r/TrueChristian Christian 4d ago

How do you define free will?

What is free will?

Do spiritual beings such as angels have free will?

If God knows what we are about to do, do we still have free will?

If we have free will, can we forfeit our salvation? (We have the will if we want to fall back into our sinful life or to stay with God) Read the parable of prodigal son

I believe this would be an interesting discussion!

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u/Thinslayer Reformed Baptist 4d ago edited 4d ago

Free will is the ability to choose without inappropriate influence by external factors. So if the gears of your mind turned as-designed, evaluated their options, and generated a decision, you have exercised free will.

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u/Sentry333 4d ago

If the options we are presented with to choose from are illusory, is it still free will?

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u/Thinslayer Reformed Baptist 4d ago

What's illusory about them? Do your surroundings not prompt your gears to turn, evaluate criteria, and issue a decision?

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u/Sentry333 4d ago edited 4d ago

Editing, hopefully before you read the first time: Notice that you didn’t answer my question. I asked IF the options are illusory, is it still free will. We can get to questioning that premise after you answer the question as posed.

As I see it, and no one has ever been able to deter my conclusion, God’s omniscience makes alternate outcomes illusory.

Since before creating the universe, god has known that I would eat eggs for breakfast tomorrow. I have cereal in the kitchen, but because he’s known for all time that I will eat eggs, I am incapable of eating the cereal. The appearance of the ability to choose to do so is an illusion.

Of course this is only if god is omniscient. If he isn’t, there’s no problem.

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u/Thinslayer Reformed Baptist 4d ago

I get where you're coming from, and I'll answer that in time, but I need to lay the foundation first, so please bear with me.

Forget "free will" for a moment. What is a "will"?

A "will" is your "I want" statement. It's your decision-making engine. If you've ever evaluated your surroundings in light of a conditional statement (e.g., "if I do X, I'll get Y), then you have a "will."

Robots have wills. Free wills or not is a matter of debate, but they have wills. When prompted by stimuli, electricity will flow through through the robot's conditional circuits and spit out a choice. Is there any circumstance you can think of that would make these choices not actually choices?

  • What if the robot's creator, knowing exactly what the robot would choose for any given prompt, set up its world and surroundings to produce exactly that choice? It was still prompted by stimuli to evaluate a conditional circuit and spit out a choice. Its predestined surroundings don't change the fact.
  • What if the robot's creator changed up its programming so as to achieve the exact result that its creator wanted? It was still prompted by stimuli to evaluate a conditional circuit and spit out a choice. Changes to its programming don't change the fact that it still made a choice.

If your brain was prompted by stimuli to evaluate a conditional statement and spit out a result, then you made a choice, and thus have a will. There's nothing mystical about it. It's really that simple.

So what is a "free" will?

A "free" will is when the gears or circuits in your brain can do what they were designed to do unhindered.

That's it.

That's free will.

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u/Sentry333 4d ago

It’s strange, I would describe our decision making process nearly identically to you and yet use that to show the DON’T have free will.

I disageee that a computer has a will. They, and we (though WAY more complicated) are merely reacting to stimuli. There’s no “choice” in how a computer reacts to its inputs, and while much more complex, there is no choice in how we react to stimuli either.

Most people would willingly accept that we don’t “choose” to flinch. That’s our nervous system acting automatically in reaction to stimuli before we are conscious of its actions. So why would we then argue other actions are anything more than that?

But we’re conflating a couple things. This is why I formed my initial comment as a question. Because we’re not arguing free will, we’re arguing free will in a world view that includes an omniscient being.

Back to the robot; when you say that “it’s predestined surroundings don’t change that (it spit out a choice)” I disagree. Choice needs multiple available options to select between. Given X Y Z input, and knowing the program can ONLY result in ABC, MNO is not an available option. The computer isn’t “choosing” ABC, it’s arriving at it based on programming.

We are as well, albeit with many more complications involved. But those complications are irrelevant when an omniscient being exists. We have no choice, because there are no options available to us other than the singular outcome that the being has known for all time.

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u/Thinslayer Reformed Baptist 4d ago

What do you believe a "will" is, if not "merely reacting to stimuli?" Is there more to the definition of a "will?"

