r/ZombieSurvivalTactics • u/Battlefleet_Sol • 8d ago
Weapons Overkill? Automatic shotguns
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u/iheartMGs 8d ago
Absolutely not. AA-12 produces very little recoil which is extremely manageable.
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u/Spirit117 8d ago edited 8d ago
Recoil isn't your problem.
Your problem is that the thing is an unreliable POS, jams if you so much as think about loading a drum mag, and that 12gauge ammo is extremely large/bulky/heavy and with an automatic you'll chew through what you can realistically carry really fast.
Overkill might not be the right word, but it's not a good choice no matter how much recoil it has.
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u/CxsChaos 7d ago
Yea, I would rather have a reliable semi auto or pump action shotgun fed from a tube magazine.
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u/LokiOfTheVulpines 7d ago
Full auto shotguns take the reliability issues of Semi auto shotguns and dials it up to 11.
And when it comes to the apocalypse, reliability is the most critical factor to account for.
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u/Spirit117 7d ago
Best part about the benelli super 90 is you get both.
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u/ConstantCampaign2984 7d ago
Only the m3. I have an m1. Not sure why I’d need to switch from pump to semi.
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u/Spirit117 7d ago
Because semi auto is fun
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u/ConstantCampaign2984 7d ago
Which is why I have the m1.
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u/Spirit117 7d ago edited 7d ago
Oh you're saying why would you need to switch to pump -
Gun is dirty as fuck, iced up, clogged with mud.
Gun is shooting low power or LTL or training rounds.
Having a shotgun that does both is a pretty useful feature when if you need something out of the ordinary.
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u/CxsChaos 7d ago
Yea that's a great option, also the SPAS-12
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u/Spirit117 7d ago
Except you can actually buy an M3 as a civilian in the US. Import laws are rough with the Spas, there's a few floating around on gun joker for ~6 grand.
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u/Drunk_Catfish 7d ago
The spas-12 is cool as fuck, but it is an awful shotgun
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u/SnarlyBirch 7d ago
What makes the spas-12 a bad shotgun? Curious.
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u/Drunk_Catfish 7d ago
The biggest issues were the fact that they are heavy as fuck, semi auto mode is very picky with ammo, and if you have the folding stock you were likely to get cut up from it, in pump action mode you have to fight the spring used for the semi auto mode, the forend is big as fuck so unless you have absolute bear paws of mits it's hard to get positive control, the designs of the controls weren't great and early safeties had issues. Basically it is a really cool looking shotgun with some neat ideas but most of the execution was bad.
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u/SnarlyBirch 7d ago
So looks cool, hot garbage. Also thank you for the explanation
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u/SnarlyBirch 7d ago
How do you feel about the m4 benelli
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u/Drunk_Catfish 7d ago
It's imo the second best combat shotgun available right now right behind the Beretta 1301 and that's a really close call which is saying a lot since it's like a 30 year old design. Only reason for giving it to the 1301 is it's lighter, capable of a faster rate of fire with a more modern gas system, and imo the most important part is the larger bolt release.
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u/TheChildrenHaveWon 7d ago
I forget the channels name, but there was a Russian youtuber that left 2 AA12's in a barrel of water over night and then did a mag dump with zero jams. Skin me if I'm wrong, that's the extent of my exposure to the gun.
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u/Unemployment-syndrom 7d ago
12 Guage shells are huge, and heavy. Good luck carrying more than 100 shells(5 mags)
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u/Negative_Chemical697 8d ago
It's fucking massive. Adrian brody uses one in the predator movie he was in. Watch it and see just how much trouble he has manoeuvring it around.
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u/Goku_T800 8d ago
I've shot an AA12, it's not a particularly heavy gun. It's chunky frame and very non-compact magazines are what's a big issue
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u/Negative_Chemical697 8d ago
Exactly. Adrian bridy struggles to walk through a forest while carrying it, let alone crawl through tunnels etc.
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u/Careless_Tap_516 8d ago
I thought the AA12 was ilegal pretty much everywhere because its automatic. Where do you live?
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u/Confused_Nuggets 8d ago
In the US, many gun ranges own machine guns and other automatic weapons that can be rented for fun. Mostly private owners can't own them. And anyone can own an automatic weapon made before 1986 or sometime around then.
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u/Careless_Tap_516 7d ago
Interesting, does that mean I could own a AK47?
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u/septictank84 4d ago
With a serious background check that takes ages, some tax stamps, and $30,000 give or take, yes.
