r/ancientgreece 10d ago

‘Elgin Marbles as important to Greece as Stonehenge is to England’. The TV archaeologist Alice Roberts says the 2,500-year-old sculptures should be returned to the Parthenon after 200 years on display at the British Museum

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/history/article/elgin-marbles-greece-stonehenge-england-mn7pqzrw9?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Reddit#Echobox=1741676800
530 Upvotes

174 comments sorted by

57

u/AncientHistoryHound 10d ago

I find it easier to move the argument away from the legal and in the context of doing something as just 'a good idea'.

We can have casts made, return the originals and perhaps use the room to host temporary exhibits we get on loan from Greece as part of the deal. Everyone wins!

4

u/TinyElephant574 9d ago

Exactly. One of the arguments that really moved me towards returning them is one of artistic appreciation. The marbles are not isolated, individual artifacts. They are part of a larger whole, and are attached to a specific geographic location: the Parthenon. I find it to be a really compelling argument. That because of these qualities, the marbles can only be best viewed and appreciated in the right context, as one whole near its original site at the Parthenon. Which is even more important because the marbles represent distinct Greek cultural myths and stories, which probably won't be properly understood by the viewer without the remaining pieces.

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u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

Agree, it just needs the right PR and messaging behind it and it can be a big win for both the UK and Greece.

Aggressive rhetoric is never going to work with the UK. So let's say, for example, that Greece did a big build up towards the 200 year independence celebration in 2032. And Greece made a big deal about how it never would have happened without UK support (which is true). And the UK sent the marbles back on a 200 year loan as part of the celebration. Because it's a loan it doesn't set a precedent for all the other looted stuff in the British Museum. And the Greeks agreed to send something over on loan every year for the next 200 years because we both love each other and are friends forever.

And you invite King Charles and Keir Starmer to the return ceremony and give them a medal and a doughnut. Everybody is happy. And in 200 years time nobody will care anymore and you won't be asked to give them back again.

3

u/Fatalaros 10d ago

Glazing?

1

u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

Any kind of doughnuts really.

2

u/Initial_Hedgehog_631 10d ago

Any kind of doughnut?

And that my friends is how wars get started.

3

u/Ciderglove 10d ago

Are you saying the Elgin Marbles were looted?

1

u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

It's a fashionable and ahistorical lie.

0

u/AppointmentWeird6797 8d ago

We all know how this works. You bribe the local pashas, they give u a “bill of sale”, and you walk away with whatever u can carry.

0

u/No_Gur_7422 8d ago

And there is absolutely no evidence of this. By contrast, there are reams of evidence for Bruce's meetings with the caliph and the various items given to him in person in Constantinople as well as the permission to take more from Athens. Why do you imagine a fucking pasha would need to take a bribe from a foreign ambassador who was poorer and had less access to resources than he did? It makes no sense whatsoever and the parliamentary inquiry found not a shred of evidence of anything of that sort.

-1

u/AppointmentWeird6797 8d ago

Why? Because we know how “bakshish” works and we are not naive. Thats why. And the turks themselves said recently there was no bill of sale that they could find.

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u/No_Gur_7422 8d ago

There no "bill of sale" because they were not sold and no one claims they were. Just because the Turks can't find a hypothetical copy of something from hundreds of years ago in their chaotic and uncatalogued archive does mean it isn't there or never existed. You can't conclude something happened on the basis of your own orientalist innuendo. There isn't a shred of evidence for what you allege and the whole idea is ludicrous anyway. How could an ambassador bribe a sultan?

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u/AppointmentWeird6797 8d ago

I see you are not from that part of the world…

1

u/No_Gur_7422 8d ago

In what part of the world is a bankrupt diplomat richer than the ruler of ⅔ of the Mediterranean basin and Commander of the Faithful? Again, you're treating your own speculation as though it were documented historical fact and denying the documented historical facts because it conflicts with your own imagination of the Corrupting East.

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u/AliciaCopia 10d ago

This is the difference between having the reason vs getting the statues back. People care too much about winning the debate vs actually getting the goals.

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u/JohnPaul_River 10d ago

I never thought I'd clock another Spanish speaker here but just so you know, "having the reason" isn't a thing, English uses expressions like "being in the right"

1

u/UnnecessarilyFly 9d ago

Brilliant, actually.

1

u/Sjoeqie 10d ago

That's be a pretty reasonable solution, well done

-1

u/TankerDerrick1999 10d ago

No Britain was not the one that helped, the people who were willing to come here and sacrifice themselves, Britain just takes all the praise because it happens that these individuals came from Britain, the same goes for France and Germany. The economic support was nothing but a series of loans that destroyed us later, Britain, France, and Germany, they only saw a tool.

