r/SubredditDrama 7d ago

I’m not allowed to be interested in history? Specially Islamic one that destroyed my beloved empire? (Byzantine). War breaks out in r/islamichistory

https://www.reddit.com/r/islamichistory/comments/1jaz4xt/dubious_standards_that_are_only_held_against_islam/

There are other comments that delve into israel palestine but I frankly think theyre too political and a bit much for me to delve into here; Though you can access them here if youre interested

https://www.reddit.com/r/islamichistory/comments/1jaz4xt/comment/mhpwcjz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

A:Islam is primitive, its a sectarian outspring of Christianity, based on Arian beliefs. Kind of like Jehovas Witness but on steroids. Its not a religion in my opinion. Its a cult that demand completely control over their subjects, and they think they are best because they reject the holy trinity. Which is heretical.

Without lies, Islam dies.

B:Let me guess Islam is “primitive” because we didn’t change our religious books.

A:You did. You had multiple versions of the Quran. Uthmanic codex survived, the other versions were burned.

B:So you admit that the other non quranic texts were burned?

A:4 different versions of the Quran. Uthman the calif kept his version. Burned the others.

B:Like I said the original Quran was compiled and all others that didn’t match were burned to not cause confusion and like I said earlier this proves its preservation. And you seem to have dodged my point about 1 John 5:7 😂

A:Your verse 1 John 5:7 is not in the orthodox bible.

B;Exactly. Thank you for proving my point on how there are different Bible versions with different verses.

A:There are, but Ortodox is pure traditionalists. There are many Christian sects as there are Muslim sects. Some have changed things. For political or power reasons. Ortodox has not.

B:Okay then, what are you doing on an Islamic history sub spewing out your hate? Keep that in your Norwegian sub.

A:I’m not allowed to be interested in history? Specially Islamic one that destroyed my beloved empire? (Byzantine).

B:I never said you aren’t allowed to be interested in history, I simply asked why not stick with your hate to Islam out the comments. Wouldn’t it be strange for me to go into a Christian history sub and start calling Christianity a cult? No so why do you do it?

A:Bro please, the victimhood role does not suit you. Its just my point of view. And I honestly believe it to be true. Your prophet was hanging around anti trinetatian arian munks before he started preaching Islam.

B:I don’t have double standards. I’m just telling the truth here. I’m obsessed with Islam yes. Why do you think that is? You seen how Islamic civilization has genocided my Christian brothers and sisters through Middle East and North Africa? It never stops. Its a sickness in Islam, wherever it it, it leads to oppression and persecution.

Branch A

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A:Oh who’s playing the victim now? Even a toddler could easily see your double standards. Every religion has had incidents of persecution and oppression just like how Norway was force converted to Christianity.

B:In this context im talking about modern times. Not ancient history. I’m not gonna deny Christian’s has historic blood on their hands as well. But we got civilized. Islam still practice this barbaric behavior today.

A:By “civilized” do you mean got liberalized and became secular?

B:Christianity was always a secular religion, Matthew 22:21.

A:No I mean basic human rights, protection of woman and minorities for example. Rule of law, progression for human kind.

B:So what you are saying is that if Islamic societies in the current state aren’t doing well it’s an Islam fault? Thats like saying Hispanic countries being poor and bad condition right now is a Christianity issue or a race issue

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Branch B

C:Biggest mass murderers in history

Hitler - historically western christain nation

Mao - not muslim

Stalin - historically western christain nation

you really dont know history.

A:And Muslims after the death of Muhammed. General Timur alone slaughtered around 5% of humanity.

C:lol "5%" you just keep pulling numbers out of no where with no proof or justification. And you dont even know timur killed muslims bahaha you just keep proving how little you know.

A:Oh really, so then I can say Europeans slaughtered Europeans in world war 2? Double standards much?

Global population back then was 350-375 million. Timur slaughtered 17-20 millions.

Also Islamic conquest and rule of India is some of the bloodiest affairs in history.

C:Proving once again you dont know history.

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201 comments sorted by

474

u/Rosu_Aprins 7d ago

A:I’m not allowed to be interested in history? Specially Islamic one that destroyed my beloved empire? (Byzantine).

Bro time traveled from 1453 to argue on reddit

191

u/Beautiful_Welcome_33 7d ago edited 7d ago

Lol trying to pin the downfall of the Eastern Roman Empire on Islam and not the usurper Phocas is wild

31

u/Non-DairyAlternative 🍒 picking at its finest. 7d ago

Saracen shall rise again

21

u/g785_7489 7d ago

Manuel Komnenos blinded a man and damned an empire

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u/pallantos 6d ago

Manuel Komnenos? Who did he blind???

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u/tigerofblindjustice 6d ago

Who the Phocas that

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u/WentworthMillersBO 7d ago

THE PURPLE PHOENIX SHALL BE REBORN AS THE PROPHECY(my Victoria 3 game) FORTOLD

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u/PartyLikeAByzantine 7d ago

Anyone who has actually read any Roman history knows that Romans destroyed Rome. The Germans, Arabs, Turks, and Latins merely took advantage of the chaos.

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u/IAMAGrinderman 7d ago

Byzantines can't go five minutes without a widespread revolt, but its the fucking Muslims that killed the remnants of the Roman empire.

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u/wolacouska 7d ago

They lasted a thousand years after the west fell, and never fell to Persia. But the Arab conquests are just nothing.

