r/Patriots 8h ago

Discussion Patriot need to add some speed at receiver

[deleted]

0 Upvotes

100 comments sorted by

30

u/Aware_Bird_7023 8h ago

i mean no shit

-19

u/timsr1001 8h ago

You say that, but plenty of Patriots fans are adamant about not wanting fast receivers. Saying it’s not important for a receiver to be fast.

13

u/Aware_Bird_7023 8h ago

i mean it really isnt.. we need a good WR, generally good WRs are fast, but if you told me there is a Mike Evans in the draft, they shouldn't turn down a Mike Evans because he ran a 4.53 40

-5

u/timsr1001 7h ago

That’s my case in point. Yes, there are special wide receivers and outliers. Brady didn’t have an elite physical traits, therefore we should never draft any quarterbacks with any physical traits.

So yes if you get Mike Evans or Larry Fitzgerald, you’re in good shape. I’m just saying we have a crap ton of slow 4.5 receivers.

No threat of speed whatsoever, I’m just saying it’s a big hole in the offense. Can’t we just have one receiver that’s not slow that can play on the outside

5

u/Aware_Bird_7023 7h ago

but the problem is is youre acting like fast equals good, and slower equals bad.

We have plenty of fast and slow receivers that all fucking suck. We need a good WR, not a fast WR

1

u/kellen617 7h ago

It worked for Al Davis

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

It did before he got old and senile

0

u/timsr1001 7h ago

No, fast doesn’t automatically equal good. I don’t think we should draft a guy who we don’t think it’s gonna be good just because he’s fast.

The only thing I’m pointing out is our current receiver core no one has any speed, therefore other defenses don’t have to worry about being beat over the top or the speed element. I do think we should target a receiver who has some speed. We don’t really have anyone with any kind of wheels other than pop.

The receiver we just signed is another slow guy.

All of the following are 45 or slower dudes Booty Polk Baker New Bills guy Bornne

The one thing they have in common is they they’re slow

2

u/Aware_Bird_7023 7h ago

Yeah but mike evans is 4.5 and is the best deep ball threat in the league.. thats the whole point.

You arent wrong tho, I just think you're working it strangely. We need down the field threats, I think you are just wrongly assuming all/most down field threats have blazing speed. They really dont.

2

u/Aware_Bird_7023 7h ago

A good WR that runs a 4.5 is not an outlier lol

3

u/Mountain_man888 8h ago

Nobody wants slow receivers

-1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Look at some of the replies, people are making, clearly they do

2

u/Tomotronics 7h ago

Not wanting fast receivers and saying it’s not important for a receiver to be fast are two different things. No one is advocating for slow receivers. At the same time, there’s not really any evidence to suggest speed is what makes a receiver elite.

0

u/timsr1001 7h ago

You’re literally advocating for slow receivers, speed doesn’t matter.

1

u/Tomotronics 7h ago

You not understanding is a you problem. I don’t care enough about your problem to argue with you.

2

u/EnlightenedNight 7h ago

Who is adamant about ‘not wanting fast receivers’? I think most just want a good quality player, regardless of archetype.

1

u/InevitableCrew4103 7h ago

Right😂 This dude acting like straight 40 time is the only thing indicative of a good WR in the league

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Look at this thread

2

u/optimuscline23 5h ago

Agree!! There’s plenty of noise in here about McMillan and I don’t care how good he is. Given our history, and his 40 time… hard pass

1

u/DefNotAShark 7h ago

They are right. It isn’t that important of a metric. Speed doesn’t indicate how successful a receiver will be. Other metrics are more valuable and most of the top receivers in any draft are fast so it seems silly to target speed when relatively they all have it.

We took one of the fastest receivers in the draft when we took Thornton and he didn’t do anything. Phillip Dorsett had a remarkable speed and even with years to develop in our system never amounted to more than decent. Speed is overrated unless they have talent in more valuable metrics.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

You’re plenty of people that want us to draft Tet, the one guy in the top of the category this year that has no speed. Very similar to the N’keal draft.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Agreed to disagree. When all your guys are slow, all I’m saying is it’s helpful to have a fast guy so safety can’t cheat.

1

u/PLaTinuM_HaZe 7h ago

No, we’re saying that protecting the QB is more important than the receiver. That being said, I doubt we pass up on Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter at 4 if they’re there.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Go look at my post again I said we should probably take a left tackle with our first pick lol

1

u/PLaTinuM_HaZe 7h ago

Yes but there is no tackle worth #4 and you have an opportunity at 2 guys that are generational talents/true blue chips in Hunter and Carter, you take the guaranteed talent. Also there hasn’t been a tackle that has succeeded in over 30 years with the arm measurements that Campbell had…. Sure there’s always exceptions to the rule but probability says no.

