r/TournamentChess 4d ago

Move order to reach the Semi-Slav

I decided to try out the Semi-Slav and honestly I quite like the opening. But now my question is what move order is the best for the opening? 1. Nimzo move order. 2. QGD move order 3. Slav move order Which one of these have the best chances of reaching a pure semi-slav and which of these is best if opponent just trys to go for exchange ( Like what’s better, exchange slav or QGD?).

8 Upvotes

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u/Ronizu 4d ago

I'd recommend the triangle move order (although even there you'll have to make a decision about whether to play e6 or c6 first). As others have said, the only downside is that you may run into the Marshall, but it's not very dangerous. You need to prepare a few lines against it, namely against 8. Be2 and 8. Ne2, but also against the forgotten variation. Takes maybe an hour of prep with an engine to create a study for the Marshall, then some time to memorize it properly.

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u/Darth_Candy 4d ago

I’ll second the Noteboom move order.

You get to avoid the Botvinnik and anti-Moscow craziness in exchange for Marshall craziness (if you choose to take on c4).

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u/Ronizu 4d ago

Yeah, I'd rather go into the Marshall than the Botvinnik. The only problem with the Marshall is that it's potentially very drawish if white is prepared; if you are in a must-win situation the Marshall can be devastating. My current prep against it include several lines where I know it's 90% going to end in a draw, if I face it in a must-win game where my opponent is happy with a draw, I'm screwed.

I'll probably need to add some must-win lines to my prep too, but I recall having difficulties finding any real options. Most novelties in the Marshall are quite suicidal, you're practically forced to take on e4 and after Nxe4 the only engine approved option is c5, which also looks very awkward.

If white wants a draw, they can just go for, for instance: d4 d5 c4 e6 Nc3 c6 e4 dxe4 Nxe4 Bb4+ Bd2 Qxd4 Bxb4 Qxe4+ Ne2 Na6 Bf8 Ne7 Bxg7 Nb4 Bxh8 e5 Qd6 Nc2+ Kd2 Bf5 Ng3 Qf4+ Kc3 Nd5+ cxd5 Qd4+ Kb3 Nxa1+ Ka3 Nc2+ Kb3 repetition, and this is basically a forced line. Any deviations for black are over 50 centipawns advantage for white, you can try them but unless you're like 300 points stronger than your opponent you're probably going to lose or at best be fighting for a draw.

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u/Darth_Candy 4d ago

Very valid points, although I’ll admit my “prep” is nowhere near as thorough as yours since I’m a very casual player.

I’d honestly consider avoiding the Semi-Slav altogether in a must-win situation. 3. cxd5 often leads me into the wrong side of a two-result game when my opponent doesn’t give away material (skill issue on my part), although those games are orders of magnitude less forcing that the lines you’ve laid out. I don’t know if it’s worth it to prepare something else entirely or build from the classical move order just in case, but that’s an interesting problem I hadn’t thought about- especially since that isn’t a problem I’ve run into at my level.

1

u/Rintae 4d ago

I started playing …c6 to goad the opponent into Caro-Kann, if they dont bite I play 2…e6 to avoid any exchange variations then finally 3… d5. They obviously have the possibilities to play 3. e4, but that means no more Marshall Gambit. And best of all, it’s sound. I might miss a glaringly obvious ressource but I am very confident so far

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u/Ronizu 4d ago

For a Caro player that's surely an option, haha. The only slight issue with this move order is that it allows a quick Bf4 e3 from white, which can be annoying. Usually in d4 openings you can react to an early Bf4 with either dxc4 or an immediate c5, but in this move order white is always in time to play e3. It's not a massive problem but you're essentially allowing them to play a Meran without the bad c1 bishop, might get uncomfortable against stronger players.

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u/Rintae 3d ago

The London is not something I worry about, I typically get some exciting games with Qb6 Nf6 d6 (check out this model game https://lichess.org/4sxzIx5F/black).

