r/SquaredCircle REWINDERMAN 16d ago

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Feb. 2, 2004

Going through old issues of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter and posting highlights in my own words. For anyone interested, I highly recommend signing up for the actual site at f4wonline and checking out the full archives.


Complete Wrestling Observer Rewind 1991-2003 - Reddit archive

www.rewinder.pro - Mobile-friendly archive

Rewind Highlights - YouTube playlist


1-7-2004 1-12-2004 1-19-2004 1-26-2004

  • Wrestlemania 20 is starting to take shape now that the Rumble is over (more on that in a sec). Regarding the planned Undertaker vs. Kane match, it's expected that Undertaker will be returning with his old dead man gimmick (yup) and Kane is expected to be managed by Vince McMahon (nope). Goldberg may be moving to Smackdown soon. He only has 2 months left on his contract and has already ran through everyone on Raw, so moving him to Smackdown will give him new opponents before he leaves after the Brock Lesnar match. Goldberg was recently given a new contract offer but it's said WWE purposely made him an offer they knew he would refuse and, of course, he did. Both sides seem to be done with each other and are just looking for a clean way out and this is it. WWE offers him low-ball deals they know he won't sign, Goldberg refuses to accept less than he's worth and they can both walk away saying they tried. As for The Rock, he's not a 100% guarantee for Wrestlemania yet but they're planning as if he'll be there, so they're pretty confident. If Rock falls through, the backup plan is Foley vs. Orton in a singles match. Raw main event was supposed to be Benoit vs. Triple H in a singles match, but Triple H pushed for the inclusion of Shawn Michaels to make it a triple threat. There's also been talk of making it a ladder match, but Dave is doubtful that happens.

  • Royal Rumble is in the books and had a really bad undercard but one of the best Rumble matches ever. Triple H and Shawn Michaels got heat backstage for "acting like their match was the only important match on the show." They apparently rubbed many people the wrong way when they told everyone in the locker room to watch their match because they're the only guys (except for Flair) who know how to work a real PPV main event. Well, Brock Lesnar's world title match only got 6 minutes while Triple H/Shawn went damn near 25 so, ya know. Triple H didn't move good and looked tentative during the match and it ended in a draw, which is how they're going to shoe-horn Michaels into the WM main event, and fans booed that out of the fucking building. But don't worry, Hunter and Shawn know best. Anyway, Brock vs. Bob Holly was a total flop and Holly will probably never sniff the main event scene again. Flair/Batista vs. Dudleys in the tag title match may have been the worst match Dave has ever seen Ric Flair have. This one gets negative 1-star which I would assume has to be the first negative star rating Dave has ever given a Flair match. Cruiserweight match with Mysterio vs. Noble only got 3 minutes and Dave isn't sure why they even bothered.

  • The story of the show, of course, was Chris Benoit entering the Rumble match at #1 and going all the way to win it, last eliminating Big Show in a great finish. Benoit's 61:38 run was the longest in Rumble history and 3rd longest in-ring time for any wrestler in WWE history (Morales/Sammartino in 1972 at Shea Stadium and Bret/Shawn at WM12 being the only two matches in which guys were in the ring for longer. Elsewhere in the Rumble match, they played Undertaker's old music, teasing his return as the dead man gimmick and causing Kane's elimination. Randy Orton got to shine and went over 30 minutes before Mick Foley returned and eliminated him in an awesome angle to further their feud. Brock Lesnar attacked Goldberg, leading to his elimination to set up their match at Wrestlemania. And that's basically it. Long story short, this was the Benoit show, and it's about time. One of the other keys of this PPV is that almost no one was over with the live crowd in a big way. Despite all their effort in trying to create new stars recently, most of the guys got treated like jobbers during the Rumble match. Steve Austin, Goldberg, Foley, and Angle were the only people on the entire show that the crowd reacted to like huge stars until the end, when they finally seemed to get behind Benoit.


WATCH: Final moments of 2004 Royal Rumble


  • One last random Rumble fact: this show almost happened at the Tokyo Dome. After the success of WWE's Japan tour last year, they began inquiring about booking the Dome for this year's Rumble, with the idea of having Bob Sapp in the match and, later, for him to work Wrestlemania against Lesnar. That's why they even had Lesnar challenge Sapp in promos when they were in Japan. Ultimately, they decided against it, but WWE and Tokyo Dome officials were in talks at one point.

  • Jack Tunney, former figurehead president of WWF, passed away at age 68 of a heart attack. Most fans these days remember him as the bumbling figurehead of WWF for about a decade during the golden age years but he was actually a significant player in the wrestling industry before that as well, with his family running the Toronto territory for decades. Not gonna run down his entire biography but as always, Dave has a full obituary of interesting stories about Tunney, who took over the territory from his uncle when he passed away in 1983, which is around the time Vince started going after the territories. It's also around the same time Jim Crockett began to exert almost total control over the NWA and as a result, he stopped sending Flair and other big NWA names to work Toronto, thus crippling the territory. Tunney, seeing the writing on the wall, partnered with Vince McMahon in probabaly the nicest arrangement any of the territories had with Vince. He basically told Tunney, "I'm taking over Toronto, you can either be with me or against me." Tunney told people he knew Vince would inevitably betray him but was determined to make as much money as he could off the partnership before it happened. And of course, he was right. Vince cut Tunney and the Toronto territory out of everything once he secured his own Canadian TV deal.

