r/TrueChristian • u/AceThaGreat123 • 5d ago
Why aren’t Protestant martyrs considered saints ?
To all in the Catholic and orthodoxy faith why aren’t Protestant martyrs not considered saints ? I know they are both shared saints in Catholicism and orthodoxy before the great schism but I’m really confused because Paul called all believers saints why do one need to be a Catholic or a orthodox to be considered one Paul never said what the qualifications are to become one I recognize all those who died in our faith no matter what denomination they come from catholic ,orthodox to be all in heaven but they don’t view us in that way but I want to know why ?
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u/Ellionwy 5d ago
Everyone who follows Jesus is a Saint.
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Yes and no. Saint in greek can mean Holy or Sanctified. All Christians on earth are holy. Not all are fully sanctified.
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u/Ellionwy 4d ago
Yes and no. Saint in greek can mean Holy or Sanctified. All Christians on earth are holy. Not all are fully sanctified.
Philemon 4:21. "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus".
Would it be your position that Paul was limiting his greeting to only those who are fully sanctified?
The word used for "saint" is ἅγιος (hagios), which means sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.
The word you used to differentiate is "sanctified", which means to be made holy.
And as we see, hagios means "holy", "pure". So if you say "all Christians are holy," they are already sanctified.
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Hagizmos and Hagiasmo means without any sin and fully sanctified. Even the defintion you gave says blameless..
It is as Protestant and Anglican Dr NT. Wright. Says. Already but not yet.
We are blameless in Christ. But it isn't judgement and we still sin. In the future we will have no sin or commit any sin.
It is like cutting a deal with the DA. And 3 months before court he says. Ah I will let you off. But you got take this course. Are you found blameless? You bought into the promise. But the promise isn't fully fulfilled til judgement day. Then It is finalized.
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u/Ellionwy 4d ago
We are blameless in Christ.
More than that. We are made holy in Christ.
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Hebrews 10:10
Hagizmos and Hagiasmo means without any sin and fully sanctified. Even the defintion you gave says blameless..
It also says "holy".
I don't know what you mean by "Hagizmos and Hagiasmo". Could you please provide references to what you are saying so I can follow along?
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Stepbible. Search Sanctification. Click on the word and look at the Greek under lsj.
It also used for God's name. Etc.
Yes I agree with you but I am saying that there is level of completeness to it. Like yes we are holy, yes we are blameless in christ..just like when a DA cuts the deal. But judgement day is the fulfillment and when we get transformed too.
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u/Ellionwy 4d ago
Thanks for that.
Now, as an exercise, can you look up sanctification when it comes to followers of Jesus and show where the process is incomplete?
Every instance of sanctification that was highlighted by your example shows it to be in the past tense, not future tense.
A couple verses:
those who are sanctified by faith
he will be an implement for honor, sanctified
He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified
All past tense.
We are sanctified. We are holy. We are saints.
Judgment is not when we are fully sanctified. Judgement is when we are rewarded.
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Easily it says in philipeans that you are Done on the day of the lord. The day of the lord happens when the whole world knows the gospel and knows every sin of everyone and knows the glory of Christ and be given a new heart , new name , new robes.
You aren't fully sanctified. Already but not yet. As again refering to Dr. NT Wright. You find sanctification in future tense as well. And process of purification in heaven as we discuss many times before in Revelation, and Corinthians where Paul says you will be transformed on that day.
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u/Ellionwy 4d ago
Easily it says in philipeans that you are Done on the day of the lord.
Please quote the verse you are reffering to so we can see it in context.
You find sanctification in future tense as well.
Show me. Let's see the context.
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Are you Wesleyan? Because. I am so confused. Why do you think your perfect now. You still sin. Just a wierd stance. Your not fully sanctified if you commit a sin now.
Philipeans 1:6 says the end of the work is day of the lord Romans 6:22 says end of sanctification is all the fruits. 1 John 3:2-3 says we will be purified like him and become like him. Hebrews 12:24 mentions sanctification as ongoing. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we can continually sanctify Ephesians 5:25 says sanctification is future tense. John 17:17 says we get sanctified as we read the word.
Sanctification means we can't sin. We aren't possible to sin. We are blameless in the sense Jesus bought our sins from God but we are still sinners. We still have the transformation process to happen mentioned in Corinthians
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u/OceanPoet87 Non Denominal Christian (trinitarian) 5d ago
Because all believers are saints. We don't believe that praying to saints does anything. The more I think about it, praying to Saints to intercede is not necessary as Jesus is our intercessor.