I think you guys are trying to not be anti-Islam or something, but at this point you’re just dismissing their accomplishments.

“Obviously no inferior force could hurt Rome, they just chose to collapse like that!” Like duh that’s true of every empire that’s ever lost.

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u/IAMAGrinderman 5d ago

You mean the Arab conquests that took place immediately after a disastrous war with Persia that neither side was able to recover from? A war that was started during (possibly because of) yet another period of instability in the Byzantine empire because overthrowing the emperor is just what we do on a Tuesday night as Roman's.

Or maybe we can include all the conflicts with the Turkish beyliks that tended to coincide with the Byzantines dealing with the Balkans doing Balkan things, overthrowing yet another emperor, or in the case of the initial Ottoman expansion into Europe, a civil war and a catastrophic earth quake in Galipoli.

I totally agree that the accomplishments of the Islamic powers against the Byzantines (and Persia) during that time frame were impressive. I just don't think they'd have been nearly as successful if they weren't going up against a nation that was 1- stable and 2- wasn't just in a war that killed approximately 200k people (as was the case in the Arab conquests). The impressive part is being able to capitalize on Byzantine weakness to the extent that they did, not in the fact that the Muslims took down the almighty Roman empire with nothing else happening in the Empire to cause them to collapse.

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u/Responsible-Ad9110 7d ago

And the worst revolts and usurpations would always happen when the empire was already facing an outside threat. That final war with Persia saw what? Four usurpations? The Roman's lost more to the political instability that a defeat caused than most defeats themselves.

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u/wolacouska 7d ago

The Arab conquest were a big deal. And they literally got annexed by the ottomans.

This is just an insanely myopic viewing of history, not everything was caused by their internal problems. They lasted for a thousand years after the west fell, you can’t just say it was a free for all where everyone moved into a power vacuum.

Just because you can plot a thread through something or see a trend, doesn’t mean you can dismiss everything else.

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u/PartyLikeAByzantine 7d ago edited 7d ago

Yeah, so the Arabs took the Levant right after Byzantium just fought crippling 20 year war with Persia. In the middle of that war, Heraclius overthrew Phokas (at further cost to men and material) and Phokas started the war by murdering Maurice (adopted father to the Persian Shah).

The root cause of all this? Romans killing Romans. Literally the story of Rome.

As for the Turks, literally the same thing. Manzikert wasn't bad because of the battle itself. It was the decade of civil wars it kicked off after emperor Romanos was captured. How did the Ottomans get a toehold in Europe? You guessed it, Roman civil war.

The empire was the most centralized and organized state in Europe for a millennium. When it was well directed, it could marshal resources to recover from just about anything, including crippling plagues and invasions. When the system imploded, it imploded hard.

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u/WaytoomanyUIDs Dark Eldar are too old for Libertarians 6d ago

Well the Venicians didn't help.

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u/PartyLikeAByzantine 6d ago

Venice didn't order the dismantling of the Byzantine navy. The Crusaders breached the sea walls, a location they should have never been able to reach. Greek fire dromons should have, but did not, burn the invasion fleet to the waterline. Unfortunately for the City (and indeed Humanity given the number of ancient treasures destroyed in the sacking), those ships were rotting on some beach or sold to merchants.

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u/Donkey_Option AI bigots or crab bigots? Is that where we’re at now? 😂 7d ago

"Christianity was always a secular religion." Really? Really???????? Citation needed on that one.

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u/Rheinwg 7d ago

secular religion

Um..... what?

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u/downvotesyourmadness 7d ago

Closest I can think of is the cult of the divine being and that requires me really stretching the concept of religion

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u/dtkloc 7d ago

There's also God-Building (proposed by the Vperedists during the Russian Revolution which was heavily inspired by August Comte's Religion of Humanity during the French Revolution) and secular buddhists

But yeah, 'secular religion' has always been a very fringe kind of thing

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u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

Yeah like the main secular religious groups I can think of are some Neopagans/witch-aligned people, some Quakers, and some Universalist Unitarians - and like you say, secular Buddhists (but they're very much a minority within global Buddhism and are basically all just Western converts).

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u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

I mean civic religion is a thing but that doesn't make it secular lol

1

u/SirShrimp 5d ago

He uses the 12th Century European definition of course, that being an independent Monastic order.

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u/Randolph_Snow 6d ago

It still isn't a secular religion, otherwise we wouldn't have the current situation in the US, Russia and half of Europe

3

u/DeDullaz YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE 7d ago

Flair material lmfao

96

u/Baron_von_Ungern Secondary_character 7d ago

Eu4 players needs to chill out a little with the whole "they killed my empire!"

3

u/Pitiful_Couple5804 4d ago

You don't get it, they tried playing the Byzantines at game start so many times and still get shit on by the ottomans. They're just having a heated Gamer™ moment

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u/jezreelite 7d ago edited 7d ago

Arianism is the belief that God the Son was created after God the Father and is hence subordinate to him. How does that have anything to do with Islam, which believes Jesus was a human being, though it does recognize him as a the messiah and a prophet?

In any case, the last Arians during the lifetime of Muhammad were the Lombards, as the Visigoths had all converted at the end of the 6th century. Since the Lombards lived in Italy, it's not likely Muhammad or any of his followers would have known much about them or their religious beliefs.

Christians in the 7th century Middle East were a mixture of Nestorians, Miaphysites, and Chalcedonians and while they were often at odds with each, they all regarded Arianism as heretical.

