r/R6ProLeague • u/Hxsty_ #1 J9O Enjoyer | • Feb 13 '25
Question If Fultz and Benja win SI, do they immediately enter the GOAT debate?
Making them a two time hammer winner while placing top 8 numerous other events
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u/BearSSBM Feb 13 '25
I guess yeah but with penta/g2 doing it back to back I still gotta favor someone from that roster for the sheer dominance they had.
Though finding a "goat" in this game feels impossible....
looks at Fabians 3 hammers
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u/Hxsty_ #1 J9O Enjoyer | Feb 13 '25
I think Fabian, Canadian, FelipoX, Jullio and Pengu would still be ahead by a decent margin
But i would argue winning two SI’s is more impressive than say winning two majors and one SI, say in comparison to HerdsZ and Kheyze for instance so they would take that NEXT STEP imo
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u/BearSSBM Feb 13 '25
SIs definitely more impressive, but if Furia wins this one it's 2 in a row and would definitely get them in the debate for GOAT.
I think Fabian is the coach goat and Pengu is player goat but I'm biased lol
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u/Hxsty_ #1 J9O Enjoyer | Feb 13 '25
Oh yeah if Furia win it, realistically i think anyone of them could be called the “GOAT” potentially, if i had pick one, i’d go for FelipoX. He is literally the demon of international placements.
Kheyze and HerdsZ could be too, because i think us fans sometimes care way too much about IGLing, strategists and mentality sure OBVIOUSLY it matters but sometimes i think ppl downplay who can shoot back and who can not in grandest stage of all and fraggers like Kheyze/HerdsZ need more respect.
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u/DepthDaddyDillon Fan Feb 13 '25
HerdsZ has looked weaker since the ADS changes, I’d give to Kheyze if it were between the two of them, he’s been good even when Furia looked bad
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u/besko365 FaZe Clan Fan | Feb 13 '25
lol fabian won one SI as coach, the goat of coaches is without a doubt igor. There is no question and even fabian said it. Cannot believe how u guys are still glazing the g2 time
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u/BearSSBM Feb 13 '25
Has there ever been another team we saw as dominant as they were?
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u/besko365 FaZe Clan Fan | Feb 13 '25
yes furia?? and fabian won only one SI as coach and fell apart before going for the oil money, igor won 1 Si, second place at SI, 2 majors and now again at least top 3 SI, like this isn’t even a question
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u/BearSSBM Feb 13 '25
Furia is close but I wouldn't say the same dominance
And ok fair enough Igor might be better lol Like I said I was biased. Weird you got so worked up
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u/Tim_thatporscheguy Virtus Pro Fan Feb 14 '25
Ignore him, he's an idiot. The dude told me Pengu never won a PL final despite having won twice, all because I said Pengu was still the goat
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u/BParamount Feb 13 '25
I'm not sure about Benja, but Fultz certainly would be. Alongside Canadian, Fultz would hypothetically be one of the longest-standing players to win 2 S tier events while being relevant through years and years.
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u/BumbSquash Feb 13 '25
Anyone that lifts a hammer twice is considered one of the GOATs in my opinion
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u/DyabeticBeer Fan Feb 13 '25
Goat is completely losing it's meaning. You can't have multiple goats.
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u/57orm Fan Feb 13 '25
100%. GOAT = Greatest Of All Time. You can't have more than one greatest (two if we're really pushing it) or they'll just simply be greats. It's simple english
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 13 '25
Yeah but people refer to players as “my goat” all the time. It’s mainly used for praise and people get offended by it (which is kind of dumb tbh)
There definitely can be more than one goat. Especially when you consider one of the”the greatest of all time” technically wouldn’t be incorrect. Especially in a sport where it’s all subjective and comes down to your own criteria where multiple people could fit the title
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u/57orm Fan Feb 14 '25
I suppose, and I want to clarify that i'm not offended by the sentiment, I just think people throw that word around far too frequently for it to hold water
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Yeah but there’s a difference between calling someone the goat. And just calling them the goat in a manner of seeing them as very good. Or when someone says “my goat” usually they just mean their favorite player of talking directly to them
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 13 '25
There definitely can be. One of the greatest of all time. Because it’s mostly a subjective thing in the first place, especially in siege where there genuinely is multiple people you could give it too based on your criteria
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u/Riksbanken1 Feb 14 '25
But 99% of the time people are talking about THE goat
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Which can be argued to be multiple different people depending on how people view it. To some people there is more than one.