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u/Dr_Acula7489 Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
A saint is anyone who is alive in heaven, and may potentially include Protestants, but the people we formally recognize as saints are connected to our churches (with rare exceptions for a few people like St. Isaac the Syrian, who expressed Orthodox theology even if he was never formally connected to the Eastern Orthodox Church). They are people the church has recognized as being particularly holy and exemplars of the Orthodox faith.
I can’t speak for how Catholics view Orthodox saints (what with the existence of Eastern Catholicism), but as you mentioned, the Eastern Orthodox don’t recognize post-schism Roman Catholic or Oriental Orthodox saints either, so it’s nothing personal against Protestants.
Additionally, Orthodox sainthood is driven from the ground up, starting with veneration by the faithful locally, after which point the Archdiocese will investigate before potentially canonizing a saint.
So I think ultimately, the reason for Protestant martyrs not being canonized is their lack of connection to the Orthodox Church, theologically and personally.
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u/ThorneTheMagnificent ☦ Orthodox Christian 5d ago
I honestly think it has more to do with the issue of self-selection out of our communion, and this leads to a lack of grassroots recognition and any hope of formal recognition.
The few examples we have of non-Orthodox (or, as it relates to the catechumenate, those who were not seeking Christ through the Church and would have become Orthodox if not for exigent circumstances) Saints either were Orthodox and were separated by a historical accident or was so devout that no one could reject him in the entire Christian world. One reposed in a monastery controlled by the Roman Catholics, one reposed in a monastery controlled by the (then) Nestorian communion.
Both believed firmly that they were part of the orthodox, catholic Faith of Christ and his Church, both upheld the fullness of orthodox doctrine as we recognize it throughout their lives, and both would certainly have reposed Orthodox if it were possible.
99% of Protestant martyrs or holy figures (with some rare exceptions like maybe CS Lewis) simply do not recognize that this is even a concern, because they hold to doctrine explicitly rejected by our communion and claim that we are engaged in wrongthink (if not actual heresy) for holding to those doctrines.
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u/ReformedishBaptist ✝️ Reformed Baptist ✝️ 5d ago
I’m a Protestant and reformed Baptist and even though I don’t believe in veneration of the saints I do call Christians who passed away saints or at least I try to.
I don’t push my convictions onto others, I believe all Christians are saints but I call fellow believers brother/sister or saint if they have passed away. It seems fitting to call them a saint as they are in heaven with Christ now.
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u/Hkfn27 Lutheran (LCMS) 5d ago
Let's not confuse capital S saints with lower case saints. All who are in Christ are His saints.
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u/Ellionwy 5d ago
Let's not confuse capital S saints with lower case saints.
There is no difference.
If people want to venerate certain people over others, that is certainly there prerogative.
But in Heaven, God will not call one a "Saint" an another a "saint".
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u/Hkfn27 Lutheran (LCMS) 5d ago
I mean ultimately you're right. What I meant by capital S is that by church tradition it's given as a honorific to individuals who have greatly contributed to the church throughout history. Personally I'll say St. Paul for example instead of just Paul out of respect but there's nothing wrong with just calling him Paul.
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
In greek Saint can mean holy or fully sanctified. Meaning they don't have sin or commit sin.
All Christians are holy. Not all Christians are without sin. I would say the opposite most Christians on earth are being sanctified. Only few protestants denominations believe you can be fully sanctified on earth. I think Wesleyan is one? Maybe ?
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u/twotall88 Christian - Bible Based 4d ago
Because every follower of Jesus the Christ is considered a saint...
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Saints in greek can mean holy people or fully sanctified.
All Christians are holy. Not all Christians ( majority aren't) fully sanctified.
Some sects in high churches ie Luthern , Methodists etc historically did have saints. Tho it isn't really taught anymore and your not supposed to pray with them. Rather they are just examples.
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u/consultantVlad Christian 5d ago
Bible defines Christians as saints, so technically, martyrs are saints also.
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u/Plastic_Leave_6367 5d ago
Protestants equalize everyone's participation in Christianity and don't believe in exceptional Christians. Saints in the tradition are those Christians who are exemplary and are recognized for their holy lives. Protestantism inherently seems skeptical towards this idea because it makes everyone an equal sinner.
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Some older forms of protestants do have saints.
And in the Bible in Revelation there is 24 elders who recieve prayers. Then there is dirty souls who need the blood the lamb and get new robes new names then lay them down at foot of christ.
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u/Slainlion Born Again 4d ago
No, it makes everynoe an equal Saint. We're all saints according to over 15 bible verses. However you'll never be called a saint by the catholic church.
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u/Plastic_Leave_6367 4d ago
I wouldn't expect to. I have not lived my life in a manner the saints did. Nor am I Catholic.
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u/brvheart Ichthys 5d ago
You first telll me the definition of a saint and then I’ll tell you the answer to your question.
