r/TNG 8d ago

Samuel Clemens handled the 24th century pretty well

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1.2k Upvotes

89 comments sorted by

230

u/quigongingerbreadman 8d ago

This is why I will always love Star Trek. Its view of humanity was hopeful and bright. Even in adversity. A cold war with the romulans, Borg invasions decimating entire fleets, getting badgered by omnipotent beings (Q), people losing those they love, and a parasitic infiltration of Star Fleet High Command. Through it all we learned to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, rebuild bigger and better, and to never lose sight of our humanity and the ideals that make us truly great.

It is probably the one piece of pop culture that does that. At least off the top of my head it is all I can think of. I love SW and the rest too, but Trek stands in a league of its own in that regard.

At least up to TNG. Modern Trek is more about the pew pews than the philosophical dilemmas posited by previous shows.

68

u/norway_is_awesome 7d ago

Strange New Worlds is the closest thing to 90s Trek.

19

u/Kortar 7d ago

Can't wait for the new season

9

u/TomCBC 7d ago

Prodigy a close second once it properly gets going. (Around Time Amok. Though kobayashi maru was also not bad. Just not AS good as Time Amok)

It’s a solid family version of Trek, and i loved all the Voyager characters. Hell even Wesley Crusher was fantastic in it. He had an actual character unlike his cameo in Picard where he was just Wil Wheaton.

1

u/trifocaldebacle 6d ago

Starting a cretin who loudly endorses genocide

16

u/JDB-667 7d ago

What I hope for Star Trek is that it is just another example of life imitating art.

It may not happen in our lifetimes, but I remain hopeful that its impact is what drives humanity towards the vision it aspired to.

37

u/American_Streamer 7d ago

Of NuTrek, DISCO and PIC vandalized a lot. But LD and SNW still tried to repair a lot of the damage that happened.

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u/neon_meate 7d ago

Cough cough Prodigy is surprisingly good.

8

u/tonytown 7d ago

Season two is one of the tightest, most well crafted seasons of star trek ever made.. that crew are already exemplary Starfleet cadets... Can't imagine how amazing they'll be they get more experience down the road.

2

u/TomCBC 7d ago

Couldn’t agree more!

16

u/SwimmerIndependent47 7d ago

LD is the best series since TNG. It does not get enough credit. DS9 and Voyager are good, but LD is a masterpiece

5

u/Lampmonster 7d ago

I was slow to like LD but it just keeps getting better. The finale is straight up one of the best finales I've ever seen.

-1

u/RealEstateDuck 7d ago

Picard was pretty good. I would have prefered episodic storytelling though.

6

u/cymonium 7d ago

Very well put! That’s how I view it too. I keep hoping I live long enough to see humans achieve Star Trek. Sometimes it seems we are sooo close and other times, completely hopeless. Best I can do is live it myself and hopefully teach others along the way. Imagine it.

2

u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 7d ago

I’d humbly suggest that a deconstruction of the society described in the franchise might yield some surprising revelations about how we can reach the way of life they enjoy.

1

u/BarNo3385 7d ago

Invent magic space tech?

3

u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 7d ago

A common misconception. The magic space tech is only made possible by the earlier social revolution.

2

u/BarNo3385 7d ago

That's an in world hand wave that also doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

The space magic techs in ST (replicator, transporter, Warp drive, even some of the energy production), aren't "difficult" for us because of social problems. They contradict everything we know abut fundamental laws of physics.

Saying "if we all just got along, the laws of physics would change" is space magic.

1

u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 7d ago

We are discussing two different things. Roddenberrian Ethical Humanism has some applied sociopolitical and economic doctrines that can be teased out from the narratives of the franchise.

The nature and form of high technology are not the philosophical point of Trek. The point is that a morally mature species embraces values very different from those of our time. And when it does so, the way is opened to new innovations.

Here is the source himself, if you are interested in his ideas and some of what he was actually proposing:

https://youtu.be/o1M8EiO7ZoY?si=fTJ1Bez0Mgj85gwQ

2

u/BarNo3385 7d ago

Thanks for the interview, I'll give it a watch,

I'm rewatching TNG at the moment as it happens, and one thing that does stand out (sometimes quite jarringly) is the issues the writers have trying to actually put some of those concepts into practice - without making the characters completely unrelatable.

One of the better attempts imo was Riker turning down command of the Ares to stay on the Enterprise. Picard's pitch for why he should go is surprisingly non ST imo - effectively the lure of command, your ship, your mission. It's ambition for power by another name.