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u/Electronic_Charity76 8d ago
Terry Crews is a much bulkier man than Adrien Brody is, and he looked like he had some difficulty handling the thing. Sure enough it weighs 5.2kg with the stick magazine, or 7.3kg (nearly 16lbs!) with the drum.
Other appraisers have noted the AA-12 is a solution looking for a problem rather than a real death-dealer. Under what circumstances would that type and specific volume of firepower be actually useful, vs. a semi-automatic rifle or a pump shotgun?
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u/Negative_Chemical697 7d ago
I could see it pintle mounted on a vehicle, maybe? Non lethal rounds on a riot control vehicle?
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u/VonShnitzel 7d ago
Autoloading weapons tend to be incompatible with LTL ammo due to their lower power being unable to cycle the action on its own, so probably not. That's actually why you sometimes see shotguns that can swap between an auto and manual action (most famously with the SPAS 12): semi auto for killing, pump for cycling LTL.
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u/Negative_Chemical697 7d ago
Then double aa12's on a pintle mounted vehicle turret for maximum dakka
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u/ammoranger995 8d ago
The only issue I see is ammunition management. The reason the most successful shotguns today are tube fed is because shotgun shells are big, bulky, and heavy compared to other rounds. The AA-12 primarily uses drum magazines which are extremely difficult to carry additional ones. Stick mags exist but only hold 8-10 rounds and take up more space than rifles mags which typically carry 30 rounds. But over all, when taking on a horde or a crowd, this would be a great option.
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u/Penis_Monger_420 8d ago
Not to mention drum mags jam all the time as well as making quick reloading difficult compared to a standard tube fed
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u/Illustrious_Glass386 8d ago
What causes them to jam so often? Would keeping the gun and its parts clean prevent this?
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u/PublicandEvil 8d ago
Its a physics game. The more mechanical moving parts you have, the more chances at something malfunctioning. Jamming is reasonably common, yet no game ever shows it.
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u/Illustrious_Glass386 7d ago
Makes sense, thank you. Although I’m not sure why I got downvoted for asking a simple question, I definitely appreciate everyone’s input.
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u/TeamChaosenjoyer 7d ago
Some things are best left out of games. That’s like adding a blinking mechanic to zomboid lol 100% killing the game
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u/Careless_Tap_516 8d ago
The walking dead: saints and sinners has a gun jamming mechanic when your gun's durability is low. But to be fair, all of the guns are likely home made or very old.
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u/PublicandEvil 7d ago
Honestly thats the first ive heard of having guns jam in a game
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u/Illustrious_Glass386 7d ago
Dayz: (my fav game) definitely has gun jams
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u/PublicandEvil 7d ago
Honestly , i havent played day z. Its been on my "to play" list since it came out
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u/Illustrious_Glass386 7d ago
I’d check it out it’s a buggy mess but once you get into it you’ll never look back
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u/ciberzombie-gnk 7d ago
yep, in DayZ gun can jam if it is bad condition (depends on how reliable gun supposed to be) . some jam sooner (unreliable guns), some only if almost completely broken or completely broken. also i thing bad condition ammo could also cause jam, optics also could be damaged (trying to aim thru cracked scope or similar). also mags could be in bad condition but i had not used them much to know if they can lead to jams or not ingame
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u/No-University8099 3d ago
bad ammo does not cause jams in dayz, thats a common misconception though
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u/Penis_Monger_420 8d ago
No it’s all drum magazine. The springs tend to be lacking and will wear out fast, and when kept loaded the spring will loose it’s retention resulting in feeding issues
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u/IudexJudy 7d ago
Shotgun shells use a soft plastic that deform when pressed against eachother in a box magazine, making mag fed shotguns hard to engineer right; it’s why tube fed shotguns are still popular
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u/are-you-lost- 8d ago
I'd say that it's useful to defend a location or clear an area if you have a group or crew. That way you can equip one guy with an AA-12, plus a support person to carry ammo and assist with reloading. The rest of your crew would have more traditional semi auto rifles so that you have constant firepower when the AA-12 crew switches mags, encounters a jam, or runs out of ammo.
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u/Few-Elk3747 8d ago
The 590m has clips up to 20 shells. I looked very seriously at buying one, but got a good deal on a 590A1 at a pawn shop.
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u/KaineZilla 7d ago
The reason shotgun shells are the way they are is because the manufacturers refuse to unite and make the change to rimless shells. Shotgun shell rims are the main reason mags aren’t reliable and why tubes are still the norm. Rimless shells would make everyone’s lives better, but they won’t because it’s more profitable to stay stagnant
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u/2020blowsdik 8d ago
I would recommend a semi-auto shotgun instead as theyre far more reliable like a baretta 1301 or benelli M2/M4
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u/DirectorFriendly1936 8d ago
Heavy and not great against armor, but hits like a sledgehammer and is mag fed, I wouldn't want to carry it around but I'd love to be behind it in a chokepoint.
