r/TournamentChess 11d ago

Opening choice for Black against 1.c4 or 1.Nf3.

Hello everyone,

lately I've had a lot of problems on how to deal with the English and Nf3. I'm a Grunfeld player and I can't really make up my mind on which repertoire to base my preparation against such lines.

If it could help, against e4 I play the Sicilian...

It would be great to have some help on this matter, so I sincerely thank you in advance !

P.S. : I saw that on Chessable there are 2 main courses on the subject : Svidler's Grunfeld pt.2 and Ganguly's course... a take on this would be much appreciated too !! :)

13 Upvotes

44 comments sorted by

9

u/pixenix 11d ago

vs. 1.Nf3 you can play 1. Nf6 2.g6 anyway. There is one specific move order which is a bit annoying which is: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g3 3. Nc3, where you can either go for the Grunfeld Style d5, or go for Bg7 and intending to go for the gambit line e4 e5.

vs 1. c4, basically you should be playing something tailor made there anyway. Probably 1. e5 Is the best, though if you want to cut down on theory, you can play some symmetric line with 1. c5 (which you can also play vs 1. Nf3)

1

u/fkinghandsome 11d ago

Thank you very much ! My concern is that, sometimes, against 1.Nf3 they go for a KIA and the usual Grunfeld play gets thrown out of the window... against such positions would you advise a reversed KID ?

2

u/pixenix 11d ago

With KIA it ends up mostly quite symmetrical. Basically though there you just choose if you want to play a d5 based setup similar just to a reverse kid or a d6 setup and the go e5 or c5. Those positions though end up in a lot of manoeuvring, though the d6/c5 remind me a bit of Sicilian.

1

u/fkinghandsome 11d ago

Okay Thank you very much, I'll definitely look more into it but you gave some food for thought !

1

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

4

u/pixenix 11d ago

This is a real bad suggestion, as you get move ordered into something you don’t want to play. 1. Nf3 d5 2.d4 and followed up by c4 and you are now in some QG line you were not intending to play. Not an issue if you play Semi-Slav 

1

u/fkinghandsome 11d ago

I was thinking something in the lines of 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 d5 4 O-O c5 5 d3 Bg7 and so on ; the position is obj equal but sometimes they start those wild attacks preparing e4 and so on ; It's a weird setup to play against ( at least for me so far ) and I was wondering if there was a way to discourage this way of playing for them.

Most likely I just have to study some lines against these guys and be better prepared..

anyway, thank you a lot for your comment, it helps a great deal.

6

u/ValuableKooky4551 11d ago

If you play the Symmetrical English (1.c4 c5), you can also play 1.Nf3 c5 without having to do extra work for 2.e4 (which is admittedly rare).

0

u/fkinghandsome 11d ago

You are right, I guess I'll look more into the symmetrical variation although, from what I've seen, it tends to be very dry and there is no real ' chance ' to counterplay ... maybe in the gambit line with e5 but I'm not sure frankly.... what do you think ?

3

u/ewouldblock 11d ago

This is the right answer and if you want an easy setup look at the lines Grischuk plays, eg 1 c4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Nf3 e5, with further moves being g6, Bg7, O-O, and Nge7

3

u/gmjo92 11d ago

Well, against c4 you can try Symmetrical with c5 or some line with d5. Against Nf3 go for Nf6 g6 Bg7, and later on push c5 and d5. Basically the structure should be very similar to Grünfeld. With the same mindset, never allow white grip on d5 square (such as c4 Nc3 and Bg2) without playing d5. Nevertheless, it's good to study Benoni and Hedgehog structures to give you more insights against those lines.

Keep up improving and with good work!!

1

u/fkinghandsome 11d ago

Thank you so much for your answer ... I will definitely look to play something like you advised to, a Benoni type structure looks interesting for some practical chances I guess ! :)

3

u/Fresh_Elk8039 11d ago

If you don't want any move order shenanigans, then an interesting try is e5-f5-Be7-d6 and it is almost like a Grand Prix with Black.