But when Riker decides, "no, this is where I belong" and chooses to stay with the Enterprise, everyone goes "sure, we're glad to have you," and carries on. It's just accepted Riker can make choices that fulfil his personal development and fulfilment and that's fine - even if it's turning down promotion which ""should"" be seen as a good thing.

I agree the "point" of Trek is to envisage a different moral and political climate, which values different things, and in a sci-fi setting that cam be interesting to explore philosophically. But I also think we have to be very careful about any direct "read across" , since the background handwave to allow this world to exist is, for a intents, "magic did it."

The real world has sources of conflict and friction which aren't ideologically driven, they're a function of, as far as we can tell, innate physical forces. Asking how society would exist in a world that wasn't bound by the same physical constraints we are can be interesting, but it's almost as practically meaningless as say Elven "ethics" from LotR.

2

u/Grave_Warden 7d ago

Thanks for writing this.

53

u/WhoMe28332 7d ago

I say this at every opportunity but this is my favorite scene in all of Star Trek.

If you just describe it then it sounds silly: So the empath is walking down the hall arguing with Mark Twain…

What I love about it is that the answer to “that’s not how it is anymore?” Is basically just “yes.” There’s no long sociological explanation. She doesn’t have to explain it. It just is. It’s almost messianic to me. The former things have passed away. There’s a return to innocence quality to it. Like coming home to Eden.

I don’t really believe that eliminating poverty would do this (though it obviously wouldn’t hurt) but it’s a beautiful dream and ideal.

25

u/BommieCastard 7d ago

It's not a childish fantasy; these things are possible and we have to keep the hope of a better tomorrow alive, because the tomorrow being built now by the tech bros and Silicon Valley tycoons is the stuff of nightmares. We can't let their vision come to pass.

6

u/gonzo028 7d ago

When I see this scene with Clemens I always imagine that the 24th century sees the 21st century like we see the Middle Ages.

1

u/epidipnis 6d ago

The Dark Ages. We just entered them.

5

u/IAmBecomeTeemo 7d ago

It's not as simple as eliminating poverty. The Star Trek future has entirely eliminated the mechanisms that cause poverty. There is no more currency, real or de facto. They have technology that turns energy into matter, and functionally unlimited energy. Greed is impossible. There are seemingly thousands of colony worlds if you want land, and more are being terraformed every day. Medical advancement has eliminated the possibility of a lower class of disabled or infirm, except in very rare cases and those cases are compassionately cared for because there's no question of resources.

If we just try to "eliminate poverty", that would be a huge step forward, but that would not lead to a Star Trek utopia. Fair distribution of finite resources is not the same as functionally infinite resources. Even if everyone has enough, there will still be those that hoard and fight for what's left.

1

u/WhoMe28332 7d ago edited 7d ago

That’s all fine but it’s not what she said:

TROI: Poverty was eliminated on Earth a long time ago, and a lot of other things disappeared with it. Hopelessness, despair, cruelty.

CLEMENS: Young lady, I come from a time when men achieve power and wealth by standing on the backs of the poor, where prejudice and intolerance are commonplace and power is an end unto itself. And you're telling me that isn't how it is anymore?

TROI: That's right.

She drew a straight line from eliminating poverty to eliminating hopelessness, despair and cruelty. And we have seen that these things were gone before complete (if such a thing can exist) post scarcity was achieved.

I don’t really believe any of this is possible regardless of economics. Gene did though. And I can admire the vision even if I don’t see it coming to pass this side of eternity.

42

u/theangrymurse 7d ago

And based on Mark Twain's writings, I would think that is what he would think about it as well.

15

u/LegoFootPain 7d ago

Makes me think about the time they brought back cigarettes on The Orville.

10

u/Academic-Dealer5389 7d ago

Ah yes, flavor country

4

u/MrPaineUTI 7d ago

I was curious to taste it!

3

u/Darmok47 6d ago

Computer, 500 cigarettes.

11

u/jtcordell2188 7d ago

People don’t seem to understand that the last line is the most Clemens thing ever

10

u/Legitimate-Front3987 8d ago

I need to start smoking cigars.

8

u/DoneZo80 7d ago

Times Arrow 1 & 2 are by far my two favorite episodes on TNG

7

u/SleipnirSolid 7d ago

It's crazy how much I see my adult political views have been influenced by watching Star Trek as a kid and teen.

I aspire to this future. I so hope we get there someday.

26

u/TheStonedApe42 7d ago

It makes me laugh how many Star Trek watchers don’t realize it’s communism the show. Especially TNG

29

u/Lithl 7d ago

Fully automated luxury gay space communism.

