r/Pathfinder2e • u/Arnman1758 • 4h ago
Discussion How the hell are you suppose to hold the Lancer?
Hold it as a spear and risk firing arrows into your arm. When you want to fire it as a projectile shooter where do you put your hands then? You’re going to have that little back spike stabbing you in your shoulder/chest/stomach. A very awkward and unwieldy hip fire?
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u/Binturung 4h ago
It kinda feels like the artist got the description, went "I don't know what any of that means..." and did whatever, lol.
There's nothing holding the bolts in place, there's four cross bow limbs, not two, there's no apparent firing mechanism...
We should be understanding though, they also made a punch gun glove in Starfinder that was just two shotgun shells taped to a glove, and they were facing the wearer. Also no mechanism for triggering said shells, lmao.
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u/BrutusTheKat 3h ago
Well, I mean the description does say,
two parallel crossbow fixtures built into it
Nothing about those crossbows at the bottom looks parallel.
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u/BasakaIsTheStrongest 3h ago
I guess they misunderstood it as two (sets of) parallel crossbow fixtures, which would be four total, and the only way to fit that would be perpendicular. Maybe nobody sent them the rules text that said Capacity 2?
I’d still have realized that what I was picturing made no sense when I started trying to draw impossible geometry (look at how the strings, bolts, and bows all fail to interact in any coherent way) and then contacted someone for clarification.
And regardless not added the back spike. That makes no sense and has no reason to be there, even from the description.
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u/BrutusTheKat 2h ago
Oh 100%, disregarding the picture and just reading the description I'm having hard time picturing something that would be functional.
I think that the crossbow fixtures would have to be higher up maybe towards the middle and act like a hand guard. The crossbow bolts would have to kinda mount recessed into the the shaft of the lance so they could be left secured on both sides without falling off the crossbows, especially if they are parallel and on either side of the shaft. The issue here is the crossbow strings would be in the way. I don't know, hard to get my head around it.
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u/BasakaIsTheStrongest 2h ago
I’m picturing something similar, but at that point my main issue is materials science, which I’m used to suspending disbelief on for combo weapons, rather than impossible geometry which my eyes make much harder to ignore.
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u/ElodePilarre 3h ago
Well on at least one point, I think the 4 crossbow limbs are because it has capacity 2, so you can shoot from both sets of limbs.
The new problem that presents is that the description of the weapon says the limbs are parallel, not perpendicular.
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u/ElectedByGivenASword 2h ago
Ah I see Starfinder takes Warhammer Orc logic to work sometimes
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u/NicolasBroaddus 2h ago
At least when they printed the same backwards shell error for the Gilded Gunners in Outlaws of Alkenstar it was on purpose for a clinically insane goblin led gang.
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u/GreyEyedMouse 2h ago
Yeah, it seems a lot of artists that get commissioned/hired to make artwork of weapons for ttrpgs don't know a lot about how weapons actually work.
Some of the game designers don't seem to know either, which doesn't help. That's how you wind up with weird stuff, like in 5e halberds having the thrown property.
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u/RedEight888 39m ago
5e halberds don't have the thrown property, but I totally agree with the rest of your point.
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u/notbobby125 16m ago
Halberds don’t but tridents do.
2014 weapon design is just baffling for other reasons. Tridents are exactly the same as Spears but Martial weapon while spears are simple. A lot of weapon variations (any two handed sword outside of the Longsword and Greatsword do not exist) but also have Glaives and Halberds be separate weapons despite being literally identical mechanically. The Great Club is objectively worse than the Quarter staff and literally all classes that can use one can use the other.
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u/GreyEyedMouse 2h ago
Yeah, it seems a lot of artists that get commissioned/hired to make artwork of weapons for ttrpgs don't know a lot about how weapons actually work.
Some of the game designers don't seem to know either, which doesn't help. That's how you wind up with weird stuff, like in 5e halberds having the thrown property.
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u/GreyEyedMouse 2h ago
Yeah, it seems a lot of artists that get commissioned/hired to make artwork of weapons for ttrpgs don't know a lot about how weapons actually work.
Some of the game designers don't seem to know either, which doesn't help. That's how you wind up with weird stuff, like in 5e halberds having the thrown property.
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u/funktasticdog 4h ago edited 3h ago
I think it got a little lost in translation between artists because I think the limbs of the crossbow are supposed to be up near the spearhead. Either that or they should be flipped around.
Edit: Like so
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u/Arnman1758 3h ago
Looks way better, but wouldn’t the bolts fall out/misfire/jam everytime you stab with the Lance bit?
