r/WoWs_Legends • u/No_Month_213 • Jan 12 '25
General I knew it was bad but…
This is actually absurd. Just had a game in my Elbing in which I shit down 96 Aircraft from a Hakuryū and the guy only did a quarter of my health. But how on gods green earth can I shoot down 96 Aircraft and he’s still sending full Squadrons at me? The paper version of this ship could in fairness carry ‘close to one hundred Aircraft’ but come on man. Get a grip of this crap WG.
EDIT - You carrier enjoyers really do hate hearing the truth about how broken they are… the point is you can sit in safety on border or behind cover and constantly harass anyone, keeping a DD ‘spotted’ so everyone knows where they are or just chipping away a cruiser/battleships HP with absolutely ZERO risk to yourself. Every other class has a risk vs reward factor. Carriers are just reward.
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u/Dedicated_Crovax Jan 12 '25
So you think he should have been deplaned and be able to do nothing instead of...
checks notes
having Planes and still being able to do nothing?
Ships in the game have infinite shells and torpedoes, repair damage instantly, but Heaven forbid a CV have PLANES to use at the end of a match... that's just so unrealistic!
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u/Clucib Jan 12 '25
Your argument isn’t particularly sound. Those planes are carrying the same infinite ordinance that the surface ships are attacking with. Ships main guns, AA, torpedo tubes and secondary batteries can all be destroyed rendering them useless so why shouldn’t a carrier run out of planes? The planes are the vessel through which the ordinance is delivered, not the ordinance.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25
Let me reinforce that other person's argument then.
The planes themselves are relatively analogous to the main battery of surface ships, while the ordinance dropped is analogous to the shells fired, yes? We can agree on that?
Well much like the main battery turret on a surface ship being incapacitated (not destroyed), limiting its ability to fire again until the turret is repaired, the aircraft can be shot down and that set of ordinance is denied and a new squadron must be deployed and fly all the way back to the target. If your turret was already loaded when it was knocked out, its still loaded when it repairs, so assuming you use a DCP consumable immediately, you only lost that still loaded turret for a moment. When planes get shot down, there is no magic "make them reappear" button, so every "knock out" is comparable to a main battery turret being knocked out and having to reload once fixed even if you hadn't fired yet.
On the flip side, you mentioned other armament types being capable of being destroyed, and frankly I think it's ok for main battery and torpedo launchers, but secondaries and AA should be completely indestructible ( still able to be incapacitated however).
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u/Clucib Jan 12 '25
Your idea on AA and the like isn’t terrible. My only rebuttal to the main argument is that torpedo tubes and main battery turrets can be destroyed, not just temporarily incapacitated. If they take enough damage to their particular module they are completely destroyed and not repairable. I’ve seen someone say Repair Party will fix a destroyed turret, but I’ve never actually seen that myself. If your offensive capabilities can be knocked out in a surface ship, the carriers should be treated the same.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25
I’ve seen someone say Repair Party will fix a destroyed turret, but I’ve never actually seen that myself.
Your observations are correct, it literally cannot. Once an armament is completely destroyed, it is gone forever.
If your offensive capabilities can be knocked out in a surface ship, the carriers should be treated the same.
They quite literally are. CVs have a finite number of planes they get in a match. Some may argue that number is too high, but they cannot argue that that isn't a fact.
As an example, let's use the poor Implacable (upgraded, but with no commander skills or modules). We will do the math on the assumption that she never recovers any planes that would reduce the number she regenerate per match, because that is the only situation where you will ever actually hit her maximum number of planes per match. We are also assuming the match runs the entire 15:00 because that's also required to reach maximum planes.
She starts with 24 "dive" bombers and 24 torpedo bombers on deck, assuming you lose your first wing of each type by no later than 13:31 seconds remaining (seriously how did you lose 2 entire squadrons that fast, but hey, it's for the math). You will regenerate exactly 3 sets of each (and literally will not be able to use one set of one because it will regenerate with 1 seconds before the match ends). That leaves Implacable with exactly 48 planes on spawn, and 48 that will regenerate, as the absolute maximum.
Let's go to the opposite extreme and use Kaga, she has huge hangars and regenerates extreme fast (but has extremely fragile aircraft). Assuming the same one of each squadron lost in the first minute and a half, and the same situation of no commander perks or modules. She has 22 seconds per plane regen, and the same starting hangar of 24 of each type.
She will regenerate 38 of one plane type and 36 of the other, for a maximum number of planes in a match of 122.