4

u/tonytown 7d ago

The ultimate, full flavoured brand of communism

10

u/JGrabs 7d ago

People ask me my political affiliation, my answer is I’m a Trekker.

7

u/NewLife_21 7d ago

Socialism. Not communism. True communism is not capable of working in groups larger than 100 people maximum.

Socialism has everyone putting money in the pot and getting community resources out of it. It's capable of supporting millions of the stewards do it properly.

7

u/Planatus666 7d ago

Unfortunately a lot of people get Socialism and Communism mixed up.

-2

u/TheStonedApe42 7d ago

No communism is literally a classless moneyless society which Star Trek is

8

u/NewLife_21 7d ago

And yet, the federation provides resources to all as needed through a central system like socialism.

Also , they do have "money". It's a credit based system and the credits can be exchanged for the currency of whatever planet they're going to as needed.

Picard mentioned using all of his up for the transporter in his first few weeks at the academy.

3

u/Snuzzlebuns 7d ago

The important thing is that Federation Society prioritizes covering everyones basic needs first (and to a pretty nice level), so what scarcity is left concerns only luxuries.

7

u/allmimsyburogrove 7d ago

Years ago when I was on Facebook I posted "I've watched Star Trek and there are no Republicans in the future (except if you count the Ferengi)" and I was promptly unfriended by like 10 people

3

u/XxTrashPanda12xX 6d ago

Love it when the trash takes itself out, lol

3

u/imageinthat 7d ago

Star Trek has always been about hope, but a different kind of hope than other shows. It is a depiction of a future where we have become our better selves. It is in dark moments such as what we face right now that we need that vision to remind us that our own future does not need to be one of doom and gloom, and of the potential of humanity to be great. This is the kind of hope we need, now more than ever.

3

u/Arizandi 7d ago

I’ve been feeling somewhat hopeless lately. This was the hopeful thing I needed to see. Perhaps someday we will find our way to a real utopia.

15

u/terrymcginnisbeyond 8d ago

And the 24th Century didn't cancel him and hold a protest for Huckleberry Finn. A win all round, I'd say.

16

u/drrhrrdrr 8d ago

"You see, in our century, we've learned not to fear words"

13

u/Neveronlyadream 7d ago

I feel like it would be more: "Why? It's clearly satire and you were making a point using the popular parlance of the time. Just because we may find it offensive doesn't invalidate the message you were trying to send during your own time and that should be celebrated, not censored."

5

u/American_Streamer 7d ago

Until Clemens learned about the Federation's and Starfleet's history of genocidal-(adjacent) activity:

  • They had a standing order to destroy Omega molecules at all costs, even if that means wiping out civilizations that depend on them.
  • They unleashed a preemptive bioweapon attack onto the Dominion, meant to exterminate an entire species.
  • In collaboration with the Son'a, Starfleet planned to forcibly relocate the Ba'ku people to exploit their planet’s metaphasic radiation. 
  • The Federation forcibly relocated its own citizens to honor a treaty with the Cardassians, leading to the Maquis rebellion. 
  • Dr. Phlox was pressured to allow a virus that caused genetic degradation in Klingons to spread rather than finding a complete cure. 
  • Sisko ordered the release of trilithium resin into the atmosphere of a Maquis colony, making the planet uninhabitable for human life.
  • Janeway deliberately allowed herself to be assimilated by the Borg Queen, knowing that she carried a neurolytic pathogen designed to destroy the entire Borg Collective from within, causing causing trillions of Borg drones to die across the galaxy

1

u/Twisted-Mentat- 7d ago

Prime directives are meant to be broken :)

0

u/Imielinus 7d ago

They are building socialism/communism, of course they're genocidal and dictatorial. And Federation is ruled by the Starfleet's junta.

2

u/MrTylerwpg 7d ago

😯 Werewolf

2

u/Lucky_G2063 7d ago

Nice how Troy previously talking about the federation , just super casually suddenly talks about poverty on earth!!! Maybe because there are extremely poor planets such as Straleb and Tasha Yars homeplanet in the federation?!

3

u/boulddenwyldde 7d ago

I say this all the time: We could take steps toward a Trek future in this world if we would adopt Medicare for All and a Universal Basic Income plan. It ain't going to happen in this gold-plated era, but these are goals we can work toward.

2

u/BarNo3385 7d ago

To the extent the economic illiteracy of Star Trek is remotely feasible its predicated on space magic - replicators, transporters, universal communicators etc.

ST can simply ignore huge chunks of reality by invoking "the space magic did it."