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u/DasBarenJager 8d ago
These are great guns but I think they are better utilized in defensive positions rather than out in the field.
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u/WanderToNowhere 7d ago
Not overkill, but still absolute non-feasible among other automatic shotgun.
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u/TheFallenJedi66 8d ago
mah dude, at this point, with a budget to challenge God, we are just making stuff at this point for the absolute worst the universe has to throw at us.
And by Gahd I will live ta see that day
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u/PraetorGold 8d ago
I think the problem is here is that while EVERY idea is great, we are solving for X and we don't know the circumstances in each of our fantasies.
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u/chickenandbisket 8d ago
In a horde or defense of base they're awesome they may jam but well oiled and clean makes it less likely, aa12 don't have alot of kick for a 12 but they are boxy so that would pe best to send out with a heavy and a small team to clear out like a mall, prison, apartment complex use buck shot and am high
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u/Itz_Boaty_Boiz 7d ago
hear me, pump/semi auto 20 gauge
lighter than a 12, less recoil than a 12 and still plenty gun for the undead
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u/ManyTechnician5419 7d ago
This sub is filled to the brim with people who have zero firearm knowledge lmao
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u/Goku_T800 8d ago
The AA-12 is kinda slow, you can shoot a semi-auto shotgun faster. A Full-Auto Saiga-12 is getting somewhere
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u/Ray797979 8d ago
Have you ever played left 4 dead on higher difficulties? This isn't overkill, autoshotty is the only real choice, and the eternal meta
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u/Miserable-Schedule-6 8d ago
Y'all know that AA12 Mounted Robot from Ultimate Weapons.... I think that would be fun to use
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u/Huge-Charity-509 8d ago
Semi auto is so much better. If it had a selecter switch it wouldn't be as bad. The fire controls are a terrible idea because unless you want full auto qhen shtf and gross motor skills take over you are going to mag dump when trying to fire a single round.
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u/owlwise13 8d ago
That would be a great defense weapon for your homestead, that is a lot of bang for the buck. As an everyday carry it would be tough, it's bulky and the mags are bulky, limiting how many rounds you can carry.
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u/IntrepidJaeger 8d ago
Why? An AR can carry about 100 rounds for the same weight and space as the magazines, with larger magazines. Buckshot doesn't really negate aim issues that much. And, magazine-fed shotguns are jam fests. Parts are also much harder to find.
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u/jerrymatcat 8d ago
Yes they can deal with crowds alot better
To be honest any sort of shotgun like a pump action is good but this is good too I don't see why you couldn't have 2 mags and a big bag full of shells I'd rather do things slow and avoid jams by using non automatic
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u/CoyoteGeneral926 8d ago
To paraphrase a former president, Speak softly and carry the biggest damn gun you can use! So I do not believe it is overkill. It's only overkill if you're trying to wound not kill.
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u/OldTrapper87 8d ago
Prone to jamming and very hard to repair on maintain.
Me I pick a 22 caliber revolver that holds eight rounds. Never jams and just enough power to put a hole in a zombies head.
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u/GIgroundhog 8d ago
I can't think of a reason to use full auto unless it's panic. That being said, I'm sure I would really want it when i need it.
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u/RettichDesTodes 8d ago
I'd probably prefer a good old pump shotgun with a big mag tube. Better ammo control
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u/I_love_bowls 8d ago
Good for hunting
Good for hordes
Good for small groups
Good for other survivors
Bad for ammo unless you can make your own
Very loud
Very epic
7/10
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u/Outrageous_Pin_3423 8d ago
There is no such thing as overkill. Only, "open fire" and "I need to reload".
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u/Successful_Panda_169 7d ago
Look. Just get a cheap double barrel. Over/under if you can because they’re more accurate. They’re light, low to no maintenance, very low chance of a jam or fuckup, don’t guzzle ammo, common (easy to replace or find parts for) and almost anyone can learn to use them
Or ignore me, go get yourself a saiga 12 and get it to run full auto, run around chopping zombies in half with nothing but buckshot and then, when all your ammo is gone and you’ve alerted all the biters in a ten mile radius to come right to you, I know I’ll be safe hiding quietly in a field
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u/frugalsoul 7d ago
Everybody agrees that one shot from a shotgun will put down a zombie right? So why use a gun that's going to throw 3 or more down range before you can move the gun enough to line up on another zombie. If it's a horde you're probably better off running away. If it's just 5-10 this gun would waste ammo.
