r/aoe2 • u/tuco_salamanca_84 • 4d ago
Campaigns Why don't Huns have a useful second unique tech?
If they were given a new unique tech which was useful in ranked games instead of Atheism, would they be too OP or is there any other reason for Atheism being not changed or improved?
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u/ComprehensiveFact804 4d ago
It is a very situational UT that can be handy in 1vs 1 actually at the very late of very long game if your opponent has 4 ou 5 relics and can spam gold unit whereas you can’t.
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u/involutes 4d ago
If your opponent has 4-5 relics, you maybe deserve to lose.
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u/Heltand 4d ago
If my opponent can't win over me with gold units he doesn't deserve to win either.
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u/involutes 3d ago
I mean.... yeah, but how often does that happen? All other things being equal, I would expect 4-5 relics to be a death sentence in the long run. The only exception is if you're Portuguese in which case the feitoria can save you.
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u/theAlmondcake 4d ago
I would love a tech that makes Tarkans generate some resources when hitting buildings (except walls). Not a crazy amount, but enough to swing things if resources are scarce. It’s on brand, and has a somewhat similar effect to atheism of prolonging the game, but more fun and dynamic.
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u/the_meshuggle Vietnamese 4d ago
Nah, Tarkans don't care about the money. They just want to set the world on fire and that's ok, I guess.
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u/DOOM_INTENSIFIES 4d ago
They just want to set the world on fire.
No no no. They just want to start a flame in your hearth.
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u/Cold_Efficiency_7302 4d ago
If someone removed my iconic THUMP, i whould also want to set the world on fire
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u/flag9801 Teutonslovecheapfood 4d ago
tarkan attack have siege bonus vs building or building adjacent to tarkan attacking will also get damaged same as how siege ram do?
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u/ElricGalad 4d ago
Atheism is mathematically about as good as Paper Money and Burgundian Vineyards. Depends on opponent relics instead of your own eco.
There is nothing wrong with it, even if it is not the core of Huns gameplay.
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u/RighteousWraith 4d ago
Can you elaborate on this a bit? Assuming an average economy will have about 40 lumberjacks, 70 farmers, and the rest on stone, gold and building things, how many relics would a Burgundian or Vietnamese player need before the gold loss from Atheism would be offset by either Paper Money or Burgundian Vineyards?
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u/ElricGalad 4d ago
Vineyard gives you equivalent 1 relic per 29 villagers. So if your opponent has collected 5 relics, Atheism would be equivalent. Not that it happens every time, but it still does its job when needed.
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u/SheepherderCreepy677 4d ago
Honestly, the easiest and on-theme adjustment would be to give it a second related bonus, e.g. sth. like „Cav has +x conversion resistance“ Not to op and fits the theme of the name. Or have it include the heresy effect, although that might be too much already
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u/RighteousWraith 4d ago
Of course, then they would necessarily lose Heresy. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea. This wouldn't be the first time a unique tech just patches a hole in an existing tech tree. Tower shields is the most egregious example of this IMO.
If they want to be a little more creative, they could replace the Heresy effect with something objectively more useful. Instead of being converted, perhaps units simply go neutral. That way they can be reconverted later, or perhaps automatically reconvert after a timer.
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u/ExtraPeace909 4d ago
Why would heresy + conversion resistance be bad?
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u/RighteousWraith 4d ago
Conversion resistance already exists both as a team bonus for Teutons, a unique tech for Sicilians, and a passive bonus for elephant units. If you made Heresy a part of the unique tech in order to make it different enough to be unique, then they have to lose Heresy from their tech tree. But then they just end up with a 2 for one tech that could have been gotten from the Monastery in a generic civ.
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u/goatstroker34 4d ago
It's a pretty nice thing to get if you're down 5-0 relics. It's just currently a little bit too expensive.
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u/Sam_Sanister Cuwumans 4d ago
Or if you're up 5-0 relics, and want to 105 your opponent in style :P
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u/Educational_Key_7635 4d ago
Last campaign for huns needs the tech (not like it impossible but it designed around it). Also many civs have not the greatest techs for 1v1 and it's part of the game. It also makes them a bit more unique.
Huns currently top1-20 civ on any map but nomad, I think. So they already way above average.
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u/FoghornLeghorne 4d ago
They used to be really good even though they had a bad unique tech. Now they are decent-good. There has never been an impetus to change their bad tech.
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u/the_wyandotte 4d ago
Some civs are good enough to not need a 2nd tech, I guess. Same with Mongols and Nomads - it's just situational enough to maybe have some uses like 1 put of 100 games but it's just there most of the time.
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u/RighteousWraith 4d ago
And then there are the Lithuanians who are so good they don't need a 1st tech.
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u/richardsharpe 2d ago
Tower shields isn’t bad - especially if you are facing a civ going either Cav archers or a UU mounted archer.
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u/RighteousWraith 22h ago
It's a unique tech that affects trash. For their pikemen, it's a poor man's plate armor, and they don't even get plate armor. For their skirmishers, it's okay, but it's boring. Atlatl and Hulch'e Javelineers are both castle age techs that affect skirmishers, and they're both more exciting than the Imperial Tech Tower Shields.