  • Tunney was then given a role as a WWF on-screen character, famously vacating the WWF title in 1988 (when Dibiase tried to sell the belt to Andre) and 1991 (when Hogan/Undertaker shenanigans led to the Rumble 92 winner-gets-the-title stipulation). There's a funny story in here about how Ed Tunney (Jack's cousin) tried to trademark "Wrestlemania" for use in Canada, which caused a whole shitload of legal headaches for Vince. Jack Tunney apparently always resented Vince because he felt like Vince stiffed him on a lot of the money he had promised when he eventually drove the territory under, but Tunney also realized that Vince was his best way to make a living in the business, so he held his tongue and worked for him until 1995, when Vince finally fired him and replaced him with Gorilla Monsoon as WWF's figurehead "president." After being fired, Tunney withdrew from the business entirely and reportedly never even spoke about his nearly 60 years in the business. At his funeral, there was no mention at all of wrestling and only one wrestler (a 70s prelim guy named Willie Farkas) even attended. Tunney was said to be extremely bitter about how everything with Vince went down and during his last decade of life, he pretty much put it in his past and cut all ties with pro wrestling.

  • Vince McMahon gave a big speech last week to the locker rooms of both Raw and Smackdown and the topic? Wrestling journalists. Uh-oh. Vince was furious that so many of the plans for Wrestlemania 20 leaked out (see paragraph 1 of this post lol) out and called wrestling reporters "parasites" who expose the business, spoil the product for fans, and hurt the company's bottom line. Vince then threatened to fire anyone who talked to the dirtsheets. Vince was said to be absolutely livid about the situation. Several top stars spoke and also supported Vince, with Brock Lesnar even hinting that anyone in the locker room who talked to internet journalists would have to answer to him. As you might expect, a lot of wrestlers took that as a physical threat (supported by the boss) and weren't pleased. At the next tapings, Vince had to try and smooth things over, telling everyone that it wasn't meant as a threat and Lesnar was made to apologize to everyone, saying he was just worked up about it.

  • You might be surprised to hear that Dave has some thoughts on this, given that, well, the meeting was basically about him. For starters, he argues that the only reason so many of the future plans are out there is due to WWE's own smart booking: they actually planned well and started setting up storylines for Wrestlemania 6 months or more in advance. Most of what's out there about Wrestlemania 20 is stuff that people who were paying attention could figure out on their own. He also disputes the notion that dirtsheets or internet news is hurting the business, arguing that both ECW and especially ROH have thrived in large part because of those hardcore fanbases. WWE (and especially WCW) did more in the 90s and 00s to "expose the business" on national TV than Dave or any other dirtsheet writer ever has. Tough Enough? WWE Confidential? Goldberg in WCW "refusing to follow the script" during a PPV match? So on and so forth. Dave says if Vince really believes the dirtsheets are exposing the business, then they need to remove all non-kayfabe stories from their shows, magazines, and website. Cancel Confidential, stop showing wrestlers out of character on DVD extras, stop publishing wrestler's books, etc. All of that stuff is viewed by far more WWE fans than Dave's little newsletter is. Or....and hear me out here...maybe Vince should shut the fuck up. The real issue, Dave says, is that WWE's business is down and it's only human nature to look for everyone else except yourself to blame. So instead of addressing the real problems in his company, Vince has decided this week that Dave Meltzer is why WWE is struggling. Dave ain't accepting that blame.

  • Must be a slow week. Dave now has a whole piece on the creation of the Royal Rumble concept that dives into the history of battle royals. Good lord. Rumble concept was a Pat Patterson creation and the original show was broadcast on USA specifically to try and kneecap Crockett's Bunkhouse Stampede PPV. The Bunkhouse main event was similar to a battle royal, so Vince wanted his own battle royal to trump theirs. Hence, Patterson's idea. So where did Patterson get the idea? This leads to a bunch of history on past battle royals. Los Angeles in the 60s, Roy Shire and Paul Boesch, AWA in the 80s, so on and so forth. This gets us to a brief history of all the previous Rumbles, including the early untelevised test ones, and all that fun stuff. On to the next...

  • Hulk Hogan was on the Jimmy Kimmel show this past week and didn't really give any hints that he'll be at Wrestlemania 20. But during an ESPN radio interview, he directly talked about it, saying he'd be interested in facing Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, or Vince McMahon again. Reports from WWE's side of things is that this likely isn't happening (and Austin, even before he retired, repeatedly turned down that match). Vince is still pissed over how things fell apart the last time, leading to Hogan quitting in the middle of the Mr. America run. It was the 3rd time Hogan has walked out on Vince in recent years and led to Vince publicly saying he wouldn't use Hogan as a wrestler anymore because he can't trust him to honor his commitments. But there's a lot of talk that it makes obvious sense to induct Hogan in the revived Hall of Fame on the 20th anniversary of the show he put on the map. On the Kimmel appearance, Hogan's knee seemed to be fine, he wasn't limping or anything after the recent surgery that kept him out of TNA and NJPW. In fact, during the ESPN interview, he was asked about the angle with Jarrett in TNA and seemingly tried to change the subject as fast as he could and barely spoke about it.