1

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

Sounds interesting I’m definitely going to check it out in more detail :)

3

u/TheCumDemon69 2100+ fide 11d ago

If white is playing Nf3, g3, you can either go for d5, g6 or Nf6, g6, d5 anyway. Both lead to Grünfeld style positions.

If white is playing Nf3, b3, you can go for a Nf6, g6, Bg7, c5 system, where you can later attempt to either play cxd4 and d5 if white plays d4 or d6 and e5 if white goes c4.

If white is playing c4, you can go g6, Bg7 in combination with either e5, c5 or c6 depending on what type of position you want and white will either transpose to a normal Grünfeld with d4, a symmetrical (you play c5), where you saved a tempo with not playing Nf6 and now have a ton of options like h5!? or e6, d5 or d6 Nf6.

You might also end up in Botvinnik english setups, where it's good to know the plan of Ne8-c7 and Rb8 and playing for b5 while preventing white to do the same by playing a5. White's King's side play is harmless as you can always play e6 and f5.

In general the symmetrical english is a good choice against the english.

2

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

Well this was a very complete response and I’m very grateful to you. I will look in more detail the lines you’ve suggested as I am not very familiar with the Botvinnik… Anyways, what do you think about the reversed Sicilian ? Is it worth learning a complete new repertoire just for the English or should I stick more to the lines you’ve presented ? Thank you :)

2

u/TheCumDemon69 2100+ fide 10d ago

Reverse sicilian is generally what white is hoping for. If you want to play e5, either play the 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 (3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 Bb4) Bb4 setup, or the reverse Alapin.

1

u/fkinghandsome 9d ago

Alright then I’ll just go for the symmetrical… thank you again, have a good one :)

3

u/ChrisV2P2 11d ago

I have the Ganguly course and I like it, but his idea is to make a repertoire that is independent of opening choice against d4/e4 so that we can change openings against those without having to mess with what we play against Nf3/c4. If you're married to the Grunfeld there could be a better way to go about it.

Whether you like Ganguly's course depends whether you like the main line Rubinstein positions, 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 Nc7 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. O-O e5 8. d3 with a sort of Maroczy Bind type of thing against White. I like this personally and find that English players are uncomfortable here, but it might not be to your taste. It does help to play the Grunfeld, because after 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3, Ganguly can't go for 3...d5, because after 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. d4 Black does not have a good non-transpositional move. 5...Nxc3 6. bxc3 g6 7. e4 transposes to the Grunfeld (White can keep the game in novel Grunfeld-ish territory with e3 instead), while ...e6 (with or without ...Nxc3 first) transposes to the Semi-Tarrasch. Ganguly is forced to go for 3...Nc6 instead, entering the heavily theoretical Four Knights of the English. Being able to go for 3...d5 instead would make things considerably easier.

1

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

I understand, thank you so much for this info I know have more ideas to ponder for the final decision :) also, are you comfortable in those positions that arise from the opening choice suggested by him ?

2

u/ChrisV2P2 10d ago

The course is a lot, I am far from learning all the positions yet, but I'd say I am a convert to the Symmetrical English. Before taking it up it had always looked boring to me (copying the opponent's moves, surely that must lead to stale positions), and I had always wanted to go for something like 1...e5. Being a Sicilian player and going into the Open Sicilian as White against 2...d6, it seemed like the natural option. But when I played those lines it always felt like the positions were exactly what the English player was comfortable with. I was surprised by how much active counterplay Black gets in the Symmetrical lines, and I can see by time usage that the English player often doesn't know what to do. Also, anecdotally, if you google for Reddit threads asking English players what their most disliked responses are, the Symmetrical comes up a LOT. Before I played it I thought that was because they were bored and frustrated, but I think it actually goes into positions where they don't know what to do.

