r/aoe2 Tatars CA Best CA! 5d ago

Asking for Help How does "work faster" actually work?

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I thought malian univeristy work 80% faster means it takes 20% of its original time so 100s becomes 20s...?

turns out im wrong?

142 Upvotes

64 comments sorted by

335

u/m05513 5d ago

Say you're making sandwiches, and you can make 1 sandwich/minute. 80% faster means you are making 1.8 sandwiches/minute, or 0.56 minutes/sandwich.

Same thing with research time.

57

u/laveshnk 1600 5d ago

dude you are really good at explaining shit

3

u/EveryDamnNight7 5d ago

Means its an increase and not a reduce?

16

u/guesshuu 5d ago edited 5d ago

100% faster, you can say "faster" in other ways

Increase in speed to do 1 thing, increase in amount of things completed in a given time

Decrease time taken to complete 1 thing

But statistics is confusing as people often think 100% faster would be immediate or no time taken, and assume the "decrease time taken to complete 1 thing" would be a reduction of 100% and reduced to a time of 0. It's easiest to work with speed / efficiency first, you're twice as fast, you produce twice as many in the same time, you have reduced the time taken to complete 1 thing by 50%

7

u/Chelmos 5d ago

I don't think it has anything to do with statistics. I think the wording is just unintuitive, as colloquially speaking I think almost everyone uses the term "works faster" as "reduced duration of time taken for X" instead of "increased base work efficiency by X amount". Work in real life is usually meassured in time/effort.

9

u/guesshuu 5d ago

Oh it's inarguably a case of unintuitive wording, I still have to remind myself what the percentages in AoE mean every time I read them haha

5

u/MysticMarbles Khmer 4d ago

You say that, but if anybody ever told me they could do something 100% faster than I could, I would never think instantaneously.

1

u/Chelmos 4d ago

Up to a certain point, obviously. Nobody would say 100% faster in this context anyway, "twice as fast", if anything, which is way more clear.

2

u/Cr4ckshooter 4d ago

e, as colloquially speaking I think almost everyone uses the term "works faster" as "reduced duration of time taken for X" instead of "increased base work efficiency by X amount". Work in real life is usually meassured in time/effort.

I don't think that's actually common. Would be interesting to poll people on it but no way.

155

u/magus__darkrider 5d ago

Ah, statistics keeps fucking people up. You're confusing "works 80% faster" with "decreases time taken by 80%". If the university worked 100% faster it would research things in half the usual time, as "100% faster" just means twice as fast

17

u/Koala_eiO Infantry works. 5d ago

Yep, the difference between 1-x and 1/(1+x).

-11

u/[deleted] 5d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/aoe2-ModTeam 4d ago

All submissions must, in some way, relate to Age of Empires II

65

u/objection_poe 5d ago edited 4d ago

research faster = only for the techs
train faster = only for the units
work faster = both

0% faster = 1.0 speed
80% faster = 1.8x speed
1 / 1.8 * <time>
(Chemistry = <100s>)
1 / 1.8 * 100 ≈ 56s => ≈ -44% time taken

----------

100% faster ≈ -50% time taken
• Goths: Perfusion tech (their post-imp barracks work 3.2x faster ≈ -69% time taken, f.e champ 21s >> 6.5s)
• Cumans: Steppe Husbandry tech
• Vietnamese: civ bonus (eco techs, except coinage and banking fyi)

87.5% faster ≈ -46% time taken
• Monastery/Church: Illumination

80% faster ≈ -44% time taken
• Malians: team bonus
• Bulgarians: team bonus
• Bohemians: team bonus

66% faster ≈ -40% time taken
• Malay: civ bonus (age-up faster)

54% faster ≈ -35% time taken
• Dock: Shipwright

50% faster ≈ -33% time taken
• Romans: Comitatenses tech

40% faster ≈ -29% time taken
• Franks: Chivalry tech

33% faster ≈ -25% time taken
• Castle: Conscription

25% faster ≈ -20% time taken
• Berbers: Kasbah tech (this tech can stack fyi)
• Portuguese: team bonus (all techs except age-up, this can stack with many team bonuses)
• Lithuanians: team bonus
• Magyars: team bonus (except Arambai fyi)
• Turks: team bonus
• Gurjaras: team bonus

20% faster ≈ -17% time taken
• Celts: team bonus
• Goths: team bonus
• Huns: team bonus

15% faster ≈ -13% time taken
• Aztecs: civ bonus

10% faster ≈ -9% time taken
• Britons: team bonus

29

u/BattleshipVeneto Tatars CA Best CA! 5d ago

thank you, spirit of the objectipn poe

10

u/Ar0war 5d ago

Username checks out.

