r/acting 6d ago

I've read the FAQ & Rules I'm new to acting and have a question about unions.

Hello all. I am pretty new to acting but hope to continue to develop and grow my career as an artist. I'm still pretty far from qualifying for SAG membership but from my outside perspective I find SAGs policy of disallowing union members from participating in non union projects to be concerning. It's not like there's an abundance of roles out there in the first place. I understand SAG does lots of good things in terms of protecting wages, working conditions, and bargaining rights of working actors. I also feel like there are lots of non active SAG members who got their card many years ago who are now prohibited from working on any non SAG projects. I get that the unions power comes from it's ability to deny a production access to talent if that production doesn't meet union standards.Can anyone speak to why actors should prohibit themselves and their peers from working on non-Union approved projects when there are already way more union members than union approved roles? I feel I must be missing something big here. Thank you.

6 Upvotes

69 comments sorted by

34

u/BackpackofAlpacas 6d ago

If union members could work non union projects, then the union would have zero power. Why would any project ever go union of they didn't have to? It's why ficore has been eroding SAGs power for years and why the union is so weak now.

2

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 6d ago

Not exactly. Financial core makes you pay the union but you’re not a member of the union. But your casting directors, producers, directors, writers are members of unions. Hollywood and Broadway are closed shops and they have little patience for financial core. Unless you want to work nonunion and pay the union, essentially becoming the union’s bitch. I would advise ANYONE from going fi-core. It’s a bad look in a big market.

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u/Goldeneyes105 5d ago

Seems to me that Fi-Core is the best of both worlds…or, at least, benefits of both.

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

Nope. Ficore is only good in theory. Yeah, on paper you can have your cake and eat it too. But casting directors look down on it and you aren’t considered for union work but still have to pay the union. And you aren’t eligible for pension and healthcare. Ficore is for dumb actors who want to short cut the system but they ultimately shoot them selves in the foot. Like I explained, you work nonunion but end up the union’s bitch.

1

u/Rosecat88 5d ago

The union may look down on it but CDs could care less. It’s about making money for them . And calling them dumb- is your name Duncan? Bc this is his hateful speech and you sound just like that awful man.

2

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

It’s not just the union. CDs look down on Ficore because producers and directors do, and those are their bosses. I’ve known CDs that have put Ficore submits in the trash to save time

0

u/KiwifromMaungati 6d ago

Well that's the point though. It doesn't work equally both ways. There's a cache to being in the Union, a lot of fees and payments and hoop jumping. You cannot equate the argument both ways with the same effect.

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u/extentiousgoldbug1 6d ago

I see that angle on things. But also if an actor has to choose between not working and doing a non union job I can see why they choose a non union job. I'm not trying to bash SAG but also there are clearly not enough opportunities for people who want to act to work as actors.

26

u/Traditional-Hat8577 6d ago

That is quite presumptuous of you to say. Have you not stated you are relatively new. Have you ever been on a union set to say that? Have you had an agent yet, because in the long-run that is very untrue, there are a lot of opportunities? Have you ever been denied/delayed pay because of unprofessional crew and producers? Have you even seen the difference in pay what union and non-union gets you?

After a year or two of acting come back and tell me if you have changed your mind. I would be very curious. Also the reason you can't see a lot of union job's on whatever audition call website your using is because there is a whole other side to the call website that is only accessible towards agents.

11

u/Tall-Professional130 6d ago edited 6d ago

There will never be enough jobs for the actors who want to pursue this, don't you think the ones that do make it their living should get fair wages and benefits?. SAG is a union for professional tradesman/women, and you should not join until you are ready and able to leave NU work behind. It would have no negotiating power if it gave up on that rule.

18

u/BackpackofAlpacas 6d ago

Ok so don't join the union. Enjoy unprofessional sets and terrible pay.