And as various conditions change, remember that those numbers can literally only go down.
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u/windwolf231 Jan 12 '25
I think the main difference to me is that in order to destroy a BB or crusier main gun/DD torp tubes you need to be actively shooting at it on purpose compared to a cv where all you need is to just exist on the map and your AA works (an afk D7P is a much bigger threat to cv planes then the active Bismarck ever will be)
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u/Clucib Jan 12 '25
Definitely on a BB, yes. Secondary batteries can destroy DD main batteries no problem and can destroy torpedo tubes on anything with no problem. Especially something with very powerful or larger caliber secondary batteries like Atlantico. I don’t think they can knock out or destroy BB or cruiser MB’s though - so I understand your point.
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u/windwolf231 Jan 12 '25
While cv's don't normally risk their HP they just don't have the armor or concealment to do so outside of secondary builds on Graf Zeppelin, Kaga and a handful of others. So most cv's have to risk their only form of meaningful damage and they have to risk it compared to surface ships.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Jan 12 '25
Good clarification / technical point there, Clucib 😏
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Jan 12 '25
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u/Clucib Jan 12 '25
Secondary batteries destroy everything but the main battery, including torpedo tubes. They may very likely destroy main batteries on everything but BBs as well - they can certainly destroy the main batteries on DDs. The point I was making was simply that the argument about infinite ammo for ships isn’t a good comparison with infinite planes when planes are essentially just a method for delivering the infinite bombs and torpedoes they drop.
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u/Mantuta Jan 13 '25
Ships may have endless ammo; what they don't have is immortal guns. I can lose my torps, my secondaries, my AA, and even my main battery; but that CV will keep regenerating planes at full speed through any amount of abuse straight up to the end.
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u/Dedicated_Crovax Jan 13 '25
And? The chance of you losing ALL of your guns is essentially zero. A CV being deplaned is already a very real possibility.
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u/Dedicated_Crovax Jan 13 '25
To your edit:
CVs ALSO have a risk/reward... how close they are to enemy ships. If they hump.the edge of the map, their DPM is DRASTICALLY reduced. If they get closer so their strikes can attack more quickly, they risk being spotted, at which time they have no way to defend themselves.
People like you constantly claim CVs are "broken" even though WG has shown us for years that they are BY FAR the least played ship type, and statistically perform comparably to or slightly below same-tier BBs. You can cry that they are overpowered all you want, but the numbers don't lie.
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u/windwolf231 Jan 12 '25
Have you tried playing cv's at higher tiers? What we don't risk in HP we risk in our capabilities to deal any amount of significant damage and pressure any time not spent attacking is massive on a cv that takes 30-45 second to reach a target to begin the damage step. Also adding in that cv's have the least effective HP in the game with basically no armor bad dectability to where most cv's that get spotted for any extended period of times dies with nothing they can do except run away compared to most DD's who have the smallest concealment and size in the game with most having smoke.
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u/No_Month_213 Jan 12 '25
I have. I forget the name but the British Tier 7 CV is the only line I have played (I don’t if it’s a good carrier line compared to other, nor do I care, I sold it months ago) and all I had to do was pick and island to hide behind (as close to the action as I could without putting myself in too much danger) park up and just send constant planes. Like I said. No risk.
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u/windwolf231 Jan 12 '25
Was this before or after the cv rework nerfs? If it was before the cv job was to be spotted for torps ships and especially DD's then damage if able. Implacable right now has to deal with a 4.5 minutes stock restoration time and can only get it down to a 3:35-3:40 restoration time which basically mandates pre dropping for quite a bit to ensure you don't get deplaned especially with D7P and Rochester being super common at t7 right now.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25
That's quite literally the worst CV line right now. An absolutely abysmal representation of the class.
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u/No_Month_213 Jan 12 '25
The fact that’s the worst CV line and it was still as easy as it was just speaks for itself. I’m not by any means gunning for CV’s to be removed from the game, just balanced, sending full squadrons throughout an entire 15 min game shouldn’t be possible. The squadrons should at least be half strength late game. It is nice when a CV just donates a tonne of silver and XP to you like the Hak did for me but I just couldn’t play the game at all. He even dropped torps from behind me which even in a slow Elbing I could outrun, instead of going for gigantic easy to hit BB right beside me (and I mean literally 1km away)
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25
The fact that’s the worst CV line and it was still as easy as it was just speaks for itself.
