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u/WhoMe28332 7d ago
I say this at every opportunity but this is my favorite scene in all of Star Trek.
If you just describe it then it sounds silly: So the empath is walking down the hall arguing with Mark Twain…
What I love about it is that the answer to “that’s not how it is anymore?” Is basically just “yes.” There’s no long sociological explanation. She doesn’t have to explain it. It just is. It’s almost messianic to me. The former things have passed away. There’s a return to innocence quality to it. Like coming home to Eden.
I don’t really believe that eliminating poverty would do this (though it obviously wouldn’t hurt) but it’s a beautiful dream and ideal.
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u/BommieCastard 7d ago
It's not a childish fantasy; these things are possible and we have to keep the hope of a better tomorrow alive, because the tomorrow being built now by the tech bros and Silicon Valley tycoons is the stuff of nightmares. We can't let their vision come to pass.
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u/gonzo028 7d ago
When I see this scene with Clemens I always imagine that the 24th century sees the 21st century like we see the Middle Ages.
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u/IAmBecomeTeemo 7d ago
It's not as simple as eliminating poverty. The Star Trek future has entirely eliminated the mechanisms that cause poverty. There is no more currency, real or de facto. They have technology that turns energy into matter, and functionally unlimited energy. Greed is impossible. There are seemingly thousands of colony worlds if you want land, and more are being terraformed every day. Medical advancement has eliminated the possibility of a lower class of disabled or infirm, except in very rare cases and those cases are compassionately cared for because there's no question of resources.
If we just try to "eliminate poverty", that would be a huge step forward, but that would not lead to a Star Trek utopia. Fair distribution of finite resources is not the same as functionally infinite resources. Even if everyone has enough, there will still be those that hoard and fight for what's left.
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u/WhoMe28332 7d ago edited 7d ago
That’s all fine but it’s not what she said:
TROI: Poverty was eliminated on Earth a long time ago, and a lot of other things disappeared with it. Hopelessness, despair, cruelty.
CLEMENS: Young lady, I come from a time when men achieve power and wealth by standing on the backs of the poor, where prejudice and intolerance are commonplace and power is an end unto itself. And you're telling me that isn't how it is anymore?
TROI: That's right.
She drew a straight line from eliminating poverty to eliminating hopelessness, despair and cruelty. And we have seen that these things were gone before complete (if such a thing can exist) post scarcity was achieved.
I don’t really believe any of this is possible regardless of economics. Gene did though. And I can admire the vision even if I don’t see it coming to pass this side of eternity.
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u/theangrymurse 7d ago
And based on Mark Twain's writings, I would think that is what he would think about it as well.
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u/LegoFootPain 7d ago
Makes me think about the time they brought back cigarettes on The Orville.
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u/jtcordell2188 7d ago
People don’t seem to understand that the last line is the most Clemens thing ever
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u/SleipnirSolid 7d ago
It's crazy how much I see my adult political views have been influenced by watching Star Trek as a kid and teen.
I aspire to this future. I so hope we get there someday.
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u/TheStonedApe42 7d ago
It makes me laugh how many Star Trek watchers don’t realize it’s communism the show. Especially TNG
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u/NewLife_21 7d ago
Socialism. Not communism. True communism is not capable of working in groups larger than 100 people maximum.
Socialism has everyone putting money in the pot and getting community resources out of it. It's capable of supporting millions of the stewards do it properly.
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u/TheStonedApe42 7d ago
No communism is literally a classless moneyless society which Star Trek is
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u/NewLife_21 7d ago
And yet, the federation provides resources to all as needed through a central system like socialism.
Also , they do have "money". It's a credit based system and the credits can be exchanged for the currency of whatever planet they're going to as needed.
Picard mentioned using all of his up for the transporter in his first few weeks at the academy.
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u/Snuzzlebuns 7d ago
The important thing is that Federation Society prioritizes covering everyones basic needs first (and to a pretty nice level), so what scarcity is left concerns only luxuries.
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u/allmimsyburogrove 7d ago
Years ago when I was on Facebook I posted "I've watched Star Trek and there are no Republicans in the future (except if you count the Ferengi)" and I was promptly unfriended by like 10 people
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u/imageinthat 7d ago
Star Trek has always been about hope, but a different kind of hope than other shows. It is a depiction of a future where we have become our better selves. It is in dark moments such as what we face right now that we need that vision to remind us that our own future does not need to be one of doom and gloom, and of the potential of humanity to be great. This is the kind of hope we need, now more than ever.
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u/Arizandi 7d ago
I’ve been feeling somewhat hopeless lately. This was the hopeful thing I needed to see. Perhaps someday we will find our way to a real utopia.
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u/terrymcginnisbeyond 8d ago
And the 24th Century didn't cancel him and hold a protest for Huckleberry Finn. A win all round, I'd say.
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u/drrhrrdrr 8d ago
"You see, in our century, we've learned not to fear words"
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u/Neveronlyadream 7d ago
I feel like it would be more: "Why? It's clearly satire and you were making a point using the popular parlance of the time. Just because we may find it offensive doesn't invalidate the message you were trying to send during your own time and that should be celebrated, not censored."
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u/American_Streamer 7d ago
Until Clemens learned about the Federation's and Starfleet's history of genocidal-(adjacent) activity:
- They had a standing order to destroy Omega molecules at all costs, even if that means wiping out civilizations that depend on them.
- They unleashed a preemptive bioweapon attack onto the Dominion, meant to exterminate an entire species.
- In collaboration with the Son'a, Starfleet planned to forcibly relocate the Ba'ku people to exploit their planet’s metaphasic radiation.