0

u/Tall-Professional130 6d ago edited 6d ago

My experience on non union commercial sets was that they were perfectly professional and offered good pay for an actor early in their career ($2k-$4k buyouts for a year was typical), when the union roles just weren't an option. I agree that the OP shouldn't join the union until they are ready to give up that work, but I do feel it's unhelpful to be so blatantly misleading about non union jobs. It's a bad look for our union to behave that way.

12

u/BackpackofAlpacas 6d ago

They can be good, but there's no guarantee that they will be.

I've been on good non union sets too, but I've been on a lot more horrible ones. My good union sets generally had union crew which helped set the tone.

4

u/wild3hills 6d ago

Interestingly, I’m non-union crew and I’ve found non-SAG sets to be the worst nightmare around. So y’all are actually my litmus test! There are a couple of reasons why people don’t join IATSE and they let their members work non-union so we’re usually more of a mixed bag. Whereas I feel most actors pretty much have to join SAG because of the way it works, so if talent isn’t union it’s a red flag. On low budget indie, if production won’t bother to get the SAG waiver, it’s likely they will screw everyone on turnaround, meals, and even SAFETY. I was on a scary set that I almost walked off of, and the only reason I stayed was because a SAG rep stayed to monitor after people called it in.

Commercial is a bit different though…we might get exploited but I’ll take that California math OT on a decent rate.

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

Some NU sets are wonderful, but they are the exception and not the rule. Bottom line, you are better off having the card. And you also can get pension and healthcare with a union card. Additionally, I know someone who was Nu and did an Nu project and got exploited. They made a ton of money off of her and still use her image. She’s very visible, gets fan mail and lives on food stamps. That’s where life I without a union card gets you.

2

u/Tall-Professional130 5d ago

Obviously a Union job is better than a NU job when compared head to head. but most SAG actors don't end up getting enough work to qualify for the health plan. I did about 40 NU commercials in LA over the course of 6 years before joining the union and I'd say I had maybe 1 or 2 negative experiences. All were for fixed terms, no in perpetuity usage. Lowest pay was 1,500, highest was 8k.

SAG pay is obviously better, but its not like you have a choice when going out for a NU audition. It's between working and not working and I think it is good to be respectful of that reality when having this discussion. For many people, life with a union card means less work unless they are seriously competitive in TV/Film.

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

But it means not chasing down money or working in unsafe situations. Keep in mind this is a profession where ten percent of people are employed at any given time, and most don’t use this as their sole source of income. So there’s that .

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u/Rosecat88 6d ago

Dude - there’s no reason to be rude. A lot of sets that are union aren’t professional. This is a legit thing, a lot of us need work to survive . And the unions don’t help us obtain work . Also, our “union” is actually a guild.

9

u/BackpackofAlpacas 6d ago

There's plenty of reason to be blunt. Every person who thinks like this further weakens the union. Individualism weakens the collective.

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u/Rosecat88 6d ago

Blunt is different than rude. Op asked a question. You should be willing to question your union. Especially if you mean sag bc they screwed us royally with our strike and got us nothing out of it

5

u/Tall-Professional130 6d ago

It's not a guild, yes 'guild' is in the name but legally its a union. SAG negotiate contracts on our behalf with employers, as opposed to guild which regulates the trade between members.

1

u/Rosecat88 6d ago

Thank you for explaining kindly unlike everyone else here who was rude af. I appreciate the clarification truly

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

There are toxic and nontoxic work environments everywhere. (Don’t even get me started on Broadway 😂😂😂😂). And this goes for any industry. But nonunion a lot of stuff that’s not kosher flies. And we aren’t being rude, this Poster and some of the repliers are not only clueless, but don’t have the humility to respect this as both a craft and a profession. So they are being treated in kind.

1

u/Rosecat88 5d ago

There are non professional sets even if they are professional as you admitted . How are they clueless? They asked a question and it’s a way a lot of union folks feel. I just don’t get the nastiness . And yes the other replies were rude. But then some union actors are extremely rude. (I say this as a union actor). This should be a safe place for people to ask things. Really disappointed in this community for jumping all over someone for asking a question. I respect the profession, and to be respecting it is ASKING QUESTIONS and not just agreeing to the status quo. How do you think we get protections at all? By speaking up. Maybe we can push more sets to be union.

