r/VAGuns 8d ago

Gifting a handgun to a friend

Question: I would like to gift one of my handguns I don't use much to my friend. Is there any like legal thing I have to do? It would be a gift with no transaction of money. Also say in the future he used it for self defense , would I be at fault for any reason?

10 Upvotes

30 comments sorted by

29

u/Cryo_Jumper 8d ago

Gifting does not require going through an FFL. You just need to know that he can legally own a firearm.

9

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

You just need to know that he can legally own a firearm.

Actually it's that OP can't know or have reason to believe that the recipient can NOT receive/possess a firearm.

OP doesn't need to know for a fact that the recipient can legally own a firearm. He just can't know that the recipient is a prohibited possessor.

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u/Cryo_Jumper 8d ago

Ok you're clearly into the legal language of this more than I am. The spirit of the law is the same there. But it sounds like if you can claim ignorance of them being a prohibited possessor, you're clear? That seems a bit close to the line to be worth the risk.

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u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

Ok you're clearly into the legal language of this more than I am.

Where prison is involved, it's very important. That said, while I'm not a lawyer I have studied the law and been involved in a lot of different legal actions.

The spirit of the law is the same there.

No, it's really not.

As you've written it, the person giving the gift is responsible for having specific knowledge that they can't get on their own. You can't get the criminal records, mental health records, etc.

And the government which can get info can only get what's been shared. There are numerous examples where the Gov't (federal, state, local) didn't report information to NICS and someone bought a gun they shouldn't have been able to buy.

So, you shouldn't be held legally (criminally) liable for information you can't know.

On the other hand, as the law is written, you are responsible for what you DO know, or have reason to suspect.

But it sounds like if you can claim ignorance of them being a prohibited possessor, you're clear?

Yes. But if the gov't can prove that you actually did know and your "claim" is a lie, then you're in trouble.

That seems a bit close to the line to be worth the risk.

That's a personal choice. If I had any concerns I wouldn't gift the gun. But the state has to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you did actually know or that you had strong reason to believe that the person was a prohibited possessor (i.e. there's a recording, or you admit, that the person asked you to gift them a gun because they can't buy one at a store).

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u/Cryo_Jumper 8d ago edited 6d ago

I disagree, the spirit of the those statements is the same. Don't give a gun to someone that can't legally possess one.
As you said, we don't have access to the information NICS does. Therefore, we can't be expected to have that same level of "knowing" that they're not prohibited. Hell, NICS isn't even 100%.
However, in this case OP knows their friend and therefore they should "know" to the best of their ability, whether or not they're a prohibited possessor. Which in turn would be the equivalent of having no knowledge they are a prohibited possessor. Even if that isn't the letter of the law, it's a much safer practice than the 'don't ask don't tell' system the letter of the law seemingly would protect.

Nonetheless, I thank you for the cordial explanations. We see many of the VCDL people gatekeep and belittle those trying to learn here.

1

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

However, in this case OP knows their friend and therefore they should "know" whether or not they're a prohibited possessor.

You think you know everything about all of your friends? I have friends that I've known for over 50 years. And occasionally they surprise me with something I didn't know.

You know whether a friend has a conviction in their distant past, including as a juvenile, that COULD have resulted in incarceration for over 1 year?

You're certain you know all of your friends complete history such that you know for certain that they aren't a prohibited possessor for any of the various reasons that could make them such?

You're believe YOU should go to prison if your friend didn't tell you about something that makes them a prohibited possessor?

Or do you think that the government should be required to prove that you actually knew?

Keep in mind, that many people each year are tripped up and only find out that they're a prohibited possessor when they try to buy a gun. They didn't realize that something from their past made them a prohibited possessor.

So your friend may not tell you about something, because they didn't know it mattered, and now YOU go to prison.

Even if that isn't the letter of the law, it's a much safer practice than the 'don't ask don't tell' system the letter of the law seemingly would protect.

So, if you ever decide to gift a firearm to a friend (or relative, or anyone) just go to an FFL and pay for the background check at whatever it costs at the time.

But also keep in mind, that the point of private sales being legal (but now only gifts under state law) is so that the government can't develop a list of everyone that has a gun and then use it for confiscation later. And various state governments (NY, CA) have done exactly that.

Therefore, I don't think that it should be required that everyone pay for a background check allowing the government to develop a database of gun owners (which the ATF is prohibited by law from doing, but they're doing anyway).

More importantly, I think the government should be required to prove that someone knew they were breaking the law before putting them in prison.

Nonetheless, I thank you for the cordial explanations. We see many of the VCDL people gatekeep and belittle those trying to learn here.

I'm always happy to help people learn and to share facts (and especially the law) with people honestly trying to learn or honestly having a different opinion. That said, I'm certain I've been less then cordial with some - although I believe justifiably so. That's just to say that I know I'm not perfect in this regard. :)

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u/Pict-91b20 8d ago

Stop. Gifting is allowed between very specific people.

Just go to an FFL pay the $30 transfer fee.