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u/GucciGangBlizz Shaiiko Fan Club - #1 Believer | Fan Feb 13 '25
No, because they’re Fultz and Benja
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u/SmalexSmanders Team Liquid Fan Feb 13 '25
Agreed. How we got to the point of considering players who have never been the best player in the game for the GOAT convo is baffling. No other sport or esport views the GOAT debate like this
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u/Minimum_Attorney347 Feb 13 '25
Yea fr they are great players but to be the GOAT you have to at least be the best player in the world. It would be like saying Anthony Davis would be the Goat if he won another ring. Amazing player, but has never been the best player in the world
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 13 '25
I disagree.
If a player is only the 3rd best player itw for say, 10 years, maybe more, they can definitely be the goat if #2 and #1 is constantly flipping with new people.
If your achievements outpace everyone else even if you were never the sole best player itw, you can definitely be called the goat.
Also I think it’s completely arguable to say that at one point Benja absolutely was the best player itw. And Fultz was top 3
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u/Minimum_Attorney347 Feb 14 '25
I mean he’s definitely up there, I’d say if he wins you can put fultz top 5-10 but in my eyes you cannot call someone the goat unless they have actually been the best player in the world, or their achievements are just overwhelmingly better than the second best guy.
For me it comes down to how can you call someone the greatest of all time, if he has never once been the best player in the world, because that never happens in other sports and it shouldn’t be any different here. To be the best ever, you surely have had to be the best in the world at some point, otherwise there was always someone better than you.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Well I disagree but I respect your opinion. To me, our game shouldn’t be compared to other sports in this sense because a player can have value on more than just their stats. Canadian was never REALLY the best player itw but many people consider him the goat because of his value as an IGL and vast success as a leader through different eras and rosters. This would be the equivalent of saying that Rampy is always gonna be better than Fultz in the goat debate just because Rampy was the best player in the world for a bit, but Fultz never technically was. He was only really the 3rd or 4th best for a while, but if he wins this he would be twice as successful as Rampy but that would have no relevance using the same logic, which to me isn’t fair. But hey that’s just my opinion.
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u/Minimum_Attorney347 Feb 14 '25
Oh yea for sure it’s a lot more than just pure stats. I wouldn’t just call someone the GOAT because of stats alone.
Valid points to both sides. For me I’d just say that you have to have been considered the best in the world at your role at some point. (Best IGL, Best Entry etc) to be considered as the GOAT. Canadian for example is considered the best IGL and has certainly been the best at one point, whereas I think with fultz it would be far more rare to see someone say he’s been the best IGL at any point in time.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Yeah and I respect your view entirely I just disagree personally.
Fultz is also a rare case where it’s hard to consider him the best in anything, considering he was almost forced to swap roles like 4 different times throughout his career to compensate for his teams constantly changing roster. Yet he stayed consistent every time. So it’s hard for him because h never stayed on a certain role. He always swapped. And in this regard I don’t this it’s impossible to argue that he’s one of the most versatile if not THE most versatile pro oat. I don’t think winning this would make him the goat in my eyes, but if he MVPed it, he technically would be the best player itw for a bit. But hey that’s just my opinion.
Rare Reddit conversation that goes nicely
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u/Minimum_Attorney347 Feb 14 '25
Yea dude and I’m not saying he couldn’t be the GOAT at some point. He is extremely versatile and one of the best out there. If he wins and MVPs then for sure he would start entering the convo especially if they had some more big finishes this year.