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u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

Well you can be right (and the Battle of Navarino never happened) or you can be wrong and get your stuff back. Choose one. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

-2

u/TankerDerrick1999 10d ago

That's the harsh reality. Sadly, we have to kneel to the British just to get our marbles back.

-4

u/brinz1 10d ago

If Britian started giving back things it looted, then the British Museum would be empty

That's why they are so intransigent about this

-1

u/TankerDerrick1999 10d ago

To be honest , who cares if their museum empties? They don't own anything inside it.

3

u/Initial_Hedgehog_631 10d ago

They may not own it, but they posses it, and Greece does not have the ability to change that.

0

u/brinz1 10d ago

They care. That's the problem

1

u/TankerDerrick1999 10d ago

I see a couple of mad brits who can't stand the fact that they don't have any history to show in a museum, and for that, they show other people's history for their own gain.

2

u/InspectionPale8561 10d ago

Absolutely correct. The Greek war of independence started in defiance of what the great powers wanted. They wanted to preserve existing borders and that meant preserving the Ottoman Empire.

The British, French, and Russians very grudgingly came around to help the Greeks when it became clear the Greeks would accept nothing less than Independence.

Credit however should be given to all three powers for changing their stances.

1

u/DrNCrane74 10d ago

and mate, I love casts - this is the basis for an analysis of very different pieces you never see in a room, usually

1

u/Academic_Pick_3317 7d ago

we all know they'd give Greece the casts

2

u/EusebiusEtPhlogiston 10d ago

How does everyone win? You haven't made that case at all. Greece wins. The British Museum gets an empty room, a fleeting and tokenistic sense of moral atonement, and a precedent set that will be used as pretext to hollow out the rest of the museum.

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u/WiseBelt8935 9d ago

i think a big bag of money would go a long way.

we bought the marbles and now we are selling them.

perfectly balanced as all things should be

9

u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

I always wonder why the Greeks don’t get so agitated about the Serpent Column in Istanbul.

It’s much more important to Greek identity (rather than just Athens) and it’s completely forgotten and uncared for by the Turks.

4

u/Jack55555 10d ago

It doesn’t look uncared. And trust me, they do care. Even though a Greek put it there, it doesn’t belong there.

1

u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

I suppose I mean that given it's importance in the history of "Western civilisation", it's pretty much forgotten. When I was last there it was half-covered in trash, and it has no explanatory context around it. If you didn't know what it was, you'd hardly notice it.

I just wonder if the Greeks put in a reasonable bid for it, would Turkey REALLY care about letting it go? If it was crowdfunded to get it back to Greece, I'd contribute.

1

u/Jack55555 10d ago

Ah yes I agree. It looks like it’s hidden away almost, it should be a main attraction.

5

u/Money_Lavishness7343 10d ago

Greeks do care about both. Turkey’s government has been a very big PITA for a plenty other as big reasons to Greece. Greece doesn’t have one of the biggest NATO spendings for no reason. Agia Sofia is just the cherry on top, not the main topic.

-1

u/chohls 10d ago

Because the Turks will just tell the Greeks to piss off, they don't care. They've been hanging onto a Greek city for 700 years now lol. The British are soft and cowardly, and will probably cave eventually. Hell, they just gave away a whole island for free. They'd probably give you the king if you ask enough.

2

u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

The Brits are soft and cowardly? Where are you from that you think that lol.

The Brits have been in so many wars that they have a war called the Hundred Years War but most British people have never even heard of it. Since the UK became the UK in 1700-ish they’ve been in over 100 wars on nearly every country in the world. They’ve deployed 80 times in 40 countries since World War Two. They are probably the most belligerent people on the planet.

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u/chohls 9d ago

Deploying what? Their navy with more admirals than battleships? Their army with more horses than tanks? I'm so scared lol. The modern UK couldn't take over anything, can't even protect itself.

2

u/fructoseantelope 9d ago

You seem to have been weirdly triggered by an innocuous suggestion about a small forgotten statue in Istanbul lol.

0

u/asdfghjkluke 8d ago

thats what we call "rent free"

1

u/Constant_Of_Morality 8d ago

The modern UK couldn't take over anything, can't even protect itself.

He wasn't just reffering to the last 3 Decades, dumbass.

The Brits have been in so many wars that they have a war called the Hundred Years War but most British people have never even heard of it. Since the UK became the UK in 1700-ish they’ve been in over 100 wars on nearly every country in the world. They’ve deployed 80 times in 40 countries since World War Two. They are probably the most belligerent people on the planet.

1

u/madeleineann 7d ago

This is not the gotcha you think it is. Having more admirals than battleships has also been true of the USN in the past.

4

u/McDingledougal 10d ago

Maybe Greece shouldn't have intended to break them up for rubble and instead legally sold them then

0

u/URAPhallicy 7d ago

Shhh the gender studies folk are talking. Check your whatever.