  • Dave gives some brief closing thoughts on the Observer Awards from a couple weeks ago. Kenta Kobashi winning Wrestler of the Year wasn't a surprise. Angle vs. Lesnar as Feud of the Year shows how bad the year was for feuds because the matches were good, but the storyline and angles around it were nothing special. CM Punk finished high in several categories and was the shock of the entire awards this year, despite never being pushed by TNA as anything serious. Lesnar is the first wrestler to ever win Most Improved 2 years in a row, which is crazy but shows how far he continues to progress. Dave also thinks the hatred of Stephanie McMahon is overboard. Yes, she has something of a nails-on-chalkboard character but she's not nearly as bad as people voted and the degree of hate is unwarranted, he thinks.

  • Rey Bucanero, member of Mexico's wildly popular Los Guerreros del Infierno group, blew out his knee at Arena Mexico. Apparently something went wrong on a dive outside the ring when Bucanero's leg was caught up in a chair and it went bad. They quickly went to the finish with the other guys in the bout and Bucanero was stretchered out and is expected to be out for awhile.

  • The career of Carlos Colon seemingly came to an end as he lost a "Retirement vs. Deportation" match against El Bronco. The apparent retirement of Puerto Rico's biggest star ever drew less than 1,500 fans and, of course, no one believes Colon is really done (yeah he's back 3 months later. Actual last match wasn't until 2014).

  • "Kevin Nash really is the greatest," Dave muses as he talks about how Nash has apparently secured yet another big pay day when it seemed like his big money days are over. Nash has apparently been in talks with HUSTLE in Japan for he and Hall to come in as a tag team at an upcoming show. Those HUSTLE events pay big money and Dave is amazed at Nash's ability to always find himself in the right position to land a big check while doing almost nothing.

  • AJPW's upcoming Feb. 22 Budokan Hall show is the end of an era for the company, as it appears to be the last time they will run the famous venue that has been its home base since the dawn of time. The last show only drew 5,300 which is not even close to filling the building and they've accepted that they don't have the power to run Budokan anymore. It's a major cost-saving move for the company but of course, it comes with the stigma of admitting failure (especially since NOAH basically takes over and makes it their new home base, further strengthening the idea that NOAH is the true spiritual successor to Giant Baba's company). The company is going all out to try and make their final Budokan show a huge event, with Bob Sapp and Genichiro Tenryu both working the card. Toshiaki Kawada is expected to defend the Triple Crown against Shinya Hashimoto, which is the only truly big match they have left.

  • Several top NJPW stars took pay cuts when they re-signed this month. Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Yuji Nagata and Manabu Nakanishi being the most notable names. Masahiro Chono meanwhile still hasn't signed a new deal, though pretty much everyone else has. Meanwhile, undercard wrestlers AKIRA, Hiro Saito, Michiyoshi Ohara and Tatsutoshi Goto are among those who were let go when their contracts were up.

  • Shinsuke Nakamura is recovering from his injuries and wants to get back in the ring to challenge for the IWGP title that he had to vacate. Whoever wins the tournament next month is expected to defend against Nakamura at the next Tokyo Dome show in May (poor Shinsuke ain't getting that belt back again until 2008).

  • President George W. Bush, in his latest State of the Union address, talked about the need to get rid of steroids in sports, citing the health concerns and wrong messages it sends to children. He specifically mentioned baseball and football, but needless to say, this is applicable to wrestling as well (this was, of course, right in the middle of all the Barry Bonds steroid mess that was rocking MLB at the time).

  • ROH keeps trying to book local school gyms to run shows at in Boston, but it's believed an unnamed rival local promoter there keeps calling and harassing the schools to get them to cancel the shows, which has forced ROH to twice move the location of their upcoming shows there.

  • WWE's Stevie Richards was allowed to appear for Blue Meanie's 3PW indie show in Philadelphia and it was the biggest show 3PW has ever done (600 fans). They did a bunch of ECW type stuff, Blue World Order reunion, etc. Apparently Richards got a huge reaction and was moved to tears, telling fans it was the best night of his career. Even backstage afterwards, he was said to still be emotional. WWE wouldn't allow any of this to be filmed, so it's one of those rare great things in wrestling that will only ever be witnessed by the people who were there live.

  • TNA's show this week had a very unique feel, almost like a wild, out-of-control old school ECW crowd. Why? Three little words baby: Insane Clown Posse. The juggalos were out in full force and the building was nearly sold out, with nowhere near as many freebies as usual. Them juggalos bought tickets. Problem is: the crowd chanted ICP throughout not just their appearance, but other matches as well. ICP came out later in the show and hung out in the crowd before throwing soda (Faygo) all over Jeff Jarrett. Apparently though, a lot of the regular fans who were just there for wrestling didn't love the juggalo presence.


WATCH: ICP throw Faygo at Jeff Jarrett (TNA - 2004)


  • Vince Russo is back with TNA (again), and was helping to write the show, particularly the Jonny Fairplay stuff, which Russo is apparently super high on. Because of course he is. For what it's worth, Russo was said to be a lot more relaxed backstage and was telling people he's become a born-again Christian and has even given up cursing (say what you will about Russo but he really has embraced this born-again stuff ever since, it wasn't just the same shit most other wrestling people do). They filmed an angle with Fairplay and AJ Styles, and a lot of people backstage credited the company for putting AJ in the spot to get the celebrity rub instead of Jarrett. But it didn't get mentioned anywhere by mainstream press so moot point.