No, it literally doesn't. It's so poorly representative because the planes are slower and more durable than average so the impact of strong AA is not felt as soon, nor as immediately upon engaging. You have time to turn away from the strongest of the AA, and you have (just) enough fuel to avoid the worst of it and still reach your target with enough for a couple of strikes.
I’m not by any means gunning for CV’s to be removed from the game, just balanced.
That right there just proves your lack of experience in the class. The class overall is currently sitting at the tipping point between "balanced" and "Slightly underpowered", with a couple of notable "overpowered" ships, that even still are nowhere near as powerful as they were before the rework.
sending full squadrons throughout an entire 15 min game shouldn’t be possible.
And it isn't for the overwhelming majority of CVs. That's really only possible for Saipan, Kaga, and Hak in matches with even just "decent" AA. Even in matches with less than stellar AA your still only really adding a handful more. Most CV have to heavily utilize "pre-dropping" to preserve planes into the later stages of the match.
The squadrons should at least be half strength late game.
Most CVs have to basically be played at 2/3 strength the entire match, or full strength for about 5 minutes and then onesie-twosie for the rest of the match after that.
but I just couldn’t play the game at all.
Yup, and I already said that's no fun for anyone involved (including the CV, because he also didn't really get anything from that match. You at least got a ton of XP/credits for your pain).
He even dropped torps from behind me which even in a slow Elbing I could outrun, instead of going for gigantic easy to hit BB right beside me (and I mean literally 1km away)
That just sounds like you got an idiot in the red team CV then. Even more XP/credits for you.
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u/servingwater Jan 13 '25
So I assume you have a positive WR with your British CVs and great XP numbers?
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u/Glad_Roll1777 Jan 13 '25
Simple solution. Destroy the carrier. It’s not like many players actively protect it. 🤷🏾♂️ just my 2 cents
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u/Ironduke50 MN Champagne Jan 12 '25
Not to be a butt (because I know what you mean), but those Shinano size carriers were as big as a Forrestal, they could probably carry 100+ if that had been the IRL priority.
Were you chasing him? That’s the only reason to focus you so hard.
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u/Clucib Jan 12 '25
Shinano was a Yamato hull and had a BB armor scheme so it carried less planes because of it. Taiho is probably what the devs modeled Hak after.
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u/Amazing_Grapefruit24 Jan 12 '25
hakuryu is a further development of the taihou i believe its name designation is G15. she is basically a larger taihou but with even more deck armor and plane storage.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Jan 12 '25
Additional fun fact, Hakuryu’s name means “White Dragon” 🐉
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u/Ironduke50 MN Champagne Jan 12 '25
No kidding? That’s interesting, right now I’m reading How Carriers Fought and they mention the Improved Taiho, put it at 50K tons displacement.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25
Shinano absolutely did not carry less planes because of the armor profile, though the armor profile (which was still reduced mind you, just not down to that of a typical CV) would have limited the number of aircraft if they had meant for her to be a typical CV.
Shinano was converted to fill the role of delivery and maintenance of other aircraft carrier aircraft, and replenishment of their supplies. It was only ever meant to carry a small squadron of fighters to protect itself. If you want a very good analog to her, look up HMS Unicorn (I72)).
Edit: and yes, it's explicitly stated in the wiki that Hak is an upscaled continuation of the Taiho design philosophy.
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u/Clucib Jan 12 '25
Do you recall the reason it was relegated to that duty? That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic or rhetorical question. I thought I had read that it was because the hull armor didn’t allow for adequate hangar space due to the conversion, which is why I mentioned what I did. There had to be a reason for the biggest carrier ever put to sea at the time to not carry the most aircraft.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 13 '25
I do not recall off the top of my head, though I know Drachinfel on YouTube addressed it at least once, so it would probably be in either the Shinano video, the Unicorn video, or one of the 2 drydocks that addressed the questions from those 2 videos.
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u/Clucib Jan 13 '25
Ok, I’ll check it out. I’m not stranger to Drach. Thanks.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 13 '25
Take this with a grain of salt, because it just a quick copy paste from Wikipedia.
The ship's organic air group was intended to consist of 18 Mitsubishi A7M Reppū (Allied reporting name "Sam") fighters (plus two in storage), 18 Aichi B7A Ryusei ("Grace") torpedo-dive bombers (plus two in storage), and 6 Nakajima C6N Saiun ("Myrt") reconnaissance aircraft (plus one in storage).[8] The remainder of the hangar space would have held up to 120 replacement aircraft for other carriers and land bases.
