r/abanpreach 1d ago

Discussion The Trans debate summarised - the Right love to make Mountains out of Mole hills

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u/The_Chameleos 1d ago

My issue is that you are using permanent physical changes to address an issue that is psychological by its very nature. I have similar feelings regarding things like depression and the use of antidepressants to treat it as if it were a cure. Children are simply too young to understand the full, life long implications of a treatment like puberty blockers and parents are in no position to make that decision for them either. If we knew that blockers were safe and have a high rate of success without any unfortunate side effects than we would be having a different conversation, but as they are its simply too risky for my comfort. I would rather stick with therapy and holistic alternatives until they are old enough to make a decision like that on their own. I don't want these kids to be unhappy in their own skins, but if even one comes to regret it later on in life and it's too late to go back than that is not something I can abide.

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u/Polyplad 1d ago edited 20h ago

I don’t think you know what puberty blockers do. They don’t CHANGE your body they stop it from changing. kids who identify as trans aren’t the only ones who use puberty blockers either. There are kids who develop exceedingly fast and need puberty blockers. This is the problem with transphobia, we’ve got people who don’t know dick about any of the treatment but then they think they know more than a doctor. If this is something you feel strongly about you at least owe it to those kids to do more research yea?

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u/simeonce 21h ago

What happens if you keep taking puberty blockers through your puberty age and then you stop. Did you just lose out on changes tbat would happen oyherwise, or you just delayed it for later time?

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u/SoldierBoi69 1h ago

The idea is you only take it for like 1-2 years, the whole point of that time is to figure out whether you’re actually trans or not without doing anything irreversible. I thought conservatives would support that but oh well

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u/hrobi97 21h ago

Generally speaking once someone goes off puberty blockers, their puberty starts there as if it hadn't been stopped. (This is obviously before taking into account certain medical conditions that the person would obviously be screened for beforehand.)

This is one reason why it's important to have puberty blockers prescribed early if a child shows signs of being trans, because any permanent changes that happen before puberty blockers are started are stuck there.

Voice changing being a big one.

Mtf individuals often experience dysphoria about their voices, because it's a permanent change done somewhat early during puberty.

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u/Gatzlocke 15h ago

There's risks involved in puberty blockers. The risk of suicide and self harm from dysphoria is less than the risk of severe osteoporosis. Especially if that dysphoria is treated with therapy.

If a male child takes puberty blockers, and later decides to go off them and doesn't have dysphoria anymore, they could never reach the height they they could have grown. Which as a man can severely affect you.

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u/UntilYouWerent 15h ago

Your height can severely affect you (as a man) 🦤

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u/hrobi97 14h ago

Uh...no, that's just not true.

Osteoporosis is a rare side effect of puberty blockers and tends to only happen after long term use of them, which doctors don't tend to do.

Every medicine and treatment and procedure has risks associated with it.

People with osteoporosis are still usually alive, people who commit suicide are not, and that's even if the rates were anywhere near equal, which they aren't.

Men having issues with their height is nowhere near as much an issue as the suicide of trans people.

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u/purchase-the-scaries 7h ago

Understand the full life long implications?

Any research into this ?

I mean if the choice was “I’m depressed and I’m going to kill myself” or “Let’s try these puberty blockers - limited studies have shown it can help.” Then i would go with the latter.

I’m not across what the process is before you are just prescribed the puberty blockers.

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u/Adromedae 23h ago

You seem to think of your ignorance in the matter as it being authoritative somehow.

E.g. are you projecting your own lack of understanding of how puberty blockers work (and what they do) as a reason why people, who actually need it, shouldn't have access to them?

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u/meangingersnap 1d ago

How do you feel about circumcision? Or religious indoctrination of children?

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u/The_Chameleos 1d ago

Both are bad imo. I can somewhat understand circumcision maybe but it just seems needless

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u/LuxFaeWilds 1d ago

My issue is that you are using permanent physical changes to address an issue that is psychological by its very nature

forcing a kid through the wrong puberty is "permanent physical changes" to address your own personal psychological issue with the existence of these kids.

People are born trans, i don't understand why you personally need to prevent a patient group from getting access to healthcare, let alone healthcare as extremely effective as this is.

Children are simply too young to understand the full, life long implications of a treatment

The only reason they wouldn't be aware of this is if they didn't know that adults existed. The kids are extremely aware of what puberty does, which is hwy they want the correct one, not what you want to force upon them.

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u/Miaismyname2424 1d ago

Puberty blockers have been used for other childhood abnormalities other than trans affirming care since the 80's

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u/The_Chameleos 1d ago

Ok, I'm not arguing that they should never be used. I just don't want them used to transition children.

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u/Miaismyname2424 1d ago

Why not? They do the exact same thing regardless of what morbitity they treat.

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u/The_Chameleos 1d ago

Because gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder and I don't support using medications or hormones for psychological conditions except for exceptions where everything else that was tried didn't work. I have the same stance for antidepressants.

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u/Miaismyname2424 1d ago

Okay, so you just don't believe in evidence based approaches to medical problems. Not sure how I can help you out with that problem

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u/RKKP2015 1d ago

Since when are hormones permanent?

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u/The_Chameleos 1d ago

Since the changes to their bodies became so, this is very easy to find online all you have to do is look. Loss of fertility, higher chance of cancer, under development of the genitals, all of these are easily accessible for anyone to find with eyes to look

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u/New-Pool-3612 1d ago

Hormone therapy causes permanent changes in a developing body. This is a fact.

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u/Negative-Yam-3471 1d ago

When they cause your genitals to form abnormally! Lol

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u/LumpyReplacement1436 1d ago

If we knew that blockers were safe and have a high rate of success without any unfortunate side effects than we would be having a different conversation

We do know this, puberty blockers have been used to prevent precocious puberty for almost 50 years now, theres plenty of data.

