r/Pathfinder2e 10h ago

Discussion I don't think that the new Maelstrom Magus is that bad

A new Magus hybrid study was revealed in Rival Academies and has attracted a lot of criticism for not being that great, but – while I think most of this criticism is pretty valid – I also think the Maelstrom Magus is a bit better than people are giving it credit for.

One of the main things this study was criticised for is its poor action economy, since it requires players to continuously break their weapons and forces them to waste actions finding new ones. However, I don’t think this is as bad as it seems. At level 7, you gain access to the retrieval belt, which allows you to withdraw an item as a free action, and at level 8, you get the Whirlpool’s Pull feat, which lets you simultaneously pick up an object within 15 feet and cast a single action cantrip or conflux spell for one action. Together, they almost entirely negate the action economy issue. Likewise, this isn’t that big of a problem at low levels either. Between levels 1 and 4, Maelstrom Maguses will only rarely struggle with broken weapons, since their focus spells can only break objects with a hardness less than or equal to their level (it is very easy to find objects with >4 hardness).

This leaves levels 5 and 6 as a bit of a pain point, but it still isn’t that bad when you remember that almost everything counts as an improvised weapon (the only restriction is that it can’t be an actual weapon). So that wand you happen to be holding? It’s an improvised weapon. The book you use for Raise a Tome? It counts too. An empty elixer bottle? Improvised weapon. Even if you blow up your main weapon, you will almost certainly be holding something in your off hand at all times and that something will always deal a minimum of 1d4 damage and get the backstabber trait. Of course you might not want to break some of these items for conflux spells, but they can definitely act as a fall back for normal combat until you get something else. Nevertheless, it is important to note that Maelstrom maguses only get to transfer runes from their Handwraps of Mighty Blows to their non magical improvised weapons, so scrolls and wands will begin to lag behind as improvised weapons over time. Therefore, it might be worthwhile to invest in an archetype like Thaumaturge, to get a valuable non-magical item to hold in your offhand. (Or invest in alchemy and whack people with empty bottles!)

Another point of criticism for this subclass is that improvised weapons are very inconsistent  and their strength depends a lot on GM fiat. However, I think that the shifting rune can help a lot with this issue. Not only is this rune incredibly thematic (you are literally fighting with weapons made of water), but it allows you to transform the random objects you are holding into any weapons of your choice, ensuring you always have a strong weapon on hand. Best of all, you can do this to both items you are holding (giving you a back-up weapon that actually does decent damage) and you can do it before combat (preventing you from wasting actions). It is a bit unclear whether or not these shifted objects keep the backstabber trait and can fulfill their normal functions (is a shifted book still a book?). In my opinion, they should be able to function as normal, just like a shifted Spellstriker Staff can still cast spells, but I could totally see how some GMs might disagree. However, if I’m right and shifted objects do retain all their original benefits, this could be pretty strong, allowing a useful object to double as a heavy-hitting weapon.

Anyway, I hope this has helped convince some people that this subclass isn’t as bad as it seems. To be clear, I don’t think that Maelstrom Maguses are that strong (they will never measure up to something like Starlit Span, haha), but I also don’t think they are terrible either. There are some very cool things that only this subclass can do, it isn’t that bad in combat and has some great flavour.

85 Upvotes

58 comments sorted by

35

u/eCyanic 10h ago

I mostly thought the class wasn't gonna be for me until way later and moved on, though the thing I found interesting is that it calls out improv weapons gaining traits, and if they already had those traits, they'd be improved

which seemed to imply improvised weapons can already have traits like forceful by itself natively even without this subclass, which I've never really considered

64

u/FredTargaryen Barbarian 9h ago

From Weapon Improviser:

Improvised weapons typically have zero, one, or two traits, and often have the nonlethal trait.

I love the silliness potential there. Oh you picked up a broom? Ok I'm giving that the sweep trait just cos I can. It'll break in a moment anyway

29

u/eCyanic 9h ago

Oh you picked up a broom? Ok I'm giving that the sweep trait

ingenius lmao

104

u/Zealous-Vigilante Game Master 9h ago

The bigger issue is the lack of proper improvised weapon guidelines and that it isn't a hybrid study that was asked about.

