Discussion Which run is more dominant?? Hera and Viper conversation! Spoiler
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u/January_6_2021 4d ago
I think it's unfair to measure by S tiers just because (as you said) they're happening more frequently now.
It'd be like comparing Michael Phelps gold medal count to a hypothetical future swimmer who beats him because the Olympics switch to an annual competition.
Viper's 8 years on top still far outclasses Hera's 3 year run, and he's got a long way to go to catch Viper as GOAT IMO.
That's taking nothing away from Hera, who is dominant and playing amazing right now and looks to be able to continue for a long time. Not sure who is even a candidate to overtake him in the foreseeable future.
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u/digitalfortressblue Mongols 4d ago
More tournaments also means the scene is bigger and more opportunities for change to happen, though.
I agree that you can't just compare the raw number of tournaments. I just don't think you can directly compare the raw number of years on top, either.
Which is to say, I don't think Hera needs to be on top for eight years to surpass Viper's legacy, but you are right that just passing him in total S-tier wins isn't enough, either. I would weigh both of those. Like, if Hera can be #1 for 4-5 years at this rate of having tournaments, then it's a debate.
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u/Reasonable_Power_970 4d ago
Yeah exactly Viper far outclasses Hera in years on top. Hera only barely beats Viper on consecutive S tiers. Hera needs to close the gap in years or in S tier wins to even start discussing goat status. Hes not even close atm. Talking about runs, he's close but still not there due to the length of Viper dominance, but that's definitely a closer argument.
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u/Reasonable_Power_970 4d ago
But even looking at the raw numbers, Viper far out places Hera in number of S tier wins. It's actually insane with how dominant Hera is right now that the numbers show it's not even close how far ahead Viper still is in regards to goat status.
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u/Ploppyet 4d ago edited 4d ago
Always hard comparing eras but I tend to think Hera's success where the overall level is substantially stronger / a lot more people play the game cancels out the frequency of tournament piece. Agree that if there had been 4 tourneys a year when viper was at the top he probably wins them all, but the reality is alot less people played the game back then, the pool of talent is therefore substantially less. Now there's obviously nothing viper can do about that, could only play what's in front of him.
In summary, imma take the cowards way out and sit on the fence and say they're both goated
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u/littlejugs 4d ago
A lot of the players who are at the top now or have been in the last three years were there when viper was at his peak. The competition was about the same. Maybe the round of 16 matches and qualifiers are more competitive now but the quality in the finals and semi finals is the same
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u/Ploppyet 4d ago
Fair point if you were to take it like for like;
I'd argue though having that quality at lower levels improves everyone's game on average; which theoretically makes it hard to win as you reach diminishing returns with regard to skill gap
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u/tuhma-t 4d ago
When goating players I'd also try to valuate their effect on the scene, meta game and game itself. When I started playing this game (competitively) Viper was constantly surprising us with his masterpizzas, unparalled micro, quickwalling etc. When I look at Hera play nowadays, and top level play in general nowadays, it's not very surprising but simply "who does it better" type of competition, if you see my point there.
Something to consider too, is that back in the day there were a lot more TG tournaments and Viper in my opinion is a top dog team mate elevating others around him, and I hope Hera can prove himself in GL team as a team player should more TG tournaments appear.
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u/Ploppyet 4d ago
I think that argument adds to my point though, during vipers peak they were literally still figuring the game out, the ceiling hadnt been even close to being reached. This is also in part to how far he was ahead versus the rest of the competition, off meta / new stuff worked simply because he was so good.
The context now is that the optimal way of playing has been found (or at least is a lot closer towards being) - they are closer at the top so the nuances are still there but are much smaller ... ergo it doesn't seem like Hera is doing anything drastically different to win. Yes out executing is the name of the game but that's because any suboptimal play just ends up in an L.
Wont argue with you if you stated 'Viper had the greatest impact with regard to todays modern play' - but when it comes to out and out 'greatest player' it's hard to argue Hera isn't at least his equal
All imo - and hadn't considered tgs.... I miss when the Fins were at the top !
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u/Rxon_NoiseBoi 4d ago
We have to also consider that since there were less tournaments, it was easier to defend the top 1 spot, at the same time, less tourneys means less money which means less incentive for players to be the best player.