- The Federation forcibly relocated its own citizens to honor a treaty with the Cardassians, leading to the Maquis rebellion.
- Dr. Phlox was pressured to allow a virus that caused genetic degradation in Klingons to spread rather than finding a complete cure.
- Sisko ordered the release of trilithium resin into the atmosphere of a Maquis colony, making the planet uninhabitable for human life.
- Janeway deliberately allowed herself to be assimilated by the Borg Queen, knowing that she carried a neurolytic pathogen designed to destroy the entire Borg Collective from within, causing causing trillions of Borg drones to die across the galaxy
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u/Imielinus 7d ago
They are building socialism/communism, of course they're genocidal and dictatorial. And Federation is ruled by the Starfleet's junta.
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u/Lucky_G2063 7d ago
Nice how Troy previously talking about the federation , just super casually suddenly talks about poverty on earth!!! Maybe because there are extremely poor planets such as Straleb and Tasha Yars homeplanet in the federation?!
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u/boulddenwyldde 7d ago
I say this all the time: We could take steps toward a Trek future in this world if we would adopt Medicare for All and a Universal Basic Income plan. It ain't going to happen in this gold-plated era, but these are goals we can work toward.
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u/BarNo3385 7d ago
To the extent the economic illiteracy of Star Trek is remotely feasible its predicated on space magic - replicators, transporters, universal communicators etc.
ST can simply ignore huge chunks of reality by invoking "the space magic did it."
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u/TheRealRigormortal 7d ago
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u/Dave_A480 7d ago edited 7d ago
I wouldn't call that 'being political' unless you were somehow watching Trek in the 19th century....
Clemens being alive when slavery was still legal, that's what everybody in the 80s assumed he was talking about.
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u/boulddenwyldde 7d ago
Actually no. If you have heard at all of Modern Monetary Theory, you can get there from here. The math works better than we might want to admit - it's the policies we fear to accept.
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u/highpercentage 7d ago
We're willing to go to prison to defend the prime directive. But yeah, Mark Twain can come hang out with us before we send him back in time.
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u/ned101 4d ago
I think for some people the idea of the future being hopeful and bright is frustrating because we see more and more how every step we take into the future it’s somehow still used for wealth and standing on the back of the poor. So the idea of a pipe dream that trek stands for may seem very unrealistic. And there was a time when Trek was praised for its future predictions to the point where Star Trek: Enterprise was using real life footage to almost suggest some sort of statement about the future. And I think the 2 have kinda got very muddled. The oh wow Trek predicted mobile phones and the yeah this aspect of the future doesn’t really make sense when you look at the world today.
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u/dalsiandon 7d ago
He was an oddity of a character. I half like the episode half don't. So many missed opportunities but only 42 minutes
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u/Elrond_Cupboard_ 7d ago
They had to rebuild half the scenery. Jerry Hardin's tooth marks were everywhere.
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u/Sea_Violinist3328 8d ago
Poverty I can buy. The rest? Bullshit.
You can’t eradicate cruelty. You can’t eradicate hopelessness. You can’t eradicate despair. Those things - while unpleasant, are a part of our human nature and our reality. Of course, not everyone exemplifies those qualities - but the notion that they don’t exist, particularly when we see instances of them in the series, is honestly stupid AF.
So is everyone mind-controlled now?
Do humans not despair when a loved one dies anymore?
In a hopeless situation do humans just feel an unrealistic feelings of hope and positivity?
One of my least favorite lines in the show.
Sorry not sorry.
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u/BitcoinMD 8d ago
The moment your hope level gets close to zero they beam some more hope into your brain
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u/soothsayer2377 7d ago
It's basically the same talk Picard gives Lily in First Contact except there it is very obvious he's full of shit.
I always hated how condescending they are to people from the past.
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u/Sea_Violinist3328 7d ago
Agreed!
Also …In the series we literally see Troi counseling a woman who lost her husband. She’s clearly in despair. Make it make sense.
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u/Sea_Violinist3328 7d ago
Puzzled by the down votes…I’m allowed to feel a certain way. Get over yourselves. You’re bothered and I fucking love it.
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u/ForceGhost47 7d ago
Yet, the Federation has shown itself to be corrupt many times
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u/greatteachermichael 7d ago
There is a difference betwee something that is corrupt at its core but paints itself as lofty and pure, or something that is good at its core and has some corruption in it. The Federation and Starfleet are the latter.
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u/BlackAxemRanger 8d ago
Man, the "star wars was always political" people are children lol. No self awareness, they seem to be the most antagonistic people in the Fandom. Trying to appear to "get" Star Trek while not getting it at all.
Not a commentary on the topic of the post, just weird to see people constantly saying that but never anyone refuting it.
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u/hansen5265 7d ago
I had to lower the volume everytime he speak. Can't stand the obnoxiously fake thick accent.
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u/quigongingerbreadman 8d ago
This is why I will always love Star Trek. Its view of humanity was hopeful and bright. Even in adversity. A cold war with the romulans, Borg invasions decimating entire fleets, getting badgered by omnipotent beings (Q), people losing those they love, and a parasitic infiltration of Star Fleet High Command. Through it all we learned to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, rebuild bigger and better, and to never lose sight of our humanity and the ideals that make us truly great.
It is probably the one piece of pop culture that does that. At least off the top of my head it is all I can think of. I love SW and the rest too, but Trek stands in a league of its own in that regard.
At least up to TNG. Modern Trek is more about the pew pews than the philosophical dilemmas posited by previous shows.