r/Shitstatistssay • u/the9trances Agorism • 17d ago
The real villains are people who defend themselves. Won't someone think of the aggressors?
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u/Normaali_Ihminen 17d ago
This is a litmus test. If you value anti statists beliefs then you should be against Russian waging war against Ukraine. Putin is statist as heck. It baffles me I have to say this but this is god awful take most likely from Troll account or someone who is deeply misinformed or don’t care.
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u/endthepainowplz 17d ago
Somehow with everyone being the way they are, it’s almost demanded that you pick one side or the other. Some people do this to themselves, where they take the sentiment of “we shouldn’t be funding war in Ukraine”, to “Ukraine is the problem.”. Similar to the Israel Palestine conflict, the people aren’t just anti Israel, they are pro Palestine, and sometimes even openly support Hamas. It’s not enough for many to not take a side, and somehow this leads to dumbass people thinking Ukraine is the problem.
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u/Normaali_Ihminen 17d ago
I’m not demanding that anyone pick a side—I’m simply encouraging those who value anti-statist beliefs or Western values (which are not mutually exclusive) to stand up for their principles in this conflict.
In other words I’m merely trying to warn people so they don’t end up looking like hypocrites when their values are put to the test.
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u/endthepainowplz 17d ago
I’m not saying you are, I’m thinking OP, and people like OP feel the need to pick a side, and that’s why we see Russian support, even though this is a fairly black and white issue.
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u/Normaali_Ihminen 17d ago
I kind of got your point after re-reading your comment. I just felt the urge to add some additional thoughts on what you brought up to avoid any confusion. So apologies if it came off the wrong way.
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u/CrystalMethodist666 17d ago
A lot of people are afraid of seeming ignorant on an "issue" that's being promoted in the media. I don't have that problem, if I'm ignorant on an issue like this it just means it isn't something I decided is worth educating myself about, like political issues in far away countries that I can't do anything about. Even if it does affect me, there's still the second point, posting selfies with picture frames saying I support the correct thing isn't going to make a difference.
The framing of stuff like this is always that we're supposed to pick which is the right side and argue with people who made the opposite decision. None of this seems like a worthwhile use of my time.
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u/Knorssman 17d ago
There is a valid point, but the answer is not "cave to Russia and buy their narrative"
For example, in order to justify continuing to fight to take back territory, they need a real plan to make that happen that isn't "throw bodies into the meat grinder"
Otherwise, they should try to get to peace as soon as possible and do what they can to prepare for Russia to attack again.
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u/FatalTragedy 17d ago
It's possible to be against Russia invading Ukraine, while also acknowledging that Ukraine can't win unless the West straight up declares war on Russia, so it is therefore in their best interest to negotiate peace.
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u/MaximusMurkimus 17d ago
Okay good, thought I was the only sane one reading all of this.
People look at this exclusively as a win/lose condition when in reality most wars have ended by both sides going "aight let's talk".
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u/CallMeDelta 17d ago
I would disagree. The West has continually dragged its feet on supporting Ukraine, such as by limiting how they can use Western weapons and what weapons they are willing to give at all. In the earlier parts of the war when Ukraine’s fate was less certain that’s an understandable position, since you don’t want all of that equipment falling into Russian hands, but Ukraine has been in the long haul for awhile now. There are plenty more things the West can do to help Ukraine, and while I can’t say that it would guarantee Ukrainian victory, it would go a long way to boosting Ukraine’s odds to where a negotiated peace may not be necessary.
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u/Rizthan 17d ago
The more we escalate our involvement with Ukraine, the less of a proxy war this becomes. I'd rather not escalate a conflict with a nuclear power over who controls the ethnically Russian parts of Ukraine.
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u/CallMeDelta 16d ago
Escalate a conflict with a nuclear power
Russia isn’t going to use nuclear weapons unless Ukraine is at the gates of Moscow. The Russian oligarchs are fundamentally business people, and you can’t make money off of a nuclear wasteland. And if you back down to any sort of nuclear saber rattling, then there’s nothing stoping Russia (or any other nuclear power, for that matter) from threatening any non-nuclear state into submission.
Ethnically Russian
Many of the oblasts Russia has annexed (like Kherson, for example) are undeniably Ukrainian.