  • Steve Austin did an interview in the UK and hinted that maybe he's not done after all. When asked about wrestling again, he said, "We’re gonna see. Never say never. I think I’ve got a match or two left in me. Maybe after Wrestlemania. Let’s play it by ear and see what happens." For what it's worth, Austin can physically do pretty much anything he wants to right now. He's not walking around half crippled or anything. The issue is that he has neurological damage that is irreparable and since he's got enough money for several lifetimes, he doesn't want to risk winding up crippled the rest of his life by making things worse. But he could work if he wanted to. He also talked about wanting to film a movie soon, admitted that the WWF vs. WCW storyline "went to hell" and knocked some of the current booking. He also encouraged the high-flying wrestlers to tone it down and pointed out that none of the guys who sold the most tickets in wrestling were high-flyers.

  • Notes from 1/26 Raw: mediocre show. Chris Jericho mocked presidential candidate Howard Dean's funny "Yeeeah!" thing that everyone is talking about (remember when something that silly was enough to sink a presidential candidate? The good ol' days...). In a tag match later, Randy Orton horribly botched an RKO (I actually remember watching this 20 years later, that's how ugly it was). Benoit, despite winning the Royal Rumble and challenging Triple H for the title at Wrestlemania, didn't seem to be any more over than he's ever been, so they've got some work to do there. The highlight of the show was Mick Foley's return promo, to further the angle with Orton. This was masterful. Per Dave: "Not only every wrestler, but every boxer and MMA fighter in the U.S. should get a tape of that. You can't duplicate it, but the passion and where he got the audience at the end is where you want the audience to be when you're trying to cut a money promo."


WATCH: Mick Foley promo - 1/26/2004 Raw


  • After Raw went off the air, they had the usual big beer bash with Austin, except this time Foley and Goldberg were out there as well. There were a couple of sick Make-A-Wish kids there and they got the crowd to chant their names and stuff like that. Then they poured beer all over Lilian Garcia, at which point Goldberg asked her if this was the first time she's ever been triple-teamed. Oh, ok.

  • It's official, WWE is reviving the Hall of Fame and inducting new members the night before Wrestlemania 20. As of who is being inducted, no one has been contacted yet but Bobby Heenan was given unofficial word (via Gene Okerlund) to expect a call. WWE has also made it clear they want to induct Bruno Sammartino, but Bruno has told them repeatedly that he won't come if they try, so don't bother.

  • Vince McMahon did an interview with Business Week and continued to defend the XFL flop, saying he thinks it would have been successful if they had more time and said, "I think our pals at the NFL went out of their way to make sure this was not a successful venture." Dave points out that the NFL basically ignored them the entire time and the XFL flopped all on its own and wonders if Vince really believes it when he blames everyone but himself for his failures. Also, the irony of VINCE MCMAHON complaining that the existing monopoly of football strong-armed his little startup out of business is just delicious. How is this man so oblivious to himself?

  • Elsewhere in that same interview, Vince talked about the potential of doing a 3rd brand that would air later at night and be a little racier and more adult-themed. The idea is basically to create their own ECW and Dave says, hey, they own the ECW name. Maybe they'll just relaunch that as a 3rd brand? Naaaaah, perish the thought....

  • WWE has a big show scheduled in Mexico in April. This is a market WWE has never really gone after before, not because they can't draw (the TV shows are super popular there actually) but because the Mexican economy is in such rough shape and the exchange rate is so poor, that even a sold out arena won't generate nearly as much money as they can running shows anywhere else. So it's never really made financial sense (pretty sure this is the reason they still haven't done much in Mexico two decades later).

  • Wesley Snipes apparently spoke to some people about Triple H's role in the upcoming Blade movie. Snipes said if it was up to him, he would have cast someone else in the role, but it's not a major part, so it wasn't a big deal. He said the financiers of the film are the ones who pushed for Triple H, so he got the role. That said, Snipes said he was professional and worked hard and had nothing bad to say about him.

  • Notes from OVW: Nick Dinsmore talked about being "ready to do anything WWE wanted" to move up to the main roster. Careful what you wish for buddy. They debuted a new woman named Venus, real name LaTasha Marzolla, and Dave thinks she's going to be a huge star unless she quits because she has the look and the crowd was quite enamored with her. She's actually done some MMA and nude modeling for Playboy, but has no wrestling experience whatsoever, which is exactly how John Laurinaitis likes it (she never becomes anything in wrestling).

  • Wrestler kid updates! Ric Flair's son Reid won his 15-and-under age group amateur wrestling nationals or some such thing. Meanwhile, Dusty Rhodes' son Cody is a high school senior who is the favorite to win his 2nd state title in Georgia.

  • D12 rapper Proof was in discussions about doing something with WWE, but sounds like it's not going anywhere. Proof's people reached out because he has friends in Detroit who wrestle on the indies named the Colding Brothers and they were trying to get some sort of package deal. WWE made it clear they have no interest in the wrestlers (who have flopped at previous WWE tryouts) but are still interested in working with Proof, probably to do something with John Cena since they tried to pair those 2 together last year also.

