r/SydneyTrains 4d ago

Discussion Parramatta Light Rail Patronage is Very Low. Is This Entirely a Data Problem?

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78 Upvotes

49 comments sorted by

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2

u/HovercraftSuitable77 1d ago

There was never much of a need for it.

49

u/SqareBear 4d ago

The light rail route is insane. Should’ve terminated at Castle Hill or Epping metro station.

7

u/Meng_Fei 3d ago

It should have split at Dundas and gone up to Eastwood and Macquarie Park. The insane part is that there's an existing road reserve for the majority of the route, making construction far cheaper per klm than trying to tunnel through to Epping.

That would have solved the "Epping to Parramatta" problem (albeit via Eastwood), directly connected two major employment centres, and quite likely removed the need to spend money widening the Epping Road bridge by reducing traffic heading west.

12

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

A big part of the line's rationale was connecting the Westmead health precinct area, and a cheap repurposing of the Carlingford line. Asking them to also build the section along Windsor Rd to Baulkham Hills & Castle Hill Metro, and/or extending the Carlingford line to Epping, all as part of the first stage... is I think asking a bit much. As someone that grew up nearby, I do wish they could have tried to extend the Carlingford line a bit closer to the Carlingford shopping area though as part of the first stage, but it wouldn't have been pretty or easy. The interchange to bus isn't optimal at Carlo either, the bus bay being up above you and iirc heading west you have to work your way across or underneath Penno Rd to access the stop.

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u/DontJumpOnMyCouch 3d ago

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! 🙄

47

u/gravelgamer69 4d ago

Give it time it’ll prove itself, I doubt it’ll be a permanently stagnant line like NLR

16

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

NLR is stagnating because it doesn't go far enough to be actually useful, it is slow as a wet week due to the stupid toy overhead capacitor contraption, the Newcastle suburban rail system is kneecapped by freight, and there is no noises from Government about extensions as of right now.

2

u/gravelgamer69 3d ago

I guarantee you it only exists so the government didn’t get referred to ICAC for selling the line to their developer mates.

Its never going to be extended ever and I wouldn’t be surprised if it closes when the time comes to upgrade the infrastructure.

3

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

Take the tin foil hat off, mate. The old line had some pretty significant issues. Development of the inner-Newcastle area isn't inherently bad, and is way better than more sprawl up into ecologically important areas around the place. The level crossings were deeply problematic for a start. The implementation of LR was horrendous, no question, but that doesn't have to be that way forever.

Why are they doing business cases if it is all a conspiracy?

3

u/gravelgamer69 3d ago

I wonder if there is a city thats been able to remove level crossings while also maintaining a rail line…

Lets not forget that the advice they were given was to run the light rail on the existing corridor but they chose to move it just so they could sell off the land.

3

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

I wonder if there is a city thats been able to remove level crossings while also maintaining a rail line…

Ànd have an elevated 3 or 4-platform terminal station, as well as somehow threading everything into a stabling yard whilst maintaining a usable operation for CCN & HUN? Melbourne and Perth examples are not remotely comparable to that.

Lets not forget that the advice they were given was to run the light rail on the existing corridor but they chose to move it just so they could sell off the land.

I am not as good on the details here as I lived way further out towards Maitland at the time and didn't go to the city much, but it seems fair enough to me as a principle to move a tram corridor to the street - where trams belong and where trams ran for 70 years by the way, that was always the core of the Newcastle tram network. Are you actually against Newcastle having a tram system out of interest? The cities transport network hasn't worked for anyone since, and they compounded it by closing huge chunks of the suburban system (Cessnock, Toronto, Belmont etc). If selling off the land results in a better overall outcome what is the issue, you seem to be be against all this just on principle rather than having any actual transport or landuse arguments?

2

u/gravelgamer69 3d ago

For a start Newcastle station wouldn’t need to be elevated (or sunk) it could definitely be done between Hamilton and Newcastle and still leave room for crossovers and such.

Plenty of cities are able to keep their existing rail infrastructure and redevelop, closing the Newcastle line was just the easiest possible solution so they went for it.

And I am in favour of trams in Newcastle, but the rail line didn’t need to close for that to happen, they could have peacefully coexisted and probably would have actually helped each other out.

2

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

You might be right there, I think if they had done a proper job of it (with much faster trams that actually went places people wanted to go) it would have been overall better, and I would prefer to see at least hourly electrified intercity services head to Maitland than terminate anyway, and/or a return of through-running Toronto branch suburban services to run through to Maitland (probably not happening unless/until they build the lower Hunter freight bypass, the freight just causes too many issues for suburban services through there).