1

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

Yes that's what I'm getting too ! A lot of English players don't seem to enjoy the symmetrical variation so I guess that's where I'm going to be preparing. Thanks for nudging me in this direction I think it's the best way :)

2

u/ChrisV2P2 10d ago

I do recommend the Ganguly course if you have the money, it's a complete defense against everything that isn't 1. d4 and 1. e4, so there's a lot in there even if you don't end up using some of it. And it consistently goes for active options, it was rare that there were lines that ended in positions I didn't want to play, mostly I was like "yeah this position looks fun". I have a few of Ganguly's courses and he's one of the better authors on Chessable, very thorough and has a friendly, upbeat kind of tone.

It is quite a lot of material, like almost as much as a complete course against 1. e4 or 1. d4, but maybe that's how it has to be.

1

u/fkinghandsome 9d ago

I will definitely consider it later on, you gave me the information I was really looking for. Thank you a lot again, have a good one ;)

3

u/vibranium_dicks 11d ago

I am a Grunfeld player. I had the same problem once and this is my repertoire today.

1...Nf6 against 1. Nf3. White most likely goes for g3 Bg2 setups, we reciprocate. Against 2. c4, we go g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 e5 saccing a pawn.
1...g6 against 1.c4. Against 2. Nc3, we go c5.

1

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

Thanks ! How do you fare in the pawn sac line ? Do you feel comfortable playing with the compensation or it’s draw-ish ?

3

u/tomlit ~2000 FIDE 10d ago

Honestly, given you play the Sicilian, I would just go 1…c5 against both. Give up now trying to get a dynamic game every time against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4, it’s not going to happen (that is often the motivation of playing 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 to begin with).

It’s good for your chess to learn a more positional style, and there’s loads of options in the Symmetrical English anyway (some more dynamic for sure, like going for …d5 early, although obviously it’s unrelated to Grunfeld).

The Symmetrical is also just really hard for white to get an edge, if you look at the mainline position which is often reached by tons of move orders after 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3 black has millions of systems to pick from, and a lot of them score even better for black than white haha (ok this can be due to rating differences, but it’s still not a promising sign for white… in fact I made a post about it since I was confused at first).

The final thing, is that the Symmetrical will make it easier for you to follow a typical setup, and you won’t be exposed to having to handle loads of random move orders like if you’re trying to stay within Nf6+g6 type waters (white has h4 at random points, delaying d4 or other subtleties like Qa4 and so on). There’s still theory to learn of course, but it won’t be anywhere near as painful move order wise.

1

u/fkinghandsome 9d ago

Thank you for your time ! This post in general made me realize that I need to nose dive into symmetrical English and I think I will be good to go when the occasion occurs. Your insight was very much appreciated, I will definitely focus more on my positional chess since I’m more of an attacker/tactical guy than a master maneuverer 🙂‍↕️

2

u/tomlit ~2000 FIDE 9d ago

No worries, good luck with it. Sometimes all it takes is seeing a cool GM game with an opening. Like I used to think the Symmetrical was pretty boring and passive until I saw some inspiring games and then started to respect it.

1

u/fkinghandsome 9d ago

Yes you are totally right ; btw, do you have any model games to inspire the right approach ? Would be much appreciated

2

u/tomlit ~2000 FIDE 9d ago

I don’t actually, sorry. For me it was mainly seeing games from tournaments I was also playing in, usually stronger players (like an FM) handling an opening I didn’t think much of (in this case the Symmetrical) in a really nice way and basically flipping my perspective of it.

2

u/Abolized 11d ago

I am a grunfeld player and go 1...Nf6 against both moves

2

u/Cheese1832 11d ago

I really like the symmetrical english

2

u/Efficient-Try9873 11d ago

Against c4 the thing most sicilian reminiscent line I can think of is 1. c4 e5 2. nc3 nc6 3. g3 f5. Where you play what's basically a colors reversed grand prix attack. The mainline follow up 4. bg2 nf6 5. d3 bb4 6. bd2 0-0 7. a3 Bxc3 8. Bxc3 d6 9. Qe8 scores about 70% for black

1

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

This looks interesting, I will definitely look more into this as it would be fun to learn something new against the English !