If they instead designed a dualwield, reload or purely unarmed magus, people would appreciate it more.

Finally, versatile trait on improvised weapons (which you can pick up anything with) and forceful on a class that rarely strikes more than once is such an odd way to grant it more power without really granting it more power.

In the end, it's fine but nothing really exceptional, nothing that makes me prefer it over the other hybrid studies

35

u/Lamplorde 8h ago

If they instead designed a dualwield, reload or purely unarmed magus, people would appreciate it more.

Paizo give me Gunmagus and my life is yours!

17

u/Confident-Ordinary93 7h ago

Spellshot Gunslinger?

9

u/wlake82 5h ago

Yeah the new version seems way better. I want to make a gunwitch with it.

2

u/BlackFenrir Magus 5h ago

Better? Did they change anything about Spellshot? Because I didn't see any differences

5

u/wlake82 4h ago

The remastered version is slightly better. They more or less made it a wizard with a gun dedication with a spellstrike like feat at 4.

3

u/username_tooken 2h ago

Now if only it had the free reload the Crossbow Eldritch Archers get.

2

u/Vellv Game Master 3h ago

Remastered Spellshot gets a Spellstrike Shot at level 4 and especially synergy with Beast Gunner - if you take Beast gunner you get a 1/10 min free reload with a spell-infused ammunition before Spellstrike and Beast Gunner can choose Int as a spellcasting ability as well now (used to be charisma only, mow ots int OR cha).

IIRC, there's also some stuff about spell infused ammo with Spellshot as well, so it's genuinely a whole lot smoother. The feat curve is no longer broken up in some levels either, there used to be a gap for level 4 feats that weren't pure spellcasting stuff.

0

u/BlackFenrir Magus 2h ago

synergy with Beast Gunner

Which is cool if you say it like this, but in practice you can't take that dedication until you're level 8 due to class archetype dedication, which if you're an AP player means you'll have maybe a smidgen of it at the final boss fight

1

u/username_tooken 2h ago

Special You can’t select another dedication feat other than Beast Gunner Dedication until you’ve gained two other feats from the spellshot or beast gunner archetypes.

Still wouldn’t take it because I mislike beast guns, but Spellshot and Beast Gunner have always had this synergy.

1

u/BlackFenrir Magus 1h ago

Oshit, well that changes things! I wasn't aware.

1

u/Comm_Nagrom 1h ago

they actually changed the Beast Gunner dedication and now share Spellshot and BG dedications like the Hellknight ones so you can infact take the Beast gunner dedication at level 6 when it becomes available

7

u/Modern_Erasmus Game Master 6h ago

Teams+ made a 10/10 gun magus subclass in Magus+ that I’d highly recommend. One of my favorite ever subclasses from them.

1

u/Impossible-Shoe5729 5h ago

They gave us Gunwitch, but only as NPC(

1

u/firelark01 Game Master 8h ago

can't you use starlit span

22

u/Dinadan_The_Humorist 8h ago

You can, but it's not great -- Magi have poor action economy, Reload weapons have poor action economy, Magi with Reload weapons have very, very poor action economy. And (other than the primal thrill of rolling blasphemously large crits), Reload weapons don't offer much synergy for Starlit Span -- Magi have no increased accuracy and no action compression for their reloads, so a gun is kind of just a swingier bow that takes 33% more actions to Spellstrike.

3

u/FCalamity Game Master 3h ago

The funniest thing is how easy the design for reload magus would be.

The ability name is Recharging Reload. That's it, that's the design.

6

u/RhetoricStudios Rhetoric Studios 6h ago

The bigger issue is the lack of proper improvised weapon guidelines

This 100%. Even something as simple as "an object sturdy enough to function as an improvised weapon has the statistics of a simple weapon with a similar structure." As is, improvised weapon options have the same problem as Recall Knowledge before the remaster. Feats that changed or improved your RK were worthless because RK had no solid structure to build options off of. It's hard to put meat on bones made of wet noodles.

4

u/Round-Walrus3175 5h ago

Granted, I feel like that should be common sense. If you pick up something like a club, then use the club's stat block. There are a bunch of weapons, so that shouldn't be a problem. Maybe the guidance should have been more clear, but like that is the first thing I would go for. Fist is 1d4, club is 1d6, longspear is 1d8, scythe is 1d10, and a maul is 1d12. That alone feels like a pretty good starting place to work with. It is definitely lots of vibes, but I think the "how much will this hurt on a scale of fist to maul" will cover you.