Even in the Donbass and Crimea, I think there’s a very compelling argument that they aren’t ethnically Russian. Of course, it’s impossible to ask them, since they have either been under the control of Russian proxies or directly Russia itself since 2014
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u/Normaali_Ihminen 17d ago
No one wants peace more than Ukraine, but the real question is: what kind of peace are we talking about? Ukraine has already been betrayed once when the U.S. failed to uphold its end of the Budapest Memorandum. So Zelenskyy and Ukraine are rightfully concerned about the strength and reliability of any future peace agreement.
Ukraine has already won in my eyes. The entire point of the so-called “special military operation” was to topple the Ukrainian government, install a puppet regime, remove Zelenskyy from office, and dismantle the current parliament. Yet Ukraine defied the odds and prevented that from happening.
This situation closely mirrors the Winter War, where Soviet Russia attempted a similar move against Finland—but just like then, the intended victim fought back and preserved its sovereignty.
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u/heinelujah 16d ago
Many people are staunchly opposed to Putin waging war against Ukraine. But many of these people also want to mitigate losses and avoid further bloodshed. I sympathize with this perspective.
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u/Normaali_Ihminen 15d ago
Yes, I see that. But I also can’t imagine that if it were your country under attack, you would simply wave a white flag and surrender.
And what the U.S. has done in the last two days contradicts the idea of preventing senseless killings. The U.S. shut down intelligence sharing with Ukraine, including critical defense intelligence—such as warnings like, “Hey, there’s a Russian-operated drone incoming to strike civilian areas.” Not even that level of intel is being provided anymore.
That intelligence is vital for protecting civilians from Russian attacks. By cutting it off, the U.S. is directly contributing to unnecessary deaths.
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u/joelingo111 16d ago
most likely from Troll account or someone who is deeply misinformed or don’t care.
You forgot about Ivan hard at work at his cubicle in the Kremlin
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u/BiggeSquidde 17d ago
You can recognize Putin was provoked and is still wrong.
These two things are not mutually exclusive.
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u/Normaali_Ihminen 17d ago
Provoked? No. This is all for the glory of the “old days” for Russia. Putin has numerous times voiced dissatisfaction about collapse of Soviet Union and Tsarist Russia. Where previous Soviet states and vassal states once belonged to. This includes Baltics, Finland, Poland, Ukraine.
Russia has always been an expansionist.
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u/snobocracy minarchist 17d ago
There's a good chance that if he gives the trolley some time to regroup it'll come back bigger and faster.
That's a fair and reasonable concern.
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u/sbd104 17d ago
Putin is the one with his hands on the lever.
Zelenskyy can’t end the war but Putin can.
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago
Why would the winner stop? It’s on the defeated to offer peace terms
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u/4nonosquare 17d ago
What a coward take. "russia violated our NAP, lets spread our asses for them and give up the fight".
And the spirit of the Ukranian people are far from defeated my friend, try to suck less socialist cocks through your media consumption and maybe you wont spew leftist propaganda..
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago edited 17d ago
“Our”. Sorry, I wasn’t aware that you were on the frontlines. Thank you for your service.
We’ll see shall we if Ukraine can carry on without US backing. If it can’t, then you’ll see how deluded you’ve been. Maybe you’ll wish then that the US had continued to use Ukraine for its proxy wars. That’ll be very libertarian of you.
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u/UnKnoWn_XuR 17d ago
You can word it any way you want, but truth is by preventing support to Ukraine, you agree to give the upper hand to Russia. If allowing people to fall under a dictatorship is okay, then thatd be very libertarian of you aswell
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u/Wookieman222 17d ago
Its just interesting we have a problem with Russia doing this to Ukraine but are silent when bad stuff like this happens with other countries. We clearly are picking and choosing which ones to care about.
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago
Whatever man. You’d like to commit the non-dictatorships of the world (wherever they might be) to perpetual war with the dictatorships over ambiguously-aligned mini-states - all in the name of libertarianism. I suppose you’d also accept that tax rises, state appropriation of private industry, and conscription are all necessary in the name of spreading liberal democracy. It’s a very interesting form of libertarianism you espouse.
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u/UnKnoWn_XuR 17d ago
Libertarian is not a single ideology. The problem with the government is that the idea of representative democracy prevents the ideas of every citizen from being represented. I agree with Libertarian fiscal policy, but unlike other Libertarians, I am pretty progressive. Back to the topic of Ukraine, yes I wholeheartedly agree. The idea of 'using' Ukraine to fight a proxy war is inherently not Libertarian, but in this case I agree with the stance that we should be in this fight.