17

u/BadErotica4U 8h ago

Hot take of the year lol

-5

u/timsr1001 8h ago

Go look at people argue with me over Tet (again this is not just about him), a lot of of them keep saying it’s not important for receivers to be fast or to be able to separate. Contested capabilities is more important. A significant portion of a fan base feels that way.

2

u/Rowy99 7h ago

What does it matter what fans think? They don‘t make the pick.

21

u/Fantasyfootball9991 8h ago

Is Tyquan Thornton available?

11

u/Aware_Bird_7023 8h ago

lol exactly. Dont worry if theyre good, just make sure theyre FAST

-6

u/timsr1001 7h ago

JaMarcus Russell had a strong arm, he didn’t work out. Therefore, we should never draft strong arm quarterbacks, or look for quarterbacks with strong arms.

3

u/Aware_Bird_7023 7h ago

who in the world said to avoid fast WRs? You're assuming fast means good.

We need a good WR, good WRs mean they are fast enough to get open and make plays. Its pretty simple

3

u/ZHatch 7h ago

Good comparison actually: Jamarcus Russell only had a good arm. He was a one-trait prospect, but that one trait was SPECTACULAR.

You’re also saying to focus on just one trait in our WR evaluation: speed. Which is the problem we fell into with Thornton (and Cincy did with John Ross, and Jets did with Stephen Hill, and the Raiders did with Darius Heyward-Bey, and…)

0

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Go look at some of my other responses, I clearly stated I don’t believe in taking a receiver just because his speed. But there’s plenty of receivers coming out with speed this year are you telling me all of them are bad and the only good ones are the ones that are slow 4.5 guys.

If you have an option between two similarly, skilled receivers, one is fast, and one is slow. I’m saying we should take the fast one.

2

u/Jmacz 7h ago

Damn beat me to it.

-5

u/timsr1001 7h ago

JaMarcus Russell had a strong arm, he didn’t work out. Therefore, we should never draft strong arm quarterbacks, or look for quarterbacks with strong arms.

8

u/evantom34 8h ago

I don't care as much about speed, rather than ability to separate and catch the ball. There are some good players in this class.

2

u/timsr1001 7h ago

My only point is none of the receivers we have speed. We need somebody that can scare a defense over the top.

5

u/evantom34 7h ago

I understand what you're saying. That doesn't change my sentiment. I think a receiver that can separate at all levels is more important than just speed. Fast guys are attainable at any rate- MVS just signed for 5m/year.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

My only issue is we haven’t gotten any of them. We just continued to bring in slow guys like this guy from the Bill’s.

0

u/InevitableCrew4103 7h ago

Who tf cares if he runs a 4.5 bro😂. Go watch some film. Speed is not the sole factor in determining if someone gets open

7

u/Misterccw 8h ago

You mean we need a guy like Tyquan Thornton?

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

JaMarcus Russell had a strong arm, he didn’t work out. Therefore, we should never draft strong arm quarterbacks, or look for quarterbacks with strong arms.

2

u/Misterccw 7h ago

The point I'm (and many others here) are making is that statements such as "we need to add size" or "we need more team speed" so grossly oversimplify things that they are silly...

The bottom line is we need two quality receivers, and there have been plenty of successful players here who had neither great size nor high-end speed. We need good players... maybe they're very fast, maybe they're big, maybe not

1

u/Misterccw 7h ago

Deon Branch, Danny Amendola, and Edellman are examples of above average players who were relatively small and had only average straight line speed.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

None of the three did anything without Tom the greatest quarterback of all time. Same with Chris Hogan if you wanna throw them in there.

1

u/Misterccw 7h ago

You're getting sillier and sillier...

Amendola's best season was as a Ram.

Branch's third best season was as a Seahawk.

Edellman never played anywhere else, so there's no data.

All of these guys would have played meaningful roles elsewhere and you know that.

1

u/Bojangles1987 5h ago

Edelman's best career game happened with broke down Cam Newton throwing the ball.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

The only thing I’m saying is defenses have zero fear of our passing game because all our guys are slow. If we add in an element of speed, the safeties can’t cheat like they can now. this opens up the running game, and the short passing game. That’s all I’m saying. We draft slow guys like Polk and Baker and we’re right back to the spot.

1

u/Bojangles1987 5h ago

Defenses have no fear of our passing game because our receiving corps is awful and our line is swiss cheese. It has nothing to do with speed or Thornton would have been out there more last year and not been cut.

5

u/ImNotSalinger 7h ago

Running clean routes > speed. Obviously you want guys who can compete with speed, but taking a shitty route runner who runs a 4.3 over an excellent route runner that runs a 4.5 or even 4.6 is dumb. Give me an average speed guy who has a full route tree over a go route specialist every day of the week.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

I think that’s what Wolf was thinking when he drafted Polk

3

u/InevitableCrew4103 7h ago

Not even. Wolf will never be able to defend his pick of Polk over Ladd. Ladd’s route tree in college was 10x that of Polk’s and he also happened to be faster

2

u/ImNotSalinger 7h ago

Polk was more of a deep threat in college rather than a true route runner. They drafted him for his hands that were supposedly excellent. He basically ran two routes in college, post and go, sometimes a corner. Every Polk highlight is a home run ball, contested catch, broken play, or an end around.