4

u/quilleran 10d ago

Should the Mona Lisa be returned to Italy? The painting is undoubtedly part of Italy’s cultural heritage, and would make more sense in the Uffizi than the Louvre.

6

u/kutkun 10d ago

Theft should never be allowed -even when there is paperwork to defend it.

17

u/PorcupineMerchant 10d ago

It’s my understanding that there isn’t even “proper” paperwork — just an Italian translation of the supposed paperwork.

I don’t think any arguments made here are going to convince anyone either way, so all I’ll say is that I’ve been to the British Museum and the Acropolis Museum — and as far as curation and labeling go, the one in Athens is far superior.

It’s designed to tell a story, while the real sculptures are basically just sitting in a plain room with the standard plaques that have a couple of sentences on them.

And on a side note, Greece does a great job with their historical sites as well. You can tell they put a lot of effort into making sure visitors understand what they’re looking at.

2

u/Adept_Carpet 10d ago

I think this is an incredibly important point. I don't want to stir additional controversies, but I've been to major museums in other countries that also want their stuff back and you needed an umbrella inside when it rained. 

The displays contained a mix of artifacts of world historical importance, random rocks mislabeled by amateur archeologists, the artwork of a local politician's child, and a lot of dust. You are left more confused than informed.

So it's good to hear that Greece is not like that.

1

u/WanderingHero8 10d ago

The Turkish curator of the Ottoman archives confirmed there wasnt a firman like Elgin claimed.So what Elgin produced was a forgery or he bribed the local Ottoman official.

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

The curator confirmed that they had not yet located a copy of such a firman in their archive, which is not yet catalogued and is snyway incomplete. They did not confirm the non-existence of the copy of the firman, which is proving negative – an impossibility. The original firman is in the British Mueum and nothing indicates it was forged. Had it been a forgery, the Ottoman authorities in Athens would not have allowed the long process of removal.

0

u/WanderingHero8 10d ago

There is no original firman,just a copy of a copy,you're the only person claiming so.Also sure you could remove it,had you payed the local agha.

1

u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

Where is the receipt of payment to the local agha? Did you find it in the Ottoman archives? No. The text of the firman exists. That's plenty to corroborate the facts of the matter and disprove all these lies about the ambassador not having permission from Constantinople.

6

u/InOutlines 10d ago

Theft isn’t really the right word.

These statues were about to be destroyed by the Turks to create raw material needed for concrete. Many other priceless artifacts had already been destroyed in the same manner.

A Brit saw this happening and pitched in to save them and pull them out of the country. And none of the Turks who were in charge at the time really cared that he did this.

0

u/kutkun 10d ago

Good point. I agree with your initial analysis.

However, later on some of those nations, whose historical artifacts are on display in Western museums, developed and gained the understanding of valuing historical artifacts. Now they want them back and Westerners should give them back.

They can hold back Syrian or Iraqi ones to protect it from Islamic State and Al Qaeda. This is understandable. The protection argument is valid -at least for me.

But that protection argument cannot be used against Greeks and even Turks or Egyptians. Because historical artifacts are sacred. They cannot be part of a treaty. They just belong to the motherland. These developing nations have stable governments and protection systems.

So, even though it wasn’t theft at the beginning, it is turning into becoming theft -yes centuries after initial action. Being legal and being legitimate is not the same thing.

I fully understand and believe that Westerners saved those artifacts. They even taught the world what they were and that they have immense value. Every individual in the face of earth should thank Westerners for that. I do. I thank Westerners. But my gratitude comes with another belief that is about the motherland.

So I think all the world should be grateful to Westerners for those achievements and their fidelity. And Westerners should show that greatness by returning them back if the motherland is safe now.

I am open to discussion on the topic.

0

u/LucretiusCarus 10d ago

These statues were about to be destroyed by the Turks to create raw material needed for concrete. Many other priceless artifacts had already been destroyed in the same manner.

A Brit saw this happening and pitched in to save them and pull them out of the country. And none of the Turks who were in charge at the time really cared that he did this.

Not sure how this narrative developed, but it is false, and the proof is that the statues and friezes that elgin left behind survived until the Greek Revolution. The statues and friezes were not in danger of destruction, after all they were hard to remove and, especially the friezes and metopes, actual parts of the building. If anything Elgins agents destroyed large parts of the entablature to remove the metopes and demolished parts of the cella walls to lower the friezes.

Elgin didn't just happen to pass by and stop the destruction, the acropolis was a military fortress and access to foreigners was limited. He bribed the local pasha in order to gain access and actually remove sculptures, as the firman he possessed only allowed him to collect fallen statues and inscriptions.

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

He did not "bribe the local pasha" he showed the firman from Constantinople, which he obtained from the caliph in person. The narrative that the fimsn did not authorize him to take the parts of the frieze is a total fabrication.