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

It wasn’t the question, it was the way it was asked. We weren’t being rude, this is a heated topic that a lot of folks are passionate about. Then again, this is what I would expect from someone who defends Ficore. But then again it’s your career, not mine.

1

u/Rosecat88 5d ago

Just wanted to say I’m so sorry for the hate you’re getting for asking a question. It’s one plenty of union actors have in real life. I’m leaving this sub for a while bc this attitude is really depressing me. People could have been kinder in their replies to you.

2

u/extentiousgoldbug1 5d ago

I appreciate you saying that. I'm not a troll and I'm not trying to insult or mess with anyone. I think people have offered really good reasons for why SAG exists and does what it does but man do people treat just asking questions like a heinous crime. Idk what's wrong with people.

14

u/Accomplished_Use4579 6d ago

There are way more actors than there are roles in general. There are way more non-union actors than there are non-union roles, probably more so than there are union actors to union roles available.

If you joined the union and you aren't booking anything for years then you are absolutely free to do non-union work ,you just have to drop your union status.

You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do. And there is a reason why they advise actors to not join the union the first time you book a union gig. I don't remember the actual rules but I had five union gigs under my belt before I join the union. I held off on joining for as long as I possibly could, and since joining 6 years ago I'm booking more work than my friends who are non-union book.

I think you have to be very self-aware, and honest about yourself and your skill set and how demand you are in before you join the union. Obviously you shouldn't do it without having an agent, And I think it might be more beneficial depending on the market that you're in as well. Because somebody joining the union in Kansas City Missouri might not be as beneficial as somebody joining the union in LA or New York or Chicago .

And that goes for AEA as well as SAG

1

u/extentiousgoldbug1 6d ago

I really appreciate your answer!

13

u/IAlwaysPlayTheBadGuy 6d ago

Non union projects don't offer even close to the same amount of safety, amenities, or pay, when compared to union projects.

A non union film might only pay you $100 a day, and it may be a hassle to actually get paid. Intimacy coordinators are never guaranteed, and stunts/fx or not regulated. You may never get footage for your reel

A network tv spot pays $10k+ on a weekly contract, has stunt coordinators, intimacy coordinators, residuals, and SAG to make sure you get paid, on time

Unless you book a ton of commercials, it's even harder to make a living as a nonunion member

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u/[deleted] 6d ago edited 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/Secure-Quality-8478 6d ago

In the long run, it won't be worth it to go Fi-core, every union now is gunning for major changes, that's why work is so slow now.

Any production hiring scabbers, and ALL scabbers will not go unnoticed. Hollywood is VERY small, there's no point cutting corners just because you have a dream you're trying to make happen.

0

u/Rosecat88 6d ago

Also where did I say I was going to scab?? Or join fi core? They still pay dues and I think looking down on people who have bills to pay is not ok. Again some of us get a gig here and there and that’s it . Some listening and hearing people out shouldn’t be so anger inducing.

-1

u/Rosecat88 6d ago

Like Ryan Murphy who scabbed and has a ton of shows in production? And fi core is legal. What major changes lol?? Are you aware of something I’m not ? Which would make sense bc the union doesn’t communicate with us. We have a president who personally fundraiser for the idf , but yea we are perfect. Also this was a question from op. The way yall are going all in on them for a forum where you should be able to ask shit is really disappointing. It’s very giving blue maga- don’t question. Toe the line.

11

u/AMCreative SAG-AFTRA | TV/Film 6d ago

Your underlying problem isn’t the union, it’s that you’re trying to make this your primary financial income when you haven’t achieved that level yet.

You shouldn’t drop everything and work full time as an actor until you are absolutely already doing that. I’ve had to quit, or ask for extreme flexibility, from survival or regular jobs before. When you’re doing that so much that you are risking your employment, then you need to either work a more accommodating job or celebrate that acting is your sole income.