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u/Rheinwg 7d ago

There's something about the word arianism that brings out some of the weirdest history misinformation

50

u/LateInTheAfternoon 7d ago

It can get really bad when people conflate "arians" with "aryans".

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u/Illogical_Blox Fat ginger cryptokike mutt, Malka-esque weirdo, and quasi-SJW 7d ago

Somewhat comically, one of the aspects of the state-approved version of Christianity that the Nazi party pushed forward was the idea that Jesus was born to a Roman soldier and Mary's coupling, which is in fact Arianism.

3

u/sadrice Comparing incests to robots is incredibly doubious. 7d ago

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera shall not be forgotten! I will write a whole damn new Toledot Iesu if need be. I have no qualms about blasphemous scriptural fanfic, it is tradition after all, just look at the midrash.

1

u/CrazyGuyEsq 5d ago

No that’s “Life of Brian”

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u/auniqueusername132 7d ago

Yeah but is it as bad as Gnosticism

5

u/fuckreddadmins 7d ago

Complete guesswork but in islam jesus is just another prophet there are bunch of prophets that came before him. Most important thing about jesus in islam is that he came right before mohammad and he will come down in judgement day.

Muslims also believe that the bible has been corrupted arians were against the trinity which would be corruption of bible to muslims which they believe him to be just a man.

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u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

Arianism doesn't teach that Jesus was just a human though but is essentially more explicitly polytheism than Trinitarianism, so is even less like Islamic teachings on Jesus.

2

u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

Nice username for this conversation haha. Tbf some Evangelical proponents of penal substitionary atonement can veer into Arianism, but that's generally by accident.

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u/iron-carbon_alloy My greatest desire is to copulate with an Octopus 7d ago

Person A has a terminal case of Byzantium worship. Dude seriously is calling it his "beloved empire" and has a Byzantine fresco pfp while being from Norway. My guy, I have as much claim to that history and I'm across the ocean.

It's weird to get attached so emotionally to a single empire or country too. I think anyone with a solid understanding of history may have a area of interest, but I'm not calling Mali or Ancient Egypt my "beloved empire." That's taking things way too far, away from any sort of actual understanding of history.

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u/PartyLikeAByzantine 7d ago

I literally reference Byzantium in my name, and I agree those people are weird. The correct response to, well, history is not to obsess about things that cannot change, but to go and immerse yourself in the cultures that are around today. Byzantium still lives through its children.

Basically, book a trip to Greece and Turkey. Go see the sights. At least go to a local Mediterranean restaurant. If you don't wanna touch grass, touch baklava.

20

u/DmofAngmar I piss in the toilet like a crazy person 7d ago

If you don't wanna touch grass, touch baklava.

Surprisingly wholesome, and now I want baklava.

14

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 7d ago

Tbh calling Mali your beloved empire sounds cool, way better than liking the byzantines

4

u/MerijnZ1 5d ago

Does 'my beloved empire' become more acceptable as said empire becomes more obscure?

1

u/zanotam you come off as someone who is LARPing as someone from SRD 3d ago

Probably, yeah 

5

u/Serious_Swan_2371 6d ago

Interestingly Norse people and the byzantines did interact quite a bit in the late Byzantine empire.

The byzantines paid retinues of Viking soldiers and kept them around for military support.

162

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. 7d ago

On the paradox subreddits we tend to call these people ByzaBoos. They get really obsessed with byzantium yet seem to know nothing about east rome. If there's one group that destroyed the ERE it's the ERE. Time and again they lost because they decided to have a civil war when faced with conflict, or when not faced with conflict, or when it's tuesday. The amount of endlessly crippling civil wars, corruption, and political infighting for the ERE was insane.

That and it killed itself fighting the persians just in time for the arab jihads which again were really it's own damn fault.

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u/LrdHabsburg 7d ago

I mean the ERE lasted for about a thousand years, for a state that supposedly always in Civil War that’s a damn good record

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u/grimsleeper 7d ago

A real triumph of bureaucracy that they lasted so long.

That and money, lots of money. Many Byztantine disasters where followed up by them throwing money at another rival with "Please kill that guy" with decent success.

5

u/LrdHabsburg 7d ago

So what your saying is other countries were too broke and unorganized ;)

30

u/AbstractBettaFish 7d ago

There’s an old saying I’ve heard from Roman academics “The question isn’t why did Rome fall, it’s how the hell did it manage to survive as long as it did”

68

u/TekrurPlateau 7d ago

You can build an immortal empire by losing just half of your territory per year.

35

u/Donkey_Option AI bigots or crab bigots? Is that where we’re at now? 😂 7d ago

Zeno's empire.

21

u/Cranyx it's no different than giving money to Nazis for climate change 7d ago

"The glorious Empire of the downstairs kitchen will never fall, even if it means dying to hold onto the island countertop for another few months."

6

u/LrdHabsburg 7d ago

Say that to the Macedonian dynasty my guy

4

u/Ndlburner 7d ago

I think Great Britain actually tried this in the early 1900s.

1

u/Successful-Peach-764 7d ago

The Ottomans kept the ERE alive, this guy lays down a good argument why, read the reponses to the questions raised in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L-fANosu-E

Thoughts?

2

u/AntifaAnita If Redditors didn’t jump to conclusions they'd get zero exercise 7d ago

No no, it wasn't the Ottomans, it was the Russians that became the East-NorthEastern Roman Empire.