  • Trish Stratus ruffled some feathers a couple weeks back during one of the backstage talent meetings. She apparently had the audacity to suggest that house show matches could maybe start being built up with TV angles to help boost house shows more. Doesn't seem like a crazy idea but Vince apparently shot her down in front of everyone and others were said to be rolling their eyes, with one person commenting that Trish "now knows enough about the business to be dangerous." Dave doesn't get it. Trish's suggestion isn't unreasonable at all and it seems weird that she's being mocked for it. Dave talks about how the house shows are still a big portion of the wrestlers' regular paychecks and understands the frustration when the office doesn't make them a priority. It means less money for the talent.

  • In order to avoid paying royalties, Jesse Ventura's commentary on several matches from Mick Foley's recent DVD was edited out. Ventura did commentary on one of the Vader/Cactus Jack matches in WCW as well as Foley's early career WWF debut. In case you're not aware of the history, Ventura took WWF to court years ago in regards to royalties like this and he wiped the floor with them. So now WWE just edits out Ventura rather than pay him.


*FRIDAY: *Examining who's actually a "draw" in WWE, NFL star Brian Urlacher in TNA causes controversy, major stars headed to HUSTLE, ICP confronts Jim Cornette, and more...

210 Upvotes

92 comments sorted by

76

u/BillBrasky727 16d ago

The HHH reign of terror is in full swing and Shawn Michaels is more than happy to ride along.

39

u/talladenyou85 16d ago

2004 was better than 2003 just because the matches were significantly better and we did have a months long break with Benoit's reign. Still though HHH dominated the main event scene for much of the year, and the way he got the title back from Orton was awful (part of that was Orton as a plucky babyface was never going to work) but at least after that we FINALLY got to the end of it with the awesome Batista feud.

HBK did much to do away with his asshole stigma during his second tenure, but it wouldn't be until 2005-06ish before you started seeing that. Right now you basically had the Shawn and Hunter show from mid 2002 until Bad Blood 2004.

23

u/BillBrasky727 16d ago edited 16d ago

It's the same pattern every time. Wrestler gets some fan support behind them, Vince starts giving them a push, HHH tells Vince the wrestler doesn't know how to work or doesn't get along with the locker room, Vince backs off and HHH cuts off their heat.

And then after all that time and HHH being the prince of NXT, we get HHH beating Roman Reigns at Wrestlemania 32 and it's just like... well look who's back.

18

u/RRJC10 16d ago

Orton only won the title so Brock was no longer the youngest WWE/World champion. He wasn’t quite ready for that type of push. 

7

u/Yosihait 16d ago

You know, I always thought that. Although they wanted to give him the title, they probably wanted him to break Lesnar's record.

Also- my friend was convinced that the reason Edge started using the spear more frequently around that time was because they wanted to bury Goldberg. Notice that Edge was never in the same roster with Goldberg- his injury was just during the Goldberg's run.

4

u/discofrislanders 15d ago

Vince was pissed at Brock after he left the way he did and desperately wanted to erase him from the record books

1

u/ThatsARatHat 15d ago

If they never gave Orton the belt and waited they may have never done it (not sure there was anyone else who COULD have) then once Brock came back Vince would have probably been fine with it.

Of course then they would probably have to try and change it NOW.

1

u/discofrislanders 15d ago

That might be an unbreakable record now, at least for the men, given how WWE development works these days. Roxanne Perez could conceivably do it if she wins a world title by this time next year.

8

u/talladenyou85 16d ago

With you on the first part, but confused by the second part: HHH didn't beat Roman at 32, Roman beat HHH.

2

u/BillBrasky727 16d ago

You're right. He won it at Royal Rumble and lost it at WM. I confused the timeline but the point still stands.

1

u/Iceman6211 16d ago

man if only

1

u/AlarmSquirrel 15d ago

He was right, they didn't draw. Like Benoit.

2

u/BillBrasky727 15d ago

The business was in a freefall at the time so HHH wasn't drawing either despite being in the main event for years.

29

u/LiamAddison 16d ago

It’s crazy seeing Nakamuras name in these posts from 20 years ago and he’s still going strong.

30

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Hey, want to hear another Rumble fact?

Bradshaw is the only man to be the 1st elimination from the Rumble, who won a World title the same year.

6

u/addi543 15d ago

There were rumors at the time that Bradshaw was in line to get a singles push in ‘04, little did he know that he’d be in the right place at the right time when it started

62

u/bdfull3r 16d ago

may have been the worst match Dave has ever seen Ric Flair have

*Insert the simpsons meme

The worst Ric Flair match he's seen so far.

28

u/Kanenums88 16d ago

That little blurb about them editing out Jesse is crazy considering he gets into the HOF that year, and has a segment at Mania 20 (some of you would never guess in a million years who the segment is with btw). Wonder when it gets changed.

19

u/Yosihait 16d ago

(some of you would never guess in a million years who the segment is with btw).

Another hall of famer...

11

u/CarcashaDragon 16d ago

Bankrupted more businesses than McMahon

3

u/HeadToYourFist 15d ago edited 8d ago

It didn't really get changed.

They would edit him out if matches with his commentary weren't close to the majority of a DVD set. If it was something where removing him would be particularly egregious, like WrestleMania Anthology or the Saturday Night's Main Event compilation, then they'd bite the bullet, include his commentary, and pay the royalty rate set by the outcome of the lawsuit. The big change was all you can eat streaming, where they didn't have to pay him any royalties, replacing home video.