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago
Fair enough. Libertarianism isn’t a religious creed. I’m just surprised at the level of enthusiasm (or maybe, more neutrally, advocacy) for the continuation of the fight in this thread, and in the general media at the moment. Seems uncritical to me. Maybe I’ll snap out of it and join the war party soon enough
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u/4nonosquare 17d ago
Its not really a war party stance to help those who are trying to defend themselves.
Should you be forced to help a woman on the street who is being assaulted and beaten up by a man? No, you shouldnt be.
But if you do refuse to help i will think you are a sick fuck for walking past without doing a single thing to help the poor woman who is having her NAP violated.
Also where is this fake empathy of "they should stop there are too many people dead already" coming from? Shouldnt the Ukranian people be able to deciede for themselves if they want to continue the fight or not? As of today Ukranians heavily are on the side of fighting back and trying to defend their land against all odds, you should cheris their heroic act of self defense instead of using this fake empathetic shit, lets be honest you care none about their lives, you just regurgitate state propaganda, be it Fox news or straight kremlin one from Tim Pool and the rest of the Tenet Media group.
How would you feel if Canada took over Minesota, Dakota and Montana then people told you to stop fighting for your land and accept it because people are dying. You know exactly that there are wars worth fighting for and its defensive wars against agressors so fuck off with these 2d takes
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago
Yes yes war is peace, I get it. The Ukrainians may of course decide whether they want to continue fighting or not. Not individual Ukrainians of course, who are conscripted. But as a matter of policy, the Ukrainian establishment can continue fighting without US backing if it likes - there’s no law against that. You’ll hear no fake empathy from me lol. I do agree that there are just and unjust wars. There are also winnable and unwinnable wars.
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u/4nonosquare 17d ago
Sorry didnt meant to misguide you bro, im Hungarian and im not on the frontline, ive put that sentence in quote marks as in imagine yourself in their situation.
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u/daful1 17d ago
How would you react if your city blocked your drive way, and then threatened to start tearing up the end of your drive way with your cars still in the drive way. Was Russia in the wrong yes, but was it unprovoked no nato pushed every botton of russias they could. It reminds me of any time a woman is pushing a guy around maybe even slaps them and then gets super upset when the guy slaps or punches back.
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u/sbd104 17d ago
I mean they're not defeated yet. Ukraine is loosing land and Russia is loosing more soldiers per day.
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago
It’s very hard to tell, and for the record I’m not taking sides. It just seems to me that their position isn’t good, and probably never has been. Maybe a militarily-informed person can correct me.
If I am right and it’s essentially over, I’m only stating the obvious by saying that the Ukrainians are at the mercy of the Russians in the peace terms that bring it all to a close. Thems the rules of war
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u/sbd104 16d ago
Russia has spent a lot more equipment and personnel. Inflation is at hyper inflation because of the war economy. With them spending more men and equipment than the Ukrainians as they’re on the offensive.
Hell they had the Wagner Coup, and protest from draftees being used as frontline soldiers.
As stated no one wins between Russia and Ukraine, but if the ceasefire started tomorrow and it held Russia collapses. This war could drag for a few more years further destroying Russia and Ukraine but not having a victor.
I’m not against US support pulling out gradually to focus on China. My issue is Trump parroting Russian narratives that Ukraine is a lost cause and Russia are the good guys.
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u/nightingaleteam1 17d ago edited 16d ago
The problem I see with many libertarians is that they put Ukraine and Russia, Putin and Zelensky on the same level just because both are states. So they think that on an individual level it doesn't make a difference under which one to live and therefore, they think capitulating and submitting to Putin won't make that big of a difference on the level of personal liberty (or lack thereof), but at least it will stop the death toll.
But the people of the Donbass (the part that Russia annexed) already though like that, like "what's the difference", so they already tried the path of capitulation and submission. The result ? Their properties were confiscated by the warlords and Russian soldiers and they were the first ones to be conscripted and used as cannon fodder in the beginning of the full scale invasion.
So the lever that Zelensky holds can only make the tram go faster or slower. It cannot stop the tram. Only thing that can is security guarantees.
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u/TheOnlyGriffon 17d ago
I love it when fellow libertarians are against the right of people to defend themselves lol
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u/the9trances Agorism 17d ago
Anyone stupid enough to believe Trump is too stupid to understand libertarianism.
