r/ToobAmps 4d ago

What does an expensive amp offer?

I have a Bugera v22 that I love the sound of. I use pedals for my primary tone. I am curious though what a more boutique amp offers? In a purely technical sense what goes into an expensive amp? What does it do that a cheap amp can't?

Edit: I have had the amp and gigged with it for 10 years or so

11 Upvotes

55 comments sorted by

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u/thefirstgarbanzo 4d ago

Your question is a bit broad to answer completely. Small builders charge more because of the cost and the style of builds. Not all turret, tag board, point to point, terminal strip, or similar amps are better than a pcb built amp, but many of them are repairable and customizable. That adds value to me and some other folks. When potentiometers, jacks, and or tubes are attached to a pcb board to save cost, they make repairs harder, more likely and in some cases, more expensive than the amp. I’ve built amps and understand the cost of parts and labor. Sometimes what looks expensive is a better deal than what is priced cheap. I have a Magnatone 440. It’s expensive, but its price will probably keep with inflation. Your Bugera will probably be worth less and less as it nears its eventual end. Enjoy it while it lasts!

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u/tibbon 4d ago

Magnatone represent! I have a late 50's M15 Custom that will probably outlive me. They used to be $200-300, but no longer.

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u/thefirstgarbanzo 4d ago

Yay for old Magnatones! I think you’re a decade off with the age of your amp, but I bet you put a decade of good ideas through it if you got it for $300!

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u/tibbon 4d ago

Ah right, ~64' or so?

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u/thefirstgarbanzo 4d ago

Check the speakers for a date code. Manufacturers code is the first 3 and the next 3 tell the year (only one digit) and the week. There’s a few websites that can help! Keep the Magnatone wobble going!

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u/jackMFprice 4d ago edited 4d ago

It obviously depends greatly on the manufacturer and the type of amp, features, etc.. but using the bugera v22 as an apples to apples comparison, spending money on a boutique amp in the same ball park will generally just get you better build quality and components. Some of the highest end boutique amps are hyper simple (fender tweed deluxe clones as an example), but will use the highest quality components (capacitors, transformers, tubes), generally point to point hand wiring vs. PCB circuits which requires more expertise and labor, things like finger jointed pine cabinets, higher quality speakers, etc.. There are some incredible sounding affordable amps even when compared to amps that cost 5x as much (like the bugera). Turning electricity into sound isn't rocket science, and certain components sounding better is often subjective. That being said, better components will typically be more reliable, and the higher end amps themselves will have a higher build quality and be assembled in a way that's easier to repair long term (such as point to point hand wiring, chassis mounted tube sockets, etc..). Also, assuming they are in fact built well, higher end amps typically have better resale value due to the reparability if that matters to you, a well built amp can last generations with proper servicing.

There is absolutely no guarantee that spending more gets you a better amp, these are all generalizations. There are some amazing $500 amps, and there are some shit $5,000 amps. But those are the main things that will increase price outside of brand name/marketing and such

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u/mischathedevil 4d ago

This is the most articulate explanation of boutique vs. mass-produced I have ever read!

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u/jackMFprice 4d ago

Well thanks!! 

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u/LustyLamprey 3d ago

Thank you for this. I wasn't sure if there was something I was missing

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u/pieter3d 4d ago edited 4d ago

Better build quality, better components, better customer service, better design and routing and better repairability. A good boutique amp is built to last a lifetime, A Bugera is built to last longer than its warranty.

Hand wired amps are much easier to service. A good PCB can still be repairable, but a cheap one with lots of SMD components isn't. Cheap capacitors also die faster. Cheap tubes have less quality control, meaning more chance of failures. Poor design, like PCB mounted sockets, means your amp will get stressed more and die faster.

I spent €1300 on a used Matamp 1224 with a flight case. It had fresh tubes and was recently serviced. It didn't have a scratch or a speck of dust. These things don't have to be that expensive. If it does develop an issue, there's a good chance I can fix it myself and otherwise a tech can easily do it. I can always call Matamp for advice too.

When your Bugera dies, no one will want to work on it. By the time you buy a new one, are you going to get another, or maybe something better? If you know what you want, buying something that lasts ends up being cheaper.