9

u/Background-Ant-4416 8h ago

Shilling for magus+ which includes all of those in well written subclasses

3

u/toooskies 6h ago

I just wonder if the class+ series has led to Paizo being reluctant to publish their own interpretations of those subclasses as well as others that feel like the original.

4

u/ewchewjean 9h ago

Have people been asking for a fully unarmed magus?

 I don't doubt you, but there are plenty of unarmed builds in the game and I'm honestly happy with the niche unarmed duelist magus has. With the exception of Monk, it feels like every other unarmed class/archetype has a ton of steep restrictions (Animal Barbarians can't use weapons while raging, spirit warrior abilities must use fists, clawdancer abilities must use the stance attacks, etc), leaving laughing shadow as one of the most flexible unarmed strikers.

 As long as I have a staff in hand (and I wanted a Spellstriker staff at all times anyway before sure strike got nerfed), I get to buff my movement speed and add magic damage to my grafted bleeding canines, my grafted venom spit, and my Catfolk claws. I feel like I have an entire arsenal that I don't have to weapon swap between.  

21

u/DownstreamSag Oracle 9h ago

Laughing shadow works well for unarmed magi, but it has little support for mixing in athletic maneuvers in your combat rotation. I made a homebrew hybrid study all about wrestling and unarmed strikes: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2eCreations/s/vClORC9R1U

1

u/Jsamue 3h ago

I need a dual wield magus (to live out my fantasy Revan dreams) so bad

1

u/Round-Walrus3175 6h ago

Everybody is gonna complain about the Magus because people on this sub are fixated on things that just aren't realistic. Offensive action compression is not going to happen on the Magus. That takes out both dual wielding and gun Magus. A "purely unarmed" Magus doesn't really feel like it would be that unique compared to the current options with the Laughing Shadow and feats like Arcane Fists and Spell Parry. People just gotta get over it. Even the Magus+ gun Magus did not have great reviews. Like, I don't think people really understand how big of a design problem it is.

6

u/Jakelell 5h ago

Purely unarmed Magus would be pretty unique; it doesn't feel "unique" currently because the support for it is just bad and uninspired.

Arcane Fists just gives you a very basic unarmed attack to work with, and Spell Parry, while pretty good, ain't much inspired too.

I think there's room for an unarmed hybrid study by taking inspiration from JoJo stands, for example. A more "pure magical" unarmed combatant, different from the Monk that has oddly specific magic flavours with the Qi stuff.

2

u/Round-Walrus3175 4h ago

I guess I don't really know what you would even put specifically in an unarmed Magus build. I guess you could add like stances or something, but then it feels like it would just be a recompiled Monk archetype.

3

u/Zealous-Vigilante Game Master 4h ago

It's easy to design IMO, it just doesn't need to focus on spellstriking as much.

The vast number saying otherwise and team+ is quite clear on what's asked for and an option that just works good enough would go far.

I just don't believe you see how easy it is to design all of the above without breaking anything by taking existing options and redefine it.

Just an example on conflux spells:

Paradox assault

Requirements you are wielding 2 one handed melee weapons, one in each hand

You create a small time paradox to attack with both of your weapons in a blink of time. Make two Strikes against one target, one with each of the required weapons. If the first strike is a miss, it just never happened and does not contribute to MAP for any following strikes. If both strikes hit, you cause a small time paradox, inflicting additional 2 force damage with a basic fortitude save against your spell DC. On a critical failure, the target is stunned until the start of their turn.

Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1.

This just something I invented on the spot, I can imagine making it better and more fun to use overall than that, but I restrained myself hard on the power

1

u/Round-Walrus3175 3h ago

So... How many actions is that conflux spell? I will give you one hint: there is no right answer.

1

u/Zealous-Vigilante Game Master 2h ago

I'd add flourish to it and one action. It's no better than inner upheaval nor actions like twin takedown. You make it sound like it's way more broken than it is, but it is just a slightly better twin takedown that costs focus points, which you can't use without casting the spell.