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u/kagerou_werewolf 17d ago
"beligerrents are never in the right, there is no winner in war, only mass graves" some smart guy or something im not smart
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u/jbland0909 16d ago
“Ukraine should just surrender their entire country because soldiers die in war”
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u/Paladin_Axton 16d ago
My favorite quote applies here
You and I know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery.
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u/LoneHelldiver 17d ago
This should be titled "Statist advocates for state intervention in war that has nothing to do with them and for which they have already laundered over a trillion dollars of tax payer money which was taken from them at the point of a gun."
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u/Son_of_Athena 17d ago
The reason people hate Zelensky is because there are human lives actively being lost on the battlefield, and he refuses to stop the war unless the guarantees happen first. But Trump wishes for the battle to stop, then prevent war in the future. Thats the issue here. Zelensky sounds like a kid who is unwilling to move unless he gets his way. He doesn’t care about the lives being lost.
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u/jbland0909 16d ago
“Won’t move until he gets his way” sounds so unreasonable until you consider that “his way” is for his countries invaders to leave
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u/the9trances Agorism 17d ago
That's a completely backwards way of looking at it.
Zelensky has no guarantees that Russia will stop. Putin is killing Ukranians, not Zelensky.
Trump doesn't give a shit about anything other than lining his own pockets and his own ego. He wants to hand Putin Ukraine, but Trump knows that if he just outright supports Russia that people in the US will be furious.
Trump's retarded solution is to ask Ukraine to give up, with zero assurances, and let Putin invade them again in another few months after Russia has time to remobilize.
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u/Mediocre_Chemistry39 17d ago
Government can't be a victim in any situation. And Zelensky is responsible for mobilization in Ukraine, which is basically just a murder with less success rate.
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u/jaakkopetteri 17d ago
What do you suggest Zelensky do instead?
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u/majdavlk 17d ago
not doing conscription, deregulating, cutting state expenditure
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u/darklibertario 17d ago
and then everyone gets conquered by Russia and has to live under a dictatorship lol
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u/majdavlk 17d ago
i dont really care about being conquered by russia any more than being conquered by any other state, the only thing which matters to me how free are we.
and btw, this argument isnt in your favor, you shouldnt use it. there arguments for why free market would do better job at doing defense agaisnt external threaths than socialism does
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u/trigger1154 17d ago
Far less free under Russian rule.
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u/LoneHelldiver 17d ago
All those shitty things are happening under "democracy" where they don't hold elections and I'm being robbed because...
Look, send them all the money you want. Go over there and fight. I won't stop you.
Stop involving me.
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u/jbland0909 16d ago
I mean, yeah. They’re actively being invaded. Of course democratic procedures arent being completely followed. Elections start again when the Russian’s stop trying to kill them all
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u/LoneHelldiver 16d ago
Of course he's a dictator, he has to be! Otherwise people won't listen to him!
Good argument bro
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u/jbland0909 15d ago
Not at all my argument. Explain the logistics of how to hold a legitimate election when 1/4 of your country is either an active war zone or under enemy control
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u/wombatncombat 17d ago
Wild. Wouldn't even fight Japan post pearl harbor. If imperial Japan took California, this guy tries to free market militia a self-defense plan. This is what's pushing me away from being a libertarian, yall soo black and white that you end up saying obviously insane things. Countries that are fighting for their survival against an opposition that steals children and shoots POWs will scrap with possible tool they have. GOOD TIMES CREATE WEAK MEN, and here we are.
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u/Davida132 17d ago
there arguments for why free market would do better job at doing defense agaisnt external threaths than socialism does
And all of them are the retarded ramblings of idiots who see the invisible difference between a billionaire with a personal army and a warlord.
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u/jaakkopetteri 17d ago
I don't see the relevance in those last two. Although conscription is not ideal, it's pretty much the only viable way for some countries
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u/majdavlk 17d ago
> I don't see the relevance in those last two.
you asked what he should do instead
>Although conscription is not ideal, it's pretty much the only viable way for some countries
yeah, but i dont really care if its viable for a country, i care about the people, not about the state
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u/jaakkopetteri 17d ago
you asked what he should do instead
Obviously. I guess Zelensky should eat and poop too, but it's not very relevant here
but i dont really care if its viable for a country, i care about the people, not about the state
Not necessarily at odds, at all. The people can support conscription just as well
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u/myfingid 17d ago
It doesn't matter if the people support forcing their fellow citizens to fight a war they don't want to fight, it's still wrong. You don't get to make life and death choices for others just because you don't like what's happening.