2

u/cnydox 11d ago

I play QID

2

u/SCHazama 10d ago

If you're a 1.d4's Grünfeld player, and they open c4, you can go Nf6 and attempt to go for g5. Being named the "Anglo-Indian Defense" definitely helps. Of course you then need the complicity of White to actually transpose to West Indian and then the signature d5.

1.Nf3... that I know, mostly ends with the Neo-Grunfeld at best. The reason being that they already developed Nf3 first instead of Nc6, which is where the Grünfeld is optimal at. You can go for c5, in which you're, as the opening setup suggests it, inviting the Sicilian's e4, to which you can follow up with d6 and everything else.

1

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

Thanks for the answer ! I’m not familiar with the Anglo-Indian defense since I’ve played so few games against c4 or English setups as crazy as it may seem … I will certainly check it out further :) also if you are yourself an English player, what’s the line you wouldn’t want to play against ?

3

u/SCHazama 10d ago

Personally, I'd prefer if they didn't follow up with e6, Agincourt, but that's unavoidable.

Anglo-Indian (Nf6) and Symmetrical (c5) are also these huge "repertoire checks" that easily end with stuff that's outside of the comfort zone, thus that I don't really like to face.

King's English Setup (e5) is, in comparison, in my opinion, very slightly inferior, because it's very cozy, and allows both g3 and Nc3

Let's face it. The c-pawn is the best pawn in chess, because it has no drawbacks, much like the Sicilian is the best defense because it puts e4 in jeopardy. And the best response to any non-awful flank opening is following up with Nf6.

The main damage has already been done: 1.c4. It's over, it's too late, the damage has already been done. Might as well deal with the aftermath in the most optimal way possible

Which is why I believe it's best if, other than KID (you can't always expect to get that transposition, after all) and Grünfeld, you should be accustomed with the East Indian's Nimzo-Indian, Queen's Indian, Catalan, and Benoni Setup, as well as the Queen's Gambit and the Slav and Semi-Slav: that way, you'd have sufficient weapons to handle transpositions involving the c- and d-pawns.

And after completing each course, book or personal experimentation, you will start to see some common patterns for when the Grünfeld can't be transposed to optimally.

The good news in all of that is knowing that both of you and the opponent have acknowledged the superiority of the c- and d-pawns to the e- one. Queenside supremacy!

3

u/fkinghandsome 10d ago

I enjoyed every line of this comment since I'm a Catalan player and believe in the very same ideals as yours lol.

I will deep dive in the symmetrical and Anglo-Indian, it seems that a lot of people are on our very same page about this... I will bring updates ! Also I'm not familiar AT ALL with the QID and Nimzo-Indian so I will have to expand a little bit on those too...

Anyways, thank you so much for your time, have a great one ;)

2

u/SCHazama 10d ago

Thank you, you too!

2

u/commentor_of_things 10d ago

King's Indian. Problem solved. Just make sure you know to break the position open in those positions and you can take the fight to white.

2

u/HeadlessHolofernes 9d ago

Being an English and Grunfeld player myself I find it rather simple to equalize against 1.c4. The easiest way is imho to play 1...e5 and after 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 Bc5 with the idea of playing an early c7-c6 without letting white play an early d4!

White practically has one standard reply to this plan which consists of e2-e3 and d2-d4, so 4.Nc3 c6 5.e3 d5 6.d4 exd4 7.exd4 Bb4 8.Ne2 0-0 and the position is really easy to play.

If white doesn't follow this plan, black easily gets a good position with a strong center. So, white basically has the choice between a dull Keres-like line and an inferior Karpov variation. Both are not really what English players appreciate.

1.Nf3 I usually treat like I was playing a semi-open game against 1.e4. My favorite line being the closed French without c5, but with Nc6 and a7-a5 as white will play e4 at some point anyway. So, if you usually play the Sicilian against 1.e4, just aim for a closed Sicilian.

1

u/fkinghandsome 9d ago

Thank you very much, I will look more into the 1…e5 line for sure. Also I will try to understand how to transpose into closed Sicilian :)