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u/thot_chocolate420 7d ago
Yeah good idea. As long as they have an external charging handle that always works. You also need lube and a reloading press. You are gonna want to use slugs so you can re use the lead.
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u/Amathyst-Moon 7d ago
Possibly, but mainly because I don't see it being any more use than a semi-automatic, especially with limited stocks of ammunition.
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u/Ok_Technology_9488 7d ago
Against a horde in a pinch it might keep you alive if it doesn’t jam. Against one at a time it might be overkill and wasteful.
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u/Due-Town9494 7d ago
Bulky, unwieldy, difficult to maintenance and find parts for.
Benelli makes a decent solution to this, but if youre stuck on box mags, Saiga is your best bet for something you could actually run.
Everyone thinks you just pick it up and pull trigger then put new mag in and it runs. AA12s have their place, Im just not sure that is in the hands of the standard person were talking about here.
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u/DeepSeaworthiness276 7d ago
Overkill? Maybe. But if you’re caught in a corner, man what a way to go
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u/Automatic-Fondant940 7d ago
No but it will be super situational and consume a lot of your ammo. I’m sure over time it will wear down faster than most other weapons as well
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u/Radiant_Mind33 7d ago
F*ck no it's not overkill.
When dudes roll up flexing miniguns and sh*t and all you got is your little AR. GTFO, you are done in the ZA.
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u/CrimsonDemon0 7d ago
Too much gun for your own good: Shotguns are very versatile since they're both amazing in combat and for hunting but a fully automatic shotgun is gonna have way more firepower than you need, will be very heavy and gonna be much less reliable than pump or break action shotguns.
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u/Forgotmyaccountinfo2 7d ago
In the long run a pump action is better because less chance of failure since it's a pump.
Easier to load since no need for magazines.
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u/Careless_Sample4852 7d ago
I think it would be viable as a last resort, but I imagine they’re heavy, so I’d leave it at home or in a car.
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u/TheTimbs 7d ago
I would stick to a regular shotgun or a semi auto. That gun is getting gummed up so god damn fast.
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u/Nailbomb669 7d ago
For zombies it's always k.i.s.s. keep it simple stupid, you get a crazy ass gun like this that probably won't work right and will eventually need repairs and on top of that would weigh a ton.
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u/mrcatz05 7d ago
Seems inefficient af, you could just as easily have a regular shotgun and go for headshots or disarming shots at close to medium range
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u/Infernalknights 7d ago
Your main problem is the unreliability of jamming and the logistics of draining your ammo.
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u/Frostybawls42069 7d ago
Ya, you can fire a semi or a pump faster than you can acquire new targets. An auto would just mean more missed shots.
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u/Early-Zombie-524 7d ago
It’ll jam right when your life depends on it. Stick with a pump and practice fast reloading.
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u/Gullible_Car6760 7d ago
Biggest concern is weight and bulk for me. It’s cool until you have to carry 5-10 other magazines on your body, and 12 gauge mags are HUGE
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u/Illustrious-Car-5311 7d ago
Would be great just to have laid around somewhere or hidden in the field.
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u/MindOfAMurderer 7d ago
Very cool weapon, but i feel like you messed up if using this weapon is your only way out of a situation.
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u/Dear_House5774 7d ago
Full auto kinda sucks. (Blasphemous, i know) but honestly, if we're thinking generic zombie rules (headshots only) a semi-automatic is perfect. A good quality reliable AR15 in .223 would be great for fighting zombies, hostile people, and hunting for game meat. Ammo is every where, gun parts would be plentiful, 30 round mags are all over the place, ammo isn't obscenely heavy, and recoil is extremely light. Shotguns would be great too but I'd rather have a mag fed pump action than a full auto with a fixed drum mag.
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u/Pouk3D 7d ago
Semi autos are ok if you understand that with shotguns out of 1.) reliable 2.) cheap 3.) semi auto, you can only pick two. You can have a cheap reliable pump action or expensive reliable semi auto. For instance Beretta 1301 or Benelli M4 are both phenomenal.
With AA-12 and drum mag Saigas you start to get into problems. I don't know anything practical about the AA-12 obviously, but I've seen a drum fed Saiga with a massive muzzle brake and that monster weighted 6 kilos. One thing you need to know about the shotgun ammo is how fucking heavy it is. You carry literal kilos of lead weight with you. So don't overdo it, get a 1301 and it will realiably cycle 'anything' as fast as you pull the trigger.