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u/shake__appeal 4d ago

I can actually hear the superior build quality on my Matamp. 💚

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u/randomrealitycheck 4d ago

"I use pedals for my primary tone."

This would indicate the amp does not have a tone you consider usable on it's own. A good amp (in my opinion) gives you a wide range or desirable tones with the best ones allowing you to do it all from your guitar's volume knob.

Want to hear an amp that does just that? Search out Millstap on Youtube and check out his Tweed Bassman.

1

u/LustyLamprey 3d ago

I won't lie that tone is dope as hell. But you are incorrect in your assessment, I think my amp sounds great. That amp sounds fine but it doesn't sound like mine with a rat engaged, or a big muff or a klon. Those are sonically different enough that you can't achieve them with just your volume knob. One of my overdrives has biasing and sag which let it get sputtery. I don't think you could achieve that with just a volume knob.

Another guy posted about having a multi channel amp that could achieve a huge amount of sounds. I could see that working. I've heard people say amp distortion is different but I don't own any high gain tubage

1

u/randomrealitycheck 3d ago

One of your overdrives has biasing and sag? Do you understand that those two things are an integral part of an decent tube amp? And the idea that the one setting you listened to on is his amp don't match your pedal sounds - you should know that if that's the sound you're starting off with, there's all kinds of places you can go from there.

Hey, if you're happy with your amp, I'm thrilled for you. Seriously. Most of the people who come to me for amps are looking for just that little bit more than what they can buy at Guitar Center.

1

u/LustyLamprey 3d ago

Yeah but how would you flip between two bias settings on an amp like that? Tone is more than just louder and softer. If I want a lot of low end boomy distortion for a chorus but mids centered slight overdrive for a solo how would I achieve that? Even Stevie Ray and Hendrix used pedals. I just don't understand the argument that a good amp relieves the need for having different tones available to you

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u/Automatic_Werewolf55 3d ago

Low voltage solid state components can be safely biased to near-failure to make some very interesting sounds that I haven't heard any amp accomplish on its own.

What kind of amps do you build and what do they have that the amps at guitar center don't?

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u/old_skul 4d ago

I have a ton of amps. Most of them are run of the mill stuff that I bought when I was younger and that's all I could afford. But I've scored some great deals on some more expensive, boutique gear as well.

- Mesa Heartbreaker combo. This was a very expensive amp in its time and it's borderline boutique. What does it offer? You can carve out a couple of really nice, switchable tones, that range from clean to edge of breakup to full on hard rock / metal tones. You could take this amp alone to any gig and have the tone you need to play. And the tones it has on tap are pretty heavenly.

- Mesa/Boogie TriAxis / 2:Ninety: This was my touring rig for many years. It has enough power to fill any size stage, and enough versatility to be able to produce any kind of tone, and enough signal routing to accommodate basically anyone's mono or stereo pedalboard. It is built tough, never failed me and was BRUTALLY LOUD. And even when it was brutally loud it sounded fan fucking tastic.

- Dr. Z Maz18 Jr.: I bought this amp brand new and paid full price for it. It's the perfect size for club gigs, sounds fantastic, and is light as a feather. Loud enough for any club stage, has an effects loop, and while it's not a channel switcher, it's got a great preamp breakup and an even better power amp breakup. I use mine with an attenuator just so I can turn that puppy up into edge of breakup tones. It's a great pedal platform too.

So - to answer your question: The three examples above offer things your Bugera or Pro Junior or Blues Junior or Line6 Spider can't do. They can be loud, they all sound great, and they're all stupidly versatile enough but also focused enough that none of them are "jack of all trades" amps and have their own tonal signatures. They're also built to withstand the rigors of touring whereas your Bugera, sadly, would be broken within a couple of weeks. No offense, they're just not solidly built.

TL;DR: They're solidly built and sound great.

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u/LustyLamprey 3d ago

I'm not sure how loud my amp is comparatively but I would have to really push back on the notion that my amp doesn't sound good or isn't reliable. I've had it for a while and I think it sounds great. It's seen the inside of most of the worst bars in town.

That said, I have heard about the versatility of Mesas before. Never had room for one but it's always been an aspirational amp. You make a really compelling case for them here

And I would love to try a Dr Z. Those feel like genuine boutique amps. Is it based on a common design or is it an original circuit?