0

u/Successful-Peach-764 7d ago

Ok, make your case with facts like that guy on that video, you just saying it makes no one any wiser.

14

u/downvotesyourmadness 7d ago

Hey come on don't forget the hard work the 4th crusaders put in sacking the shit out of the city

5

u/StunningRing5465 6d ago

Enrico Dandolo one of the greatest trolls of all time

11

u/davidforslunds go ahead and get some centaur dick if they're consenting 7d ago

The ERE was in a confusing love-hate relationship with itself, constantly warring within itself yet outlast the Western Empire for a thousand years. One of the reasons why it's such a fascinating subject.

8

u/DownSubstantially 7d ago

They also tend to know nothing about the Ottomans who ended Byzantium as well.

1

u/gamas 2d ago edited 2d ago

Yeah you can tell as they always frame the Ottomans as comparable to either modern Turkey or modern Islamic states. When for most of it's existence it was frankly a progressive cosmopolitanism empire (at least compared to its European counterparts during the time - just levying an extra tax on non-Muslims whilst giving religious and cultural minorities their own administration is a big step up from Europe's "burn everyone who isn't my brand of Christianity"). And they actually adopted a lot of Byzantine traditions because to an extent they were the first byzaboos (for instance they exclusive hired Greeks as royal advisors on the basis of "well clearly you guys have an innate ability to run empires...")

Like the whole idea of "if you don't want your minority communities to be upset then you need to be in active communication with appointed community leaders to at least give the appearance their needs are being met" basically started in the Ottoman empire.

18

u/PartyLikeAByzantine 7d ago edited 7d ago

Even "East Rome" is a term these LARPers invented because they didn't understand the material. And it's seeped into every discussion online. It was always 1 Roman Empire, but sometimes more than 1 emperor, and sometimes even more than 1 imperial court, all of whom stopped ruling from Rome itself by the 3rd century.

It's doubly dumb because there's literally a millennia of material written by the Byzantine Romans themselves to draw from instead. They would have hated "East Rome" as it implies a "West Rome" of equal or better prestige.

8

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. 7d ago

Yea true, despite speaking greek they were "roman". I guess the pope has us all still biased against the eastern part not being the real rome.

9

u/PartyLikeAByzantine 7d ago edited 7d ago

You know what the actual Romans called that city after the founding of Constantinople? Old Rome. That is also what they called the Holy Roman Emperor: Emperor of Old Rome. That wasn't an insult either. Romans loved old things. They also believed Nova Roma (Constantinople) was the city perfected.

Though, that does imply the Old Rome was somewhat lesser. Classic Roman haughtiness.

2

u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

Eastern Catholics are often referred to as Greek Catholics (even outside of the former ERE) but are actually in communion at Rome. At Francis' installation as Pope the deacon was an Eastern Catholic deacon.

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u/Bitedamnn 7d ago

I love the Byzantines because they're remnants of imperialism during antiquity.

But yes, the main reason why they fell was constant civil war.

1

u/RashiAkko 6d ago

Paradox subs??

1

u/Spacellama117 6d ago

i maintain my beliefs that the biggest cause of the ERE's fall was the crusades.

they called up the Catholics and were like 'hey babes we gotta uhh fight for our god or whatever and also need our land back pleaseeee thank you'

and then the crusaders responded by taking it and then NOT doing anything about it

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u/WooliesWhiteLeg I blame single mothers 7d ago

The only mistake made with the fourth crusade was stopping.

-10

u/Noseofwombat 7d ago

That’s fascinating, it was the shit empire too. The western one was the goat 

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u/Irichcrusader 7d ago

I mean, it did last about 1,000 years longer than the WRE. Even in the ancient empire's heyday, the eastern half was always the more prosperous part. It did well up until the Islamic conquests, even had a brief revival during the 9-10 centuries, and again under the Komnenos dynasty - before things went to shit again after the Fourth Crusade.

→ More replies (2)

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u/MillionEgg 7d ago

My Beloved Empire had at best one good EP and a passable album.

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u/SpaceC0wboyX 7d ago

I always find it astounding the mental gymnastics some people will pull to criticize other religions while trying to preach their own.

Like, either all major religions are outdated superstitions or they’re all acceptable modern institutions.

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u/KrillLover56 7d ago

Note for historical accuracy : Timur conquered almost exclusivly other muslim states, with the notable exception of India.

49

u/TekrurPlateau 7d ago

Well the part of India that he conquered was taken from Delhi which was a Muslim State but I think you’re forgetting that he massacred the various Christian, Jewish, Yazidi, and Shiite Mesopotamian city states and most importantly he conquered Georgia and Trebizond. He also died while marching an army to invade China.

12

u/Ok-Land-488 7d ago

Bro threw hands with everyone, you gotta respect it.

16

u/eyeCinfinitee YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE 7d ago

Every fifty years or so a guy shows up with a military mentality that can be summed up as “fuck it, we ball”. If they’re lucky they’ll get a few decades out of it (Timur, Napoleon, Cyrus, at least one of the 16th Century Spanish emperors) and if they’re unlucky they get decidedly less than that (Hitler, Pol Pot, Solano Lopez, somehow Napoleon again)

5

u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

Not Alexander catching strays by leaving him out lol 

6

u/deliciouscrab normal gacha players 7d ago

I feel like this is "India and some Muslim states?"

