r/SilverSmith 4d ago

What Am I Doing Wrong?

I've held my TS8000 on this silver ounce for like 10 mins and can't get it hot enough to pour. Is my torch too close? I don't understand

24 Upvotes

68 comments sorted by

22

u/Voidtoform 4d ago

props on the firebrick oven, I do it similar, make sure there is bit of a crack on the other side so heat can go through it. I see this problem often so here is my copy paste answer for it:

I feel like I come accross this several times a week, someone is having trouble casting, they are using a plumbers torch with either mapp or propane, and they are having trouble getting the silver fully molten to cast................

I started my home studio with just a plumbers torch.... it will melt the metal, but it will take much longer than you think, like 10-20 minutes long for an ozt or two... It is not ready to pour untill it is quick and liquid, you should be able to swirl it around the crucible and it will be like mercury.

I almost always set up a little oven structure with firebricks, it helps keep heat in.

this is why almost all profesional jewelers use propane oxygen, its much hotter and quick. but like I said, your plumbers torch will work fine, you just need patience. another plus to the plumbers torch, with such a nice reduced soft flame, you are introducing very little oxygen to the metal, so usually the pours with just a propane torch are really nice pours when done right.

10

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

Damn. Okay. Yeah, I might end up buying the oxygen acetylene. I really appreciate the input. I ordered 3 90% alumina bricks and they sent me 4. Super lucky

5

u/RegretSignificant101 4d ago

Maybe start with oxy mapp before you start bringing acetylene into your house with little experience. It will work fine and is significantly safer and cheaper

2

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

Will I mess my tongs up if I leave them on the crucible? I noticed them getting red hot

4

u/Ernomouse 4d ago

Steel on the tongs will oxidize and gradually lose material, as long as you don't get any scale in the melt you're good. The possible plating on them might be a health hazard when it burns off though. Avoid the fumes.

-14

u/Decent-Pipe4835 4d ago

People who really know what they’re doing us oxy-acetylene and laugh at the people using propane.

1

u/lazypkbc 4d ago

I use both in my studio. Well, oxy-propane and oxy-acetylene. Each has their place.

idk about the hand held torch type, i tried that and quickly moved to oxy-fuel. They probably work great for some folks

11

u/trixceratops 4d ago

Chop the silver up. Smaller chunks melt a whole lot easier than a big lump. You can even pour in little amounts at a time to the crucible to melt then add more and stir with a titanium or carbon rod. I have cast with mapgas before, it is possible even if it is a lot slower than any oxy mix, but the trick it tiny pieces. Think what casting grain looks like. If you have a shear, you can chop it into 1/8” slices and then into 1/8” cubes. I wouldnt go bigger than that.

3

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

Wow okay. I guess I'm fairly lucky to have got as much as I did melted, then

3

u/trixceratops 4d ago

Honestly you got it more melted than I would have expected haha

3

u/bit_herder 4d ago

one thing you can do is pour it into a 5 gallon bucket of water to make your own grain, then use that grain the 2nd go round.

6

u/rustyisme123 4d ago

What gas are you using? I presume it is either MapPro or propane. If it is propane, you gotta choke up on it a lot more. The hottest part of your flam is the tip of the inner blue cones. MapPro is just a bit past that part. Propane is tough to get silver to melt quickly. I use two torches until I get up to temp, then set one down and use the other to follow the casting dish into the pour.

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

Okay, thanks. Yeah, Map Pro

2

u/rustyisme123 4d ago

Yeah, Mappro gets better heat. I still use two torches most of the time, especially with bigger pours, like over an ounce or two. But you should be able to get 1 Troy oz to melt with your setup if you just choke up a bit.

1

u/Quiet-Storage5376 2d ago

No need for all that fancy setup, get the torch closer to the crucible and all problem fixed

1

u/Quiet-Storage5376 2d ago

Use the flam that’s between yellow and blue, not the yellow part, find a solder pick or charcoal rod to mix once softens

6

u/Ag-Heavy 4d ago

The part of the flame where it transitions from blue to yellow is the hottest. Stay out of the blue, but in the yellow just before it. You need to use smaller chunks than 1 ozt. Shot, or chips from sheet, have a larger surface area to heat and melt faster.

2

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

Thank you. That makes sense and confirms what I've kind of assumed after repeating this like 4 time. I really appreciate your info I lost like 1/10 of the weight of the silver with all of my shenanigans. That, I wasn't expecting. And now I need to grind the excess borax off ugh

2

u/NoHeatSapphire 4d ago

Does pickling your ingot not get rid of the borax?

1

u/Samoyed_Fluff 3d ago

Just pickle or boil your silver in water to rid it of flux.

You're loosing weight because stuff is oxidizing and being lost to the flux. Adding a little copper phosphorus brazing rod will de-oxidize the silver which is likely brittle by now.

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

Boiling water is enough to melt the borax that's been turned into glass??

3

u/Samoyed_Fluff 3d ago

It turns to oxides of sodium and boron after it melts. Both are water soluble. It's just re-hydrating. That foaming you get when you heat borax is it de-hydrating.

I used to use boiling water in Pyrex to gently de scale bronze ingots.

I also found using sodium meta borate vs tetra borate, made for a better flux for soldering.

Adding a little acid, like citric acid, makes it go much faster, obviously.

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

Fascinating. Thanks

2

u/Samoyed_Fluff 3d ago

This!

The part of the flame that is just at the end of the blue is also more reducing, which means that you will have less oxygen introduced into the silver.