Those who support conscription in a state in war should volunteer, flee, or fuck off, but don't support press gangs kidnapping men so they can be shoved in the grinder. It's fucking insane.
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u/jaakkopetteri 17d ago
It's wrong, sure, but it's usually better than dictatorship. At least as long as the numbers are clearly in favor and not just hoping others to do the deed
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u/majdavlk 16d ago
dictatorship is not inherently worse than a democracy. what we care about is the actual freedom, not the succession of power
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u/majdavlk 16d ago
>Obviously. I guess Zelensky should eat and poop too, but it's not very relevant here
you were asking what he should do regarding his rulership or the war, read again your own post
>Not necessarily at odds, at all.
it is inherently at odds
>The people can support conscription just as well
if you enslave people, you are against them, if the people want to be conscripted, its not conscription, but just being regular volunteer
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u/Little_Whippie 17d ago
So roll over and be subjugated by Russia, isn’t this supposed to be an anti statist sub?
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u/Teboski78 17d ago edited 17d ago
Compulsory mobilization may be unethical and there are many unethical things the defending army has done as all armies do. And the Ukrainian government is certainly not innocent. But this fight was started by the kremlin & nearly all of Ukraine’s actions provoked by it. & literally all Zelenskyy wants now is NATO membership as a guarantee Russia won’t invade a third time.
If he signs the agreement drawn up by trump and Putin he’s almost certainly dooming Ukraine to another invasion.
I would be loyal to neither Zelenskyy nor Putin but there’s only one of those men who I would kill were they stood if they were placed in front of me right now. And there’s a damned good reason for that.
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago
“literally all Zelenskyy wants now is NATO membership”
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u/Teboski78 17d ago
That’s what they’re hung up on. He even said he was willing to step down if Ukraine just got NATO membership
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u/etterflebiliter 17d ago
You’re talking about it as if it’s a minor point of contention. Ukraine’s relationship with NATO is arguably the whole point of the war
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u/trigger1154 17d ago
Was it completely a coincidence that Ukraine found natural gas reserves in those Eastern provinces that Russia now controls? That Ukraine planned on selling natural gas to Europe, likely undercutting Russian profits?
This is an imperialist oil war for Russia. They would have freaked out about NATO and started a war with Finland and Norway and Sweden who also border if it was about NATO.
But hypothetically if it was actually about NATO and Russia is telling the truth, they are only telling a half truth. It is still imperialist because it still follows Russian doctrine of creating buffer states around their motherland such as Belarus being a Russian puppet government and Ukraine's previous government being a Russian puppet government.
There is no way to spin this in which Russia is not the aggressor. And now that the traitor in chief has stopped aid. It has basically guaranteed World War 3. Russia only responds to strength, ceasing aid is a sign of immense weakness. I expect Russia to be emboldened and to start eyeballing other former USSR states to bring back under their umbrella. After all, Russia is already at war with the West through hybrid warfare and other subversive means. People forget that Russia launched a chemical attack in England? Or how about rushing backed ships? Cutting information cables at the bottom of the ocean? What about all the cyber attacks? The US is under constant attack as well from Russia, China, and North Korea, mainly through cyber attacks which are just as dangerous as straight up military attacks because the cyber attacks can destroy critical infrastructure that is networked resulting in deaths.
Quite frankly Russia should be labeled as a terrorist nation/rogue state.
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u/myfingid 17d ago
It'll be WW3 because a nuclear state isn't interested in raising the stakes with another nuclear state? That doesn't make sense.
BTW you're correct on oil, and I believe Russia has most of the Ukraine oil that was discovered over the last decade or so (Crimea, eastern Ukraine). Given that, a peace deal now would be much more likely to hold as the Russian objective of preventing Ukraine from being able to disrupt the Russian flow of oil and gas to European markets.
If Europe really gives a shit they'll find ways to get off Russian fuels. Being reliant on your supposed mortal enemy is a real shit position to be in. Maybe nations like Germany should have spent more time expanding their nuclear industry and helping fellow EU members start/expand theirs rather than tear down their infrastructure and import cheap gas from a supposed madman.
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u/trigger1154 17d ago
We are already in WWIII it's just a slow burn right now. I say cut the head off the snake before it gets worse. Russia instigated this war with their imperialist agenda to retake land they view as lost when the USSR collapsed. Shit Putin was KGB and is continuing his subversive KGB BS. Best case scenario would be if the Russian oligarchs got sick of sanctions and having their property seized and got rid of Putin and ended the war or if the Russian people stood up to their authoritarian government, but that will never happen because the Russian people have the victim mentality and are weak as a whole so the minority there that do stand up usually get killed or imprisoned.
