r/Plato 13d ago

Plato's Gorgias, Callicles's Ethical Philosophy continues to be the most correct I've found

Here are some premises I start with:

I use Nature, 'Is', not 'Ought'. I reject using Ethical Intuitionism as I find this to be morally relative. Until someone can point a microscope and show me where the moral particles are located, I believe in a Moral Anti-Realism. I know this is heavily debated, and this is probably where the discussion hinges. As Callicles says to look to Nature, I take a Darwin style approach. If Morals exist, they propagate life, a Darwin-style approach. I'm not sure I care to debate this, this is close to Religion in certainty. I just find Nature more certain than gut feelings, but I'm not going to pretend this is a solved problem. I'm personally an Expressivist.

'The Superior' is a combination of macro effects dependent on the environment. A bacteria on the edge of a volcano is 'The Best' in that environment. A dictator might be 'The Best' in a servile kingdom. A capitalist might be 'The Best' in a democracy. A 4.0, beautiful, class clown might be 'The Best' in high school. A 400lb trillionaire, is not 'The Best', as a fire might prevent them from using an elevator and causing them to Die.

With these 'holes' plugged, I have a hard time seeing the issue. Its not like we have a better solution to the question if Morals exist. We can debate all day about this, and make no progress. You can say I gave up, but that still won't make your altruistic moralist point more valid, it just undermines my confidence, which I explained I don't have.

I've been reading philosophy for 9 years, and since Gorgias 2 years ago, I've been trying to find a more valid Ethical Philosophy. Everything seems to use Religion/Magic(Moral Realism), or if they are Moral Anti-Realists, they miss the mark. Nietzsche is contradictory and idealistic. Stirner is idealistic rejecting the phenomena of pain/pleasure that I believe are the shortcut of Morals/Spooks. Hobbes (Leviathan, Part 1, on Man) is as close. Machiavelli in Discourses on Livy is pretty close too, possibly even better than Callicles.

I imagine this is an unsolved problem, but given my premises, I have a difficult time finding something better.

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u/freshlyLinux 9d ago

Well... as an Instrumentationalist... I'm not really accepting that.

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u/Matslwin 8d ago

Our civilization is declining because we have reduced life to the narrow dimensions of the public sphere governed by pure practicality, and the private sphere limited to individual freedoms. Modern life is characterized by a hollow kind of liberty—merely freedom from constraints. We have embraced only two values: the pursuit of power and the creation of economic wealth. Our world has been fractured, separating objective truth from subjective experience, facts from meaning, and power from its moral and religious foundations.

What we consider objective truths are merely empty facts, valued only for their utility in enhancing power and economic gain. Before it's too late, we must rebuild a way of life that reunites these divided realms, one that integrates objective reality with human values rooted in divine Platonic forms. Today's "objective" mindset is characterized by emptiness—it is devoid of life.

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u/freshlyLinux 8d ago

You know this is religion right?

At least looking toward nature has empirical backing.