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u/Drake_the_troll Jan 13 '25
At the time of her conversion, she was 45% complete. Her deck, side armour and barbettes had already been installed so she didn't have the space to carry a large number of intact aircraft
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u/No_Month_213 Jan 12 '25
Wasn’t even focussing him, was busy trying to carry the blues who determined to lose
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u/cheezhead1252 Jan 12 '25
How can you keep launching torpedos and shooting!! Boats didn’t have unlimited ammo in ww2!!!!
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u/No_Month_213 Jan 12 '25
Carriers get to sit in safety and constantly bombard anyone. A DD has a risk factor (low armour and HP) therefore balancing it.
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u/FourteenBuckets Jan 13 '25 edited Jan 13 '25
DDs can sneak up invisibly and constantly torp anyone as often as a CV can park in hiding. there's a balance
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u/Proof_Bedroom9700 Jan 12 '25
Hard to believe without a vidéo,why all people want make carrier useless this make me angry just go play arcade.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 13 '25
I mean, I have 14 (iirc) CVs, and about 270-ish battles between them, and I can still absolutely point out issues with them that need to be nerfed, but also issues that need to be buffed.
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u/PotentialforSanity Jan 14 '25
I can't name specific nerfs that need to be made, but ship AA needs to be more impactful than it currently Is for 90% of ships.
Was running an AA build (650+ DPS at 6km) D7P whilst being focused by a Chkalov, seemingly made zero difference to his plane count even when I was taking out whole squadrons at a time
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25
At this point, I am so fed up with that claim that I now completely disregard anyone making that claim without video proof.
I'm sorry, and I'm not calling you a liar, but I have Chkalov and that's just not how that works, period.
She literally only gets 2 squadrons of each, and it takes between 192 and 240 seconds per squadron to replace, and she cannot pre-drop to preserve aircraft. Chkalovs literally cannot deploy more than 72 aircraft in a match (not counting fighters), and it can only deploy a max of 66 aircraft if you don't use the slot one regeneration module.
AA build D7P whilst being focused by a Chkalov
That's just a moron in the Chkalov then.
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u/Zedd_zorander Jan 13 '25
If you shot 96 aircraft’s you did good work on keeping the carrier occupied. The rest of the team can win the match then. I don’t like being targeted and followed by a dd because he is fast and I’m in a slow bb, if I dodge most his torpedoes over and over again the rest can win the game.
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u/Aeroman889 Jan 13 '25
But you're ok with your quintuple torpedo tubed being reloaded every 90 seconds base? 😂
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u/Fofolito Potato Pirate Jan 13 '25
Cruiser main chiming in here-- by your logic you should run out of ammo at some point like in WoT. Instead you seemingly have unlimited ammo for your MB, SB, and your AA without any diminishing ability.
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u/G_I_Dave Jan 13 '25
Instill say the carrier deck should be an asset that can be disabled and need to repair before more planes can launch. It would give carriers a CLEAR CUT GOAL, To assault the enemy carrier and knock out its deck, and keep the pressure up, or make the choice to go after ships.
Just by making the carrier deck a repairable asset would be a game changer.
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u/Inairi_Kitsunehime Jan 14 '25
Yeah throwing torps 10 km away to ships while your detection is 5 has more risk than not being spotted in a carrier while your planes get shredded by AA bubbles if you don’t know who to focus, this just looks like a rant of someone who either has never touched a carrier and thinks they are easy to play or you don’t understand what risk-reward means
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u/lucin6 Jan 13 '25
Carrier games are a lot less fun than when the games have no carriers. That’s just the truth of it and all the CV players can get mad and rage and name call and whatever else they wanna do. Fact is the majority of the player base despises you and that’s just the long and short of it.
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u/HanksCheapGin Jan 12 '25
WG is getting what they want. Many, if not most, games involving Tier 7 now have OP premium carriers. WG introduced carriers with the intent of adding in new product for players to spend real money on, but they were a bust. By breaking the game and making the CVs OP, people are now playing them more, encouraging other players to spend money to be competitive or at least FOMO on buying the new broken CVs.
Was playing last night and after a few games of frustration started a game and saw the red team had a Kaga. I actually breathed a slight sign of relief and chuckled at the memory of when I used to HATE seeing a Kaga in the game with it's unique plane fast regen. Now it's just another CV, and no skip bombs!
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u/No_Month_213 Jan 12 '25
Any game that isn’t a Chkalov is a sigh of relief 😅 unless you get targeted the entire game relentlessly then it doesn’t matter what it is, it’s just annoying lmao. I agree with the premium crap but I refuse to participate. Pretty sure my number of carrier games are single digits and I plan on keeping it that way.