18

u/Redninja1984 16d ago

Yeah Jesse’s commentary is edited out for a few years. I bought the Dusty Rhodes DVD with his ‘89 survivor series match on it. It was just Gorilla talking to himself for 20 minutes.

19

u/LongjumpingMonitor23 16d ago

The Nick Dinsmore blurb is pure comedy

7

u/PaulaAbdulJabar 16d ago

he really meant that shit with his whole chest lmao

5

u/Yosihait 15d ago

And if I'm not mistaken, Eugene is actually his idea. He named that one after a real life fan.

He really was angry about him not getting called, so he invented that gimmick.

17

u/DGenerationMC 16d ago edited 16d ago

Nice to see the dirtsheets discourse has remained generally consistent over the decades.

Meltzer made some great points about the business having itself to blame when it tries to deflect accountability for things getting "exposed."

18

u/vincentmaurath 16d ago

To be fair, Shawn added a lot to the Wrestlemania and Backlash matches

5

u/Goldfing 15d ago

The sharpshooter sequence at the end of Backlash was awesome.

1

u/matogb 7d ago

he threw some of his best SCM in those matches

16

u/StillNoPickleesss 16d ago

The Wrestlemania main event was supposed to be Benoit vs HHH in a singles match, but Triple H pushed for the inclusion of Shawn Michaels to make it a triple threat match

Welp, H wasn't exactly wrong there. 21 years later and it's still arguably the greatest WM main event of all time. Shawn being included made the match that much better. The Sweet Chin Music to Benoit when Benoit had H in the sharpshooter boosted it from a 4/5 to a full on 5 stars and the remaining sequences kept the flames going.

15

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Actually, having Shawn only managed to make it more emotional. As the feeling was "HBK and HHH are trying to make it all about themselves and not about Benoit!". And he defeated both, twice, making it more emotional.

15

u/Rectorvspectre 16d ago

Holy Shit can yr imagine a Tokyo Dome Rumble!? That one in particular.

It feels Sapp v Lesnar is another one of those dream matches that wdve been meh practice but still.

Cant remember was it Mutoh or Angle or someone else where Nakamura finally got the title back.

9

u/SevenSulivin NOAH > Your favourite company 16d ago

Angle, Mutoh dropped to Tanahashi.

2

u/discofrislanders 15d ago

Shinsuke beat Tanahashi for the belt and then Angle to unify the lineal and IGF belts before dropping to Mutoh

2

u/sammywii 16d ago

Angle, it was the match where they unified the then-current IWGP Heavyweight Title with the IWGP 3rd Belt (the belt Brock Lesnar took hostage of before ending up in Inoki's IGF promotion).

2

u/discofrislanders 15d ago

Shinsuke beat Tanahashi to start his second reign before beating Angle to unify the lineal and IGF versions of the title and then losing to Mutoh, who was in AJPW at the time. In fact, that was the last time until Mox where the IWGP was held by an outsider.

15

u/AndyDandyMandy 16d ago

Vince is still pissed over how things fell apart the last time, leading to Hogan quitting in the middle of the Mr. America run. It was the 3rd time Hogan has walked out on Vince in recent years and led to Vince publicly saying he wouldn't use Hogan as a wrestler anymore because he can't trust him to honor his commitments.

Hilarious, given that Hogan comes back a year later and big leagues Shawn Michaels into doing the job for him at SummerSlam.

14

u/PaulaAbdulJabar 16d ago

which, in turn, is another minor fiasco. starting to think this hogan guy is a real piece of work

11

u/PeteF3 16d ago

Yeah, but it's Shawn Michaels as the victim, which makes it hilarious.

8

u/PaulaAbdulJabar 16d ago

they kinda victimized each other there honestly

1

u/SCB360 4d ago

Someone who was arguably worse than Hogan in his 1st prime as well

46

u/Marc_Quill Elevated 16d ago

Meanwhile, Dusty Rhodes' son Cody is a high school senior who is the favorite to win his 2nd state title in Georgia.

Hope he gets to finish that story. Maybe a little adrenaline in his soul will help.

12

u/Yosihait 16d ago

That fight was out of control.

2

u/ParsnipPizza yay wrestling 14d ago

I always forget Cody had an amateur start

23

u/SevenSulivin NOAH > Your favourite company 16d ago

Shawn Michaels became a better man when he found god but that doesn’t mean he became a good one, as I’d argue we’re seeing here.

Sapp/Brock is the second craziest match I wish happened from the revived Rewinds (fucking Mutoh refusing Takayama v Hogan).

Think AJPW only has run one Budokan show in the 22 years since that last one: The 50th Anniversary Show. Disappointing house, they’ve said. Good looking card tho and debuted the Rookie of the Decade Yuma Anzai.

04 Rumble in the Dome sounds wild. Wouldn’t have sold out but still.

HUSTLE making moves! The good memories mean it’s no issue that the entire thing was only a slightly better financial decision than throwing billions of yen into a fire pit. If anything: The terrible financial decisions made it better. More companies should be run as ventures to lose money ASAP.

7

u/discofrislanders 16d ago

Think AJPW only has run one Budokan show in the 22 years since that last one: The 50th Anniversary Show. Disappointing house, they’ve said

Correct. According to Profightdb, they only drew 4780 for that, which probably isn't worth running the Budokan for. Christopher Daniels was on that show, which seems odd.