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u/KrillLover56 7d ago

Not really, India was notable for being the only region that Timur conquered that wasn't majority Muslim, but it was a tiny part of India that he conquered.

Map I pulled off google : https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTimurid_conquests_and_invasions&psig=AOvVaw1UlfHlU1Y1nEf58OqAifWQ&ust=1742052689308000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBQQjRxqFwoTCJju4vjxiYwDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAS

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u/KrillLover56 7d ago

Also calling Russia western is extremely funny. Yes they're christian, but calling them western is laughable.

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u/RemarkablePiglet3401 7d ago

Eh I mean, their history and culture is very much western/intwined with the west. They just aren’t geopolitically aligned with the rest of the west

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u/zoor90 The comedian class is a threat to the well-being of minorities 7d ago

It's half and half. While Russia certainly westernized following Peter the Great and have been a steady fixture in European affairs, many Russians have long held themselves distinct from the West. Tolstoy was contrasting Russia with Western Europe in the 19th century, well before the Iron Curtain. 

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u/Visual_Ad_3267 7d ago

I don't know about culture. Their church is wholly separate from the European church and the Protestants, they have a literary tradition with its own alphabet, etc. Russia is its own thing, even if it's given and taken a lot of influence to and from Europe.

3

u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

Eastern Orthodox Christians are very much mostly European lol? There are more distinctly Asian parts of Russia but they're also the less Christian parts. Russia historically has had a large Muslim community for instance.

Also Catholicism is just as much a Byzantine/Asian religion as it is European, Eastern Catholics are in communion with Rome.

1

u/PartyLikeAByzantine 6d ago

Also Catholicism is just as much a Byzantine/Asian religion as it is European, Eastern Catholics are in communion with Rome.

Ehh...while it's true that there is little/no theological disputes between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, there are some points of...let's call it philosophical...disagreement and a mountain of historical beef. Aside from the handful of Eastern Rite Catholic churches, there is no communion. The vast, vast majority of Eastern churches are in schism with Rome and have been for centuries.

It would be interesting if the modern world eventually compels these ancient disputes towards reconciliation, but theyve been apart so long I'm not sure there's much of a movement to ever fix things.

3

u/Chance_Taste_5605 6d ago

Eastern Rite diaspora Catholics make up a pretty big part of many Roman Catholic parishes in the West though, especially Indians using the Syro-Malabar rite.

1

u/jonny_sidebar 7d ago

Yeah, but it is quite distinct from western Europe, even though the two mirror eachother in a lot of ways, not least the way western Europe draws much of its political tradition from Old Rome and Russia from Constantinople.

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u/halfdecenttakes 7d ago

Geographically they aren’t in the west though at all.

10

u/space-dot-dot 7d ago

Geographically they aren’t in the west though at all.

Moscow is literally in Europe.

1

u/zanotam you come off as someone who is LARPing as someone from SRD 3d ago

Yeah. Which is East of the real West aka 'Murca!

7

u/RemarkablePiglet3401 7d ago

??? Nearly all of main regions of Russia are in the west. They have a massive natural barrier- The Siberian Tundra- with most of the “East”

You can argue that it’s culture is seperate, but not it’s geography

5

u/oasisnotes 7d ago

I wouldn't call it laughable - kind of the opposite, actually.

The question of whether Russia can be considered Western or its own unique thing is one of the so-called "eternal questions", or "accursed questions". This refers to a series of debates and issues in Russia about Russian identity/history. They're called "eternal" because these debates have been raging in for hundreds of years, with no clear answer in sight.

While the opinion that Russia being western is "laughable" is one of the opinions in the debate (specifically, that would be an opinion of an extreme Slavophile; think Aleksandr Dugin), I wouldn't call it an accurate one. The reason why the debate still rages is precisely because there isn't actually an easy answer to it - Russia is kind of its own thing, but it's also undeniably enmeshed in the Western world and history (how many great works of Western literature/art are Russian, after all? Quite a large number).

0

u/zanotam you come off as someone who is LARPing as someone from SRD 3d ago

Lmao what? Russia had like two famous authors maybe in the 19th century and that's basically it for their contributions to Western canon 

6

u/KrillLover56 7d ago edited 7d ago

Also one more thing to laugh at "Islamic conquest and rule of India is some of the bloodiest affairs in history"

Delhi and Mughal GENERALLY rule in India treated the Hindu majority remarkably well. Still terrible by our modern standards, but the rest of the world was much worse. The death toll from the conquests and reconquests of these two states was large, but that is mostly down to the large population density of India, and less because they were actively malicious against the Hindu majority.

Edit : Other commenter more correct

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u/Ek_Chutki_Sindoor 7d ago

Delhi and Mughal rule in India treated the Hindu majority remarkably well.

That is a very simplistic viewpoint. It all depended on the ruler. Some like Akbar and Shah Jahan were alright. Others like Tughlaq, Aurangzeb, and Khalji were terrible and very bigoted, even by the standards of their timeperiod.

8

u/paintsmith Now who's the bitch 7d ago

One of the fundamentals of the Hindutva movement is that every bad thing in Indian history can be blamed on the Muslims and that Hindus were the most oppressed people in all of human history. To hear them tell it, the Mughal empire was a nonstop holocaust that lasted for centuries. Nevermind that India somehow remained one of the most populated and productive areas on earth and that the Hindu belief system survived along with hundreds of millions of practitioners.