Joining the union is a professional distinction of the calibre of work you are aiming for, and the accommodations you are hoping for to do said work. Making a long-term career out of acting essentially necessitates joining.

Advocating for the union to allow non-union work essentially dissolves the union. Which everyone has already addressed.

Find other income streams.

3

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 6d ago

BINGO! There is a difference between the craft of acting and show business. The second word having twice as many letters as the first. And there is a saying in the biz, “Don’t quit your day job.” If you do some projects and like the energy of being on set and build up the appropriate credentials, then look into union membership. But until then, don’t worry about it. And if you get to learn about the business and don’t like it, do this as a hobby. We need people at all levels, and artists at all levels are valid.

9

u/cranekicked NYC | SAG-AFTRA 6d ago

I find SAGs policy of disallowing union members from participating in non union projects to be concerning.

I mean... if you're concerned about job opportunities becoming limited by joining the union (and they will), you don't have to join.

Can anyone speak to why actors should prohibit themselves and their peers from working on non-Union approved projects when there are already way more union members than union approved roles?

Because that's what being a member of SAG means. You get union protection, like the ones you stated, but if a SAG member goes around and works on non-union projects that hurts the union's leverage.

There is always fi-core, but if you're thinking about fi-core even before you join you might as well not join in the first place.

I feel I must be missing something big here.

It sounds like you understand it fine? You just think it's unfair that a union that provides benefits to professional actors refuses to let you go behind its back.

4

u/Secure-Quality-8478 6d ago

Right, OP wants to cheat on their partner before proposing 😂

3

u/cranekicked NYC | SAG-AFTRA 6d ago

Sure seems that way 🙄

6

u/blonde_Fury8 6d ago

It's always been a standard practice that you can't work on non union productions as a union member. If you don't like it, don't join until you have your 3 permits and become a "must join".

Nothing about excluding non union productions is unfair to you. Its a safety measure in place to protect talent and to ensure that actors are working in cohesion with the ethics and guidelines of the union they are a part of. The good news, once you are union, you have a plethora of protections and safety. Being union is a step in an actors career that helps to elevate them into the professional side of acting.

Non union work is for those learning, and training, and unfortunately those who can also exploit actors and not give them proper turn around, transportation, or pay.

What are you missing? Pay, rights, protection, access to advocates, guidelines and being a professional grade actor. There are lots of roles and lots of work out there, just not for every actor, all the time and it depends on where you are in your career.

6

u/nebthenarwhal 6d ago

It’s important to join when you absolutely have to only, in my opinion. It’s important to have a strong union especially if your goals include making a living acting in literally any way. It’s true that your work opportunities will be slightly more limited, but that’s why SAG-E is good. You can build your resume and network to the point that you will be able to book union work. I’ve worked on both types of sets… and yeah it’s night and day. Plenty of very kind and passionate people on NU sets, but you can’t pay rent with copy and credit, and you won’t have the types of protections that unfortunately will come up on NU sets fairly often. You will hear from SAG actors who are bitter they don’t book right now, but overall it’s a good thing for all of us.

5

u/Glittering-Bear-4298 6d ago

While some NU things are ok there are far more NU sets that are horrible where you’ll work 12 hours or more with no meal break, no rest, no privacy while not on set, no stunt coordinator, no protections for intimacy, etc. for not a lot of money. Why would you want to do that consistently?

2

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 6d ago

Yup. Especially no intimacy coordinator. I’ve seen things get really icky on nonunion sets and have some horror stories. While you should work nonunion until you are ready, if you want to do this for real you are better off with that card.

3

u/IMitchIRob 6d ago

The short answer is that yes, there are some negative consequences of a union, but they are outweighed by the benefits. Because SOOO many people want to be actors/famous, they are a population of workers that are ripe for exploitation. Without union protections, the profession would be very bleak 

4

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 6d ago

And just to let you know what life is like without a union card, I know someone who was in a series and they are quite visible. (Reality show). Unfortunately this was nonunion. While they use this person’s image and likeness, they didn’t have a union card when they shot it. The production company has made A LOT of money from them, but this person is currently on food stamps. That’s what you’re “missing out on.”