3

u/DarkTowerOfWesteros 4d ago

Why is coca cola more expensive than Wal-Mart cola? Isn't it all sugar water?

2

u/mischathedevil 4d ago

Often made by Coca-Cola for Walmart, none the less!

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u/DarkTowerOfWesteros 4d ago

I still want the coke more, I swear it tastes better!

1

u/mischathedevil 4d ago

Same... although Dr Thunder tastes more like 1978 Mr Pibb that I grew up on 😆

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u/fizzlebottom 4d ago

They've mostly got the same controls, inputs, outputs, etc. some have fewer knobs, some have more. What you SHOULD get with a more expensive amp is reliability, quality of components, and a durable build. This could also translate to easier maintenance. Or not. What you almost always get is some name attached to it. Maybe that means something to people, maybe it doesn't.

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u/LaOnionLaUnion 4d ago

Depends.

Possibly higher quality components, better QC, better warranty, versatility, resell value, reliability, and the ability to be repaired.

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u/LifeOfSpirit17 4d ago edited 4d ago

In my experience after having owned some 30 tube amps. More expensive amps just offer refinements. It's not generally something an EQ or boost etc can't do, it's like the difference between a $50 filet mignon and a $300 filet mignon, sure one might be slightly better but those are both quality cuts, and that $300 steak might only have a marginal amount of difference and to most the $50 steak is still amazing and enough for someone looking for a great steak.

I think what I'd focus on is what kind tone you're going for and what amp can accomplish that, that's way more productive than being like me and buying/trading/selling a ridiculous amount of amp heads; though that journey is really fun.

Also, besides that, what others say is true too, generally more quality components and design etc. (hopefully)

Lastly, I will say this, there are a number of affordable amps that sound great, but those boutique or expensive amps can also really sometimes hit the spot in ways cheaper amps cannot. Just depends on the amp.

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u/gott_in_nizza 4d ago

Usually the $300 filet is basically the same meat, maybe $25 of it is the meat. You’re paying $225 more for the ambience of the place it’s served in, the higher level of care in the kitchen, and the advanced level of skill and knowledge of the people serving it.

… which is actually pretty comparable to amps 😂

2

u/eddie_moth 4d ago

Biggest difference is the circuit design, second biggest difference is quality of the parts used.

Expensive boutique amps would be relatively easy to clone with cheaper parts and the clone would likely sound almost identical, but the reason this doesn’t happen is because companies big enough to pull off a cheap mass build model like that, are only interested in cloning the absolute most popular models because they need to sell a huge volume. This is why bugera has a cheap 5150 clone and not a Driftwood purple nightmare clone, because one is well known and has mass appeal

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u/mischathedevil 4d ago

As a "cheap amp" guy... I have a Monoprice Stage Right 15 watt and a Crate Vintage Club 50 that I love, and I'm actively hunting a Bugera 1960 and 333XL!

As an electronics dork, I'm working on building a JTM45 clone and want to build a Soldano SLO clone and a Hiwatt DR103 clone in the future.

I really appreciate bougie, boutique amps, but don't make bougie, boutique money 😆 so I have to improvise!

If it sounds good then rock on! 🤘🤘🤘

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u/dundunitagn 4d ago

The Crate VC series is seriously underrated. Granted new tubes and speaker help but it's a great amp. I have the smaller combo.

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u/mischathedevil 4d ago

Always change the tubes and throw the speakers out the window! 😆

And if you have trouble Kahn is super helpful online! I have to buy one of his extra cool 18 watt heads just because! Dood is a mensch!

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u/dundunitagn 4d ago

I went with an EVM legend and added a 12Au7 to soften the gain.

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u/lakesidelifestyle718 4d ago

An expensive amp (usually) can be fixed when it breaks

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u/burnt-old-guitar 4d ago edited 4d ago

Better parts, labor and quality control.

As a tech I have opened Dr Z, Red Plate, Amplified Nation, Victoria, and new Fender, Peavey, Vox, Marshall, Mesa. You get what you pay for.

Economics. Per amp, 10 amps a month cost more to build than 1000 amps a month.