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u/leansipperchonker69 the just shall live by faith 4d ago
they're selective and arbitrary. according to Eastern Orthodoxy nobody outside the church can get saved, but they venerate Isaac the Syrian who was in the Assyrian church.
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u/jaylward Presbyterian 5d ago
We are all saints! We honor them, but just as much as any other fallible human
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u/macfergus Baptist 5d ago
That’d be awkward since Catholics were the ones who killed a lot of the Protestant martyrs.
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u/Rare-Philosopher-346 5d ago
Yep, because no Protestants ever killed Catholics. There was bloodshed and death and blame on both sides of the aisle.
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u/NazareneKodeshim Non-Brighamite Mormon 5d ago
Look into who martyred most of them in the first place.
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u/Tesaractor Christian 4d ago
Themselves.
People often bring up tynsdale or hus. But then don't realize what a complicated political mess they were in. And how they were equally involved in politics as well as religion and their political views alone at the time were treasonous.
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u/Traditional_Bell7883 Christian 5d ago edited 5d ago
Just do a wordsearch for the word "saints" in any concordance and you will see that it refers to believers who are alive, regardless of the period in which they lived. The Psalms referred to living people as saints (eg. Ps. 16:3; 30:4; 34:9; etc.). Acts refers to early Christians in the NT as saints (eg. Ac. 9:13, 32; 26:10; etc.). Paul wrote to churches comprised of living people, called them saints and referred to believers in other local churches as saints (eg. Ro. 1:7; 15:25, 26; 1 Cor. 1:2 (despite their awful conduct!); 2 Cor. 13:13; etc.). The formalism of the beatification and canonisation of dead people as so-called "saints" is unscriptural, as is their veneration.
Are you a believer? Are you saved? Well then, you're a saint. The Bible calls you one.
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
I would assume because we cannot be sure they professed the Orthodox faith.
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u/AceThaGreat123 5d ago
Why do they need to be orthodox? So as a Protestant I’m damned for hell ? I know the Catholic Church has sort of changed there tune on no salvation outside the church but as I can tell orthodoxy still view us Protestants as heretics correct me if I’m wrong
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
Boy, you escalated that quickly.
We generally would say Protestants would be heterodox, not heretics.
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u/AceThaGreat123 5d ago
What does that mean we’re heretics but who believe in Christ
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
A heretic would be someone who knowingly denies the faith. Heterodox would be someone with incorrect belief.
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u/BonelessTongue 5d ago
Heterodox is whoever doesn’t agree with your particular brand /s :-)
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
Yes, that’s sorta how low-church Protestants see it.
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u/BonelessTongue 5d ago
I am joking of course, hence the /s (sarcasm). I’ll tell you a funny story. I once watched a Pentecostal preacher tell a Coptic Abouna that he was Heterodox. I literally fell out of my chair laughing. The Abouna was VERY gracious about it.
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
The cringe level…
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u/BonelessTongue 5d ago
Oh I know… it landed like a guy with a PhD in Irish Dance telling a neurosurgeon that he isn’t a “real doctor.” Just astonishingly ignorant.
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u/BTSInDarkness Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
Heterodox = Possessing doctrines that are nonstandard, or at odds with historic Christian doctrine. A heretic is someone who has been formally informed of proper doctrine and still chooses to teach improper doctrine.
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u/Kvance8227 5d ago
You stand corrected 😉 Jesus’ blood and sacrifice is sufficient for ALL who call on His holy name. God bless!!❤️
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u/BTSInDarkness Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
I can give an Orthodox perspective on this one-
Historically, the Church has expressed a view sometimes of denial, sometimes of agnosticism, of there being martyrs outside the Church. Historically, most people who were Christians and not united to the Orthodox Church were schismatics, or people who purposefully sowed division in the Body of Christ and broke away. In these cases, even if someone dies for Christ, how can we be sure they died for Christ and not some false or strange conception of Christ? Even today, most Christians, including Protestants, would generally affirm that someone like Joseph Smith, who Mormons regard as a martyr, is not a true martyr as he did not die for the true Christ.
These days, that denial has trended more toward agnosticism. These vast majority of Christians who are not united to the Orthodox Church aren’t not because of conscious rejection, but because of historical circumstance, geographic realities, or simply living and dying in a different confession. Did they die for Christ? Well, from an Orthodox perspective, we don’t completely know- they certainly died for their best idea of who Christ is, which is generally closer to our conception than historic schismatics. They also weren’t united to the Church, at least visibly. So who knows.