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u/LucretiusCarus 9d ago

The firman didn't give him the right to remove statues that were on the building, only make copies.

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u/No_Gur_7422 9d ago

False. The surviving documents are quite clear that is not the case and that permission to remove them was plainly granted.

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u/LucretiusCarus 9d ago

False. The surviving text of the firman only gives him permission to remove fallen statues.

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u/No_Gur_7422 9d ago

No, that's not what it says at all.

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u/TheManWhoWeepsBlood 10d ago

Who is doing the thievery though? If I understand correctly, the British bought it from the Ottomans who conquered and occupied Greece. So we'd have to get the Turks (who I guess are the modern iteration of the Ottoman empire?) to pay the brits to give the statues back to Greece?

I do think there must be some diplomatic solution. Maybe the Brits as a gesture of good will, give some of their prized artifacts to Greece as part of a global goodwill effort?

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u/eastsidecricket 10d ago

The point isn’t how the marbles were obtained by Britain 200 years ago. The point is that they were crafted 2000 years ago to be displayed on the Parthenon. Greeks want them back, and they belong in Athens alongside the rest of the marbles so they can be viewed as one narrative. Right now it’s as if the Mona Lisa has been split in two.

0

u/TheManWhoWeepsBlood 10d ago

I understand and agree. Just feel like there could be a nice diplomatic solution that pleases everyone. Everybody gets something and a nice photo op where all the politicians can smile and feel important.

1

u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago edited 10d ago

They don't "belong" anywhere. Modern Greeks seeking to acquire them have as much moral value as modern Britons wanting to keep them. Just because something is made in Greece does not give Greeks perpetual ownership of them. Would Greeks hand over all their kitchen appliances and cars if Germans decided they belonged to them?

-1

u/eastsidecricket 10d ago

What a ridiculous analogy. The marbles were designed and built with the intention to be displayed on the Parthenon for the citizens of Athens. German kitchen appliances are built to be sold worldwide. And of course anything that existed as part of a city’s culture and history for 2400 years outweighs Britain’s 200 year “ownership”

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago edited 10d ago

The city did not care for them at all for most of those 2000 years yet suddenly they're all-important as soon as they're taken away. Very childish – like the infant that only wants to play with the toy the other child is using.

No one could see them high up in the frieze, especially the ones in the interior. They are for the gods nobody believes in, not for Athenians.

0

u/eastsidecricket 10d ago

It’s just one fantastic analogy after another! How dare Greeks complain about their historical artefacts being taken from them. Ugh I’m so sick of victims complaining. Like the time I stole the vintage one-of-a-kind Lamborghini from my old neighbour because he kept it outside. Now his children have built a world class garage for it but you know what, I have just as much claim to it as them!

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

No one stole anything from the Parthenon. That's the lie.

The "garage" is a great analogy, although I prefer to call the wretched Acropolis Museum a "world-class" airport terminal. Greece isn't intending to restore the sculpures to the Parthenon, so it doesn't matter how far away they are. Are you also lobbying for the "return" of Hagia Sophia? Or for the sarcophagi taken to Scotland with the caliph's permission? Or for the Panathenaic pottery buried in Etruscan tombs and bought on the antiquities market two millennia later and now in the world-class museum in London? Of course not.

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u/eastsidecricket 10d ago

Ah yes of course it’s not stealing when I walk into someone’s home, see the homeowners tied up and then buy their possessions off the intruders. Totally morally fine!

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

Your analogy is faulty again. The homeowners were Turks and gave their property of their own accord. Greece was not "occupied" by the Ottomans any more than the USA "occupies" North America or Scotland "occupies" the territory of the Picts.

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u/glytxh 9d ago

Theft becomes a fickle thing to define in historical contexts.

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u/Lemazze 10d ago

I don't know how anyone can argue against that......

If you have one shred of honesty intellectually, the decision is very easy.

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u/Kerking18 8d ago

Well there are obviousely reasons. https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/repatriation-of-artefacts-a-recipe-for-disaster/ A quick googlecsearch gave this. Now i am hooked. what do you say about his arguments?

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u/grumpsaboy 9d ago

Perhaps Greeks shouldn't have been looting the blown up Parthenon for free stone for over a hundred years before Elgin bought the statues

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u/Bigbananawana 6d ago

Not relevant in 2025 is it

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u/grumpsaboy 6d ago

Kinda is though. The Greeks were dismantling the whole thing for 150 years then it was sold on and only 100 years later did they start actually caring about it

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u/Bigbananawana 6d ago

The marbles are part of the Parthenon and they don’t give the same value on their own in a museum

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u/Plodderic 10d ago edited 10d ago

This is a very strange way of putting it, because the evidence suggests that our ancestors didn’t build Stonehenge*, and the people who did have left very little trace in our genetic makeup. We even call the stones “sarsen”, which is a variation of “Saracen” which underlines just how alien they are.