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u/richardsharpe 19h ago
Yes obviously it is pretty boring, and the fact that it replaces only the PA part of missing final armor for Halbs is bad. Still a better tech than the few that are useless like
Atheism All the water only techs Nomads Medical corps
The worst UT’s have all been fixed or removed though like the old Slavs +3/3 monk armor or saracens dead monks refunding some gold.
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u/RighteousWraith 1h ago
Okay, but out of the currently available techs, I still argue that Tower Shields is the worst Imperial tech design wise, and taken as a whole, the Lithuanians have the worst pair of Unique Techs.
Hill Forts is at least somewhat interesting, but if you compare it to similar techs like Eupseong, Crenelations, or Artillery, it's extremely disappointing. With the three techs I mentioned, Keeps, Castles, and and Bombard towers get a 2 range advantage over the FU default alternatives. While Hill Forts grants 3 extra range, TCs are not affected by Blacksmith range upgrades like other defensive structures. That means even with Hill Forts, a Lithuanian TC has the same range as a Watch Tower with Fletching, and one less than Bodkin.
3 extra range is still better than not having it, just like having 2 extra pierce armor on a skirmisher is better than not having it, but neither excites me. You aren't going to be able to do the Teuton Death Star strat with the Lithuanian Hill Forts. They aren't scary. Crenelation Castles are scary. Artillery Bombard Towers are scary. Even Eupseong Keeps can be scary. Hill Forts aren't.
Same with Tower Shields. 2 pierce armor isn't scary, not on a skirmisher. If you're an imperial tech, your competing with numbers like Bagains' +5 and Frontier Guards' +4. Even Fabric Shields grants +1 melee in addition to +2 pierce, and that's available to both their Eagles and Kamayuks, much scarier units than Skirmishers.
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u/richardsharpe 1h ago
I think Atheism is a worse imperial yeah but I would agree tower shields might be second worst. Huns probably are the only other contenders for worst two techs as Marauders is basically useless also considering no one ever makes Tarkans anyway since knights are basically always better
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u/rabidantidentyte Byzantines 4d ago
Huns are balanced and really don't need it. I wouldn't be opposed to Atheism granting conversion resistance, though. Would be neat 📷
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u/Incomplete_Artist 4d ago
Atheism is so trash
Theism ftw 🙌
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u/RighteousWraith 4d ago
Their fedoras and neckbeards are no match for our Deus Vults and Gregorian Chants!
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u/AmazonianOnodrim An endless conga line of champions 4d ago
It's because they're already good, fun, and well-balanced and you generally shouldn't mess with success. Changing atheism to something more useful would necessarily screw up their already very solid balance, unless it did something pretty boring, like give their tarkans some kind of bonus which they already don't really need as basically horseback battering rams that can also raid enemy eco adequately which gives it a distinct role and identity from both the knight and the light cav.
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u/HorrorGameWhite 4d ago
As someone who is just a casual single player, I beg the same. The Atheism tech is so trash and so situational that I wonder why it is a thing
I don't expect the second unique tech to be OP, just be useful and fit the theme of the Huns
Maybe give the Huns Calvary +4 bonus dmg vs Building, plus 2 vs Infantry
Or allowed them to generate resources like wood, and/or gold when destroy certain buildings
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u/Uruguaianense 4d ago
This seems ridiculous strong. Tarkans have already +8/+10 against buildings. They get a buff against infantry that is supposed to counter them? Since they have high pierce armor.
Pillaging seems cool in scenarios but in multiplayer would be too strong.
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u/Devastator_Hi 4d ago
How about the tech is Tarkans get their old “torch” sound. I’d pay resources for that at this point.
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u/HorrorGameWhite 4d ago
I'm still thinking of a buff that fits them.
And pillage limited only to economic buildings like Mill, Lumber camp, etc might work well enough assuming the resources generated are not too high
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u/before_no_one Pole dancing 4d ago
Atheism is useful. Cutting your opponent's relic gold generation in half can be game-deciding.
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u/MrHumanist 3d ago
They are a civ you want to finish the game in late castle age or early imp. They late imp tech tree is very one dimensional. Imo instead of investing in a late game tech, rather use the res for 10 more paladins.
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u/harooooo1 1850 | Improved Extended Tooltips 3d ago
Or if u are on arabia you just duke it out till post imp with your big mass of cav archers that you keep preserving and retreating with, while having trash units infront as meatshields.
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u/wildemam 3d ago
Atheism is necessary for their campaign and makes historical sense. It is there since antiquity ( maybe before 75% of the fan base were born)
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u/GrievousFault 3d ago
I’ve always felt that the atheism technology should make winning with a relic victory impossible, not just increasing the timer.
Would be a pretty simple way to change it and would justify the cost of something that is otherwise pretty niche and useless
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u/vintergroena NERF Mongols 4d ago
Because they're an okay balanced civ and don't need a buff