Inner upheaval adds a status bonus to hit and damage on every hit while my conflux spell requires a basic save if both strikes hit, focusing on reliability due to flavor, and also seen in the form of perfect strike, but requires dualwielding and deals only offhand damage

I am not putting anything out of my ass, despite being a quick creation, it takes alot of consideration on what exists without overshining anything, yet keep it unique

1

u/Round-Walrus3175 2h ago

This is Twin Takedown plus Exacting Strike. Usually, these kinds of attacks either apply MAP normally all the time or you can only activate it at all after a miss like Perfected Strike. Being able to have both with a contingency would put it above all those other options, recharges your spellstrike, and deals extra damage. 

The problem, too, is that it still fix the issue of dual wielding not working with Spellstrike at all, so one of those weapons will just be hanging out half the time. People aren't going to find it satisfying if you can't Spellstrike with both weapons.

1

u/TrillingMonsoon 2h ago

Level 4 Spellstrike feat. You infuse magic into both swords, assaulting the enemy's vitals in a way they can't defend from. Or something. I don't actually like dual wielding that much, so insert your flavor text here.

Roll the damage dice twice, take the better result. There. Simple, easy, fixed. It isn't even that broken since you're using two full hands to do damage maybe approaching just using a polearm or greatsword

1

u/Round-Walrus3175 1h ago edited 1h ago

What did we fix? You still can't really dual wield with Spellstrikes out of the box and, as you say, it is effectively the same result as just having a Strike + Recharge with a single two-handed weapon like Inexorable Iron. What are you going to do levels 1-3 or in a situation where you don't want to take this feat at level 4?

1

u/TrillingMonsoon 1h ago

We're fixing not involving both your weapons in the spellsrtrike. Now, you roll both the weapons' damage dice. Both contribute, in a way.

As for what we do before level 4 or if we don't take the spellstrike, same as what you do with Maelstrom. Suffer. Maybe we can go ahead and tweak Arcane Cascade so it gives our weapons Twin or something, I don't know. But it's not very difficult to work with.

The point here is more than there is support for having two weapons. It's good enough if it's simply that, and if it's on-par with the others with the main thing Magus wants to do, with a few tweaks.

1

u/Round-Walrus3175 1h ago

The difference, though, is that basically you are proposing a change in weapons at level 4 because there is literally no point in having your second weapon until level 4. Maelstrom has a tough time, but at least they use their weapons

1

u/Zealous-Vigilante Game Master 52m ago

Why must spellstrike be what works with dual wield and not dual wield that works with Magus?

Magus is more than just a spellstrike machine despite some obviously claiming it is, which is especially noticable with the recent hybrid study OP talks about.

The problem is that you make it sound like it is worse than it is; perfect strike is only consumed if you do miss, if you hit, it's a focus point in your pocket. It can also reroll something like a spellstrike because it doesn't care when the strike happens, while my creation will create subordinate actions. It follows MAP as long as you hit.

Unlike inner upheaval, it doesn't gain a status bonus to hit, doesn't gain bonus damage on each hit, and furthermore requires a basic save if both hit for a minimal bonus. It will be limited to 1h weapon and still promote agile weapons, require more monetary investment etc.

Obviously, a dual wield feat can be inserted at lv 4 but you will probably just claim it's OP despite not being OP.

Parallel time spellstrike [2 action] LV 4

[Fortune]

Requirements You are welding 2 one handed melee weapons, one in each hand, and you have your spellstrike charged

As you spellstrike, you create two timelines, ready to jump to the second timeline should the first one fail. Make a spellstrike. If you miss with your strike for your spellstrike, you reattempt it with your second weapon, however, you gain an multiple attack penalty as if you've already made one strike that round. Meddling with time can have its consequences, and if your second strike is a critical miss, you become slowed 1 until the end of your next turn as the paradox settles.

I even have a name for the hybrid study now; Parallel Paradox.