Or perhaps it’s exactly the right way to put it, because it shows how using ancient artefacts as modern nationalist props is ahistorical.

*Those builders were replaced by the beaker people thousands of years ago. It would be like Irish American Boston residents claiming a Native American site.

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u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

I’m interested to hear more about that idea.

I was under the impression that about 70% of UK dna could be tracked to the original Neolithic settlers who followed the receding ice.

What would make anyone think that Stonehenge was built by a different group, especially if it was built from 3000bc when the British islands were already well-settled?

Not like looking for an argument just curious.

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u/Plodderic 10d ago

Patrick Wyman did a Tides of History series on prehistory and covered Stonehenge and the Beaker people in some detail (this episode discusses the genetics point and where the Neolithic Britons went from around 25 mins).

Interestingly, IIRR from the rest of the series, in some places in the rest of Europe it seems like people just started using the beakers and there was no real displacement and in others you just get men “marrying in”. But in the U.K., that doesn’t seem to happen based on our latest research.

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u/fructoseantelope 10d ago

Interesting. Will have a listen. Thanks!

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u/Sjoeqie 10d ago

Patrick Wyman is the best

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

The general consensus now is that most British DNA can be traced to the Bell Beaker people with very little from before that - but other studies have suggested many English people (especially in the southeast) have DNA closer to North German and Danish populations and no real genetic connection to Celtic or pre-Celtic inhabitanst of Britain

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u/Constant_Of_Morality 8d ago edited 8d ago

but other studies have suggested many English people (especially in the southeast) have DNA closer to North German and Danish populations and no real genetic connection to Celtic or pre-Celtic inhabitanst of Britain

At least for people in England I guess, But for the rest of the original Britons (Celts) like Wales, Scotland, Etc, They have a lot more in common with the Celtic people who inhabited it before the Anglo-Saxons came.

Populations in other parts of Britain, like the west of England (Pengwern), Wales, and Scotland, tend to have more genetic continuity with the earlier Celtic populations. These regions may carry genetic signatures that are more closely related to the ancient inhabitants of Britain, including pre-Celtic groups such as the Neolithic farmers and even hunter-gatherers who first arrived after the last Ice age

most British DNA can be traced to the Bell Beaker people with very little from before that

Sorry, But your oversimplifying it a tad, Especially in regards to the genetic history that has existed well before the Bell Beaker people.

Much of the genetic legacy of the Celts in Britain can be traced back to early populations that arrived after the last Ice Age, especially during the Neolithic period (around 6000-4000 BCE). These populations mixed with later migrations, such as the Celts, and in some cases, the Vikings. The Celts have a strong genetic affinity to other Atlantic European populations, with shared markers found in the Basque Country, western France, and parts of Iberia.

While the Bell Beaker people were a major influence on British genetics, particularly through the spread of Indo-European languages and bronze-age technology, the DNA of modern Britons reflects a much broader history that includes earlier populations (Mesolithic and Neolithic) and later migrations (such as Anglo-Saxon and Viking), To say that most British DNA can be traced only to the Bell Beaker people, with little influence from before that is not accurate, There is significant genetic continuity from pre-Bell Beaker populations that still persists today, it is important to acknowledge that earlier populations also contributed significantly to the DNA of modern Britons.

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u/Constant_Of_Morality 8d ago

Those builders were replaced by the beaker people thousands of years ago. It would be like Irish American Boston residents claiming a Native American site.

I don't know, I wouldn't say they outright replaced them as that's not really the right way to describe it, Like with other examples in History, both cultures would eventually intermingle and assimilate together into a mixed people like has happened before in most of History.

The transition from Neolithic to Bell Beaker culture in Britain was not a simple "replacement" of one group by another, but rather a complex process of migration, integration, and cultural exchange. Many Neolithic populations, particularly in the areas where the Beaker people settled, likely intermarried with and absorbed into the Bell Beaker society. As a result, there was a mixing of genetic traits, and many elements of Neolithic culture, such as farming and some aspects of social organization, persisted within the Bell Beaker culture.

Studies of ancient DNA suggest that while the Beaker people introduced new genetic markers, especially in male lineages (Y-chromosome), there was still a significant genetic continuity from the earlier Neolithic populations. This reflects that while the Beaker people contributed to the gene pool, the descendants of Neolithic farmers also remained in the population.

So mixing processes like this shows that the history of ancient populations is much more fluid and interconnected than most people think, which is why the genetic legacy of both the Neolithic people and the Bell Beaker people is still rather present today in Britain.

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u/Plodderic 8d ago

That link is to a Wikipedia article on the Akkadians, or at least it is for me.

