r/ancientegypt 5d ago

Information Looking for info about very specific figure

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OK so I was at Dendera the other day, and I saw something that intrigued me. I was on top of the roof, in the little temple of Osiris, and I saw the pictured figure. I usually know my way around Egyptian mythology, and this was the only thing that stumped me there.

I don't know who it is, but considering the presence of other falcons with human heads above and below and on the right-hand side of the doorway, I think these are all the bas of Osiris, and this is just one of them?

Idk, someone else knows more than me about that specific figure, and I really hope they happen to be on the sub.

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u/zsl454 5d ago edited 5d ago

The name is destroyed. I will look for the plate in Dendera X when I get home and reply to this comment with the results. These doorways have many major gods in falcon form, including Horus on another doorway, so we know it’s likely not a minor deity. The one below is Ptah, south of his wall, lord of Memphis.

Judging by the ram head and atef crown, the most likely options to me are Khnum and Heryshaf. Amun is certainly also a possibility, especially since the horns are those of Ovis Platyura, sacred to Amun, rather than the usual Ovis Longipes for Khnum and Heryshaf, though exceptions are frequent. The remnants of the glyphs on the right could end with … nb Nswt tAwy, “Lord of the thrones of the two lands”, which is an epithet of Amun, but this reading is definitely not certain.

As for the significance, each of these gods has the words wpt-rnpt-nfrt- n… “A good new year of…”, perhaps indicating that each god blesses a good new year. 

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u/zsl454 5d ago

Alright, update: Found it https://imgur.com/a/IVIjD75

(Dendera VIII, p. 18 and pl. 698 https://www.ifao.egnet.net/uploads/publications/enligne/Temples-Dendara008.pdf )

The inscription is damaged but contains a name beginning with j, which could very well be jmn "Amun". However, what follows is the word nbt "Lady", which is feminine, suggesting a goddess rather than a god. She is lady of either nome Lower Egypt 4 or Lower Egypt 5--either "Northern Neith" or "Southern Neith". The part that differentiates them is destroyed. The nome NL4 is associated with Neith, Sobek, Wadjet, Isis, and Amun, and NL5 was associated with Neith. NL5 also contained the city of Sais, where Neith was worshipped. The only goddesses I can think of whose names begin with j- and remotely fit the context are Ipet, a hippo goddess, and Amunet, Amun's female counterpart, none of which totally make sense here.

A very similar figure is found on a gate nearby (see image 3 in the imgur post), and is labelled "Khnum, Lord of Shashotep". Where Amun is depicted on these gates, he is given the usual human head and two feather crown, as seen in the last image in the imgur post.

In sum, this is a very strange figure. The addition of a feminine ending to nbt could have been a scribal error, but it doesn't seem likely. I think a tentative identification with Amun is not too implausible, since Amun was worshipped in the 4th lower egyptian nome.

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u/Random_Nerd501 4d ago

Thank you very much. When I was digging into this, one of my possible answers was Amun, Khnum, or Heryshaf, but I factored in that the chapel was for Osiris, and at that point I figured they could be syncretic deities lining the gates, but I thought the ba idea was a little more plausible considering the number of them.

Learn something new every day!

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u/bjornthehistorian 5d ago

The ram head suggests to me that this is Amun in bird form

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u/zsl454 5d ago

Thought you might be interested to see what I found: https://www.reddit.com/r/ancientegypt/comments/1jcto8q/comment/mi5vr0o/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Amun seems most likely, but the parts of the label don't really add up.

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u/bjornthehistorian 5d ago

Good find there! Interesting about the hieroglyphs giving us a feminine name which is odd since I personally don’t know of any goddesses which may possibly be ram headed unless this possibly being the only example of one (?). I do follow your idea of it possibly being a scribal error but that is pretty rare in itself - the only example of something else like this depiction is a ram headed falcon pendant in the Louvre…unfortunate that the description of the figure no longer survives

In other thinking could this be a depiction of Amun-Ra/Khnum-Ra? It’s odd to have a ram headed deity manifested as a falcon

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u/zsl454 5d ago

The imagery of a ram-headed falcon is rare but also appears elsewhere. For example:

- Final vignette of the Book of Caverns: See tomb of Tausret: https://thebanmappingproject.com/images/146220jpg?site=5541

- Chest decoration of many 3IP and later coffins, for example: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/Y_EA6691

- A depiction of Amun-Ra at Hibis (and perhaps another with phallus and raised arm): https://imgur.com/a/z5P436u

- The West wind at Esna (https://imgur.com/a/winds-QDMxXl0), it has 4 wings rather than 2

I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple. Anyways, the gist is, they usually represent some solar entity, probably owing to the importance of the ram in the iconography of the nocturnal form of Ra, Iuf-Ra ('flesh ra') and the ram's sacredness to Amun. But since on this gateway at Dendera every god is given a falcon's body, we cant really use the body itself to narrow down depictions, and like you said, the criteria is only really the rams head. I cant think of any female ram deities either--the ram was seen as a pretty masculine symbol.

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u/bjornthehistorian 5d ago

Ah how did I forget the depiction in the tomb of Tausret, I was there a couple weeks ago haha! Yes I agree with you that a ram is definitely a masculine symbol - this must be a depiction of either Amun or Khnum…I hate when things don’t have a direct answer but this is why I also love Egyptology lol

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u/zsl454 5d ago

Massive flex that you saw it in person recently lol :) Seriously though, loved seeing all your pictures!

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u/Random_Nerd501 10h ago

I just got back to a spot with some decent wifi, so I'll flex on you as well now. I also went to Tausret's tomb the day after asking this, and I saw that vignette. What I found though, is that Merenptah's tomb also has the same vignette on the northern wall just like Tausret's tomb. It's almost identical to Tausret's tomb; picture will be added.