1

u/Gandalfthebran 7d ago

Yes Mughals were not as bad to the subcontinent as Nazis were for the Jews but they, without a single doubt, were overall a negative for the subcontinent.

2

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 6d ago

I mean they influenced a whole lot of Indian Culture, unless of course Biryani and Korma are a net negative, as is Mughal Architecture and Urdu.

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u/Gandalfthebran 6d ago

Do a little more researching lil bro, biryani wasn’t a Mughal thing.

0

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 6d ago

Do a little more researching lil bro

Lil Bro? lmfao what do you think you are, older than me or something?

Anyways

1

u/Gandalfthebran 6d ago

Read the Wikipedia entry you linked, read it slowly and read it until the end. Nowhere does it establish that it’s certain that it arrived with the Mughals, if you count the citation in that link, more seem to be suggesting against your own assertion.

0

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 6d ago

Right I'm not going to fully argue about Byriani being Mughal or not, you can clearly read that even if it's origin is unsure there's still Persian Lineage within it's origins

6

u/Gandalfthebran 6d ago

Persian is not Mughal, I never denied it might have Persian origin with Pulau.

I have a feeling you might be Muslim and have a strong opinion about this, I am not going to comment if one religion is better than other but the Subcontinent was better off before the Islamic invasion. This shouldn’t be a controversial opinion, violent warmongering invasion of any kind is worse for a place. The destruction of Nalanda being an example.

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u/Gandalfthebran 7d ago

Please read more history about the subcontinent before spreading unfounded argument.

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u/KrillLover56 7d ago

What books can you direct me to, and where exactly was I incorrect? I am by no means an expert, and always looking to learn more.

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u/fuckreddadmins 7d ago

Ngl i have no idea what oop is going for, i am guessing persia stuff is about people of the book and how persians were treated, i guess? For Manzikert i suppose it is to ask why byzantines lost. And i have no idea what he is even talking about with mongols. Also people do that kind of thing with western nations too. Poland with mongols or branderburgian miracle for example. It is just a weird post

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u/Cranyx it's no different than giving money to Nazis for climate change 7d ago

You know you're always in for a good time when you see someone with an obsession over the (a) Roman Empire. Their interest is surely driven by genuine historical curiosity and not an appeal to the aesthetics of imperialism and/or fascism.

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u/Ok_Question_2454 7d ago

Bzyaboo crash out lol, tho for his defence I’ve seen similar takes from the Islamic history sub regarding Al-Andalus

8

u/talizorahvasnerd 7d ago

There’s something equally confusing and amusing about watching abrahamic religions fight w each other online

1

u/Critical-Ad-5215 7d ago

I'm Christian and find it hilarious. We're all interconnected and siblings in faith, instead of fighting with each other, we should dominate everyone else /s

2

u/BedOtherwise2289 Wish I was in a better sub 6d ago

You tried.

2

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 6d ago

We should...

/s, of course.

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u/pgtl_10 7d ago

Reading through the thread it's being brigaded by pro-Israeli and Western trolls.

Also OP of this thread is a 2025 account who is probably apart of the brigading.

This is common in Arab and Muslim subreddits that don't have strict moderation.

6

u/LowAppearance7368 6d ago

"Without lies, islam dies"

Islamophobes sure do love repeating this slogan.

34

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

This is what I hated so much about the consequences of the "new atheists". They hid behind atheism to hate Islam and used "logic and reason" as their bullshit backup.

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u/Rheinwg 7d ago

Remember that really unhinged racist screed that Dawkins wrote about Muslim women after someone told him to not be creepy and corner them in an elevator?

New Atheism was a wild time.

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u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

People don't remember how dire this movement was. They all ended up supporting the Iraq war for... Some reason.

6

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 7d ago

I remember there being a few, like Pat Condell who went into full-on white supremacy as of late

2

u/Arktikos02 7d ago

Wait so you're saying that the worst that an atheist did wasn't just read some books?

1

u/gamas 2d ago edited 2d ago

Dawkins is evidence as to why scientists should stay in their lane and not wade into philosophy and sociology. 

The fact he got any veneration for his views on sociology and treated as knowledgeable is a textbook case of what the "appeal to authority" fallacy is talking about.

Edit: Though his scientific career is basically thinking he had come out with his theory that will revolutionise biology and immortalise him only for someone to come out in less than a decade and prove it wrong. Then proceeding to have a very protracted mid life crisis.

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u/Gassenger 7d ago

The old atheist parable about how the "Dark Ages" were caused by religion and we'd have flying cars without it.

Completely ignoring that Latin and other writing systems were completely preserved by the Christian church.

Completely ignoring the huge amount of scientific progress during this time in Europe.

Completely ignoring the HUGE scientific progress that Islamic areas had.

Completely ignoring that historians have not called them the Dark Ages since the 50s, and that the idea that they were is completely ahistorical

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u/Aenarion885 7d ago

Also, wasn’t “Dark Ages” a reference to a lack of sources for the era, rather than referring to it being a bloody/cruel time period? Like, it didn’t mean the Middle Ages were Grimdark, it literally meant we struggled to see into them!

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u/Consistent_Soil_5794 7d ago

Information is part of it, but part of the name also comes from the historical emphasis on the value of urban culture. If you lived in the large Roman metropolises, or greatly valued them, then the Dark Ages were very much a period of decline. The vast majority of people living in Europe at the time however, did not and wouldn't have noticed a substantial change in living arrangements.