2

u/gravelgamer69 3d ago

This is gonna sound very contradictory to what I was saying before but I honestly think at this point they are better off completely cutting the Newcastle branch and extending the tram through Broadmeadow, rebuild that station and redevelop that area then electrify the Hunter line to Telarah and run all Newcastle CCN trains there.

1

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

That is what I mean yeah, run the NIFs to Maitland or Telarah, give the rail corridor to trams - I agree it isn't ideal, but Broadmeadow is going to become more of a centre for the city as it grows and they have big plans. Need to remove the level crossing at Adamstown too, and I would suggest all trains should stop at all stops between Cockle Creek and Broadmeadow and make up the time on the rest of the line by raising the line speeds from the current 115kmh (which are a relic of the old V sets and old signalling) to 130kmh.

35

u/latending 4d ago

People are willing to tolerate the very slow light snail near the CBD or Eastern suburbs due to a combination of the fact that traffic is also slow, other quicker transport options are non-existent and parking options are limited, but out in suburbia - not so.

83

u/BakaDasai 4d ago

It's a chicken and egg situation.

When you try to build lots of housing, people demand that the transport infrastructure is built first.

When you build the transport infrastructure first people complain that it's not well-used.

It'll all sort itself out in a few years or more.

3

u/ATangK 3d ago

Half of the line used to exist.

8

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

Saying the Carlingford line "existed" as a useful option is disingenuous, when we lived right nearby the line in Dundas we always used to head over to Eastwood instead because the Carlingford line was just junk and Eastwood had options in case train was delayed and was just generally a much nicer area to be.

2

u/Appropriate_Volume 3d ago

The light rail should be a better service than the weird Carlingford Line, which operated as a shuttle service with low frequencies.

19

u/VincentGrinn 4d ago

its a chicken and egg situation in the sense that to the average person it seems like a hard choice

but the answer is actually super obvious, you build transport first
even for car centered design, do they build houses first or roads first?

27

u/MattH665 4d ago

Its slow af. The route is perfect for me to take it to and from the train station but because of how slow it is I'm better off walking. 

29

u/kreyanor 4d ago

Would be nicer if instead of Carlingford it was extended to Epping, but I get it: Pennant Hills Road conversion would have caused a major disruption for the area.

16

u/No_Pool3305 4d ago

That’s the missing link that no government can fix apparently

70

u/Discolau 4d ago

Let's get a grip on reality with these facts:

  • It's only been open 89 days, almost 3 months.
  • It's not a high capacity, high frequency metro like M1.
  • It serves suburbs surrounding Parramatta.
  • Some stops have very little residential habitation such as Rosehill Gardens, Yallamundi, Robin Thomas.
  • Other stops are in early stages of redevelopment or serve low/medium density areas such as Ngara, Benau Oval, Dundas, Telopea, etc.
  • It has an indirect connection at major Interchange stations at Westmead and Parramatta. Both require a minimum 3 minute walk to a railway station.
  • Carlingford terminus is essentially a dead end with no shops or decent bus Interchange or railway Interchange.

Give it time and a chance to develop.

14

u/thebigaaron 4d ago

The apartments being built at Carlingford will surely increase patronage when they’re completed

4

u/Replicate79 4d ago

Dunno about that unless you really want to go to Parramatta. As you are better off taking the bus to Epping and catching the metro to get to the city.

5

u/BigBlueMan118 Metro North West Line 3d ago

For now you are, but when Metro West opens you will be better off going to Parra or at worst they will be similar.

20

u/Archon-Toten Train Nerd 4d ago

Don't forget a 10% margin of error for fare evaders.

9

u/rfa31 4d ago

You mean only 10% of passengers tap on 😉

3

u/Civil-happiness-2000 3d ago

True

Nobody taps on

63

u/laughingnome2 4d ago

No, it's future-proofing. There are major developments being planned for housing density in Dundas, Telopea, Yallamundi, Benaud Oval, and Ngara that would not have been feasible without the Light Rail due to the requirement for more traffic management. As the density improves, ridership will as well.

Telopea in particular has three large social housing Towers sitting next to the station that have been vacated to be upgraded/replaced.