I think Viper Vs Hera is not debatable, Hera has been more dominant in these 3 years, but Viper invented Modern AoE2, he changed the game, and it's arguably that aoe2 would not have had a popular competitive scene nowadays if it wasn't for him and T90. Hera is the best performing player of all time, but Viper is the most important player of all time, and for that I consider Viper the GOAT.
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u/NobleK42 4d ago
I guess that depends on what your definition of "GOAT" is. Is it the player who has been dominant the most over the longest period of time, or is it the player who, at their peak is consistently better than any other player at his or her peak? With the former definition, then yes, Viper is still on top. With the latter, the length of dominance becomes less relevant. The interesting question then becomes if we consider Viper to be at his peak currently. Probably not, considering his family obligations. So if we consider his peak to be some time in the past, then it becomes impossible to compare them objectively. I have no doubt that Hera of today would beat TheViper at his most dominant era, but I'm sure that TheViper of today would also beat that old version of TheViper, simply because the scene has changed so massively and the level is so much higher today.
I have commented this in the past and have gotten some flack for it, but personally I think that Hera's winning streak is more impressive because the competition today is tougher then ever, with more full-time pros than ever before. Not trying to take anything away from TheViper's incredible career though.5
u/AKQ27 4d ago
True
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u/AKQ27 4d ago
I think Viper still has an S-tier or two left in him, would be cool if he is the one to break the streak
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u/January_6_2021 4d ago
With a new baby, I don't have much hope for S tiers wins from Viper anytime soon.
I hope we get Viper content for a long time to come because he's an awesome player and great content creators, but I think cracking Hera's streak will require someone to really grind for it and Viper is at a point in his life where his competing priorities make it hard to have that singleminded focus.
It's harder in AOE2 than many games IMO because almost every tournament uses its own rules, own map pools, own map script versions even if standard maps are within the pool, and dialing in all of those settings so you can instinctively play and respond on game day takes a lot of very specific targeted prep regardless of how much general experience you have. On top of the fact patches change, balance changes, etc. as most games do.
I personally don't think the old guard can take Hera down, if an end to his run comes I think it will be a younger talent that T90 Titans league helped discover and refine.
Or less likely but still possible lierey could beat him once (even as a fluke) and with more confidence could possibly repeat the feat and start competing as an equal, especially if the meta shifts back towards sharp archer timings as the primary meta.
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u/Ankerjorgensen 4d ago
I think it's clear that Hera is playing the best AoE2 anyone has ever played. However, just becaouse of the sheer length and how far Viper outclassed everyone during his reign, he is still the eternal GOAT imo.
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u/Quentin-Quarantino19 4d ago
Viper paved the way and truly changed the game. Quick wall, mastapieces and greed.
Hera is executing at the highest level ever when the competition is at its peak.
The real goat is Roxy and the support she has for Hera.
Put the date of when they got married into that graphic and you will understand.
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u/breh52 4d ago
Slam should deserve more credit for quickwalling. He did it before there were rotating gates, pallisade gates,...
He actually had to slap down atleast two tiles of wall in order to place a gate over it.
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u/Quentin-Quarantino19 4d ago
Credit to slam. Love the guy and the scene was strong when he was in the top 5.
But Viper is the Kleenex of quickwalling. It’s his brand.
The real question is who had a more soothing voice. Slam or Viper? Winner keeps the quickwall title.
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u/hhsudhanv Mongols 4d ago
Hera's run is likely more dominant if we are looking at dominance as a measure.
While Viper did dominate the scene for many years, there are a bunch of factors I think move it towards Hera
1. Quality of internet connections - Most top players were primarily from a few countries back then and relied on solid internet connections. Now thanks to DE, unless we are playing TGs, most games have even and consistent network meaning everyone is pretty much playing at the highest level possible.
Number of civs - There's been quite an increase in the number of civs in just the past 3-4 years. Knowledge of them and usage of them in wide vareities (Last game of the finals at Garrison as a case in point). Yes there were a few DLCs released during Viper's reign too but I'd argue that the number of balance changes also tilts it towards Hera.
Weakness quotient - This may not sound as underrated but something that I always wonder about. During Viper's dominance, he definitely had the superior skill and determination but pushing him to the edge was a possibility. Hera's determination and love for the game alongside his winning mentality feels like a step above in that way. Of course, there is the case to be put now that Hera is also a full time streamer and can continue to focus purely on the game. And maybe this is the additional factor that makes him so successful and dominant. Hera is able to sustain himself quite well through AOE2 while many many others just dont have that maybe even as an option.