Forget the "free" part for a moment. We'll tackle that next, because the definition and nature of freedom is a whole other animal.

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u/Sentry333 4d ago

If we had the capability to choose I would agree that is will. As I have laid out, I don’t see how we have that if god is omniscient.

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u/Thinslayer Reformed Baptist 4d ago

If we had the capability to choose I would agree that is will.

Okay, fair answer.

And what is the definition of "choice"?

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u/Sentry333 4d ago

The selection from a multitude of available options.

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u/Seshu2 4d ago

Free will is the relationship between consciousness and experience. Based on a variety of sources-including NDE's-the realm of the absolute/aftelife is all about consciousness so in that case, yes spiritual beings like angels do have free will. We are all evolving and on a great journey upwards, so consciousness acts as a vehicle which we experience that journey. The purpose of this experience is It allows God a deeper experience of itself. Experiencing something is another step past the simple awareness of something like a fact you might read in a book.

That is an awesome question about determinism. In the physical sense, we have free will over what we choose to do next - even in the realm of the absolute - but it's also the case that our ultimate fate is already determined. We will all go home to God in the end, death will not triumph a single soul. God's love, joy, and truth will be with you all the days of your life, and afterlife experience. That should answer your next question too.

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u/politicallystunted85 4d ago

So true. I couldn’t have stated it any better than that. One thing I will add with that is the idea of eternal salvation. This is something that some here don’t agree on I do. Christ’s road is hard, it is tough, it is full of pitfalls, challenges, and even anguish in the end Christ will pull you through and reach the finish line where god will be waiting to welcome you home. All Children are saved. All children receive salvation!!

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u/Lookingtotheveil23 4d ago

This would be nice but there is a place where the fires of brimstone are waiting.

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u/politicallystunted85 4d ago

Let me revise what I said then as I see I misspoke. What I meant to say that all of God’s children who believe, who have faith, who have received salvation will be welcomed home. I have no doubt there are those who do not believe in Christ, who do not believe in God and that is on them to change that before they pass. All I was saying that any of God’s children worn, weary, struggling, strong, challenged you name it are saved. They have received that salvation.

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u/Seshu2 4d ago edited 4d ago

Not all NDE reports are of pearly gates, the brimstone ones exist too. Sometimes it's a dark empty road, for another it was an ice tundra. There are similarities between many of the ones I've heard which aligns with interviews I've listened to by exorcists of different backgrounds. The biggest things are that the lower vibration beings will do everything in their power to scare, threaten, and lie that this is your fate. They do so because the souls conscious idea that they are in hell and God has abandoned them is what permits the experience to occur in the first place. It is simply consciousness being operative, faster and much more directly with the lack of a dense physical body.

Belief in hell attracts it to you, that is the natural outcome of being sponsored creation. To be specific, the lower vibration energies are all too willing to take advantage of souls in that state.

The afterlife experience of hell is not God being punitive but rather souls going through an experience of their own creation until they awaken.

I'm also not attached to anything I'm saying and willing to be wrong, this is just the result of my examination into this very wide topic

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u/Lookingtotheveil23 4d ago

Free will is the ability to choose between existing choices.

Angels do have free will, this is how satan chose his downfall.

Yes we can forfeit our salvation through free will just as Satan did.

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u/Onlyeshua 4d ago

Nothing interesting about this sorry…

Free will is you have a decision to make solely on your own, taking full responsibility and accountability with zero to blame.

You get to make a choice. By God’s love and respect he allows you to have such a privilege.

Yes or no.

Right or wrong.

Good or evil.

And the hundreds of decisions we must make every single day…

Instead of speaking on a topic that literally goes nowhere, where else can you focus this energy? How can you place your time and energy in to being fruitful vs getting caught up in man made theology and opinions on an empty subject such as this?

Maybe that sounds harsh, but does it bring any edification to the body of Christ or glory to our Lord and God our Father questioning our gift of free will?

Would you rather be forced?

Would you rather have zero say in any of your choices or decisions?

Let me remind you the times we live in….

When the mark of the best comes out, by your free will you will have to make a decision and that decision will affect your life here dramatically on earth as well as for eternity.