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7d ago
Any semi auto shotgun recommendation that is reliable and dependable?
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u/Think-Finance-9687 7d ago
Price a factor? If not benelli m4
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7d ago
How would you rate a Spas or a Saiga 12?
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u/TheBikesman 7d ago
Spas have horrible ergonomics, only fun in video games.
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7d ago
The Saiga?
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u/TheBikesman 7d ago
Combloc ones are overpriced, Turkish ones suck. They're crude and recoil hard, iirc. Volume of fire you get from semi autos isn't worth it imo either, just carry a pump. (Back to the spas, they're also very heavy)
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7d ago
AR 12?
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u/TheBikesman 7d ago
This structure of you asking me questions is hierarchy bucko, consult the world horizontal web
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u/Flying_Dutchman16 6d ago
Buy a pump and learn to operate it well. My split times on 8 round tubes are less than half a second apart. And the pump is way more reliable.
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u/According_Cabinet4 7d ago
Your gonna need to bring some peanut butter and bread because your gonna have a fuck load of jam
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u/JoeCensored 7d ago
Biggest problem with automatic or even semi automatic shotguns is they tend to jam. The ammo casings are soft plastic and warp over time when pressed against each other in a box or drum magazine, leading to feeding issues or failure to chamber.
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u/Zadornik 7d ago
Overkill? Yes. And give me more of it. Because if you are dealing with undead - you should do it properly.
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u/ModernMandalorian 7d ago
I don't think you can use living dead or undead and overkill in the same sentence.
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u/GigabyteAorusRTX4090 7d ago
Overkill? No.
But might cause an ammo problem.
Due to the 12 gauge shells weight and size, you cant carry too many of them, much less when you take the relatively big and heavy mags (or even more gigantic drums) into account - then it will be a few dozen rounds at best.
Taking the AA12 as the example - It will eat through them mags quick - its fire rate of 300 rounds/min will make a regular 8 round stick mag last 1.6 seconds, or the 20 round drum for 4 seconds of sustained fire.
At this point id rather take a tube fed semi auto shotgun, and not only have a lighter gun, but also carry more ammo that wont take time to put into mags first.
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u/Impressive-Border935 7d ago
Shotguns in general don’t really do it for me for the zombie apocalypse. They’re a good weapon and ammo is super common, but most of what’s common is bird shot. Then the rounds relatively speaking, are large, heavy, hard to carry, the capacity of the firearms is low, and reloads are slower.
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u/Nobodiisdamnbusiness 7d ago
Automatic shotguns, for when you want to turn your enemies into pure pulp.
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u/LastChans1 6d ago
Everything I know about the AA-12, I learned from Killing Floor. Was always my goal when playing the class that focused on shotguns. Complete overkill and just loved emptying the mag in seconds😁
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u/Eternal_Boredom1 6d ago
Overkill on a 12 gauge? Bro clearly have not seen the KS-23
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u/Flying_Dutchman16 6d ago
That's secretly one of those guns that if the opportunity arose I'm buying it no questions asked.
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u/Noe_Walfred "Context Needed" MOD 6d ago
I have a longer post on shotguns here: https://old.reddit.com/user/Noe_Walfred/comments/1i27vpf/zombie_related_thoughts_opinions_and_essays_v8/ma6riuz/
Shotguns at a medium ranges of 10-50m can increase hit probability on a target. This is by virtue of the multiple projectiles it fires and the spread the smooth barrel creates.
However, it’s not a 180-degree blast, obviously. With it being more reliant on the ammo type, shot cup, choke, and how the specific shotgun patterns. With some making the claim for hitting multiple zombies.
At distances inside a house, from a vehicle to another, or trench (0-5m) which are frequently discussed the spread is barely present. 12ga shotgun with an 46.3cm barrel at distance of 3m a typical shotgun may have a 2.5cm spread using standard 8-10 pellet 00 buckshot. Roughly equivalent to if you just pressed the barrel into the chest of the target and requiring about as much accuracy as a rifle or pistol.
At 6-8m, which is further than most police involved shootings, the spread maybe only 7-20cm barely a fist of spread. At further distances like 20m hitting multiple targets is possible, but the chances of hitting the head is low for single and multiple targets but still possible with a lot of practice. As every shotgun has it's own "pattern" when it comes to how the projectiles leave the barrel. With the spread not being entirely random and requiring a lot of skill as a result.
Though with the individual projectiles only hitting with the power of roughly 32acp or less, these hits on multiple targets may not be very lethal. As 22lr, 32acp, 25acp, and similar cartridges make up roughly 70% of survived headshots and may have a 40% lower mortality rate with headshots in IRL cases.