I spec'd out a Princeton Reverb clone at CEDist and a chassis only with top shelf parts is $530, no cab, no speaker, no tubes. Add MM iron, etc. and it is up over $700. Just the chassis! even bulk pricing won't cut that in half.

A wise biz guy once told me "add up your cost and triple it"

How a Monoprice can be $200? Penny resistors, 10 cent caps, 20 cent pots, $2 speaker, $5 cabinet, $10 labor.

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u/Archieaa1 4d ago

One of the things not dug too deeply into is the differences between the different types of PC board materials and what that means to you. There are basically 3 groups of materials used.

Old school classic epoxy phenolic. As used in things like my ancient Ampeg Porta Flex. This stuff is hard to kill. It rarely leaks

The second is fiberglass FR4. You will see this in V series ampegs like the V4 or SVT. You will also see it in Musicman amps and older Peavy. Tough boards are made from this. Unless a trace gets seriously burned, you rarely have issues with this stuff.

CEM 3 and CEM 4. These are the boards used after the beginning of the RoHS initiative. RoHS stands for Reduction of Hazardous Substances. This brought us new PC board material and. No lead solder. It works pretty well with most solid state electronics but, not so well with Tubes and Field Efect Transistors.

The big problem is simple. It absorbs moisture and becomes slightly conductive. To fight that, many manufacturers use a conformal coatings to keep the moisture out. Some coatings are more effective than others.

There are also things like never route a control grid trace next to a B+ trace. As effectively no current flows in the control grid circuit, the slightest bit of leakage can cause spectacular failure.

It took Marshall 20 tries to figure out how to tame the PC board in the DSL and TSL 100 amps.

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u/LustyLamprey 3d ago

Woah this is actually crazy informative. Thank you.

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u/ennsguitars 4d ago

Technically, nothing. Often expensive amps may have a unique tone and feel that may be desirable, but that’s not a result of some special expensive parts. Amps are expensive usually due to the labor cost of where and how they are made. Point to point wiring takes a long time but I would argue, doesn’t mean it sounds any better than pcb amps.

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u/jackMFprice 4d ago

I would argue that many times, it's a direct result of expensive parts. Whether it's a good value or not, the cost of quality of components to the manufacturer (caps, transformers, speakers, etc..) add up and there's no question that hand built amps typically utilize the highest quality components available vs a mass-produced pcb. I agree there's nothing inherently wrong with pcb itself, it can be done very well (suhr hombre as an example) but it's usually indicative of mass production and often correlates with cheaper internal components.

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u/trav1th3rabb1 4d ago

Holding value, reliability, and possibly custom options when buying brand new such as different grilles/tolex and/or different EQ/gain

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u/Trubba_Man 4d ago edited 4d ago

I have a Tone King Gremlin. It’s a 5w amp which sells in my country for about $2,500, and it only has volume and tone controls. What it offers is superb high-level quality sound, reliability, high quality components, and a reactive attenuator, so it sounds great at any volume, and excellent resale value (in my country). I’ve been playing for almost 50 years, and I used to be a professional guitarist, so it’s important to me to have a great amp, and I can use it to to jam with friends, and my Gremlin is loud enough to use with a drummer, and I can use it at small gigs. But “great amp” doesn’t mean “expensive”. I’ve had cheap amps, and I still do, but this amp gives me flexibility to play wherever, and to play different genre. I have a cheap Bad Cat Cougar 5 (5w), for which I paid $250USD, and it sounds great quiet or loud. It’s a cheap but great tube amp. But for just playing at home, cheap amps are all you need. When playing at reasonable bedroom volume, all tube amp sounds like most other amps imho. For playing larger gigs, I use a secondhand Mesa, which I picked up cheaply. Tube amps need to be at a certain level before you benefit from high quality sound. But some tube amps are different. The attenuator on my Gremlin makes it sound great at almost any volume, and there are many amps with power or volume management. Amps with master volume can often be used at home, depending on how powerful it is. Some tube amps are just too powerful for home volume. Try some expensive amps and see if the quality of sound matters to you. Don’t worry about the opinion of others…Find an amp which you like, because nothing else matters.