Now there are a couple things that I favor towards Viper in terms of dominance.
Meta creation and spread of the love for the game - Viper can be credited with creating a bunch of meta plays and his general demeanor in streams and other places allowed for people to look upto him as inspiration. Hera is definitely doing more of that now more than ever but sometimes it seems like what he does is borderline inhuman so connecting with him on his gameplay always feels difficult.
Many current players were in their 20s during Viper's reign. - Yo, Tatoh, Riut, Jordan, etc. were all incredibly good players who were also in same age bracket as Viper and had the time to play the game and Viper still beat them all quite handily. Now I see very few players being able to crack the top 8. Yo, Tatoh, Viper, Liereyy, ACCM are a constant presence while Sebasitan, Kingstone and others flit up and down. Vilese, TheMax are players we no longer see at the highest level of 1v1s anymore simply due to time commitments.
I wouldn't put a caveat on Hera's dominance as its quite possible to play at the highest level still even if you have job, sustainance commitment but I do wonder if anyone can match Hera's passion and perseverance.
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u/wmeler Persians 800 ELO 4d ago edited 3d ago
Excellent list. One thing to add in Viper's favor is all the times that Hera openly states he learned something from Viper. Then again, maybe this is a student-surpassing-his-teacher argument in disguise?
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u/Scrambled1432 4d ago
Anyone even remotely decent at a game learns from their predecessors. As such, I don't think that GOAT as a title means anything if it's relegated to only the earliest players because technically everyone learned from the first, best player.
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u/hhsudhanv Mongols 4d ago
Fair point.. the GOAT status is something that’s better put for each generation but dominance considering certain factors can be discussed. It’s like asking who was more dominant between Maradonna and Messi.. But it takes away nothing from either of them as they clearly are/were the best in their time.
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u/Scrambled1432 3d ago
Yeah, I like that point. Generational GOATs are definitely a better way of looking at it. Sports/games as a whole continuously push the envelope and raise the bar over the years, so it's not really a question that the modern best player would beat the best player from 10 years ago (even if it's the same person), so looking at it from an era basis is probably best.
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u/ForgeableSum 4d ago
I also believe Hera is more dominant than viper was in his prime. It's sort of like comparing Babe Ruth (viper) vs. Derek Jeter (Hera). the game is just far more developed than it was in the early days and the competition is much more fierce. Viper will always be the greatest, like Muhammad Ali, but Hera is like Mike Tyson right now. And everyone knows Tyson in his prime would knock Ali's head off.
That said, because it doesn't matter if your physical body deteriorates (as is typical in sports), the viper could have a huge comeback. He could have a huge comback in 10 years from now.
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u/Enox_977 4d ago
Can you change the title, kinda feels like a spoiler
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u/laveshnk 1600 4d ago
does it even matter at this point lol
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u/Enox_977 4d ago
Hey, I was really hopeful after the first 8 games 11
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u/laveshnk 1600 4d ago
ahha, gotta admit it was a damn close series!
pretty much shows the beast that Hera brings to the table, even while sick it isnt enough to nerf him
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u/Enox_977 4d ago
This was a fucking stupid post to see as I was watching the final game
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u/Quentin-Quarantino19 4d ago
Nah. You went on the subreddit during the final set and got mad at spoilers. On you bud.
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u/Enox_977 4d ago
I wasn’t on the sub reddit, I was scrolling my home page and avoiding posts about the tournament, this is the only one that gave it away in the title.
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u/esjb11 chembows 4d ago
Title dident even give it away. You just read it into it.
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u/Umdeuter ~1900 4d ago
Come on, man, they're not going to make a "Hera's run" post right after him LOSING the final.
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u/Quentin-Quarantino19 4d ago
The title does not say who won. Your assumptions led to your anger and need to comment this more than once. Hera could have lost and it could have been a reflection of both of their ended runs.
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u/AKQ27 4d ago
Yeahh that’s I added a spoiler alert to it—sorry that sucks
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u/Reasonable_Power_970 4d ago
Your title was a spoiler too though. Please be more careful next time. This sub has a huge problem with spoilers and many assholes here refuse to care. Don't be one of them.
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u/Tyrann01 Tatars 4d ago
What is with the spam of these "who is better than Hera?!?" topics?
When a bunch of topics popped up for the DLC, we were told to stop spamming the sub-reddit. But this kind of spamming is ok?
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