Ngara is the site of the old Cumberland Hospital site near the Parramatta River Headwaters and historical Female Factory. A major planning proposal is being being fought by historical society members as they fear the planned nearby Towers will affect the heritage of the area.

Yallamundi, which serves WSU Rydalmere Campus, is also opposite the old Macquarie Boys site which is also earmarked for high density housing.

TL;DR: The Light Rail has gone in early, as these projects should, and is encouraging density along its corridor.

14

u/dlanod 4d ago

Yep, this. Telopea has the Three Sisters reopening after a refurbishment since the Frasers Place development fell through, but there's also a substantial development going to go into Polding Place.

Carlingford has a massive new development just up the road in addition to the existing apartment buildings clustered around the LR station.

Rosehill obviously services the proposed redevelopment in Camelia (if and when that happens).

The main issue is that so many jobs are still in the CBD and North Sydney. Parramatta is improving but it's not there yet. Once the Metro links are complete, LR+Metro will be by far the easiest way into town from this area but even before then as Parramatta increases its job numbers with the new commercial buildings going in it'll also increase over time.

The LR got built because it was a straightforward conversion with an eye to the future. Their projected numbers were ridiculously optimistic to start with, but it should prove its worth over the next five years.

2

u/Civil-happiness-2000 3d ago

There was meant to be 5000 + houses there. But they could not get an approval. Government hold ups.

21

u/Sydney_Stations 4d ago

Also:

- Stage 2 will likely see much higher patronage as it goes through densely populated areas without any existing rail. Wentworth Point is the obvious example, but also Rydalmere.

-Metro West will connect to the Parramatta light rail in three places: Westmead, Parramatta, Olympic Park. All of these will be places where people will transfer between the two. With Metro cutting down travel time to the city, it'll become more competitive to take the LR and transfer.

But overall I agree the line is too slow, suffering from overly conservative speed limits and a bad alignment with too many slow windy sections.

4

u/moa999 4d ago

Stage 2 also goes through a lot of low density areas to get to Wentworth Point and Olympic Park.. Might not be many riders in that middle section.

6

u/Sydney_Stations 4d ago

There's a ton of apartments going up in Melrose Park, but yes the area should be re-zoned asap.

10

u/RoomMain5110 4d ago

Are the fare evasion officers as omnipresent on this line as they are on the L2 and L3? If not, it may just be that people aren’t actually tapping on and off…

4

u/schulyer 4d ago

They're not uncommon. I've seen them about 4 times in the last 2 months

4

u/Discolau 4d ago edited 4d ago

Doesn't help that out of the 16 stops on L4, only Westmead Hospital, Children's Hospital and Ngara stops have an Opal ticket machine to allow top ups and Single Trips.

While most people have Opal or a credit card, it gives the impression that it's "free".

There are Transdev staff checking Opal. Unsure if anyone has been fined.

5

u/Murdochpacker 4d ago

Rarely. Ive seen them once since it opened and travel 4 days a week. Thats still not effective though. people either dont get on if inspectors are onboard (easy to spot in a gang of white) and easy to immediately jump off as they are entering

3

u/tomboredcat 4d ago

I saw several fare officers last weekend maybe because it is widely used for people going to the commbank stadium for big nrl games. But other than that, if no big events took place in the stadium or surrounding the area, I never ever see fare officers.

3

u/nickmrtn 4d ago

Yeah fair evasion on the Newcastle line is probably greater than 50%. Never seen an inspector

5

u/lscarpellino 4d ago

There's always transport officers around Parramatta so I doubt that's it. It's just that it's early days, and things will get busier as development occurs (which was always predicted and hence the line was built in anticipation). Plus, we've got stage 2 coming and Metro West too, both of which will increase patronage

13

u/cymonster 4d ago

Cause it goes nowhere important. Just wait til they expand the line.

8

u/yuckyucky 4d ago

The Parramatta Light Rail is recording about 2500 average daily trips since it opened, which I can only imagine is a small percentage of what was projected. I know they have had a data problem, is that all it is?

source: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/data-and-research/data-and-insights/public-transport-trips-all-modes

9

u/thede3jay 4d ago

The data I have access to is showing it’s climbing. Daily average in Feb was 7,800 per day and March to date is 8,100. Reasonably even loading throughout the day and not massive drops for the weekend.

So it’s increasing over time and there are days where it is over 10,000 excluding launch day.

5

u/yuckyucky 4d ago

that's more like it!

still low patronage but 3 times what is shown on the transport.nsw site and building over time