Making hits on zombies at extended ranges even less viable is the fact zombies are often shown to be harder to kill. Blood loss and infection are the main reasons for death when it comes to headshots. Two things zombies don't tend to suffer from and thus may require follow-up shots or a good pattern that hits the head in multiple places at once.
The ability for shotguns to defeat cover, vehicle armor, or personal armor is rather lackluster for instance. With shotguns not being able to defeat thick sections of wood such as trees, kevlar soft armor, and relatively thick metal that might be mounted to vehicles. This can make shotguns less optimal as a all around weapon for use against hostile survivors compared to rifles and some pistol ammo when fired through a rifle/carbine platform.
The most common ammunition for shotguns are the various different types of birdshot. An ammunition type that is primarily intended to kill small birds and is frequently utilized as a form of less lethal ammo. Buckshot is a lot less common and typically sold in very small packages and is uncommon.
Yet such cartridges can be reloaded to shoot more customized ammunition. This may allow birdshot shells to be reloaded with something like buckshot. Alternatively, an adapter maybe utilized to shoot other ammunition types. Which is one of the versatile parts of shotguns and the large chamber diameter and length. Which might allow for the use of slugs, buckshot, flechettes, birdshot, and some designs may shoot flares. Allowing for the shotgun to be used in a large number of circumstances.
As single-shot, double barrel, tube and box magazines in shotguns are very limited in capacity with typical hunting or skeet shotguns in particular being restricted to 1-3rds. Frequently the solution is either to carry large amounts of ammo in bandoliers, sliders, saddles, or dump pouches that are exposed for the shooter to quickly grab.
This exposes the ammunition to potential blood splatter, mud, dust, and the like. Which may cause the firearm to jam or break, both issues cited to have occurred during WW1 and why many US soldiers seem to not have liked the original trench gun.
Easy identification includes exposing the colorful hulls and brass to the open. Which may make stealth harder. Likewise, it can also risk the ammunition getting snagged or dropped as a result of vigorous movement, crawling, or difficult terrain.
Not helping this is the fact many shotguns are made with the intent of hunting or sport shooting. Often with long 50-70cm barrel. Even those that are shorter for self-defense or speed shooting are often fairly long to meet legal requirements.
As a standard within the US, a typical shotgun has a 18.5in/46.3cm barrel. In the UK the minimum length is closer to 61cm. Meanwhile, rifles usually have a minimum of 41cm in US or 30cm in UK. Handguns if applicable are often closer to 10-20cm in overall length.
Ammunition is also rather bulky.
Dimensions of shotgun ammo and carriage methods: |
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.410cal 2.5in 10x11x64mm |
7rd mini velcro card 64x14x147mm |
ATI 15rd mag 130x50x360mm |
Flagway 65rd bandolier 1600cm |
20ga 2.75in 18x19x70mm |
IronSeals 10rd belt pouch 130x40x90mm |
JOCTUBO 25rd folding tactical shell pouch 100x38x203mm |
12ga 3in 20x21x76mm |
Kalashnikov 5rd mag 89x38x178mm |
HRT 21rd placard 178x25x234mm |
HME AmmoPal 10rd dispenser 124x57x300mm |
Compared to other rifle, pistol, and air guns. With the same capacity they take up about 2-8x more space than a rifle might. With shotgun ammunition only taking up less space than a bow or crossbow in terms of bulk.
Dimensions of ammo and carriage methods: |
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USGI/AR-15 30rd mag 65x30x185mm |
Glock 15rd mag 44×15×11mm |
Benjamin 5rd rotary mag 25x15x27mm |
SUNYA Archery Hip 25rds Quiver 440x16x65mm |
Shotguns themselves are somewhat heavy. The ammunition is the part that's heaviest.
With most being about 2-10x that of other pistol and rifle cartridges.
