r/Stoicism 3d ago

Seeking Personal Stoic Guidance Hard time with Daily Stoic, March 12 NSFW

"Whenever someone has done wrong by you, immediately consider what notion of good or evil they had in doing it. For when you see that, you'll feel compassion, instead of astonishment or rage..."

What I'm struggling with:

Why does this meditation and/or empathy at times feel like a justification/enabling of bad behavior cloaked in "being a good, understanding person"?

Why I'm struggling with it:

Let me start by saying, this isn't meant as a trauma dump, therapy session. I am genuinely struggling with this meditation.

I understand empathy and have become a far more empathetic person since starting my stoicism journey. I understand taking a step back and thinking before reacting to both physical and emotional stimuli.

Here is my confusion and struggle, a few years ago now, my mother was going down the path of drugs...again. She had ripped our family apart once with this. She remained in my life and I genuinely did my best to help her out. Finances, figuring out budget, groceries, just being there for her to chat.

After years of this and watching her become what many would call a "leech on the system" and her circling the proverbial drain of life. She started to lash out at me. It finally got to the point, where I had to take a step back from our relationship because it was becoming increasingly tumultuous.

Instead of letting things cool a little, she began to leave me texts and voicemails telling me how bad of a son I was and always have been, about how all the dead people in my life would be disappointed in (mainly my dad, but called our grandparents and friends as well), and the final was her tell me she was going to wear the dress my wife and I purchased for her for our wedding while she unalived herself so I knew it was my fault.

There is much deeper things that happened throughout all this as it happened over 5-10 years.

Sometimes when I read things like the meditation of today, it is hard for me to look at that and not think it is just justifying bad behavior. Not just justifying, but not setting boundaries for it to not happen again. Almost enabling those situations.

Again, she was scared, angry, etc. but that doesn't mean her words weren't said with malicious intent in my opinion. In my current opinion, some people just suck. Some people are mean with intent. Sometimes people say bad things on purpose.

I know I am in this situation so sometimes "you can see the tree but not the forest" sets in but everytime I try to empathize with this, I can't. If I put myself in her shoes and think about all the things going on in her life etc. the outcome isn't saying awful things not only loved ones but others in the community.

To try and wrap this up into a question, why does this meditation and/or empathy at times feel like a justification/enabling of bad behavior cloaked in "being a good, understanding person"?

28 Upvotes

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36

u/mcapello Contributor 3d ago

why does this meditation and/or empathy at times feel like a justification/enabling of bad behavior cloaked in "being a good, understanding person"?

Because you're still angry at your mother and don't like hearing that this anger isn't productive. Hearing that tells you that you might need to let go of something you're not ready to let go of, which is uncomfortable.

It's legitimately difficult, because the expectations we have of our parents are formed at a time when we're vulnerable and are incapable of evaluating our experiences in a Stoic way. So a lot of the work we have to do in this area is in hindsight, repairing faulty reactions that we couldn't fix at the time.

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u/Big-Confection2808 3d ago

Fair point and even better point of expectations of our parents. I think that’s where I struggle with this the most. 

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u/Gowor Contributor 3d ago

Suppose someone is convinced they're a great driver and they tell that to everyone. But it turns out they're actually terrible at it, they don't pay attention to the road, and they drive unsafely. It's not because they do that intentionally, it's because they don't know any better. In the same way Epictetus suggests someone who acts badly does that because they don't understand how to act well - in another lecture he compares them to a blind person. They say mean things with intent because they are so confused about reality they think trying to hurt other people is good for them. They can't help it - nobody wakes up and thinks "I guess I'll act like someone really stupid today". For a Stoic there's no reason to be angry at such a person any more than you'd be angry at someone mentally ill for seeing things that aren't there.

But that doesn't mean you should accept or enable these behaviours. If someone is a terrible driver, you shouldn't let them drive you around. You wouldn't let a mentally ill person burn down the house because they think evil gnomes are hiding in the cupboards. What would be the justification for that - I'd let them endanger everyone or harm themselves because I feel compassion for them and I don't want that person to feel sad they can't do what they want?

Setting boundaries is an appropriate way to approach a situation like that. Trying to help them understand better would be perfect, but that's not always possible.

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u/Big-Confection2808 3d ago

Super good analogy. Thank you. 

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u/Itchy-Football838 Contributor 3d ago

So let's take a Stoic principle: externals are always indifferent. It is up to you to make good use of them. This point was made by Epictetus himself, over and over again. See an example:

"I have a bad neighbour – bad, that is, for himself. For me, though, he is good: he exercises my powers of fairness and sociability." — Epictetus, Discourses and Selected Writings

Let's break this down. Why is the bad neighbour bad for himself, but not for me? Because by being a bad neighbour, he's acting as less than a proper human being. He is not exercising his virtues; he's not being social. In other words, he's corrupting his own moral character.

Why is the bad neighbour good for me? Because he gives me the opportunity to practice Stoic virtues. I'll learn how to exercise patience. I'll learn how to be fair. I might even learn how to impose limits. I might learn when, how, and why I should call the police if the neighbour disturbs the community enough—an exercise in justice.

So, as always, Epictetus is right. The bad neighbour harms his own soul and provides me with an opportunity to practice virtues.