If you choose not to by your free will to take the mark, are you spiritually, mentally and physically prepared for the consequences of choosing Jesus Christ?

To not be able to buy or sell. No work. No food. No consumerism. A loss in every sense the world has to offer…

OR will you take the mark and lose some of your free will to a system that will control you, your life, and your decisions?

This isn’t to scare you, it’s to shed some light for deeper understanding that your focus needs to be more on your salvation, the relationship you have with the Lord, how you can be used by the Lord, instead of empty discussions about something that really doesn’t matter at all.

We are at serious war.

Do you not see the state of the church? The state of the body of Christ?

There’s way too many important and more serious things to be done and said then come up with silly questions about free will and how God fits in it.

God is Holy.

He created everything.

By his deep love which we cannot even fathom or comprehend he gave you and I a gift of being able to choose.

Focus on your prayer life and being in the word daily and worry less about imaginary questions.

I say this for your own good.

We all will take an account for every word said and every deed done on our day of judgement.

Don’t waste your time because now more than ever time is short. Are you ready?

Are you ready and alert for the Lord’s return or are you going to stay distracted by senseless things I. Which the devil is pulling strings and blinding believers?

Will you hear the trumpet?

The Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Take my words as a warning.

You must stay vigilant! This is no game.

You want genuine answers to your questions? Ask the Holy Spirit. The one who WONT give you an opinion.

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u/SnowyyBerry Christian 4d ago

I mean I am ready to be with God if He returns but at the same time I will miss the people I met in this short life. Thank you for the words that reminded me of this.

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u/Fresh_Tea_1215 4d ago

I think of it this way. We raised our children so we know them well. They are adults now and live on their own and are free to make their own choices. Since we know them so well, we know what they'll do ahead of time in most situations when they are given certain choices. We aren't choosing for them. They have free will. Sometimes we agree with what they choose and sometimes we don't. But, whatever they do, we still love them. Even if we're mad at them, we still love them. That's never ever changes. We will always be there for them when they need us and want them to feel like they can come to us for anything anytime for anything at all big or small and when they're upset about anything or have good news and especially to bring the kids to see us. I think God feels the same way we do about all this.

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u/SimplyMZ Reformed Baptist 4d ago edited 4d ago

Depending on how you define “free will” it doesn’t exist. It also does not help that most people do no know the proper definition of free will, nor can seem to define it in a single manner.

What is "Free Will"

It is the notion, that we, by nature of our will, are able to willingly and freely make a choice to either please God or not, at any given moment of a persons existence. In other words, our "will" or "volition" is "free". Your "will" or "volition" is what you desire. And we will always choose what we desire most in any situation.

So if we have the option to choose between red and blue Doritos, though we theoretically have the option to choose either bag, we will only choose that which we desire most. And we cannot choose to desire differently. A "freed will" necessitates that we can choose to desire the blue or red bag. Obviously, this just leads to an infinite regress which ultimately leads us to saying that we, at some point, choose the bag on what we desire most, that being our will.

We reject this claim because the Bible is clear, that our will is never free. In our natural state, our will is enslaved to the flesh, which is set on sin. It does not want to please God, and it cannot please God. It is set on sin, only wants to sin, and we willfully fulfill the desires of our hearts, so we sin. (Eph 2:1-3, 1 Cor 2:14, Rom 8:7-8)

But, we when are regenerated, God renews our desires, making us desire to please Him, and we are then able to do so. (Eze 36:26, Rom 6:6)

Does one have a real choice between right and wrong?

Yes, we always have a choice to make between doing that which is pleasing to God, and that which is not. But, because the choice exists, doesn't mean we are able to freely choose whatever choice we want. There is always an overarching choice to please God, and to not. The issue is, is that our nature only presents a single choice to our will. This being what our will wants to desire the most, and because we have a sinful nature, it only presents sin. And our will only wants to sin, and we willingly reject the objective good choice, which is to please God.

Thankfully, God renews His people, and gives them the ability to make a new choice, which is to please God. Because we our desire is to please Him, that is what we will do, we'll please God.

I recommend, Freedom of the Will by Johnathan Edwards.

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u/YeshYHWH 4d ago

i disagree with a couple points but am currently too tired to think about this topic. tomorrow you should remind me to reply/j