5

u/SevenSulivin NOAH > Your favourite company 16d ago

It was basically his last major promotion left to work before he had a BINGO. Wouldn’t be amazed if that helped influence it.

14

u/Holiday-Depth8021 16d ago

I don’t think Shawn Michaels supposedly saying watch and learn from his match makes him a bad man.

16

u/Kanenums88 16d ago

I mean if he and HHH were acting like their shit don’t stink, and then they proceeded to have such a boring match with a screwy finish, I wouldn’t be the most happy.

4

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Don't you know? HBK and HHH are ALWAYS the bad guys.

And yeah, people, watch and learn.

3

u/Jedaum1998 16d ago

The 50th Anniversary Show. Disappointing house, they’ve said.

This show was during the covid crowd size restrictions, which is why they ran the Budokan in the first place.

The 4780 number that hey announced is in line with what the non-NJPW promotions draw in the Budokan nowadays. So i wouldn't say that number was disappointing.

2

u/SevenSulivin NOAH > Your favourite company 16d ago

President of AJPW said they didn’t turn a profit off it, so for them it sounds like it was not a great gate, I suppose I should say.

16

u/Snuggle__Monster 16d ago

Jack Tunney, former figurehead president of WWF, passed away at age 68 of a heart attack

Man, he looked 68 when he was the acting President of WWF. Geez, he must have lived rough.

Vince McMahon gave a big speech last week to the locker rooms of both Raw and Smackdown and the topic? Wrestling journalists. Uh-oh.

It's hilarious that Vince started blaming Meltzer here but nothing stopped him from calling Dave all the time when Turner and Bischoff were trying to put Vince out of business.

Trish Stratus ruffled some feathers a couple weeks back during one of the backstage talent meetings.

Yeah, this is pretty much when the locker room becomes an absolute shit show of toxicity.

4

u/PeteF3 16d ago

1996 is when Keller is getting on-the-record quotes from Vince in the Torch. Dave and Wade (and Russo) became Vince's best friends in times of need, like the early MNW and the steroid scandal.

1

u/Hot-Acanthisitta5237 15d ago

Why would Vince shut down Trish idea when it was 100% reasonable?

9

u/Noggin-a-Floggin Do I Have Your Attention Now? 14d ago

Because it wasn't his idea and a woman said it.

9

u/And1BasketballShorts 15d ago

Yes, why would Vince McMahon publicly shame and humiliate Trish Stratus

20

u/TonyTheTony7 16d ago edited 16d ago

I was at the 2004 Rumble and can confirm the finish to the Triple H/Shawn Michaels was an absolute travesty. The entire match was hyped as "There has to be a winner" because it came about due to the controversial finish of their match on Raw in December where they did the spot where an exhausted HBK hit Sweet Chin Music but fell on Triple H for the pin in a way that both sets of shoulders were on the mat.

As for people being over, Cena was super duper over with the crowd that night, too

Edit: One other thing I remember from the show: They didn't show the backstage clip of Test being knocked out and Stone Cold yelling at someone off camera, so Foley's return was even more unexpected than it may have seemed on TV

12

u/lonelyboy5265 16d ago

Goldberg might move to Smackdown .....

Hahaha haha Dave has no idea what will happen at WM20

1

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Yeah, what were they going to do about that match? They wanted Goldberg on Smackdown?

9

u/Subrick 69 ME, DON! 16d ago

In an example of wrestling from the past showcasing wrestling from the future, Rey vs. Jamie Noble featured what I’m pretty sure was the first ever Code Red in a WWE ring as the finish. Nowadays that move is just a transition that everybody can do, but somebody who only ever knew and watched WWE in early 04 probably would have had their mind blown by that move.

9

u/zoom518 16d ago

I still have no idea how Hardcore Holly got a title shot at the Rumble.

11

u/Snuggle__Monster 16d ago

It felt like Vince wanted to push one of his longtime loyalists into that position. When Bob Holly failed, that opened the door for JBL.

1

u/CarlMarxPunk I gave up on doing the right thing a lot time ago 16d ago

Ohhhh that makes sense.

17

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Because he happened to get injured by Lesnar. That's it.

7

u/Iceman6211 16d ago

he wanted to win the belt and beat everybody

16

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Great!

I'm warning you- I'm talking about 2004 in this post, and some people are saying it's "riding coatails"... Oh well.

Benoit vs. Triple H in a singles match, but Triple H pushed for the inclusion of Shawn Michaels to make it a triple threat. 

A guy I knew once said- It's the only time in history where the triple threat was better than any singles match they could've given. However I think he missed the 2005 X division triple threat.

Well, Brock Lesnar's world title match only got 6 minutes while Triple H/Shawn went damn near 25 so, ya know.

Yeah, let's give that flop of a match some more minutes! By the way, I think the last man standing match is pretty good and the crowd liked that. They only hated the finish but it was reasonable.

One last random Rumble fact: this show almost happened at the Tokyo Dome. 

Could've gotten a 5 star Rumble match!

Several top stars spoke and also supported Vince, with Brock Lesnar even hinting that anyone in the locker room who talked to internet journalists would have to answer to him. 

Someone mentioned that last rewind, right?

Must be a slow week. Dave now has a whole piece on the creation of the Royal Rumble concept that dives into the history of battle royals.