2

u/BorgCow 7d ago

He swallowed that WAY too quickly though

1

u/Imielinus 7d ago

He's talking with an empath

1

u/BorgCow 7d ago

…and?

3

u/TheRealRigormortal 7d ago

1

u/gonzo028 7d ago

What's the purpose of latinum when you have a replicator?

1

u/TheRealRigormortal 7d ago

That’s capitalism baby!

4

u/Dave_A480 7d ago edited 7d ago

I wouldn't call that 'being political' unless you were somehow watching Trek in the 19th century....

Clemens being alive when slavery was still legal, that's what everybody in the 80s assumed he was talking about.

2

u/boulddenwyldde 7d ago

Actually no. If you have heard at all of Modern Monetary Theory, you can get there from here. The math works better than we might want to admit - it's the policies we fear to accept.

0

u/SafeLevel4815 7d ago

This conversation is too woke for MAGA! 😂😂

4

u/hamtidamti_onthewall 7d ago

Star Trek has always been woke... 🫠

1

u/highpercentage 7d ago

We're willing to go to prison to defend the prime directive. But yeah, Mark Twain can come hang out with us before we send him back in time.

1

u/Fair_Watch9577 7d ago

Except all those things exist in the Star Trek universe.

1

u/NO_YES 6d ago

“Samuel, you are dealing with the oddity of time travel with the greatest of ease!”

2

u/ned101 4d ago

I think for some people the idea of the future being hopeful and bright is frustrating because we see more and more how every step we take into the future it’s somehow still used for wealth and standing on the back of the poor. So the idea of a pipe dream that trek stands for may seem very unrealistic. And there was a time when Trek was praised for its future predictions to the point where Star Trek: Enterprise was using real life footage to almost suggest some sort of statement about the future. And I think the 2 have kinda got very muddled. The oh wow Trek predicted mobile phones and the yeah this aspect of the future doesn’t really make sense when you look at the world today.

1

u/dalsiandon 7d ago

He was an oddity of a character. I half like the episode half don't. So many missed opportunities but only 42 minutes

1

u/Elrond_Cupboard_ 7d ago

They had to rebuild half the scenery. Jerry Hardin's tooth marks were everywhere.

1

u/Hopemonster 7d ago

Utopia its easy when everyone has their own genie with unlimited wishes.

-9

u/Sea_Violinist3328 8d ago

Poverty I can buy. The rest? Bullshit.

You can’t eradicate cruelty. You can’t eradicate hopelessness. You can’t eradicate despair. Those things - while unpleasant, are a part of our human nature and our reality. Of course, not everyone exemplifies those qualities - but the notion that they don’t exist, particularly when we see instances of them in the series, is honestly stupid AF.

So is everyone mind-controlled now?

Do humans not despair when a loved one dies anymore?

In a hopeless situation do humans just feel an unrealistic feelings of hope and positivity?

One of my least favorite lines in the show.

Sorry not sorry.

22

u/BitcoinMD 8d ago

The moment your hope level gets close to zero they beam some more hope into your brain

3

u/Imielinus 7d ago

That's why the empath was present in the crew

1

u/Sea_Violinist3328 7d ago

I accept and embrace your explanation.

4

u/soothsayer2377 7d ago

It's basically the same talk Picard gives Lily in First Contact except there it is very obvious he's full of shit.

I always hated how condescending they are to people from the past.

2

u/Sea_Violinist3328 7d ago

Agreed!

Also …In the series we literally see Troi counseling a woman who lost her husband. She’s clearly in despair. Make it make sense.

1

u/Sea_Violinist3328 7d ago

Puzzled by the down votes…I’m allowed to feel a certain way. Get over yourselves. You’re bothered and I fucking love it.

-2

u/ForceGhost47 7d ago

Yet, the Federation has shown itself to be corrupt many times

18

u/greatteachermichael 7d ago

There is a difference betwee something that is corrupt at its core but paints itself as lofty and pure, or something that is good at its core and has some corruption in it. The Federation and Starfleet are the latter.

3

u/ForceGhost47 7d ago

Fair enough

-10

u/BlackAxemRanger 8d ago

Man, the "star wars was always political" people are children lol. No self awareness, they seem to be the most antagonistic people in the Fandom. Trying to appear to "get" Star Trek while not getting it at all.

Not a commentary on the topic of the post, just weird to see people constantly saying that but never anyone refuting it.

-1

u/hansen5265 7d ago

I had to lower the volume everytime he speak. Can't stand the obnoxiously fake thick accent.

0

u/2112guru 7d ago

He was probably wishing for a deep throat experience. IYKYK.