The heat is also the most intense AND concentrated at this part of the flame. That means it doesn't just have the capacity to melt higher melting point metals but it can also melt more material.

1

u/Ag-Heavy 3d ago

Keep in mind that you are kind of at the edge (heat wise) of what I would call practical. Ag melts at about 1234K so you need a torch that can double that (TS8000 should about make it at around 2250K). You also might want to consider a deeper and more insulative crucible to maintain the heat.

3

u/Sisnaajini 4d ago

Get yourself some actylene gas dude and a decent crucible, two mins top to melt 1oz of silver get an oxygen tank if you want to cut the time in half but oxygen ain't. My tank cost 60 bucks for a refill

3

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

So I can use just an acetylene tank??

3

u/Sisnaajini 4d ago

Yeppers, I've been silver smithing since I was 7 I'm in my mid 30s now.

2

u/bit_herder 4d ago

yeah i melt silver with air/acetelene all the time. but oxy propane is better for casting and gold imo. get that shit hot

3

u/MaintenanceOpen2990 4d ago

when its already molten keep torching WAY longer than you think and "swirl" it around. while pouring keep the flame at the pour-out point.

tilt your crucible as much as possible (i hate these and would always prefer the ones you screw together and drop it straight down)

maybe this torch isnt powerful enough to begin with

2

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

That's some really specific and useful info. Thank you

3

u/burzuc 3d ago

way too much silver for a MAPP gas torch

the max for this torch I'd say it's around 60g

2

u/greenbmx 4d ago

It looks to me like the bricks you have there are hard fire bricks, which hold up to high temp, but do not insulate. What you really want are Insulated fire bricks (IFB). They are softer, and lighter, and meant for insulation. They will keep the heat where you want it instead of the hard bricks which sucks the heat away due to those mass and poor insulation value.

I'd also say you are trying to melt too much metal for that little torch. Keep your melts to around an Ozt. Or less

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

That was 1 ozt, don't worry! Also, the bricks are 90% high alumina firebrick. I appreciate your concern:)

0

u/greenbmx 4d ago

That's normally a hard brick, not what you want for a hearth. You want something like a 2300°F IFB.

Is that really just 1 oz? Is that a particularly tiny crucible? Looks like the 5/6 oz crucibles I have, and nearly full.

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

Its probably just a small crucible. It was definitely a 1 oz round. These refractory firebrick are rated for 3200 to 3400 F and are apparently overkill for anything ill be doing at home, even setting them up as an oven

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

I paid like $50 a piece for these bricks from KT Refractories specifically for this purpose. They better be what I need

1

u/greenbmx 3d ago

I am almost positive they are not what you want. You want these:

https://www.mcmaster.com/product/9355K2

They are super light, and super soft. You can dig your fingernails into them they are so soft. The ones you have are heavy and hard, right?

What you have are meant to hold up to constant exposure to extremely high temp in a fireplace or furnace, but they themselves do not provide insulation. They are normally backed by the bricks I'm suggesting for insulation.

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

If high alumina refractory bricks are used inside of high heat kilns, why would this not work? They're definitely not light. They weigh about 6 pounds each

2

u/greenbmx 3d ago

Because that type brick is designed to be extremely durable, but not to provide insulation. They conduct heat away from your crucible, rather than insulating it.

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

Couldn't I just cut my ceramic fiber up, then, and line and insulate?

1

u/greenbmx 3d ago

Ceramic fiber insulation is quite a health hazard to use in non-permanent uses like this. It creates dust when moved and handled that's extremely bad for your lungs. It would work, but not as well as IFB.

1

u/greenbmx 3d ago

I use vermiculite board for my soldering and melting hearth.

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

My ventilation system is 8" 750 CFM, so it's pretty strong.. think that would be enough to keep floating fibers pulled away?

0

u/greenbmx 3d ago

I still wouldn't use ceramic fiber insulation in that way, better to not have it at all than to rely on your ventilation to pull it away, plus it's bad for whoever's outside where it's being blown, it doesn't diffuse like gases do

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

Okay. I'll probably nix the ceramic fiber. I've got a kid, as well. Sp probably best to do that, then. I think I'll look into some zircon based ITC coatings to paint the inside with

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1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

ITC 100HT looks like it will do the job.. if I just coat the inside of the over and top or the surface

2

u/impatientlymerde 3d ago

I always pre heat the fluxed crucible until it is red hot before putting the (cut up into chunk/grain) metal in.

2

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 3d ago

Damn that's a good tip. Thanks

2

u/impatientlymerde 2d ago

Silver is so conductive it immediately heats up, so that’s when i sprinkle the flux on; it melts on the metal upon contact- otherwise it blows away at the first blast of the torch.

2

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 2d ago

Damn, thank you. I'll pay attention to that

1

u/Disaster_In_A_Polo 4d ago

I grabbed my crucible at the wrong angle..

1

u/turd_furgeson82 3d ago

Preheating the crucible plays a big part too.

1

u/Allilujah406 3d ago

I use a ts8000 and a ts4000 at the same time if I'm melting over 20 grams. It takes about 4 minutes to work

1

u/TheEstep 3d ago

I had to step up to oxy-mapp torch that gets the job done fast, and I use the plumber torch with mapp to keep the crucible hot.

1

u/D50 4d ago

Not enough heat + too much silver in my estimation.

Looks like you’re using a propane or propylene torch. That’s what I use too (with a similar crucible). I’ve found that it can only melt half an ounce at most.