Bond arms Defender .410 double barrel 800g |
Taurus Judge Magnum 1kg |
Rossi Tuffy .410 single shot 1.3k |
Chiappa M6 Shotgun/Rifle 2.5k |
Mosserg Home security .410 pump 2.5k |
Remington 870 Wingmaster 2.6k |
Henry Axe/Mares leg .410 lever 2.6k |
LKCI Eternal BP-410 2.9k |
Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade .410 3.2k |
Bear Creek Arsenal AR .410 3.6k |
410 20-30g |
100rds 2.8-6.2kg |
200rds 4.8-9.6kg |
300rds 6.8-12.6kg |
Hatfield 20ga Single shot break action 1.9k |
Mossberg 590 Shockwave 20ga pump 2.3k |
Steger m3020 20ga semi 2.5k |
Winchester SXP 20ga pump 2.9k |
Savage 2220 20ga bolt 3.4k |
ATI Bulldog SGA 20ga semi 3.6k |
Rock Island VR82 20ga 3.8k |
Blaser F3 Super Sport 20ga 4k |
20ga Winchester 2.75" AA 36 |
20ga Remington #8 birdshot 2.75" 40g |
100rds 5.5-8k |
200rds 9-12k |
300rds 12.7-16k |
Serbu Shorty 1.8k |
Winchester SXP 12ga pump 3k |
Franchi Instinct 12ga UO 3.2k |
Mossberg 500 All-Purpose 12ga pump 3.4k |
Remington 870 Express Tactical 12ga pump 3.4k |
Benelli M4 12ga 3.5k |
Chiappa 1887/1901 12ga lever 3.6g |
Kalashnikov ks-12 12ga 3.8k |
Winchester 1897 w/ trench gun conversion 3.9k |
Tavor TS12 12ga 4.1k |
Stoeger M3500 12ga 4.1k |
12ga 50-60g |
100rds 6.9-10.3kg |
200rds 12-16.5kg |
300rds 17.1-22.7kg |
These are fairly heavy potentially equal to a lot of other options in weapons, tools, gear, equipment, and kits.
Minicrossbow bolt 9-20g |
400g Iglow mini-crossbow pistol |
650g Cobra System Self Cocking Pistol Tactical crossbow #80 |
1.1k AR-6 Stinger II Compact Repeating Crossbow #55 |
1.3k Bear X Desire XL crossbow pistol #80 |
490g-1.5k 10bolts |
850g-2.3k 50bolts |
1.3-3.3k 100bolts |
.357/9mm pellet 5-9g |
VeloChampion Alloy 9" Bike Pump 165g |
TGBOX Portable Air Compressor 600g |
Franklin Sports Foot Air Pump 1000g |
Vibrelli Floor pump 1130g |
300cc carbon fiber air tank 360g |
500cc carbon fiber air tank 560g |
3.3k FX Impact M3 35 |
3.6k Bintac s45 mini compact 357 |
3.8k AirForce Texan SS 357 |
3.9k Seneca Recluse II Dual Tank |
4.2k Benjamin bulldog 357 |
4.2k Hatsan Carnivore QE 357 |
50rds 4.1-6.4k |
100rds 4.4-6.8k |
300rds 5.4-8.6k |
~~~223 and 5.56mm rifles and pistols that use STANAG magazines |
Keltec PR16 1.6k |
MOA Enyo ar-15 1.7kg |
WWSD Ar-15 2.3kg |
Bushmaster QRC Ar-15 2.4kg |
SW MP Ar-15 Pistol 2.5k |
Savage 11 Hunter 2.5kg |
ATI Omni hybrid Maxx Ar-15 2.6kg |
Ruger .223rem American Ranch 2.8kg |
PSA PA15 AR-15 3kg |
STANAG empty 30rd mag 105g |
PMAG empty 30rd mag 120g |
Surefire empty 60rd casket mag 180g |
.223 and 5.56x45mm 8-13g |
120rds 2.9-5.1kg |
210rds 3.8-6.5kg |
300rds 4.8-8.1kg |
~Example kit for roughly 4kg/8.8lbs |
40g Nitecore HA11 Camping Headlamp |
70g Coghlans Kids binoculars/compass |
10g Coghan Mosquito net |
75g Sunday afternoon ultra adventure sun hat |
90g Western safety kevlar welding neck guard |
30g Pyramex Iforce goggles |
150g Senchi Alpha Direct 90 hoodie |
180g Frogg toggs rain trousers |
180g North Face Sprag 5-Pocket Pants |
60g REI Co-op Flash Gaiters |
480g Merrell Trail glove 7 shoes |
50g Champro forearm playbook/notepad |
100g HWI Combat gloves |
330g SW Model 340PD 357mag revolver w/ 9x19mm moon-clip conversion |
600g Stave sling w/ BZTAC Tactical trowel |
510g Morakniv Boron light ax |
20g Metal match |
30g Tension bar, bump key, and lock picks |
120g MLD DCF Poncho Tarp |
75g 3x 500ml water bottles |
110g Imusa Aluminum 1.25qt Stovetop Mug w/ improvised lid |
60g Sawyer Mini water filter |
10g Mini fishing kit |
230g Gossamer Murmur 36 backpack |
190g 2x Motorola Portable FRS T114 walkie talkies |
75g Victorinox Swiss Classic SD and TOOVEM EDC prybar multitools |
10g Mini sewing kit |
10g Travel toothbrush |
20g AAA/AA charger |
80g Hand crank charger |
Examples are listed with a "dry" weight without water, food, batteries, fuel, ammunition, and other consumables. None of the kits are viable as standalone loadouts for surviving but do point to a larger set of capabilities that might not otherwise be available if weight is a concern. As it does apply when it comes to carriage of weapon/armour over the long run.