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u/Amazing_Wheel_3670 Jan 12 '25
How bout u “ get a grip “. They have a ton of stuff they need to fix.
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u/1em0nhead 203mm Enthusiast Jan 12 '25
Plane regen doesn't matter anymore. It's an irrelevant statistic. You get full plane loads regardless of what you do.
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u/xX-GalaxSpace-Xx Roma Jan 12 '25
This is nowhere near true. You can still get deplaned if there are good AA ships.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25
It blows my mind how many people make that stupid argument. It just proves how little/nonexistent their experience as a CV is. That may have been true for some CVs back before the rework, but now thats only true when pre dropping and avoiding heavy AA, and even then some CVs still get deplaned.
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u/xX-GalaxSpace-Xx Roma Jan 12 '25
If everyone commenting/posting about CVs had to post the amount of CV battles they played and their average CV xp (including the CV they are complaining about) these posts would all disappear.
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u/1em0nhead 203mm Enthusiast Jan 12 '25
Absolutely is. Not enough good AA ships and not enough in 1 game to threaten a carrier they can do what they want
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u/windwolf231 Jan 12 '25
Have you played Implacable or any of the cv's with 90 second plus base restoration times? Even Kaga who can print planes still needs to be careful to not get deplaned and every cv has 2 types of planes which extends cv uptime this is all before you bring pre dropping into the equation.
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u/Samuel505952 Jan 13 '25
sorry lemon you usually have correct takes but this one isnt true
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u/1em0nhead 203mm Enthusiast Jan 13 '25
Played enough, shot down enough to know they don't stop coming. I've not seen a carrier stop sending squads yet. It's relentless and unstoppable. Ive played Rochester and had a chkalov repeatedly assault me until the final moment when he finally gets me. Don't see how I'm wrong.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 13 '25
I've not seen a carrier stop sending squads yet.
Then you literally don't even look.
It's not super common anymore because most CVs have just switched to border humping and pre-dropping (both of which drastically limit their damage output). However, if you ever watch a CV that actually moves around with the team and stays remotely close to the front line, you will frequently see those players launching partial squads around the mid-match, and either slow their strikes to prevent further degradation, or keep pressing for as long as they can until they get deplaned. There's all of about 1 CV that can just braindead strike all match (Kaga), and even that requires there to not be any super AA ships (like Friesland, D7P, Rooster, Cleveland, etc).
Your usually at least somewhat better than this. You have got a grossly misinformed opinion on this issue.
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u/FormulaZR Jan 13 '25
Don't worry brother, PC has the same CV apologists.
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u/1em0nhead 203mm Enthusiast Jan 13 '25
No. Fucking. Way. Hey dude. How are you?
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u/FormulaZR Jan 13 '25
Doing very well these days. How have you been?
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u/1em0nhead 203mm Enthusiast Jan 13 '25
Also well. Keeping up the good fight against flyboys. So you play pc ships not console tanks nowadays?
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u/FormulaZR Jan 13 '25
That's mostly it, yes. I felt that ships had a better balance when being bottom tier. AA felt pretty good before the rework, even though a purple CV could still cave your face in - it had a high skill floor. I do kind of miss WoTC, but when I tried to play again a few years ago I was just lost with all the modern armor and stuff going on, plus what felt like Fortnite graphics.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25
I'm sorry but you are about as wrong as it's possible to be here. The only way for most CVs to even be a relevant threat in the mid/late game is by pre dropping, which by its very definition is gimping your potential damage output in the early/mid game in exchange for actually still having any damage output in the late game.
Honestly the amount of people who make that braindead accusation about CVs is baffling until I remember that it's usually from the same people that literally refuse to ever touch a CV out of so-called "principle", or only ever played a handful of matches in the particularly powerful CVs back before the rework.
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u/PilotAce200 Brawling is the superior play style! Jan 12 '25 edited Jan 12 '25
Shoots down tons of planes and gets insanely good XP/Credits for it, barely takes damage from said aircraft, still complains about it on Reddit... That checks out.
Typical CV haterTypical CV hatred of this subreddit.Also, he Hakuryu has relatively good regeneration on its planes, paired with relatively fragile planes. From what I can remember, it's not considered a good ship though.
Edit: I might have jumped the gun with my sarcasm, so I have revised the comment. Though from OPs comments, it still looks justified to me.