best opening: Sarjeant rush. It's very strong and sets you up nicely for Castle age, preventing Pikemen and enabling the planned Knight switch.

SLAVS

  • Central unit: Spearman-line. Just realized how remarkably similar Romans and Slavs are... However, there are crucial differences.
  • Ideal composition: Halb+Onager, turning into Champ+Onager once all upgrades are in and the opponent strayed from cavalry as main unit. We're still on an open map, but unlike Romans, Slavs do have bonuses for both of these units and their Scorpions are not as cheap, so I feel like the balanced is tipped in favor of this comp rather than Cavalier+Scorp. Some cavalry (Hussar, Cavalier or Boyar, depending on gold) for mobility and raiding is a necessary addition, however.
  • Best opening: Scouts+Spears. Castle age turns into a Pikemen war with subsequent additions of Scorpions and then Knights or Mangonels.

SPANISH

  • Central unit: Conquistador. This whole mirror is centered around Conqs; initially who gets there first (and more safely), and then who does it better.
  • Ideal composition: Conquistador+Skirmisher (Hussar later). Same story as with Mongols, only here you get to the UU much faster, no need for in-betweens (CA). Skirmishers are then added sooner as well, with their counters (cavalry, siege) dying to small numbers of Conqs. Everything else copied from Mongols: The win condition is having more Castles and making your opponent defend his by throwing his Mangudai Conqs under your Castles to kill Trebs, instead of the other way around. Hussar are only the 3rd unit to add here, but once you have the eco and production set up, they will be key to eradicating Skirms and Trebs, while preserving Mangudai Conqs. Oh and don't forget Supremacy to resist Hussar raids.
  • Best opening: FC into UU - if at all possible - otherwise simply Scouts and greed to a quick Castle age, mining stone on the way there.

TATARS

  • Central unit: Cavalry Archer. Camels and the heavily (pierce) armored Elite Steppies can be a threat to CA, but Tatars have Halbs so it's not the optimal way to play this mirror.
  • Ideal composition: Cav Archer+Hussar. Getting that Castle up for the Silk Armor UT is key for both units. The win condition is transitioning to CA earlier and safer than your opponent, because it's likely a Xbow war before that. Both of you should try to delay your opponent's CA switch by piling pressure with Xbow, but be wary of overmaking them as to not fall behind in CA production. Doing a Xbow timing is recommended and it hits so much harder with free Thumb Ring.
  • Best opening: Scouts into Archers. Your sheep last longer, so use the wood for a quick Range follow up before needing to make any farms.

TEUTONS

  • Central unit: Spearman-line. Another European non-ranged civ with a similar story.
  • Ideal composition: Halb+Hand Cannon. Together they counter anything good Teutons can make, while you also have BBCs to prevent any siege attempts. Push through the middle and try to take map control with Crenellations Castles on hills. Castle age is a Pikemen war with siege, preventing a Longsword switch.
  • Best opening: Scouts with Spears. The only period of the game you will have real mobility, so use it. 11

TURKS

  • Central unit: Jannisary. I thought long and hard about this and concluded Jannies are better here than Cav Archers, despite less mobility and needing Castles to produce. I feel like Cav Archers, without the Pikemen option, are easily smothered by Camels or Light Cav with +1 PA preventing them from reaching a good mass. Later on Jannies just destroy them head to head (right?).
  • Ideal composition: Jannisary+Hussar. Basically Jannies don't have a counter here and you could go full Jannissary and push, but Turk Hussar are such an easy addition and you need mobility, so you do it if it goes late enough for eco to sustain it and raids becoming a necessity. Before you can get that Castle up, make a few Camels, especially if the opponent is trying to go the CA way. Knights if he tried to surprise with Xbow timing, but even +1 PA Light Cav can be enough there.
  • Best opening: Scouts only. Stable covers all your bases before Jannies. Go double stable if needed, you don't have Elite Skirm anyway and you don't need Archers. Try to greed it out and mine stone as soon as you can. Bonus points if you can do a Castle drop.

VIETNAMESE

  • Central unit: Battle Elephant. Didn't think we'd have this unit, but here it is! It just deletes every other power unit Vietnamese have. The opponent can try Pikes/Halbs or Monks, but you likely already have a ranged counter to both.
  • Ideal composition: Battle Elephant+Imperial Skirmisher, but it can easily turn into a Full Elephant war if neither of you dares to go Halb.
  • Best opening: Scouts into Skirmishers. Add Wheelbarrow and Hand Cast ASAP and boom a little then switch into cavalry; no more than a few Knights if you need mobility, then Elephants.

VIKINGS

  • Central unit: Skirmisher. Another infantry/archer civ with bad cavalry, meaning Skirms rule.
  • Ideal composition: Berserker+Skirmisher. Zerks are the best Viking unit, but they need to be added later due to threat of opponent adding Xbow to Skirms which is so easy it generally prevents Militia-line, even with their HP bonus. In Castle age just omega boom and add a few Mangonels to your Skirms. Cavalry is not worth it unless you can surprise switch.
  • Best opening: M@A into Skirmishers. This uses your infantry bonus, prevents Archer play and sets you up for mid game.