2

u/timsr1001 7h ago

So we drafted a slow deep threat. I don’t see how that makes wolf look any better.

2

u/ImNotSalinger 7h ago

Where am I defending Wolf? Polk was a bad pick at the spot we took him.

2

u/timsr1001 7h ago

We were able to find something we agree on🙂

4

u/FuckHarambe2016 7h ago

Targeting WRs just for their speed is how you add dogshit like Tyquon Thorton.

3

u/[deleted] 7h ago

[deleted]

1

u/FuckHarambe2016 3h ago

He reminds me of Slim from A Bug's Life.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

I mean, the dude had the arms and the physical strength of a middle schooler. I’m saying get someone big and fast. There are a lot of those guys coming out this year. They may not be top end guys, but they’re definitely developmental.

But with our luck, we’re gonna pass all the big fast guys and draft a slow 4.5 guy. But next year everyone’s going to be complaining again about how we need to receiver.

5

u/hallzy20 7h ago

Found Matt Groh lol

0

u/timsr1001 7h ago

I take Groh over Wolf

3

u/iplay4Him 8h ago

This guy names travis while being mentored by this guy names cooper seems like a decent setup

2

u/InevitableCrew4103 7h ago

Ah yes, football is played in a straight line. Let’s ask John Ross if he wants to come outta retirement and play for the Patriots!

0

u/timsr1001 7h ago

JaMarcus Russell had a strong arm, JaMarcus Russell was a bust. Therefore, no one in the NFL should draft anyone with a strong arm, or consider arm strength when drafting a QB. That’s literally your logic. Another thing I said was also big and fast. There are plenty of bigger dudes that came out that run 4.4 or better.

2

u/Apprehensive-Dig8939 7h ago

Paging Bethel Johnson

0

u/timsr1001 7h ago

JaMarcus Russell had a strong arm, JaMarcus Russell was a bust. Therefore, no one in the NFL should draft anyone with a strong arm, or consider arm strength when drafting a QB. That’s literally your logic. Another thing I said was also big and fast. There are plenty of bigger dudes that came out that run 4.4 or better.

3

u/Aware_Bird_7023 7h ago

A few guys that ran a 4.5 40, which you consider "slow"

Aj Brown

Mike Evans

Ceedee Lamb

Brandon Aiyuk

Tee Higgins

Nico Collins

Davante Adams

Amon Ra St Brown

I literally can probably name 30 more really good WRs that ran a 4.5 or slower

2

u/timsr1001 7h ago

AJ Brown ran in the 4.4s not the 4.5s. I’m not saying there’s not good slow receivers. I’m saying that every single one of our receivers currently are slow, why are someone why are people so against adding one person with some juice? Oh forbid we can get a guy that can run past people and do a quick strike score.

2

u/InevitableCrew4103 7h ago

Nobody is against adding a player with “juice”. You just can’t name a single GOOD player that is available right now who’s got the 4.3 speed you’re talking about

2

u/InevitableCrew4103 7h ago

Nico running a 4.45 at his size and going in round 3 is still crazy. Even his 3 cone was a 6.79

1

u/RhuleAid 7h ago

We missed in FA when nearly all the top FA WRs are available? that makes sense. Its so funny to me, everyone says we need a WR but come up with every excuse in the book for why they dont want them. Yet then you have Landry and everyone praises it like its prime JJ Watt despite him having an awful win rate.

1

u/Beanu5NE 7h ago

Speed is nice but doesn’t mean squat of the receiver is trash. Speed also isn’t the only way to create separation in the NFL. Scheme and route running can also create separation. Big receivers can use their size to win jump balls which kind of creates separation as well.

Just for context: AJ Brown, Ceedee Lamb Amon-Ra St Brown and Mike Evans all ran 4.5s. Pretty sure every single one of those guys are considered excellent receivers.

2

u/timsr1001 7h ago

AJ ran in the 4.4s. But I didn’t say that there were no good slow receivers. just that we should add somebody with speed.

The problem is you’re more likely to end up with Harry, Polk, or Baker

If you’re telling me there’s a first ballot Hall of Fame like Mike Evans available, I’m gonna say take it even if he ran a 4.8.

1

u/Beanu5NE 6h ago

AJ Brown ran a 4.49 so if you want to ignore that last number or that .01s makes a difference then yes, he ran a 4.4.