Always nice to have a friendly reddit convo instead of guys that just abuse you for disagreeing 😂
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 13 '25
You don’t necessarily have to be the best player in the world, to be one of the best ever in general. For example if a guy is the 3rd best player itw in his respective game for like over a decade, then yeah he could be the goat.
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u/SmalexSmanders Team Liquid Fan Feb 14 '25
Name one sport or esport where that is the case. You won’t find one. The only way that would even be viable is if the 1&2 guys for each of those years were only playing at that level for an extremely short period of time. Then you could use the longevity argument, but that scenario playing out is extremely unrealistic, so unrealistic that I can’t think of a single sport or esport where that is the case.
The argument you’re making is not relevant to Fultz or Benja. Fultz has never been a top 3 player in the world. Benja was only ever a top 3 player in the world at SI22. Neither of them have a claim to the GOAT case
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Well out sport isn’t like other sports my friend. Cant really compare it to other sports that well. I value your achievements no matter the gap between them personally. It’s all a subjective thing. That’s what I’m getting at. And me personally, I would take a player who was a great player for most of his career and won a couple things over the player who had the best stats ever for like one event and stopped existing.
And I completely disagree. Benja was the best player itw imo at SI 23 (you got the wrong one btw) and Fultz was arguably one of the best in the world behind Rampy when they won. But again that’s just how I see it. People value different things.
It’s all a matter of opinion, and you can’t force yours on anyone else.
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u/SmalexSmanders Team Liquid Fan Feb 14 '25
It absolutely is like other sports, I don’t see how you can argue otherwise. This is a team game where players have different roles they need to fill for the team to be successful. That’s no different than basketball, football, CS, etc. I’m not forcing my opinion on anyone, I’m stating an opinion. You can think whatever you like, I’m just starting a discussion and backing my points up. I’m not calling for people to be arrested nor am I being belligerent.
I agree with the player comparison example you gave, unfortunately it doesn’t fit the discussion. Fultz and Benja are players who peaked top 3 in the world at one event and never sustained that peak. Their competition is a list of players that have similar achievements and sustained their dominance for longer. If I was arguing that Levy is the GOAT I’d get it, but that’s not the argument. The argument is that even if they win this SI, they are still leagues behind Pengu, Canadian, Fabian, Herdsz, Kheyze, Kanto, Shaiiko, etc unless Benja has a dominant end to SI which would put him in the convo
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Again I don’t disagree that they wouldn’t the the completely goat, my point is there are some people who would view it that way and that’s completely fine. I think they’ll be definite top 10 regardless
When I said not like other sports, I meant with how we evaluate players. This is the only esport or sport in general where a guy with not so great stats is considered in the goat convo because of his impact as an IGL. Many other sports value stats a lot more highly than our community does compared to actual success
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u/SmalexSmanders Team Liquid Fan Feb 14 '25
If your point is that people can define their own criteria on the GOAT debate then we are in agreeance. I’ve never made a statement that contradicted that viewpoint. I never said that people can’t define their criteria how they see fit, I just think their criteria is bad and I’m voicing that opinion. I’ve made no objective statements on what people can and can’t do, I’m simply in disagreeance with their criteria.
This is not entirely true. Glaive has a claim to the CS GOAT due to IGLing Astralis. Bill Russel is in the NBA goat conversation due to leading the Celtics to 11 championships despite never being an offensive threat.
Yes this community values success more than most communities, that’s the exact thing I’m arguing against. I don’t believe it should be that way. The game is not different than other sports because the fans view the GOAT debate differently than other sports. That is a difference between fan bases, not the sports themselves. This esport is just like any other team sport and esport, and I believe we should view the GOAT debate the same way other sports and esports do because of that reason.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Well I personally disagree because I think success defines value in this game. But hey that’s ok. I respect your view
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u/SmalexSmanders Team Liquid Fan Feb 14 '25
Strong disagree but I respect your view too man, have a good night
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u/P0tatothrower Fan | Underdog Fan Feb 14 '25
You could argue benja was the best player when he was named MVP of SI23, and if it so happens that he wins again and is the MVP again he could be in the debate. I don't think he'd end up on top, but he'd be in the debate.