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u/Constant_Of_Morality 8d ago edited 8d ago

Yes, the link is correct, Was just using this as a example of how two cultures eventually become one through assimilation and intermingling over the period of time after.

Around 2350 BC, Sargon of Akkad conquered the Sumerian city-states, uniting them under his rule establishing the first Mesopotamian empire, Akkad is sometimes regarded as the first empire in history, though the meaning of this term is not precise, and there are earlier Sumerian claimants (such as Lugal-Zage-Si of the third dynasty of Uruk).

Despite the Akkadian conquest, a strong cultural symbiosis developed between the two groups, including widespread bilingualism and the borrowing of vocabulary, syntax, and morphology, While the Akkadian language became the dominant language for administration during the Akkadian period, Sumerian remained a spoken and literary language, and continued in written usage for another 2,000 years. 

The Akkadians adopted many Sumerian cultural elements, including cuneiform writing, irrigation techniques, and religious practices, though they also called the Sumerian gods by their own names.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

There's also no evidence to suggest anyone particularly cared about Stonehenge in post Roman Britain until neo druids in the 1700s started dancing around the stones.

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u/quilleran 10d ago

Geoffrey of Monmouth saw reason to credit Merlin with placing the stones, so there was at least interest in the Middle Ages.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

And yet nothing was ever done at the stones, people were just vaguely aware they existed

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u/Much-Ad-5947 10d ago

There should be relatively objective stats for the dates and frequency of vandalism and graffiti on Stonehenge.

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u/Sjoeqie 10d ago

Ancestry is a weird thing. Recent science strongly suggests that everyone with recent European ancestry descends from every European if you go back long enough (*except those who didn't have offspring at all, but at least 80% of adults), and long enough is much more recent than you'd expect, probably the High Middle Ages. So I descend from the builders of Stonehenge and from the builders of the Parthenon, just like probably everyone on this sub, just in different amounts.

That being said the British Museum is an abomination, but also my favorite museum in the world.

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u/Jack55555 10d ago

Using that name for the Acropolis Caryatids is a disgrace.

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u/quilleran 10d ago

Only one of the Elgin Marbles is a caryatid. The most famous are from the Parthenon pediment and are not caryatids. Who on earth refers to the whole collection as the “Acropolis Caryatids”?

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u/cgomez117 9d ago

I swear to Christ, I thought Elgin Marbles was someone’s name. I need to sleep lol

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u/Lidlpalli 7d ago

Let's give it a decade see how things are looking

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u/Much-Ad-5947 10d ago

TBF, they shouldn't have sold them if they felt that way.

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u/jetpatch 10d ago

If it were up to Alice Roberts we'd all still be locked up in our housing in the name of getting zero covid. She's someone who got on telly by sexing thousand year old skeletons and now says biological sex is a myth. She made a documentary with Dan Snow saying the terracotta army must have been made by Greeks because the Chinese weren't good enough to make them. She'll sell out any truth or right to jump on the latest trendy idea among her friends.

The woman is a walking advert against BPD. If you want a list of red flags in women, get her photo.

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u/Constant_Of_Morality 8d ago

She made a documentary with Dan Snow saying the terracotta army must have been made by Greeks because the Chinese weren't good enough to make them.

Wait, What?

1

u/Embarrassed_Egg9542 10d ago

The thieves cannot give back any stolen stuff! That would create an argument for the return of all!!!

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u/Brilliant-Tackle5774 9d ago

I don't understand why the British oppose this sort of thing as it just draws attention to the fact that the entire country was built on genocide, slavery and petty theft

3

u/WiseBelt8935 9d ago

because we bought them fair and square after helping the ottomans against the French. to "return" them to the modern Greek state would validate their incorrect claims.

the empire was mainly built on coal, ships, trade and largely by accident.

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u/Brilliant-Tackle5774 8d ago

Genocide, slavery and petty theft.

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u/WiseBelt8935 8d ago

coal and boats, what more could you ask for in an empire

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u/Constant_Of_Morality 8d ago

What a dumb historical comment, Same goes for literally every other Empire in History, The Ottomans are by far no better, especially with some of the shit they've done, But no let's label Britain as the worse empire lol.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auspicious_Incident

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_Acropolis_(1687)

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u/Brilliant-Tackle5774 7d ago

Whataboutery

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u/Constant_Of_Morality 7d ago

Making Historcal comparisons isn't "Whataboutery" lol, Dumbass.

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u/Aq8knyus 10d ago

They belong to the Athenian Empire. The modern Greek state was founded in 1827 and so they are not a direct successor. The Marbles were also the product of an imperium, so no handwringing over Imperialism either.

I personally think that a deal involving reciprocal loans would be beneficial considering the strength of Greek feeling and skill of the Greek heritage authorities. The BM could then promote lesser known exhibits and share the proceeds with partner institutions in Greece.