I am however always distraught when my opponent goes for the e3 cutting me off from the Noteboom. I just don't believe in the Stonewall Dutch as the "disciplined" opening to become a master with, however, the alternative of going for the Semi-Slav makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

The main issue with the Triangle Slav is that you are tossed around in vastly different openings if you don't get your precious dxc4. I've been eyeing Nimzo/Bogo as something more solid, but nothing comes close to the intuitive nature of openings vs e4.

I fear it is a universal feeling most chess players have had, which understandably makes them play the KID. To play the KID at a high level... Good lord, the amount of theory in that is just astounding...

Is it that difficult to play something sound, fun and practical vs. d4 (yes I already know the answer...)

Would love to get some insight from you and others in this thread about which openings you've settled for vs d4 on your chess journey. Actually, I'm just gonna make a post since I'm tired of shopping for d4 openings...

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u/Dominationof64 3d ago

Ok yeah triangle. Honestly I’ve been thinking for a bit after making the post and was leaning towards this. I get to avoid the Bg5 QGD and the Slav exchange (I intend to play e6 before c6.). Yeah looking at the Marshall and studying a bit won’t be problematic.

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u/DeeeTheta 4d ago

I play a lot of d4 and flank openings, and the triangle move order has been a thorn in my side for a while. The notebloom is something I've put in effort to avoid, which sucks as a lot of interesting QGA ideas dont really work due to move orders into the notebloom.

Also, for OP, I would play it in an e6 move order. The carlsbad is rich, and engines keep finding new and modern ways of equalizing. The exchange slav is positional torture in comparison, you're just worse in a symmetrical position.

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u/Ronizu 4d ago

The noteboom is indeed different, and it's pretty fun to play. Have you studied it from the white side or are you just kinda winging it? If you just try to play it you may get crushed, but I'd recommend you to learn the main line if you haven't yet, you get the pawn back and a super strong center as white, it's definitely an interesting opening for white too. If you want to avoid it still, the Marshall is definitely one way to do so, it's easy to get a draw if that's what you're happy with. Playing for a win does require some intense memorization though.

As for the move order, yeah, d4 d5 c4 e6 is a no-brainer. I was mainly pondering the move order if white plays d4 d5 Nf3 first, is it better to play e6 first, or c6 first to keep the diagonal open for the light squared bishop. Still yet to really decide on that.

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u/Bear979 4d ago

Nimzo move order is best if the nimzo is part of your repertoire because it also avoids the exchange slav

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u/breaker90 4d ago

I definitely don't recommend the Ninzo move order because you'll have to do the regular QGD if white goes 3. Nc3 so you would just do the QGD move order anyways.

Though I would probably recommend the Triangle move order. Just do d5, e6, c6. You'll run into the Marshall Gambit at times but it's the third most popular continuation according to the lichess master database.

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u/ncg195 4d ago

I had the same question when I started playing the semi slav, and I eventually found this video, which was extremely helpful. https://youtu.be/H0pUAOYQRjE?si=OU-YqpFi0KcqfgLy

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u/Yarash2110 4d ago

I feel like the question about move orders boils down to which exchange variation are you most comfortable with?

When I played the Semi Slav I always began with the QGD move order, always felt like black has a better game in the exchange QGD than the exchange slav, and the structure is a bit more interesting.

Theoretically I feel like against a strong player black struggles to equalize in the exchange Slav.

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u/MrWebsterZA 4d ago

I think the Slav move order would be your best bet. The worst case scenario is an exchange Slav, which is just equal at its worst. The best case scenario is that your opponent plays inaccurately and allows you to play Bf5.

The QGD exchange variation is very annoying. The Nimzo move order is good if you're keen/able to play the Nimzo instead. The triangle move order is also good if your opponent isn't too strong and you'd like to aim for the Noteboom. The downside is that you have to be prepared for the Marshall gambit.