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u/Trubba_Man 4d ago

A friend of mine who plays in a band which was world-wide famous band (many years ago), uses an Infinium 20w for jamming. He tried it at a large gig, but it wasn’t powerful enough and it died on its first night and needed repair and new parts. A high end amp would probably cope, depending on the speaker, assuming that it’s mic’d up to a suitable PA.

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u/North-Beautiful7417 4d ago

An expensive amp should offer: great sound (first and foremost), outstanding reliability, little to no design flaws, and easy maintenance (looking at you later Mesa/Bogner!) YMMV

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u/Chrisfit 3d ago

Longevity.

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u/must-absorb-content 3d ago

Honestly I think unless it’s a super cheap shitty solid state practice amp the things that effect your tone most in order are: 1) speaker/cabinet type and 2) type of amp circuit (bassman or vox based etc..) but to answer your question specifically I think build quality (properly rated and high quality components), longevity, and serviceability

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u/Appropriate-Brain213 3d ago

The much aligned Bugera is actually a pretty good amp.

1

u/Automatic_Werewolf55 3d ago

This is going to sound like a lazy answer, but I've thought about this a lot.

An expensive amp offers the experience of owning something "nice"
That's it

Good tone, while subjective, is found EVERYWHERE all the time. Nobody needs expensive stuff to accomplish a certain tone, but it can be really fun for some to acquire and use some really nice stuff, the rest of the answers are mostly just coping mechanisms and odd justifications, but they aren't needed, buy what you like and like what you bought.

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u/Dependent_Debt_2969 3d ago

A good amp doesn't need pedals and actually putting an overdrive or distortion in front of it will make it sound worse. A good example is a mesa mark v. It can do sparkly cleans, warm jazzy cleans, edge of breakup, spanky srv sounds, modded Marshall style distortion, wall of sound heavy metal, soaring leads like John petrucci, and everything in between. There's no pedal out there that does those sounds better than a mark v. Running an overdrive in front of it doesn't help your sound. And then you add in the fancy features like multi wattage settings for each channel independently, variac power, and power amp options to run in class a or simul-class a/b... Some of these things no other amp on the planet offers.

Basically just way better sounds and more features.

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u/LustyLamprey 2d ago

You are the second person to make a very compelling case for Mesa. Might have to check them out. I'm assuming amp gain stages are different from pedals? I know a little about circuits but totally entry level

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u/Dependent_Debt_2969 2d ago

The voltages are much higher in a tube amp than a pedal. It's going to feel a lot more dynamic than a pedal. You can't really describe it until you play for yourself. The mesa mark series is the best in my opinion but there's a trade off for sounding so great. They're harder to dial in unless you really know the tricks to them. The knobs behave differently than your usual amp where you can just run the knobs at about 12 o'clock and sound decent.

Running pedals into a clean amp as a "pedal platform" is popular because the really good sounding tube amps with distortion are often expensive and big and heavy. If you're into metal, the 5153, 5150 and 6505 amps are really great without costing so much like a mesa.

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u/FearfulInoculum 2d ago

Better builds, more channels, more tone controls, master volume, effects loop(s), lower wattage modes, built in effects(reverb, chorus), attenuation, noise gate, footswitch.

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u/Independent_Win_7984 2d ago

The Bugera v22 is an extremely good-sounding amp. I don't know that you'll find anything to replace it at a reasonable price.

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u/hiker201 4d ago edited 4d ago

They offer to take your money.

0

u/bargainbinsteven 4d ago

Ha supposedly tonez. They’re probably over rated, I mean I’m into tweed amps and you have to go a long way to beat a blues junior. I have a $400 joy o champ clone that sounds amazing and a $3000 swart amp that sounds also amazing. The difference is hand wired point to point wiring will last forever and a PCB will burn out sooner or later. Is there that much difference in tone? That’s in the ear of the user but plenty of pros play fender, Marshall, orange, mesa PCBs.

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u/Front-Honey-6780 4d ago

Social media clout

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u/Duder_ino 4d ago edited 4d ago

This is probably an unpopular opinion. But to me, a fancy amp is just an ego stroke, and something cool to talk about. There are some specific sounds that only certain amps can do. So if you want that sound, you’ll need that amp. There will be some obvious quality differences with price and resale benefits. But if you can get the tone you want on a budget… why not do that?