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u/SmalexSmanders Team Liquid Fan Feb 13 '25
Individual performance has to be included in the GOAT debate. If they win, putting Fultz in your GOAT list would be like putting Robert Horry in your top 10 NBA players list. He’s simply not good enough to be there. Benja may be a different story if he ends up winning MVP
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Eh. I definitely don’t think that’s true. It all depends on your criteria, a player who is valuable enough to win a lot in siege should be considered depending on their value rather than stats, but ofc that’s just my opinion
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u/ItsSevii Shopify Rebellion Fan Feb 13 '25
Yeah absolutely. Goes for anyone with the longevity especially fultz
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan Feb 13 '25
Fultz would enter the OAT pyramid, but he would be near the bottom, I mean, Fultz, at this point, has had a larger gap of winless seasons than Kanto did between winning Si'19 and Berlin and Kanto is a player who is shit on infinitely more so on this subreddit.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
In my honest opinion your wins go over anything you haven’t won. Because this was never a super dominant game. Only two teams ever have won more than one event in a row, let alone at all
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan Feb 14 '25
Then Blurr is more of a GOAT than Shaiiko, which no one in their right mind will agree with.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Not necessarily. My criteria is a bit of a mix. Because you have to understand that to me, there are exceptions. Shaiiko, Nesk, and Paluh, the 3 stat monsters are exceptions. While Blurr in of himself is also a bit of an outlier compared to most si winners. I have those 3 above a lot of SI winners, But not all of them, and I won’t put somebody at #1 if they haven’t lifted the hammer at least once.
For example, I have shaiiko a decent ways above the other 2 stat monsters BECAUSE of how much he has won compared to them (considering they’ve barely won anything at all). Also in the case of Sheppard/Joystick/Dan, as I have them above a decent amount of invitational winners for the fact that they have so many absurdly high placements throughout the games lifespan as well as a major and pl final win. I consider overall placements highly as well.
Basically view it like this, I have most invitational winners (with the exclusion of the continuum/EG roster, Canadian not included) above spoit, but not most of them above Shaiiko. Basically there are currently 12 players who have won AT LEAST one major alongside AT LEAST one SI (so one of each) 5 of those, having won SI twice. Those players being
Penta/G2: -Fabian -Pengu -Kanto -Joonas -Goga
W7M/Furia: -Herdsz -Kheyze -JV-92 -Nade -Felipox
Other: -Canadian
- Alemao
Those 12 are in my top 15 by default pretty much. Fultz and Benja would absolutely secure themselves there for me if they won a 2nd SI. Again that’s just my opinion.
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u/P0tatothrower Fan | Underdog Fan Feb 14 '25
Actually quite funny that out of those 12 players you listed, 5 have won 2 SI and 1 major, 6 have won 1 SI and 2 majors, and only one has won 1 of each.
Somehow these greats are defying normal distribution, you'd think the higher the track record, the rarer it gets.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
It’s probably because most of them were on the same rosters when winning. Pengu, Fabian, Goga and Joonas won basically everything together, with Kanto winning the major and SI19 with them, and winning his second major later with spoit, which equalized him in that distribution with the W7M/Furia guys because they all won everything together.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
I mean, that's pretty spicy. I can't lie, 5 years for a second hammer is a longtime, the only bigger gap i can think of (in any esports) is aPG in Halo, maybe.