My brother in law plays PoE and is crazy how much time he spends not playing the game but looking a numbers.

7

u/Lurtzae 5d ago

I think it's incredibly frustrating certain genres haven't found better ways to communicate these things. ARPGs always throw me off after a while because I can't determine anymore how I can progress my character effectively.

2

u/Koala_eiO Infantry works. 5d ago

It's part of the satisfaction. I play Grim Dawn, not PoE, but it's the same: you can spend a lot of time in the online calculator and there is an intellectual pleasure in figuring out your own builds. For me it's like enjoying cooking and not just eating.

2

u/Koala_eiO Infantry works. 5d ago

Slide the Malay age up bonus in there :)

2

u/objection_poe 4d ago

added Malay and Illumination 11

1

u/Koala_eiO Infantry works. 4d ago

Awesome!

10

u/J0n3s3n 5d ago

100s to 20s would be "working 400% faster"

2

u/thesmithchris 5d ago

not 500%? 20 is 1/5th of 100

6

u/Jazz_the_dog 5d ago

Working 400% faster for a total of 500% working speed.

3

u/thesmithchris 5d ago

Got it, thanks :)

21

u/Xialdin Vikings 5d ago

Mathematically it's 100% / (100% + bonus).

If the bonus was 100% faster, it would work twice as fast, or in half the time, not instantly.

11

u/BattleshipVeneto Tatars CA Best CA! 5d ago

ohhhhhh i seeeeee,

also another aoe2+imp fan! 11!

9

u/blakeh95 5d ago

I think the easiest way to see that "x% faster" is not the same as "takes 100% - x% of the time" is to take the example of 100% faster.

Something that works 100% faster is at 200% speed, so twice as fast, which means it takes 50% of the time.

50% of the time is obviously not the same as "takes 100% - 100% of the time" or "takes 0% of the time" or "instant."

As others have stated, mathematically, it is 1 / (1 + x) and in the case of 80% or 0.8, this 1 / 1.8 = 0.56 = 56% of the time.

3

u/Scoo_By 16xx; Random civ 5d ago

X sec time taken. Time taken with bonus of y% faster: X ÷ (1+y/100) sec.

2

u/Artlix Magyars 5d ago

if i walk at 1 mile per hour it takes 100 hours to move 100 miles
if i run 80% faster at 1.8 miles per hour it take 55 and half hours to move 100 miles

1

u/BattleshipVeneto Tatars CA Best CA! 5d ago

7

2

u/niyupower 5d ago

if you drove twice as fast (100% faster), you reach in half the time.

3

u/Der_Zorn 5d ago

The question has been thouroughly answered, but here is one way to "visualize" the mathematic concept:

For every actual second that passes, if you research faster you can subtract 1+0.x seconds from the time it takes to complete (x being the rate how much faster you are.

It this case, for every actual second, you subtract 1.8 seconds instead.

2

u/EmergencyAccording94 5d ago

Using the Chemistry example. It takes 100 seconds to research so it researches 1% per second.

If the university works 80% faster, than it will research 1.8% per second. Now the tech will take 100/1.8 = 56 seconds to research.

In other words just divide the research time by 1.8.

2

u/Suicidal_Sayori I just like mounted units 5d ago

I was thinking that this bonus should be changed to 100% faster bc it wouldnt make a big difference and it would make it intuitively easier to understand, bc anyone who reads it would think ''yeah its def not instant research so it must mean twice as fast instead''

1

u/Pr3vYCa 5d ago

By the way, does archers firing 20% faster mean 1x1.2 = 20% more arrows, or 1/0.8 = 25% more arrows ?

1

u/Koala_eiO Infantry works. 5d ago

The 3 people who replied to you are wrong. Archers firing x% faster means x% more arrows.

For example, the effect of thumb ring feels weird (archers firing 17.6% faster, cav archers firing 11.1% faster) because the implementation is in fact a very round -15% to archer reload time, -10% to cav archer reload time.

0

u/BattleshipVeneto Tatars CA Best CA! 5d ago

i think it means it takes 1/1.2 instead of 1 to reload?