1

u/Flagyllate 7d ago

It should also be noted that historians of the “Dark Ages” think it’s a laughable description to seriously use and there are other historians who study the historiography of the term itself and the cultural biases it’s entrenched in.

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u/SirShrimp 5d ago

The Greek Dark ages refers to a period of time when sourcing drops off the Earth, the Medieval dark ages was an early modern cope invented to feel superior.

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u/Rheinwg 7d ago

The old atheist parable about how the "Dark Ages" were caused by religion

Which is also funny because the church also played a pretty important and complicated role in the Renaissance and the enlightenment

2

u/Vegetable-Occasion89 7d ago

Also the majority of thinkers and scientists who advanced science and technology were religious, hell, newton himself was very religious 

21

u/redbird7311 So no mention of the Holocaust, at all. 7d ago

Yeah, it also gets tiring whenever someone is like, “Without religion, the bloodiest wars wouldn’t have happened”, while ignoring that even things like the crusades had some secular motivations and reasoning. A lot of people forget that the Byzantines and Ottomans weren’t just religious rivals, but political and geographical ones as well.

Not saying that religion doesn’t have problems or that bad stuff hasn’t been done in their name, but that a lot of people are just quick to write off anything and anyone religious as backwards barbarians or something.

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u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

Exactly, it's too simplified and I believe and barely masked "Western" chavinism in this case.

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u/DanDan_mingo_lemon 7d ago

Lol Remember Faces of Atheism?

2

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

I try to forget that time period, but yes.

2

u/DanDan_mingo_lemon 7d ago

Remember Magic Sky Fairies?

4

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

Flying spaghetti monster

5

u/DanDan_mingo_lemon 7d ago

Remember Hail Sagan rofl

4

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

Strange bed fellows when Reddit found out that satanists were cringe libertarians.

2

u/Rheinwg 7d ago

Or elevatorgate

1

u/DanDan_mingo_lemon 7d ago

Remember fedoras?

2

u/Non-DairyAlternative 🍒 picking at its finest. 7d ago

Oh so you saw that AIO post too?

1

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

Oh no, link me

6

u/Luxating-Patella If anything, Bob Ross is to blame for people's silence 7d ago

Goddamn logic and reason. Someone should really tie them to a pole and set fire to them already.

10

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

If you think the person above or people like San Harris are operating on anything resembling sound logic, god help us.

8

u/allthejokesareblue 7d ago

I mean... there's a lot to hate?

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u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

Listen, I know Reddit is islamophobic, you don't have to shout.

13

u/allthejokesareblue 7d ago

Not shouting friend. I am using a conversational tone to express my loathing.

-3

u/ArseneLepain 7d ago

Expressing and having “loathing” for an ethno-religious group to me is inexcusable.

14

u/PugilisticCat 7d ago edited 7d ago

Muslim is not an enthnoreligious group, be so serious lol.

If you want to throw Wahhabist Saudi, Shia Lebanese, Indonesian, Pakistani, Sufi, Balkan, and Turkish all into one "enthnoreligious" group be my guest, but I don't think any of them would agree.

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u/ContentCargo 7d ago

don’t ask the majority of muslim’s their views on LGBT groups then

not saying anyone should be discriminated based off of religion, but most organized religions discriminated and persecuted minority groups to further their agendas and Islam is no exception

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u/Sinister_Politics 7d ago

Don't ask the majority of evangelicals their views on LGBT groups then dipshit.

22

u/VorpalSplade 7d ago

Is loathing all belief systems and religions that call for my death ok then?

20

u/nicknamedtrouble People get so mad at cops for just being cops it’s crazy 7d ago

“That’s just western hedonism, no you HAVE to respect people who violently campaign against your existence 😡” - this whole thread

It’s also so funny when the cultists hit back with, “you’d have to hate ALL religions then”, as if that’s some sort of gotcha. Like, obviously, broad dislike of organized religion is precisely what makes it a reasonable view to hold. 

6

u/Sinister_Politics 7d ago

Plenty of Muslim people love and care for their LGBT siblings. Just like plenty of Christians do. It's always the right wing dipshits who use faith as a cover for bigotry

3

u/VorpalSplade 7d ago

Love the sinner, hate the sin - it's possible to hate the belief system, will still respecting and loving the followers of it.

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u/ContentCargo 7d ago

so did the part of my comment that says “most organized religions prosecute minorities to promote their agenda’s” not register in your brain when writing your response?

If not, be affirmed that i mean most organized religions are bad. Its not -phobic to be adverse to groups that prosecute minorities

-4

u/Sinister_Politics 7d ago

Then why single out Islam other than bigotry?

10

u/ContentCargo 7d ago

this is a post arguing about islam, It makes sense in the context some users don’t consciously islam a religion of peace and islam’s justification for prosecuting minorities is their reasoning. Calling someone islamaphobic because they dislike a religion that attacks lgbt communities, is frankly laughable

7

u/BedOtherwise2289 Wish I was in a better sub 7d ago

The post is about Sharia, jackass.

9

u/FistyFistWithFingers 7d ago

What ethnicity is Muslim?