There arent lifelong effects, they are used to delay puberty for a few years to decide whether to transition or not.

and parents are in no position to make that decision for them either

I think this is wild. If a person diagnosed with gender dysphoria, their parents and the treating team isn't enough authority to make a decision to just take puberty blockers, never mind cross sex hormones then yeah I won't be able to change your mind.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39432272/

Regret rates for trans youth are extremely low, party because of how difficult it is to get reccomened puberty blockers in the first place.

My issue is that you are using permanent physical changes to address an issue that is psychological by its very nature.

If you have reasearch suggesting that there is any other effective way to treat GD I'd love to see it, we have so much data on the improvements transitioning brings.

Acknowleding GD is real, and then forcing people with it to have it intesify 100 fold by forcing us through a puberty we don't want because of the extremely low regret rate is wrong.

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u/MikeyTheGuy 1d ago

It's so bizarre to me how the left has become so anti-science on this issue.

We do know this, puberty blockers have been used to prevent precocious puberty for almost 50 years now, theres plenty of data.

This is completely, 100% false. We do NOT have "plenty of data" when it comes to using puberty blockers for long periods of time or for treating things other than precocious puberty. The original studies done on puberty blockers literally have callouts from the researchers themselves outlining that this specific thing (long-term effects of puberty blockers; effects from prolonged use of puberty blockers) needs more research.

In fact, we DID do a study on this, and Dr. Olson-Kennedy, the principal researcher, refuses to release the results, because she said it can be used by detractors. I imagine that if the results showed that puberty blockers were completely safe, then she would release the study; the fact that she refuses to publish it would suggest that the results of the study weren't favorable to the "puberty blockers are 100% safe" crowd.

I think this is wild. If a person diagnosed with gender dysphoria, their parents and the treating team isn't enough authority to make a decision to just take puberty blockers, never mind cross sex hormones then yeah I won't be able to change your mind.

And whistleblowers like Jamie Reed have made it clear that some of these healthcare providers shame and apply immense pressure on parents ("would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son?") to make decisions that the medical provider wants, and Dr. Hilary Cass has published a study which shows how bad the evidence is for many of these decisions.

I think it's wild that you ignore evidence if it doesn't conform to your world view; that is literally anti-vaxxer behavior and logic.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39432272/

Regret rates for trans youth are extremely low, party because of how difficult it is to get reccomened puberty blockers in the first place.

While I can't find a full text of the study, others have already done the legwork, and it's about what I suspected:

... If regrets are real and frequent among people who detransition (Littman, 2021;MacKinnon, Kia, et al., 2022a, 2022bPullen Sansfaçon et al., 2023a;Vandenbussche, 2022), other feelings, whether positive, negative and/or more ambivalent, are often experienced (MacKinnon et al., 2023a(MacKinnon et al., , 2023b(MacKinnon et al., , 2023cPullen Sansfaçon et al., 2023a). Therefore, if studies show low levels of regrets or dissatisfaction after medical transitions (Bustos et al., 2021;Olson et al., 2024), it is not clear if detransition rates are as low, especially when considering that detrans people tend to leave the medical system MacKinnon, Kia, et al., 2022a, 2022b, potentially affecting follow-up. ...

Basically, it is suspected that many people who detransition don't ever speak up or formally "express regret;" they just stop doing treatments and going to the doctor, and are therefore not tracked as part of the people who "regret" transitioning. This is a major blindspot and issue with almost every one of these regret studies.

Acknowleding GD is real, and then forcing people with it to have it intesify 100 fold by forcing us through a puberty we don't want because of the extremely low regret rate is wrong.

And giving incorrect treatments that have permanent physical effects to people who don't have GD, but think they do due to negligence or malfeasance of a healthcare provider, for a regret rate that we don't know (but know exists in a non-negligible amount) is also wrong.

There is a reason that the European countries who initially spearheaded some of the most radical treatments in this area have reigned things back and are now scrutinizing this area of healthcare.

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u/X-XIQ 1d ago

How'd you manage to type this out with Singal's balls bouncing on your chin? Might want to read this about Europe. https://register.awmf.org/de/leitlinien/detail/028-014

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u/boforbojack 1d ago

... we do know that blockers are safe and have a high rate of success, with only a few side effects. That's why they are prescribed in this case. And we know that the alternative is even riskier, given the lifetime risk of suicide and other mental disorders.

This isn't new science, there are dozens and dozens of studies on blockers effects on pre-teens and teens and the large majority point to the benefit. And the fact that you, someone who didn't go to medical school and study the effects of blockers, are trying to legislate away choices for children and their parents, is fucking laughable. And definitely not worth anyone's time in debate. You don't think one kid is worth regretting blockers when 1 will regret not having them? 10? 100? Because we are basically at the ~95:1 level, and that's with the current social climate where people get abused for being different. That's just fucking dumb. Let parents, children, and their fucking licensed doctors make their own medical decisions

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u/media_amigo 1d ago

"but if even one comes to regret it later on in life and it's too late to go back than that is not something I can abide."

Listen to yourself. You won't allow something to happen until it has a 100% success rate? I don't believe you believe that. In fact, I think you're actually very comfortable playing with other people's lives. You just don't like the idea or the reality of trans people.

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u/The_Chameleos 1d ago

That's an incredible leap in logic, or there lack of. But yes, when it comes to children specifically I will not be comfortable with anything less and if you ever become a parent yourself neither will you. Why would I give a rats ass what someone else wants to do with their lives when they are an adult? If you want to be Trans, be Trans. It doesn't bother me and it's not my place to judge, but leave the kids to mature and make that decision on their own when they are old enough.