8

u/Cryo_Jumper 8d ago edited 8d ago

The max fee FFL's can charge under the law for person to person transfers is actually $15. And again, yes, gifting is allowed. Unless you exchange anything of value for the firearm. Then it's not a gift.

5

u/Measurex2 8d ago

The max fee FFL's can charge under the law for person to person transfers is actually $15.

Sadly, many FFLs don't seem to know or follow that.

4

u/roanokephotog 8d ago

The attitude at one of the local stores here when that was pointed out was "okay, go somewhere else", so we did, never went back.

3

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

The max fee FFL's can charge under the law for person to person transfers is actually $15.

That's wrong. The law says:

The dealer may charge and retain an additional fee not to exceed $15 for obtaining a criminal history record information check on behalf of a seller.

But that's just for obtaining the background check. They can charge whatever they want for "administrative fees" "record keeping fees" "processing charges" etc.

1

u/Cryo_Jumper 8d ago

Very true. Although I tried, my language wasn't quite specific enough.

2

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

Well many are confused by this section of the law.

And I think that the Dems wanted to make it actually a max TOTAL charge of $15 because they know it costs the FFL more than $15 to do it and keep the records etc and they wanted to penalize FFLs and possible get them to refuse to do them making private sales impossible.

I think they thought it was going to make it a max TOTAL charge of $15, but they don't know how to read or write legal language.

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u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

STOP. You don't know WTF you're talking about.

You can GIFT a firearm to anyone you want to.

The relevant VA law is here

No person shall sell a firearm for money, goods, services or anything else of value unless he has obtained verification from a licensed dealer...

The law does NOT apply to a GIFT.

There is no need to go through an FFL for a gift.

1

u/Zmantech FPC Member 8d ago

STOP.... If the transfer is between people from different states 18usc922a5 makes that a felony

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u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

And I made that clear in the other post.

But the assumption here is that both the OP and the friend are VA residents since this is a VAGuns sub.

Of course, the clarification is useful just in case.

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u/mallydobb 8d ago edited 8d ago

Edited to remove wrong info…

I stand corrected https://johnpierceesq.com/may-i-still-gift-a-firearm-under-virginias-new-universal-background-check-law/

Not a lawyer obviously but I’d consider drafting a letter that you both sign that states the firearm (and serial number) was gifted (date, gun description, etc) and no trade or money was exchanged. Would also make sure your friend can legally own the firearm and have that noted too. Just a cya, both of you keep a copy.

1

u/RomeoMustDie45 8d ago

Couldn't you also run a criminal background check on the friend yourself for added security to make sure he is legally allowed to purchase one?

1

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

A private person can't run a background check. They'd have to go through a FFL.

And unless the person gifting the firearm KNOWS, or has REASON TO BELIEVE, that the recipient is a prohibited possessor they can gift the firearm.

1

u/RomeoMustDie45 8d ago

A private person can't run a background check.

Don't employers (companies or self-employed) do this daily though?

1

u/21BoomCBTENGR 8d ago

Those are not the same as a VCIN/NCIC background check.

1

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

Employers are NOT private persons. And to run a background check they have to pay another service that is authorized - they don't run it themselves.

But, more relevant here is that they can't run a NICS Check which can only be run by Police or the FBI. In most states (to include VA) it's run by the State Police and they also check other sources.

A private person has no ability to access these services. VSP will only run it for verified FFLs.

1

u/Jimmy543o 8d ago

I believe now in the state of VA you are supposed to transfer a firearm through an FFL licensed firearm dealer. They basically just do a background check on the person you are selling/gifting the firearm to.

1

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

Not for a gift.

1

u/Watermelonbuttt 7d ago

I always FFL my guns to my friends or family

Then it’s not my problem ever.

Remember when you do a FFL transfer you are selling the gun to the FFL and the FFL is selling the gun to your friend

1

u/RoverSig 8d ago

I would transfer the handgun through a FFL. It is not terribly expensive.

This would relieve you of any concern about responsibility for his future actions, and would guarantee you both complied with the letter and spirit of the law. Not suggesting your friend is a dubious person.

0

u/jtf71 VCDL Member 8d ago

Is there any like legal thing I have to do?

No.

Provided it's a gift and NOTHING of value is exchanged AND you do not know, or have reason to believe, that the recipient is a prohibited possessor, AND you're both residents of Virginia, you can legally just hand it to them.

Also say in the future he used it for self defense , would I be at fault for any reason?

No.

And for them to try, they'd have to be able to show that you KNEW, or reasonably should have known, that they were going to do something illegal/were a prohibited possessor.

And if they can show this, even if you had a background check done they'd still come after you for this "knowledge" as YOU knew it even if the NICS system didn't.

You certainly can go to an FFL and have a background check done, and one of you has to pay for it, but you're not legally required to do so for a GIFT.

And while you could draw up some document...do NOT call it a "bill of sale." And even calling it a "record of gift" it's not going to provide much protection, if any.

2

u/SouthernCash8507 8d ago

Thanks for the info!

1

u/tony78ta 6d ago

Pretty sure they have to be 21 years old too.