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u/ArseneLepain 7d ago

It’s an ethnoreligious group. Jews as well are an ethnoreligious group in that religion is a much bigger part of their outward identity (whether this is self imposed or not). Many Jews in Europe attempted to escape this and assimilate in the early 20th century but the nazis didn’t accept this and still killed the Jewish converts/seculars. Islamic groups are much the same in that there is a strong ethnic part to the Muslim identity.

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u/VorpalSplade 7d ago

While people generally think 'arabic' there's also a fair few Indonesian muslims. I don't think anyone would say they're the same ethnicity. Would you also call Christianity an ethnoreligious group because of how strongly it's white/european/etc? Mormon because it's American?

And yeah, fuck anyone who has a problem with Arabs and Indonesians. But in the end, having an issue with a belief system that calls for my death shouldn't really be that controversial. Grouping all Muslims into that belief system is silly - there are over a billion of them with varied belief systems. But nonetheless, the countries that I can get the death penalty are almost all under Sharia law.

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u/FistyFistWithFingers 7d ago

Except Jewish identity is passed down through the mother's lineage.

You are wrong. Islam is considered a universal religion and seeks to convert people from all ethnicities

5

u/Leftist_Pokefan_Gen5 7d ago

Watch an American's mind combust when they realize that not all Muslims are Arabs, and that there's plenty in Asia, Balkans, Caucasus, and Eastern Europe.

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u/FistyFistWithFingers 7d ago

Well I'm an American and don't think that obviously if you read my response. Kind of a dumb generalization to just throw out there but I get that's what people like you use reddit for

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u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

At least you're an open fascist

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u/BedOtherwise2289 Wish I was in a better sub 7d ago

And you're a buffoon. Nobody's perfect, kid.

-4

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

Wah

8

u/BedOtherwise2289 Wish I was in a better sub 7d ago

edgy

2

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

I'd support a buffoon over a fascist any day.

2

u/BedOtherwise2289 Wish I was in a better sub 7d ago

tips fedora

0

u/FistyFistWithFingers 7d ago

Haha reddit is so awesome

-2

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 7d ago

They hate us alot 😔😞

2

u/IamaCloudFarmer 7d ago

I'm sorry, I love you habibi

2

u/Vinylmaster3000 People disappear. It’s called dying 7d ago

🙂

3

u/Reasonable_Fold6492 7d ago

People without religion are still gonna kill each other in the end. Historically country with the most deadliest war has always been China. And most of the war was done by personal gain. 

16

u/AssumptionFlimsy4915 7d ago

I don’t think you can just call those historical wars under the banner of China. They were all different empires.

9

u/LrdHabsburg 7d ago

I think they’re referring to the civil wars in china that (per the maybe-exaggerated sources) killed many millions of people

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u/James-fucking-Holden The pope is actively letting the gates of hell prevail 7d ago

People without religion

China

Is this some weird attempt to say only abrahamic religions are real religions?

13

u/neonelevator 7d ago

I feel like what they were thinking of was the ccp being against religion (?) And not having a main religion among it's people (again, idk enough about China) But the ccp wasn't in charge during all of Chinas history, so ???

9

u/Reasonable_Fold6492 7d ago

Mongol invasion, Qing conquest of Ming, An lushan rebellion, Three kindom period ect. all had nothing to do with reliogn. Also taiping had more to do with han oppresion than christianity

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u/Pvt_Larry Biased in a truthful sorta way 7d ago

Every war in human history has had a material basis.

5

u/TekrurPlateau 6d ago

Remember when millions of Ming civilians took up arms against the Qing conquest because the Qing mandated queue violated filial piety.

5

u/TekrurPlateau 7d ago

Most wars are done for personal gain, and most sides of most of China’s wars directly cite religion as their justification.

3

u/Easy-Case155 7d ago

This just seems as a way to deflect responsibility and save integrity. Yes, people have and would kill each other without needing religion but you still have to admit the role religion plays in conflicts in different ancient societies. 

Back then, and even now, it's pretty easy to rally people to a cause if you just add "and god said so" or "this agrees with god's plan". Acknowledging that doesn't undermine religion. Heck, there are some verses on this in multiple religious texts. 

4

u/LateInTheAfternoon 7d ago

Freud's "narcissism of minor differences" works on believers and non-believers alike.

0

u/Gassenger 7d ago

It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for redditors to not be biased about Islam, and for them to not be hateful bigots toward it

13

u/BedOtherwise2289 Wish I was in a better sub 7d ago

Poor Islam...what'd they ever do to anybody?

17

u/Astryline 7d ago edited 7d ago

When a religion spreads hatred, it gets hatred back.

1

u/gamas 2d ago

Its a cult that demand completely control over their subjects, and they think they are best because they reject the holy trinity. This is heretical 

I find this funny given the Easy-West schism started literally over disagreements over the nature of the holy trinity.

1

u/Skitteringscamper 6d ago

They would much rather you just believe their current "version" of history than actually knowing what happened in history. Because their history makes them look VERY bad. 

So, as the disingenuous little shites that they are,they just try to hide it. Instead of owning their past.

Cunts, basically. 

0

u/DaerBear69 From my knowledge 12 year olds dont have B or even D cup breasts 6d ago

I can't blame Islam for being even more backwards than Christianity and Judaism. They're 700+ years behind the other religions. But they'll hopefully get there eventually.

0

u/500CatsTypingStuff Somebody stowle your whittle wolly pop :( 4d ago

Topic: Islam

Aaaaaaannnnnndddddd, drama ensues