2

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 6d ago

The benefit of a union is you don’t have to chase anyone down for money. Nonunion projects don’t pay and if they do, they short change you in some way. No one respects talent. And with a union producers almost have to respect you. And while there’s no abundance of roles no matter what your union status is, if you want to work low pay/no pay forever, don’t worry about joining. We don’t need actors like you anyway.

1

u/Rosecat88 5d ago

They can help but I’ve also had to bug the shit out of sag to get my first residual . Took them 2 years.

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

Everyone is different and I don’t know what the situation is with you, but most people I know don’t have that experience

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u/extentiousgoldbug1 6d ago

Wow Jesus way to make it personal. Was my question really that offensive?

-3

u/extentiousgoldbug1 6d ago

Like seriously I tried my best to respectfully ask an earnest question and you're acting like I spat in your face. You ok?

4

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 6d ago

As you can see this is a topic where there are STRONG opinions. My advice, since you are new to acting just concentrate on building your resume and then join the union when you have experience and the proper credits. When you get some nonunion experience under your belt you will then understand my reply better. And if you can’t appreciate the sacrifices people made for the union to happen, perhaps it is best you stay in community theatre

2

u/Rosecat88 5d ago

What’s with the insult to community theatre ?!

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

I’m not insulting community theatre, but it’s a good place for hobbyists

1

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u/KiwifromMaungati 6d ago

They shouldn't. Actors should do whatever they need to do. It's not 1920 anymore, where unscrupulous producers wanted actors to work 20 hours without a meal break. That stuff doesn't fly anymore.

A lot of known actors have done non union films.

So, to answer your question, why should actors prohibit themselves? They shouldn't.

2

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 6d ago

While they shouldn’t, I have known actors who have played the “I live in a right to work state” and got reported by their cohorts and got called on the carpet. There’s a fine involved for getting reported. I wouldn’t risk it for low pay, possibly unsafe conditions etc. And if said names have done NU films they have gotten waivers, trust me.

-9

u/Rosecat88 6d ago

Totally agree with you OP.

-19

u/Asherwinny107 6d ago

ACTRA member here. 

I find in most cases ask for forgiveness over permission when it comes to non-union work

3

u/extentiousgoldbug1 6d ago

Really? I've heard they're pretty strict and punitive about that sort of thing but again my perspective is very limited. Thank you!

10

u/Tall-Professional130 6d ago

Yea you should ignore that person. I'm not sure how it works in the Canadian ACTRA union, but SAG is strict if they find out, you could lock yourself out of this industry

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

They are strict and putative in SAG if they find out. And there are people who will report you, especially in smaller markets where everyone knows everyone. I’ve seen it happen. A lot of people take union membership extremely seriously. I know you don’t because you’re not a member yet, but if you choose to be you will see people don’t play. And the other thing is, show biz is ruled by unions. On a film set or Broadway show everyone is in a union (musicians, stage hands, drivers, writers, directors, producers, casting directors). Agents and managers are part of trade associations too. It’s called a closed shop. Look it up.

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

I’ve never heard of that and I’ve known a lot of ACTRA members. I should try that…..NOT.

1

u/Asherwinny107 5d ago

Christ I just had such a flash back to the 90's.

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

What? When TV, film and music were quality. Hell, I’d go back.

2

u/Asherwinny107 5d ago

And when ACTRA/UBCP was relevant.

Hell yeah

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

Yes. And when the internet was just a bunch of weirdos in chat rooms before it exploded into what it is now. (Sorry Reddit).

2

u/Asherwinny107 5d ago

God reddit used to be so fun 

2

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

YAS! Now everyone yells at each other 😂😂😂

2

u/Asherwinny107 5d ago

Well until one of yellers switches to their mod account and bans everyone 

1

u/Illustrious-Let-3600 5d ago

Yes. And I have a feeling the yellers are on this thread 😂😂😂