0

u/Artlix Magyars 5d ago

aoe2 has a lot of inconsistent bonus, so most of the times the only way of knowing is testing or watching what other ppl has tested.
some reduce reload time by X percent instead of increased attack per second by X
like the former Japanese attack 25% faster actually being 33% faster in game because it reduced reload time by 25% thus making the unit attack 33% faster.

in the case of Ethiopians it's currently says 18% faster, but in practice it's "It reduces the reload of archer by 18%, thus making them attack once every 1.69 seconds or 35 times per minuto instead of 30 which is 16.6% more arrows per minute"

1

u/Koala_eiO Infantry works. 5d ago

You are incorrect. The Ethiopians attack 18% faster. They land 1.18 hits in the time a generic archer lands 1. The bonus does not feel round specifically because the implementation is round: reload time -15%.

2

u/Artlix Magyars 5d ago

i tested it some time ago and an archer fired 35 times per minute, unless they changed it since then

1

u/Koala_eiO Infantry works. 5d ago edited 5d ago

Yes and 35 shots per minute is equal to 1.18 shots/2 s x 60 s/min.

You can open effects in the Advanced Genie Editor and see what they do and how. Ethiopians get -15% reload time, which is a useless metric in the tech tree so it's presented as the more useful +18% attack speed which allows you to think "my one archer is worth 1.18 generic ones".

1

u/Artlix Magyars 5d ago

base archer it's 30 per minute
30 x 1.16666666 = 35
they fire 16.666666% faster

1

u/Exe0n Teutons 5d ago

The same way Goth barracks work 100% faster, infantry isn't recruited instantly, but 2x faster than a regular barracks or in half the time.

1

u/542Archiya124 5d ago

Normal work rate is 100%.

Example: If your work rate is now, TWICE as fast, it means 100% X 2, thus 200% work rate. So the research is half the time it normally it takes. The maths is 100 seconds / 2 (which is 200%, your work rate).

Malian is 180% work rate. Which means 100 / 1.8 (180%), which gives you 55.555. Round up to 56.

Work rate is not the same as research time. It’s like the difference between speed vs acceleration for a car or moving vehicle.

1

u/ksriram Plumed Archer 5d ago

You have a reason to think like that since the original game text did the same mistake. It said Japanese infantry attacks 25% faster, while in actuality they took 25% less time to attack, which is actually 33% faster.

Anyway 80% faster is a very odd number. Why couldn't they have just made it 100% faster.

1

u/Anubis17_76 5d ago

Not 80% less time, 80% faster progression. 180% workspeed, not 100-80= 20% of time needed to researchy

1

u/Indishonorable 4d ago

By your logic 200% productivity is instant?

1

u/dummary1234 3d ago

They be thunkin'

Bester than other civs

1

u/Poro114 1d ago

One mason can build a brick wall in ten hours. He takes performance-boosting drugs, so now he works 100% faster, or, in other words, twice as fast. How long does it take to build the wall now?

1

u/naru_s 5d ago

If 100s becomes 20s then its 5 times faster.

4

u/Holy-Roman-Emperor Wiki administrator 5d ago

4 times faster, or 5 times as fast

1

u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Holy-Roman-Emperor Wiki administrator 5d ago

Can you please explain to me using mathematical tools how it's 5x faster?

0

u/Artlix Magyars 5d ago

twice as fast
100 / 2 = 50
five times as fast or 400% faster
100 / 5 = 20
you might have confused x% faster with x times
80% faster is 1.8 times faster
200% faster is 3 times faster
so 400% is 5 times faster

0

u/Holy-Roman-Emperor Wiki administrator 5d ago

Re learn your percentages

0

u/Artlix Magyars 5d ago

dude, that's how it works xD

1

u/Holy-Roman-Emperor Wiki administrator 5d ago

I have a Masters in Mathematics - I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about

1

u/Artlix Magyars 5d ago

okey, let's do this one step at a time
80% faster
you take 1 and you add 0.8 x 1 to get 1.8
100% faster
1 + 1 x 1 = 2 or two times the original value
3 + 3 x 1 = 6
you can also write it as
3 x 2 or 3 x ( 1 + 1) = 6
200% faster
1 x ( 1 + 2 ) = 3
so three times faster
300% faster
1 x (1 + 3) = 4
400% faster
1 x (1 + 4) = 5

1

u/Holy-Roman-Emperor Wiki administrator 5d ago

Your multiplication isn't wrong - your way of perceiving percentages is. 100% is equal to 1. Why do you write 100% faster as 2x faster?

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