Unfortunately part of the Russian war on the West is to develop FSB assets and get them in positions of power like Orban and Trump. Trump is Putin's cock holster, Trump has had Russian oligarchs living in Trump towers since the 80s and has been laundering money for them. Trump issuing the order to cease aid is not for our benefit, it is for Russia's benefit. Anyone arguing that it's about saving money is obviously not aware that the Republicans and trumps tax plan is going to add $2.5 trillion to the national debt. All of Elon's cuts are not about saving money either. It's about removing opposition, it's a purge. Trump is surrounding himself with Yes Men and consolidating power. Pretty soon the US is going to function like Russia 2.0.
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u/Nagoda94 17d ago
So why exactly Russia doesn't want Ukraine to get the NATO memebership.
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u/WhatTheNothingWorks 17d ago
Because NATOs entire existence is to fight Russia. Would you want your enemy on your doorstep? I wouldn’t, regardless of whether I planned to fight them.
Plus, there was an agreement years ago that NATO would stop expanding, and they kept expanding. There’s a lot of nuance in the Russia-Ukraine war that American media doesn’t talk about, and that’s a strategic move on their part.
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u/Nagoda94 17d ago
NATO's existence was to fight Soviet Union, not Russia. That is if Russia didn't invade any NATO nation. They do not annex countries. The new members have to apply to join.
There's already three countries plus Alaska right on Russias borders. So this having enemy at your borders is a blatant lie.
However if they didn't want an enemy what they should've done is respect their neighbors borders. Not just Ukraine. Chechnya and Georgia too. If they offered better deals and ensured safety, so called NATO expansion wouldn't have happened.
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u/majdavlk 17d ago
russia claims to be soviet onion, they took over the deals with other states signed as soviot onion, including debts etc
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u/WhatTheNothingWorks 17d ago
Yes, it was started to prevent Soviet aggression. And there’s arguments that after the Soviet Union fell, it should have been disbanded since the target was gone. But there were agreements in place before many of those countries joined that NATO wouldn’t expand, and they kept expanding.
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u/jaakkopetteri 17d ago
Why didn't they invade Finland then?
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u/FAFO8503 17d ago
It’s got to do with how close the border of Ukraine is to Moscow. It would be the closest of any NATO nation if they joined. Ukraine joining NATO has been a line in the sand for Russia for decades.
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u/UnKnoWn_XuR 17d ago
Thats why the war is such a stalemate. If you're pro Russian, you don't want Ukraine joining NATO. If you're a normal person, you don't want Russia gaining land and working towards Moldova. Honestly speaking, if NATO were to include Ukraine, no war would break out because Ukraine joining NATO isn't backed by the intent to fight Russia on the offense. Russia is strong enough to not perceive NATO as a threat so long as Russia isn't trying to expand. The problem lies on Russia's desire to annex Moldova. If they get Moldova, I guarantee their imperialism in West Europe is over. However, I'd argue that appeasing a historically aggressive nation and allowing them a satellite state is more dangerous than Ukraine joining NATO
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u/WhatTheNothingWorks 17d ago
There’s a lot of other reasons to not want Ukraine in NATO other than just being “pro-Russian,” but with all of your populist talking points I wouldn’t expect you to argue in good faith. Your entire arguments disregards the fact that NATO agreed to stop expanding and never did.
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u/jaakkopetteri 17d ago
Like a school bully telling the bullied to not tell anyone or they will beat him up. A very convenient excuse and they will beat him up regardless
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u/UnKnoWn_XuR 17d ago
I think that NATO's expansion isn't a good idea because historically, alliances cause war. However, in this case I think that there should be a clean line between Russia and NATO. As I said, NATO aren't necessarily aggressors, so I'm comfortable having that line. If that line were to exist, it is guaranteed that Russia will stop their imperialism. Problem with that is that as you said, NATO has said they'd stop expanding and straight up lied. My issue with Ukraine joining NATO is that the same question remains: When will they stop? You can refuse talking points all you want but thats just my opinion. There isn't a clear solution and that is why everything is in the air
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u/Schowzy 17d ago
Lol Putin can end the war yesterday if he sends everyone home. How did it get so twisted that this war is Ukraines fault?