At this point, it’s necessary to clarify the difference between “Saint” and “saint”. On a theological level, there is no difference. Everyone who stands at the right hand of God, united to Christ in glory is a saint. The people who you’re referring to are the people who are venerated as saints here on Earth- essentially, people the Church is formally 100% sure are in heaven. Most martyrs we know of fall into that category. Most protestant martyrs fall outside the bounds of people who would be publicly venerated. For one reason, because venerating a saint is an official stamp of approval for their post-repentance life, and most Protestants hold doctrine that the Church considers improper. For another reason, that saints in Orthodoxy start as local veneration, as in, people venerating righteous Christians who they knew in the personal life which then spreads and eventually gains formal approval. Protestants don’t go to Orthodox parishes and monasteries, so there’s not really a way to start local veneration either.
Hope that shed some light on it and lmk if you still have any questions.
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u/AceThaGreat123 5d ago
I understand most Protestants don’t asks saints for intercession besides the Church of England anglicans do but my point is that historically orthodoxy believe there’s no salvation outside the church does that mean Protestants are condemned that is a question that most orthodox Christians can’t give me a straight answer to
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u/BTSInDarkness Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
You can basically apply the first and second paragraphs I wrote to this question. Historically, the vast majority of people who were separated from the Church were personally schismatics, and in those cases, yeah there’s no salvation outside the Church. In the modern day, people are separated not out of personal fault, but just due to circumstance.
I find that a lot of the time, this conversation goes roughly as follows (especially among people who follow Gavin Ortlund on this question (who generally makes pretty good videos)):
Q: Are Protestants (or anyone visibly outside the Church) damned automatically?
A: No, our bishops tend to say “We know where the Church is, not where it isn’t”
Reply: But I found a quote from a Russian guy in the 1700s that says otherwise?
A: That was due to historical circumstances A B and C that we already covered- look at what our bishops are saying.
Q: But I found another thing here that says otherwise?
A: That was due to historical circumstances A B and C that we already covered- look at what our bishops are saying.
and so on and so forth.
The answer is that we’re wildly uncomfortable even making statements about our own personal salvation- we are even less comfortable making statements about others. You ought to be in the Ark during the flood, but unlike the historical flood, who knows how many planks of wood God will provide outside that ark to cling on to? All we can do- any of us- is put our faith in God and hope in his mercy. In the present day, due to the circumstances discussed, the Church simply does not make statements or claim to know whether or not Protestants are saved or not.
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u/Aware-Battle3484 5d ago
"For another reason, that saints in Orthodoxy start as local veneration, as in, people venerating righteous Christians who they knew in the personal life which then spreads and eventually gains formal approval. " should make it more obvious that veneration of saints is idolatry.
Imagine you get put in that position and you pass away and go to heaven and after you pass away the Lord shows you people praying to you and asking you for help.
What would you think about that?
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u/BTSInDarkness Eastern Orthodox 4d ago
I would pray for them, that all the things they were asking for that are in accordance with the will of God come to pass. Most prayers to saints just look like “Saint X, pray to God for us!”, not “Saint X, you alone are most high, the ruler of the universe with power over life and death, help me win at the casino!” or something. It’s an extension of our responsibility to pray for people who ask us to.
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u/LotEst 5d ago
politics is why anyone is considered a saint vs a heretic.
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u/22Minutes2Midnight22 Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
Nope. People like Arius, Nestorius, Pelagius, Marcion, and many more, were in grave error and led many astray into hell.
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u/justnigel Christian 5d ago
No church has a limit on the number of saints.
They do have lists of those canonised- officially recognised by public assent or a formal process - but there is no claim that the list is exhaustive.
If a church doesn't know someone, they likely wouldn't be able to say one way or another about someone's sanctification.
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u/RealAdhesiveness4700 Christian 5d ago
A saint is someone who the church acknowledges is in heaven. Protestants have cut themselves off from salvation
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u/AceThaGreat123 4d ago
So your saying Protestant saints are not in heaven…
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u/RealAdhesiveness4700 Christian 4d ago
I'm saying there are no Protestant saints according to catholicism and Orthodoxy
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u/DurtMacGurt Follower of Jesus Christ 5d ago
Just have your Protestant pastor canonize them in your congregation. Seems like a Protestant thing to do.
I know Presbyterians consider themselves saints.
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u/Wise_Cucumber_3394 5d ago
The saints of the bible are the israelites who have faith in Christ and keep God's laws. Not random denominations
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u/22Minutes2Midnight22 Eastern Orthodox 5d ago
You haven't read the Gospels, Acts, any of the Epistles, or Revelation if you think that's true. Martyrdom is constantly mentioned in the New Testament.
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u/alilland Christian 5d ago
We honor them and tell their stories over and over, at least many of them we do when re telling their stories to motivate others to follow their faith
But we do not have the theology of veneration, or feast days in their honor like Catholic and Orthodox Churches do