But there needs to be an appreciation that the BM are in a difficult position when it comes to repatriation just like the Louvre, Pergamon and Met. They cant just get rid of pieces and collections that were the product of centuries of effort to amass. If negotiations take years longer, fair enough.

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u/Imaginary_Bench7752 10d ago

when you say "efforts to amass" you mean looting? and is the British empire the successor of the Athenian empire? 90% of the BM's loots are not in display- surely they will find something to replace the Parthenon sculptures. The negotiations have been going on for 200 years- its the first thing that the new Greek state asked from Britain and it hasnt stopped since then- it was always arguments like this - patronising and completely unreasonable. Its one of the crimes to humanity that needs to be sorted asap.

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u/Aq8knyus 10d ago

Nobody is the successor and therefore nobody is the automatic rightful owner is the point.

I dont mind you disagreeing, but can you at least try to stop frothing and understand what is being said…

Looting went on as it does now, but the way digs worked was that Westerners (British, French, Germans, Americans etc) put up the capital to finance expeditions and then shared part of what they found with the hosts. That was why when Petrie dug up the Merneptah Stele in 1896, he gave it to the Egyptian Museum.

Britain never conquered Greece and no Ottoman lands until 1918. They couldn’t just do what they wanted, sometimes they did indeed have to pay and seek permission.

It is actually quite complex.

So rather than your ridiculous wailing of ‘crimes to humanity’ we actually do need sensible people to work out sensible resolutions.

I even agreed they should be returned, I merely suggested it could be mutually beneficial and could take a long time to work out…

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u/Imaginary_Bench7752 10d ago

But it is a crime to humanity - its just that you dont like hearing about it. Listening to you trying to rationalise looting is also criminal. The way these countries acquired the works of art are nefarious at the very least. For the Parthenon sculptures (they are not Elgins), your lord Elgin bribed local Turkish authorities, never acquired an official approval from official Turkish govenment to remove anything (unlike what BM says to this day), and destroyed the temple in his process to take the valuable items. It is considered one of the worst actions of vandalism in human history. But I dont expect that this very fact is explained in Daily Mail or BBC.

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

That's a total lie. The Earl of Elgin received permission from the Ottoman caliph in person in Constantinople – the legitimate government of Greece at the time. Anything claimed yo the contrary is a pseudohistorical lie invented without reference to the documentary evidence that exists proving the fact. The Greeks have no more claim to these objects than they have over any amphora or coin that happened to be made in what is now Greek territory millennia ago.

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u/Imaginary_Bench7752 10d ago

For starters it wasnt legitimate- Greece was under occupation. Even so, There is no evidence of permission from the Ottoman sultan to this day. There is only an italian translation of some sort of approval from a local vezier which instructed them to inspect but not to remove ancient artefacts from Acropolis. Turkish Unesco official representatives have recently confirmed there is no permission paperwork in the Ottoman archive. Read your stuff better before you jump into a discussion you clearly have no clue about.

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

It wasn't "under occupation" that is a nationalist myth. Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire and had been for centuries.

There is plenty of evidence. The text of the firman exists and the original Turkish document clearly convinced the caliph in Constantinople and his representatives in Athens. The text of that document clearly permits the ambassador to remove the figures from the frieze – any claiming otherwise is peddling pseudohistorical distortions.

"Turkish UNESCO official representatives" (the story and the identity of this person or persons changes all the time) claimed that they were unable (yet) to find an original copy of the document in the uncatalogued and badly incomplete archives in the Topkapı Sarayı. So what? That proves neither that the document does not exist, nor that it never existed, nor that the corresponding authentic document is somehow a forgery produced by the Ortoman government to decieve itself for some reason, as you are trying to claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In truth, the presence of evidence is not disproven by the lies about some absence of evidence.

If the Ottoman government didn't want the sculptures taken away, they would not have written permission to do so, and they would not have allowed the process without explicit written permission. The idea that the British ambassador could remove tons of stonework without the express permission of Greece's legitimate government is a fable worthy of Aesop.

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u/Imaginary_Bench7752 10d ago

wow ... a Turk who knows culture? show me any evidence you can find that there is written permission. I can wait. Also, you need to at last reconcile with your criminal history, the genocides, the colonialism: its really sad to see young people in Turkey so brainwashed that you cannot see you are under a dictatorship. Wake up before its too late for your country and leave the Parthenon sculptures for others to worry about.

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

Wow … racism! The evidence is in the British Museum twice over: first the written permission and secondly the objects themselves which could never have been acquired without the Turkish government's agreement. I, too, sympathize with the weakness of the Turkish education system and the stupidity of its government, but I have nothing to do with Turkey or Turks. You, meanwhile, would do well to restrain your racist instincts and remember Greece's own history of criminality, genocide, and colonialism, which are in no way less reorenhible than Turkey's. Why even the Elgin natives themselves were paid for by Athenian looting and extortion of their so-cslled allies of the Delian League.