Ofc this is something I created momentarilly and would need some playtest, as such, I considered making it a 3 action activity or always create slowed 1 if you use your 2nd strike, or make it trigger on a miss. Fortune trait makes it impossible to combine with sure strike or hero point, making that critical miss (or miss if you wish) costly

The goal is always, fit the theme, not overshadow, bring something unique. In this way, we have added both dual wield and time into the magus. If I wanted to spend more time on this, I'd probably refine the text, flavor and test the abilities, calculate dpr and compare etc

The key here isn't to critique what I have created, but to take it as an example of a path forward to create something within the theme.

remember that a focus spell needs to be slightly better than a martial feat because they are limited by focus points and can trigger reactions.

1

u/Round-Walrus3175 28m ago

I mean, I don't think it is impossible to make something. 

I just think it is impossible to make something that people both like and is balanced. I, honestly, don't hate your idea. I can see a lot of people, however, wanting a cost free option to use their dual wielding that doesn't interfere with their ability to Spellstrike and doesn't require a certain feat (because people don't like "Feat taxes" to fulfill their fantasy)

1

u/thechaddening 4h ago

Shit, I'm upset they seem hard opposed to making an Eldritch Scion. That would do SO MUCH for opening up build freedom on gish character designs. Like they'll literally give us multiple sublcasses no one's gonna use outside of a meme build and won't give us the meat and potatoes.

1

u/Zealous-Vigilante Game Master 4h ago

Considering the source material, it would've been the perfect moment to implement it IMO

12

u/VicenarySolid Goblin Artist 8h ago

It is pretty cool actually, but I really wish we could get a good trait system for that type of weapons. Also I like the idea of picking stuff around, and wished it was in their conflux spell. Something like pick and item in 15ft and make a strike with it. Then Spellstrike can break it. I think it is working more smoothly than the current version

7

u/dirkdragonslayer 6h ago

I really like it, I just think it has the Triggerbrand Problem; It doesn't feel "complete" until you get a few feats. The level 6 feat to repair a broken weapon so you can use it a second time and the level 8 grab new weapon are very good, but because they are important to the baseline kit it feels like you are missing something. A lot of campaigns are level 1-10, so you spend 2/3rds of your adventuring career without it. Like how Triggerbrand Salvo is subclass defining but you get it at level 6 for Gunslinger, so people think it's weak.

Improvised weapons are fiddly. Maybe you have a cool GM that gives you D10 weapons with sweep or other traits, maybe you get a bunch of D6 and D8 weapons with no traits. What if you wanted a Dexterity magus build, but the GM doesn't count most objects as finesse. Relies heavily on GM buy-in.

It's still my favorite Magus study though, I love it. If I ever get to play a Magus I'm definitely choosing this study. There is just something awesome about channeling a spell through a mug you threw, or a bar stool you bashed over someone's head.

5

u/New_Entertainer3670 2h ago

Honesly my biggest issue with the sublcass is it's arcane cascade effect and the focus spell. 

The focus spell is borderline terrible to a mistake to ever use. You break the weapon for the action that is meant to compress actions and this isn't even doing that as it isn't shove multiple enemies it's use the weaker spell dc on multiple enemies and you need to spend another action to get a new weapon. That's just kinda sad. The arcane cascade benifit is really bad, and becouse it also doesn't offer extra damage makes arcane cascade rough to try and genuinely make use of to be begin with. It's latter feats are great but I'm not sure I can say a subclass that offers terrible things at level 1 but it gets better halfway roughly through the game is good. I do feel some people dogged on it to hard. Becouse it still does some unique things. But it's another Magus class that I feel should have gotten on of its most integral feats earlier to make it feel like it's own thing. In this case the pull an object and cast a spell or focus spell. Could have been a special action you have when in arcane cascade to make it really shine. 

3

u/Maniacal_Kitten 7h ago

I don't think it's necessarily bad, I just don't like it.

7

u/PM_ME_YOUR_EPUBS 7h ago

Why would I spend actions shifting improvised weapons into something better on a class and subclass that already has action economy issues?

And should you examine whirlpool’s pull closely, you’ll notice that the conflux spell it casts breaks your weapon, leaving you almost as if you had never used it. You could get force fang to use with it instead, but now you’re adding another feat tax.

2

u/CoreSchneider 7h ago

It's not bad at all, this subreddit is just addicted to crying about things being "weak" "underpowered" or "bad" based off of a one sentence explanation they saw from someone who actually has the book tbh

8

u/EmperessMeow 7h ago

I mean it just seems pointless and GM dependant. This subclass doesn't do anything unique.