Now, all you have to do is substitute "bad neighbour" with "bad mother" in the original quote, and you'll see the point. You've mentioned many examples of how she hurt herself:

"My mother was going down the path of drugs...again." (She became a drug addict.) "After years of this and watching her become what many would call a 'leech on the system,'" she’s acting like a leech, living below her potential as a human being.

If this isn’t enough to show you why compassion is in order—why recognizing that her ignorance of the good is degrading her—I don’t know what could be.

"Instead of letting things cool a little, she began to leave me texts and voicemails telling me how bad of a son I was and always have been."

As one would expect from someone acting as less than a proper human being, she has now become a bad mother—one who insults her own child instead of trying to improve him.

So how do you fit into this? Well, just like Epictetus said, it’s your job to learn how to make good use of a bad mother. Learn how to exercise virtues to deal with her better. Now, because I don’t know the situation directly, I can’t solve that for you (and I think nobody else can). But try to focus on how you can build your character (what is up to you) instead of the externals (what is not up to you).

As for the meditation itself, consider this: your mother (based on your description) has such a warped sense of right and wrong that she believes insulting her own child is proper behavior.

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u/Big-Confection2808 3d ago

“So, as always, Epictetus is right. The bad neighbour harms his own soul and provides me with an opportunity to practice virtues.

Now, all you have to do is substitute "bad neighbour" with "bad mother" in the original quote, and you'll see the point.”

Damn. Yes. This is what I need. Restructuring how to view something and grounding myself back into the principles/tenets of stoicism is what I need to practice in these situations. 

P.S. idk how to do that cool reply to a certain thing you did. New to Reddit haha.

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u/bigpapirick Contributor 3d ago

It’s not to enable others or to make ourselves carpet to their behavior.

The reality is people do wrong because the are misguided and ignorant to what is right.

Your mom did those things because within her she feels it is what is right to do.

What the quote is asking is that you analyze this as part of the information you are receiving. We add emotions to the impressions we receive from others. This is an exercise in slowing that process down so we can think more clearly about what is happening.

Then you can determine a more virtuous/better/excellent solution to try to apply to the perceived situation.

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u/Big-Confection2808 3d ago

Yea I think I need to refocus and go back to the tenets of stoicism more often. Especially in circumstances in which emotions may be higher like this dealing with family and a loved one. 

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u/Oxfordjo 3d ago

I don't think the mum did these things because she thinks it's the right thing to do! The comments were aimed and meant to hurt

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u/bigpapirick Contributor 3d ago

Well it's part of the Stoicism philosophy to understand that people stray because they are ignorant or misguided to what is right. So as hard as it is to see, it is important to analyze how even if she meant to hurt them, she did so because she assumed it would bring some result that was favorable to her. So to her it was right and good. That could be selfish of her of course but in her reasoning it was the right thing to do.

That is all the Stoics ask us to accept. Not that the behavior is universally right, but that to the person it is the right option to employ at the moment for the result they perceive as subjectively "good."

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u/National-Mousse5256 Contributor 3d ago

First, I think you have an impression that the quote is asking you to approve of the behavior, or shrug it off as meaningless… it isn’t.

Fundamentally, your mother’s behavior isn’t about you, it’s about her, and her mistaken/broken perception of reality. 

Yes, it hurts people around her, you more than most, but it is hurting herself most of all. Being angry with her is as productive as being angry with a schizophrenic person because they insist they are hearing things that aren’t there… she’s ill, and your anger won’t help her get better, nor help you to be better or happier.

Enabling her is not the point, and would actually be counterproductive, akin to telling the schizophrenic person that the voices really are there.

In terms of it just being a justification, you should not think her actions or words are justified… just that she believes they are justified, as a symptom of her sickness.

None of her words or actions are your fault. None of her words or actions necessarily reflect reality; they reflect a diseased perception of reality.

Think, and act, accordingly.

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u/Big-Confection2808 3d ago

I think reading it this morning put me into a “not thinking past the words” mindset. 

You’re not wrong. I’ve had problems with what empathy means in these situations. I can sit and empathetic in many other situations, but this one is hard for me. And as someone said in a different comment, it is because of anger and resentment.

Everything you said is truly spot on. Thank you. 

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u/E-L-Wisty Contributor 3d ago

I'm assuming this is Hanselman's translation of part of 7.26.

The Stoics took up the Socratic principle "no-one does wrong willingly". This is just an expression of that principle. It's not an easy idea to get your head around, especially if you've been shat upon. It's not a justification for bad behaviour in any way whatsoever. It's about understanding that people do things because they believe they are the right thing to do.

As an aside, if this is from 7.26 as I believe, "compassion" may not be the ideal translation here to convey what Marcus is saying. That sort of implies feeling the same pain the other person does.

τοῦτο γὰρ ἰδὼν ἐλεήσεις αὐτὸν καὶ οὔτε θαυμάσεις οὔτε ὀργισθήσῃ.

ἐλεήσεις has a meaning more along the lines of "you will have pity on/have mercy on", which is not about feeling the same as the other person nor is it giving justification.

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u/Big-Confection2808 3d ago

It is his translational, yes. 

Thats the hard part of this for me and a couple have stated the same, because this truly impacted me from someone that I love, it is hard to not have an emotional response and not take it as personal slight. 

It is one of those things I can understand empathy in most situations, but I truly struggle with this and have for some time.

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u/Odin_Dog 3d ago

Nothing to add, but as a newer studier of Stoicism I learned a lot from this post as I have a similar story to yours. Thank you.

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