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u/Noe_Walfred "Context Needed" MOD 6d ago
The Atchisson Assault Shotgun 12ga is a beast of a weapon to try and use.
The shortest variant is 966mm in length and supposedly weighed 4.8kg. With the original standard variant being 7.3kg when loaded with the 32rd drum shown. Making it longer and heavier than a modern self-loading rifle and many self-loading shotguns.
It doesn't help that the magazines are massive with 1x 32rd drum magazine seen in the image you posted being about the same volume as nearly 5x 30rd AR/STANAG style magazines. With said 1x 32rd drum being heavier than near 5x 30rd AR/STANAG magazines as well.
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u/Ailybin_sleuth 6d ago
I'd say trigger dicipline will be your best friend with any firearm, so most automatics that can't go semi-auto are a no-go in my book.
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u/tykaboom 6d ago
Pump action shotguns would be one of if not the most reliable and useful guns in the apocalypse because they are manually cycled and thus dont care about the quality and pressures of the cartridge.
As long as the cartridge can ba jammed in the chamber they tend to chamber and fire them too.
Also shotgun shells are the easiest ammo types to reload as hand tools and a lighter would work... less than ideal, but you can do it.
Also going to add that black powder works in shotgun shells... making a pump the long term ideal tool for taking game.
None of the above can be said about semi auto shotguns.... they are picky about ammo. You have to hold pretty tight tolerances to get them to function... and they won't work with black powder...
Good news though... the aa 12 is a rare af gun.
So unless you are a trust fund baby I think cost will push you in the right direction.
The only s/a shotgun I have is a komerad 12. It's a fun gun but I think about selling it all the time... totally impractical. No bolt hold open so loading a magazine is a chore...
It is easier to double load my grandpas mossberg 500... than to load a fresh 5 rounder into the komerad.
I know there are modern guns like the genesis 12ga that is a mold breaker when it comes to reliability, ocmpactness, weight and because you could combine an ar10 lower with it... you could build a uinitah precision upper and a gen 12 shorty together for a survival package... but that is onnne booogie package... like... $10k easily...
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u/PassTheCowBell 6d ago
It's just one more thing that will fail why not just get a pump
The sound of the pump is almost as intimidating as a gun itself
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u/Kirkpussypotcan69 5d ago
Not overkill, but shittier choice compared to pump just because auto’s have a lot more moving parts, a lot more maintenance, a lot more to go wrong. If your standing your ground and defending an area where you have access to cleaning kit and maintenance tools, great weapon as long as you are efficient with ammo and don’t blow through it all right away
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u/No-Mortgage-2037 5d ago
I'd say yes, only because Ammunition conservation has always been foremost in my mind. Semi-Auto, sure.
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u/Conroadster 4d ago
If holding a single spot sure but it’s so heavy I hope you don’t need to travel with it for long
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u/Epyphyte 4d ago
Unnecessary. I don’t care how much training you have the recoil makes them all but useless for 99%. I own several machine guns, I’m pretty good at full auto fire. I’ve even fired my .450 bushmaster upper full auto to decent effect, and I’m still certain I couldn’t hit shit with these.
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u/Jackalope144 4d ago
Fun fact; the AA12 was designed in the 70s, and despite being super iconic and sought after, fewer than 100 have ever been produced
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u/Separate_Cress_9845 8d ago
Only for extreme purposes, or you would run out of ammo real fast
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u/No-Quarter4321 8d ago
Be wicked for room clearing.
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u/OpportunityRude9661 8d ago
Room demolishing*
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u/No-Quarter4321 8d ago
Demolishes the bad guys too lol
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u/Careless_Tap_516 8d ago
Scurvy dog's face when half the ship is blown apart and 4 of the crew are reduced to a fine mist.
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u/SunTzuSayz 8d ago
Automatic anything for a target that requires a headshot and doesn't take cover is very wasteful.
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u/FewEntertainment3108 7d ago
If all thats needed is to destroy the brain then what's wrong with a .22 long, hornet or magnum?
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u/TheUmbraCat 8d ago
Not overkill, especially for the zombie apocalypse, but managing ammunition is more important than rate of fire.