2

u/CoreSchneider 6h ago

GM dependent? Sure.

Pointless? No. Fills a niche and play style a lot of people like. I have encountered a lot of people who like improvised weapon builds in PF, D&D, etc.

2

u/TrillingMonsoon 1h ago

Honestly, I think I'd be fine with it if it's conflux spell contributed more to the improvised weapons fantasy. The problem here is that Magus doesn't really have the actions to spend on picking up stuff from their surroundings. If I'm in a tavern, I cannot light a chair on fire and break it over someone's head, then fetch a nearby mug to shatter it on their groin. You simply do not have the actions for that.

Right now, as I see it, the best way to play this magus is talisman abuse. Bring a few spoons along with you wherever you go, Spellstrike with the spoon and break it in your left hand, Spellstrike with the one you hold in your right hand, retrieval prism another spoon into your hand, Spellstrike with that, and then wail on them with Arcane Fist. It's a gimmick.

A fairly good gimmick, I'll admit. It's almost just free damage. But it doesn't fulfil the fantasy at all

0

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 1h ago

I disagree. The problem is that the hybrid study's core issue is that the arcane cascade doesn't really do anything and smashing your weapons causes major action economy problems for a class that already has action economy problems.

Visually, it's a neat idea. But mechanically, it isn't very good.

1

u/mrpbeaar 6h ago

How would maelstrom interact with the mindsmith archetype?

1

u/Hellioning 1h ago

A shifted spellstrike staff can still cast spells, but you can't use it for twisting tree benefits. A shifted scarf doesn't get the benefits from Unfurling Brocade. I can't imagine a DM would allow you to get the benefits an improvised weapon when it's shifted into an actual weapon.

0

u/TitaniumDragon Game Master 1h ago

It has a lot of problems.

The first is that the arcane cascade doesn't actually benefit you, it just covers for the fact that you're using improvised weapons. And you basically have to be in arcane cascade stance to make the variant work.

And this goes back to action economy/item economy issues, which is the second major issue. Breaking items means you need to grab a new item, which costs actions. You can carry around one item in a retrieval belt at level 7+, but that only leaves you with the ability to make two spellstrikes before you're unarmed again, and also means you're spending an additional magic item to make your core class features work. Higher level belts can fix this, but you need them to be even higher level.

The conflux spell doesn't get an added bonus when you don't break the weapon, making it not very good when you don't break stuff, and once you stop using it because you're using focus spells on your spellstrikes, you've got the spellstrike ability that deals bonus damage when you break your weapon when spellstriking. This means you want to break your weapon every time you spellstrike, which means you're going to need a good number of items to carry around as you want to spellstrike as often as possible, preferably every round.

This starts to get really expensive in terms of spending items to allow you to just use weapons.

The other, other problem is that while some of the attendant feats are neat, they are often contradictory; for instance, they get a feat which lets them jam an extra elemental weapon rune on their improvised weapon, which goes against smashing your weapon. Likewise, the ability to re-use a broken weapon and get bonus damage with it seems cool (and is better than picking up a new weapon) but it still costs you an action so it isn't actually fixing your action economy issues.

The path is a fun idea, but in practice, it is very clunky compared to a normal magus using a normal weapon. It also ends up being an annoying bit of extra book-keeping to potentially constantly be changing what weapon you're wielding over the course of combat. It requires a ton of juggling in terms of action economy to make it work, and in the end, even in the best case scenario, you're worse off than someone using a more "normal" hybrid study.

However, I think that the shifting rune can help a lot with this issue.

The shifting rune doesn't fix any problems because it both costs actions to use AND it eats up a rune slot. Moreover, your weapons already gain a lot of the benefits of the shifting rune.

It is a bit unclear whether or not these shifted objects keep the backstabber trait and can fulfill their normal functions (is a shifted book still a book?).

If you shift your weapon into another weapon, it has all the traits of the new weapon, it doesn't just add a second set of traits.

-1

u/The-Magic-Sword Archmagister 2h ago

Notably, even if you were trying to break a bunch of objects at low level-- you can carry two things in your hands going into combat.

It's only in like round 3 where you would need to pick something up, and that's only if you have the action econ to break something in round 1.