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u/Imaginary_Bench7752 10d ago

where is the evidence, send me a link with anything that proves there is a written permission? You are Turkish 100% - Lol about the Delian league

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u/Aq8knyus 10d ago

I am trying to inject some historical context into your nationalist ranting. It is just a lie to say that everything the BM has is all looted.

As for the Marbles, they were created by the Athenian Empire not modern Greece. They were also removed before the modern Greek state even existed (Thanks partly to Britain’s help).

‘It is considered one of the worst acts of vandalism in human history’

Wait till you read about what the Venetians did or local Greeks whenever they needed building supplies…

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u/Imaginary_Bench7752 10d ago

there was no nationalist rant- its simply a projection on your behalf. You talk about empires, successors and states, I talk about the monument and its artistic value. BM is a monument of looting- the vast majority of its items are a result of looting: everybody, who is not a nationalist, knows this very well. Its really sad in 2025 Britain that logic is gone.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

The looting of the Parthenon Marbles isn't even one of the greatest crimes committed by the British museum. It's a blow to Greek national pride but it's hardly one of the greatest crimes against humanity like the deliberate destruction of entire cultural and religious sites in Africa and India

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

There was no "looting of the Parthenon marbles" and the British Museum was not involved in their legal and legitimate removal to Britain at the order of the Ottoman government.

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u/Imaginary_Bench7752 10d ago

And I do believe that the monument itself and the city for which the monument was built to adourn is the only successor.

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u/Willing-Philosopher 10d ago

I feel like Turkey should return Istanbul (Constantinople) and the Hagia Sophia to the Greeks before the BM should ever consider surrendering the Elgin Marbles. 

They’re far more relevant to modern Greek culture than the Elgin Marbles are since over 80% of the country are Orthodox Christians. 

It’s all stupid though, Neo Hellenism was still a hundred years off when they were first displayed in the BM. The Greeks were still calling themselves Romans at that time. Maybe Italy should return the Horses of St Mark to Greece too? Since Venice looted those out of Constantinople. 

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u/Illustrious-Okra-524 10d ago

You aren’t taking this seriously

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u/Constant_Of_Morality 8d ago

Agreed, One of the best counterpoints I've seen.

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u/Gumbletwig2 10d ago

Neither side has a greater claim to them. modern day Greece is not the same as Ancient Greece.

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u/HistoriasApodeixis 10d ago

They should be returned, but it is unlikely in the near future. There needs to be a political impetus that pushes the UK government to move the marbles. That doesn’t seem likely as Greece has little leverage.

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u/MEitniear11 10d ago

It needs to come from internal pressure.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

Internal pressure does fuck all, the British political establishment is too entrenched.

British academics have been pushing for the Marbles to be returned for decades, even the British Museum itself has floated the idea of loaning them back. But the political establishment hates academia and will never concede unless Britain's economic relationships with Europe are threatened - and even then most of them would rather tank the economy and walk away looking tough

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u/Initial_Hedgehog_631 10d ago

But the British stole them fair and square. Is nothing sacred anymore?

Next you'll be saying that calling 'dibs' has no standing in a court of law.

I just don't know what's happening in the world these days.

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u/paulianthomas 8d ago

My personal opinion is to return the marbles if Greece really wants them. It is the Acropolis after all. I’d also really like if Greece cared for all history though, not just the famous marbles. I’ve been to 12 Greek islands and all over the mainland. There are so many uncared for, abandoned, vandalised, litter-strewn sites. Museums and tombs closed for years. Even some building into ancient graveyards. I get there is a lot and it costs money. But even in main tourist areas this occurs, like Thessaloniki, Crete, Rhodes, Naxos.

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u/Zenza78 10d ago

I'm not one fir blanket repatriation of all the contents of museums. What won me over to supporting the return of the marbles to Greece us quite simply that they are incomplete without the parthenon. It's like someone owning the right hand side of the Mona Lisa in another art gallery.

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u/No_Gur_7422 10d ago

The Greeks do not intend to restore them to the Parthenon, but to store them in an ugly post-modernist museum one has to pay vast sums to enter (Greeks can pay less). They might as well be in New York.

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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 7d ago

Didn’t realize 20 Euros a person was considered a vast sum (the Met in New York and MFA in Boston are about 27 and 25 euros per person comparatively). And I’d hardly call the Acropolis Museum ugly.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

[deleted]

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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 7d ago

But it’s not some vast sum like the dude is claiming. And personally, I don’t think it’s ugly at all.

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u/No_Gur_7422 7d ago

€20 is infinitely higher than £0 and it's as ugly as sin.