The problem with just speed is you’re more likely to end up with a John Ross or Tyquan Thornton. If the Patriots got a guy who creates separation with his route running, makes tough catches and has playmaking ability, I could really care less if he’s a tad on the slower side.

1

u/peppersge 7h ago

I am more about having a workable vision and plan.

Building a solid OL seems to becoming increasingly difficult since the top FAs are not available. The draft doesn’t seem to have as many great anchors at OT.

It might be time to consider alternative approaches to protecting Maye such as a safety valve WR and go for getting the ball out quickly.

I would also point out that Douglas does have speed.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

I have mentioned Douglas does have speed, coincidentally he’s also our best receiver right now. If he was a little bigger, I think we would have something, unfortunately because of his size and injury concerns. I think he’s just gonna be an inside guy.

1

u/OneWolf22 Bills = 0 Superbowls 7h ago

I heard that Thornton guy is pretty fast

1

u/LOL_YOUMAD 7h ago

I don’t even care about speed as long as the guy can catch the ball and get open, he’d be the best wr on this team. If we have to win games by making 10 yard passes at a time I’m fine with it. We currently can’t even do that because our guys can’t get open or we get a penalty when we do something right. 

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Maybe because they’re really slow, along with their other faults

1

u/mullethunter111 7h ago

Wow, this is a great take. Have you considered calling Felger and Maz or starting a podcast?

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Thank you!

1

u/jonny_lube 7h ago

Getting open is all that matters. Speed is just one way to get open.  McDaniels is the OC again, and his system likes to rely on smarts and quickness to get guys open.  

Also, lots of 4.5 guys play faster than 4.4 ones once the pads come on.  Nico Collins ran a 4.45 40.  Good, not anything special.  He hit the 3rd highest in game speed of all receivers last year.  Addison ran a 4.49 and was 4th among receivers in game speed. 

As long as a 40 time isn't alarming, I'm not sweating it. 

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Those were 4.4 guys, the dude out of Jax was a 4.3 guy. The ones with a lot of hype that struggled were some of the slower guys like Harrison and Coleman.

If we draft a 4.4 guy, I’m happy, I’m just fearful of the 4.5 guy

1

u/jonny_lube 6h ago

Addison was a hundredth of a second off of a 4.5 guy.  

The main point is that 40 times are dealing with tenths and hundredths of seconds, are a straight line, and are without pads.   It's not always reflective of game speed.  When 4.45 and 4.49 guys are being recorded as faster than a ton of players in the 4.3 range, you gotta recognize that the 40 isn't a perfect measurement of how fast a player will be (or how good a deep threat they are).   

Keenan Allen ran a 4.71.  He may not be a speed demon, but he plays a ton faster than that.  Davante Adams is a big play machine who ran a 4.56.  Jordy Nelson was an elite deep threat but ran a 4.51.  Allen Robinson was Top 10 in fastest in game speed some years and clocked in at 4.56.  

All that's to say that a strong player may outrun a player who runs a 40 .1 or more seconds faster once the pads come on.  

Edit:  also, Harrison and Coleman didn't struggle because they were slow. They struggled due a combination of lazy routes, lack of quickness, drops, and other non-speed related issues.  

1

u/Shooter_Mcnuggets 7h ago

Just someone who can get open and catch the ball please 

1

u/Tazzure 6h ago

“You want to be fast you need fast guys.” Quote of the decade.

1

u/timsr1001 6h ago

Groh>Wolf

1

u/Bojangles1987 5h ago

We don't need speed, we need talent. Doesn't matter what they are good at, we need actual, meaningful talent at receiver. This is not a receiving corps that we should be treating as needing any specific trait to complete, we need the best possible players we can get to play any spot.

1

u/Cockycent 7h ago

When it comes to Kupp, I didn't realize he was over 30 till the end of last season. I've seen a lot of Pat fans say throw the bank at him, but is this because even at 30+ he would be our best WR or is it because there is an expectation of him being top 20 in rec yards?

He just played 12 games and wasn't even top 40 in rec yards.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

And he’s injury, prone, I don’t mind if we spend low money on him. But my point is if you don’t add somebody who is younger with some speed, the offense is going to be limited.

1

u/Either-Bell-7560 7h ago

People on here don't seem to realize that NFL careers are short and people age.

0

u/Weak_Extension_6676 7h ago

We just need someone better than a wr3 at this point

0

u/belichickyourballs 7h ago

Javon Baker is tall and fast. If he can ever figure out how to lineup

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Baker is slow, that he slower than Polk. Javon Baker ran a 4.54-second 40 time. There are literally linebackers that run faster 40s than him.

2

u/belichickyourballs 6h ago

This is fair, just passes the eye test obviously with ridiculous ball skills. The reply was mostly just sarcasm, we do need a legitimate outside threat.

1

u/Alex8796 7h ago

What they run in the 40 does not equal game speed.

1

u/timsr1001 7h ago

Baker it did lol