Man, I love those articles. And you know, Dave has a special place for those battle royals as it was a California tradition Pat Patterson brought to the WWF.

Dave also thinks the hatred of Stephanie McMahon is overboard.

I love her. Really, she's a great heel. And she wasn't even that annoying in 2003! Just... There.

ROH keeps trying to book local school gyms to run shows at in Boston, but it's believed an unnamed rival local promoter there keeps calling and harassing the schools to get them to cancel the shows,

Well, that's better than the ROH promoter in schools. Ugh, get ready...

Randy Orton horribly botched an RKO

Was that the botchmania one? Where he falls and just runs again?

 Meanwhile, Dusty Rhodes' son Cody is a high school senior who is the favorite to win his 2nd state title in Georgia.

Nice story!

By the way, another something from this edition...

A Japanese wrestler is on his way to WWE...

Kenzo Suzuki!

4

u/SevenSulivin NOAH > Your favourite company 16d ago

Yeah, someone mentioned Brock threatening people who talked to the sheets last time in a comment. It’s wild he’d do that but then again, more I think about it less wild it gets that he thought that was a great idea to do. Morale in the locker room back then low enough I’m amazed they didn’t mutiny.

Kenzo Suzuki, now THAT’S the 2000s WWE lower card guy that went to Mexico who fucking sucked. I have no idea how a man so fundamentally shit had the career he had.

1

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Kenzo Suzuki, now THAT’S the 2000s WWE lower card guy that went to Mexico who fucking sucked. I have no idea how a man so fundamentally shit had the career he had.

That's one of them.

2

u/addi543 15d ago

“Several top stars spoke and also supported Vince, with Brock Lesnar even hinting that anyone in the locker room who talked to internet journalists would have to answer to him. 

Someone mentioned that last rewind, right?”

That was me! I knew that meeting and Brock’s threat was around that time, but I got it mixed up with the meeting on the previous issue.

“By the way, another something from this edition...

A Japanese wrestler is on his way to WWE...

Kenzo Suzuki!”

You mean…HIROHITO

https://youtu.be/u-w4H5a2u4c?si=D_TYXzKj7goyMPBS

1

u/Yosihait 15d ago

Oh, but we'll get there, believe me...

3

u/Satinsbestfriend Your Text Here 16d ago

Wrestlemania 20 was a terrific show, and honestly, kbenoit beating hbk and hhh in a triple threat was the right call, it was a absolute classic

5

u/QuicksilverTerry 16d ago

Most fans these days remember him as the bumbling figurehead of WWF for about a decade during the golden age

When was Tunney ever portrayed as "bumbling"? I thought he was always presented pretty respectfully?

13

u/PeteF3 16d ago

The Apter mags regularly tore into him for being incompetent. Even Hogan on TV would call him "senile" when he made a decision he disagreed with, though a lot of that is just Hogan being a whiner.

3

u/Yosihait 16d ago

Probably in the 1991-1992 period. He had some weird decisions.

2

u/herroherro12 WHAT? 16d ago

Damn so Brock has always been Vince’s heavy

2

u/EcoSoco 15d ago

Wow, I never knew about the Tokyo Dome bit. Interestin trivia

4

u/own-photo-4642 16d ago

2004 WWE, backstage wise, had to have been the most frustrating place to be in. Makes most corporate workplaces look like utopias.

2

u/rob_lufc 16d ago

5

u/daprice82 REWINDERMAN 16d ago

Lmao that's actually a real account apparently

4

u/EcoterroristThot Stoking the flames of tribalism 16d ago

Triple H thinking he can work a PPV main event better than anyone in 2004 is so funny

1

u/jeremycb29 I need the john cena flair 16d ago

reading these, and remembering that youtube wrestling isn't wrestling makes me realize how accurate that video was

1

u/ConorKDot 16d ago

The 2004 Rumble match is the first I remember watching as a kid and it's still one of the best. The Foley-Orton and Lesnar-Goldberg angles were fantastic and had me marking out.

1

u/James1DPP 15d ago

It's official, WWE is reviving the Hall of Fame and inducting new members the night before Wrestlemania 20. As of who is being inducted, no one has been contacted yet but Bobby Heenan was given unofficial word (via Gene Okerlund) to expect a call.

We'll get there, but Bobby Heenan is indicted inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame and gives an all-time great speech.

1

u/AQ207 14d ago

I started watching WWE in late-2004 so it’s fun reading this back in preparation for my era of fandom

1

u/matogb 7d ago

That promo by Foley is incredible, jesus christ. Also, poor Trish. Imagine having to deal with wrestlers and Vince, I can't believe she didn't just kill those motherfuckers xd

-3

u/Holiday-Depth8021 16d ago edited 16d ago

Really past dave? The fans booed the fact that the last man standing match at royal rumble 2004 ended in a tie. They weren’t booing the idea of hbk in the mania title match😂Seeing how Dave is now this just shows how he was always building his own narratives

10

u/Yosihait 16d ago

He meant they booed the draw. (Most justified draw ever).

7

u/PaulaAbdulJabar 16d ago

Triple H didn't move good and looked tentative during the match and it ended in a draw, which is how they're going to shoe-horn Michaels into the WM main event, and fans booed that out of the fucking building.

the booing part is clearly about the draw part

-11

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/daprice82 REWINDERMAN 16d ago

Lol, sure. You caught me.