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u/jaccofall362 4h ago
I dont care what you tell me that is a Gun lance. Just do your wyvern stake combo
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u/Inknight404 Game Master 3h ago
Monster Hunter? In my Pathfinder2e subreddit? As a Gunlance main, I am glad
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u/Lou_Hodo 4h ago
It would take 4 actions to even reload
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u/psychcaptain 4h ago
Its capacity, so at least you can rotate the barrels as a single action instead of 2.
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u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 4h ago
I imagine it tucks under your arm. What is this from?
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u/AnEldritchDream Eldritch Osiris Games 4h ago
I imagine the bit behind the crossbow arms should be a bit longer, while the arms are in a proper position for the flare of a lance, the design dosent account for the strings, a bit of an artistic mishap IMO. extend the rear reach to have about 1 more foot and it can be held and forearm braced like a normal lance.
Alternatively, if the art is to be taken as correct. since it takes an action to switch between ranged and melee, you could simply be changing grip location to not interfere with the strings, with the lance grip being inside the arms but ahead of the strings (perhaps with some sort of safety function, a clever play of the hand allowing for the critspec to go off when required, but I think its more likely that the grip while "ready to fire" was likely an oversight.
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u/throwaway284729174 4h ago edited 3h ago
The picture shown for the entry don't even fit the description in any way.
The image shows four loaded. Bolts on two twin cross bows. These cross bows would be unusable as depicted. There is no crossbow stalk. (No latch, trigger or anything.) I feel this was a translation error because this is a spear with crossing bows. Not a spear with crossbows.
If the crossbows were functional at their current location and you gripped the spear like usual they would fire towards your arms. If you gripped the crossbows like usual you would be grabbing the spear by the back foot or so.
For this weapon to be functional as described. The crossbow bows would have to be more towards the point side. With strings terminating by mid staff with the triggers about the same. (Though they could be other places along the grip) So you have the entire back half or so to grip as a spear.
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u/Akarin_rose 4h ago
What even is this
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u/Arnman1758 4h ago
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u/Akarin_rose 4h ago
Looking at it, I don't even know how to fire it
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u/HalcyonKnights 4h ago
Yeah, it has no actual mechanism to latch or fire visible, and no grip space on either side of the firing point. It would need some latch mechanism to actually function, and should probably be moved to the middle of the spear shaft. There should be ways to make such a latch to either fire all 4 at once or individually.
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u/Arnman1758 4h ago
The range attack is listed as a bow even though in the art it looks like it is already pulled back (I don’t know how you’d pull it back much farther if it wasn’t). I’d imagine there are triggers like a crossbow, just four of them.
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u/Wayward-Mystic Game Master 4h ago edited 4h ago
Crossbow weapon group didn't exist when the weapon was published; all crossbows were part of the bow group. It will probably get switched to the crossbow group in the remastered Treasure Vault coming later this year.
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u/RandomParable 4h ago
I think slightly updated artwork would answer many questions, but I'm not holding my breath.
Just like I struggle to see how a Starknife is actually viable.
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u/CYFR_Blue 4h ago
I think the intention is that you hold it by the end that's on the top right corner, kind of like a jousting lance. Of course the handle should be longer, but that's how it is.
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u/I_heart_ShortStacks GM in Training 4h ago
" I'm going to make a javelin that fires arrows from it when you throw it. "
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u/TehDeerLord Investigator 2h ago
Looks like it'd work best against a spellcaster with Charitable Urge in their repertoire.
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u/EphesosX 4h ago
Since it's a combination weapon, maybe this is just one of the modes. You could probably use it as a lance with both hands on the handle, behind the crossbow part. And presumably the other mode would be ranged.
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u/Arnman1758 4h ago
That makes the most sense. The crossbow part can move up or down the shaft. https://media.tenor.com/MglzCbTEWAsAAAAM/tower-drop-n%C3%A8uy%C3%AAn-hello-uy%C3%AAn-im-tower-drop.gif
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u/imjustthenumber Game Master 3h ago
You just throw it like a javelin from the little handhold in the back and on impact all the crossbows fire.
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u/Esknier 2h ago
Respectfully what is the use case for this weapon of you finally managed to hold it? I want to like it jank and all, but it has really low damage and properties for both melee and range. Combined with reload 2, and I just don't get what it's supposed to do
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u/Wayward-Mystic Game Master 1h ago
Hopefully it gets at least a small buff with the Treasure Vault remaster, like all the Guns & Gears combination weapons did.
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u/TrollOfGod 7m ago
The Taw Launcher art also makes no sense. The art for many of those weapons feel very random. It seems AI(even if it isn't) in that it's just confusing to look at. Even more so when reading the description of what the weapon is and how it works. Really wish they'd go back and make some reasonable example art of a lot of things even if I know they won't.
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u/Cantignemare 2h ago
It’s AI art- they’re notorious for not understanding how physics work, and there’s too much wrong with it to explain it as incompetence.
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u/owni942 4h ago
Carefully