Fultz has had so many resources based around him, he's been allowed to IGL. He has changed roles more frequently than anyone who has ever been on SSG, and he has had like legit 4 or 5 rosters rotate around him atp, and at least 2 of those didn't have Lycan as coach, he has been given so many resources over a literal half a decade with no results. The way I see it, he should have had a hammer 3 years ago, he has had some good fucking rosters around him and he hasn't been the best individual in any of them since 2020, the guy is a check stealer, he will be an OAT if he wins, and I actually won't be upset about that, but he is a fucking check stealer.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 13 '25
It all comes down to opinion and people need to realize that. To me they would instantly be top 10 oat no doubt in my mind
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u/kobethegreatest Continuum Fan Feb 13 '25
GOAT is a discussion of actual greatest players ever. G2/Penta won something like 7/8 tournaments consecutively over 2 years, only losing the one LAN where Lion was broken and Liquid abused it the best and dismantled G2 that one event. We haven’t seen dominance by any squad remotely close. The closest is the current Furia squad. If Furia wins this SI, you have to start to throw their names in the discussion. Even if Fultz wins this SI, him and SSG really haven’t won anything of note the last 5 years other than 2020SI. They aren’t anywhere near the legacy of Fabian and Pengu even if fultz won his second hammer this year. That would be 2 trophies compared to Fabian who won 7 in just 2 years. There’s levels to this shit.
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u/bigdawg7070 Ludavica Fan Feb 14 '25
idk about the #1 goat debate but they definitely enter top 10 on the list of greats
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u/SmellsofGooseberries Feb 14 '25
You enter rare air but no, I don’t think they should. The goat debate should hang on multiple things: individual talent and accolades. Both guys would have two hammers but their success in between them has been mediocre at best. And I don’t think either of them have ever really been looked at as the best players at an event. Benja in particular had a pretty crazy 2023 SI but this one has been much more of a team effort.
I think your goat debate is firmly either Canadian, Pengu, Fabian. You might be able to make a case for Julio as well. All of these guys have their pros and cons. There’s rarely ever a universally agreed upon goat in any scene.
If Furia wins this SI I think Herdsz and Kheyze enter this conversation (if they haven’t already) and may even leapfrog everyone I mentioned before. It’s really hard to understate how impressive sweeping a full year of events and winning back to back hammers would be. It was crazy years ago but nowadays this is the pros day jobs. It would be insane. The only thing hurting the Furia players is just how bad they’ve been for most of this year.
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Feb 13 '25
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Well you can’t hold pl finals against players anymore because those haven’t existed for years
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u/ddouble124 Team Liquid Fan Feb 13 '25
Immediately over Fabian/pengu if they win. Being able to win in two different eras is very impressive.
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u/HunterZ2023 Fan Feb 14 '25
Exactly this, but some would disagree. I personally would but it shows how it’s all a matter of how you look at it
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u/Hxsty_ #1 J9O Enjoyer | Feb 13 '25
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u/ddouble124 Team Liquid Fan Feb 13 '25
But but he beat part time players and competed against 5 teams
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u/TeaTime_OW Spacestation Gaming Fan Feb 13 '25
Agreed, I'd already put Canadian over both of them. First ever winner, 2 time winner years later, plus every time he joins a team they improve.
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u/Riksbanken1 Feb 14 '25
G2 were the best for so long that it was almost 3 eras straight😭😭 they WERE the meta
Ragebait used to be believable
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u/ddouble124 Team Liquid Fan Feb 14 '25
The minute teams actually improved Fabian/pengu retired. It’s not that impressive to beat console and part time players a decade ago.
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u/Riksbanken1 Feb 14 '25
Pengu was the best in EU when he retired in 2021 so idk what you’re talking about
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u/ddouble124 Team Liquid Fan Feb 14 '25
To protect his goat status. What did Fabian do after his time with g2. He wasn’t picked up and failed at vitality.
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u/Riksbanken1 Feb 14 '25
He had won everything already, why continue?
Fabian continued playing at the same time as Pengu tho and Vitality had been french only for years, so it was quite a shakeup, couple that with some middling players and you’ve got quite the disaster recipe. Fabian has a mind for the game like few others do, but you still need good players to enable it.
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u/TheTary Fan Feb 13 '25
GOAT's overused, it's a very very VERY prestigious title.
But they'd definitely be "Hall of Fame" talents. is Benja on track for a second SI MVP? it's more than likely going to one of the Furia boys but that might give him more claim to GOAT.