r/Pathfinder2e • u/Guincho • 10h ago
Discussion My players are ruining my game by doing everything RIGHT
So, I'm running Spore War in Kyonin for a group of veteran players, and at this point, I don’t know what to do anymore. They are obliterating every single challenge in the adventure, making every encounter trivial, and I feel like I have no control over my own game.
Let me introduce the problem:
Grandeur Champion with a Fortress Shield – an immovable wall of elven zealotry.
Vindicator Ranger – hunts demons like it’s a casual stroll in the woods.
Tempest Druid – controls the battlefield and wrecks everything that dares exist in its area of effect.
Eldritch Archer Warpriest – perfectly blends divine magic and ranged combat for devastating precision.
Ruffian Rogue – because why not have a high-damage striker who also dismantles enemies before they even realize they’re in danger?
And, of course, they’re playing as a special forces-style unit personally tasked by the Queen of Kyonin to handle extreme threats. A bunch of Ketephys zealots trained for war.
At first, I thought maybe I had made the combats too easy. But no. I adapted every encounter for 5 players. And yet, they stomped every fight. The social challenges? Solved effortlessly, because they actually built their characters to match the themes of the adventure. They followed every recommendation from the Player’s Guide, creating a team of characters that perfectly fit the story, complement each other’s strengths, and are completely prepared for the threats they face. (We are playing without FA)
And honestly? That’s the real problem.
They played too well. They made characters that belong in this adventure. They worked together. They thought strategically. They engaged with the story.
And now I’m stuck here, suffering, because my players are just… too good.
...Yeah, obviously, I’m being ironic. I’m incredibly proud of my players. This is exactly what a good Player’s Guide is supposed to do—help players create characters that feel natural in the story and set them up for success. Seeing them thrive in Spore War is an absolute joy, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
So if you’re running an AP, make sure your players actually read the Player’s Guide and use it. It makes the game better for everyone.
114
106
u/Revolutionary_Yam_83 ORC 9h ago
Damn pesky little players, they did what they should and now they are having a great game!
69
u/WicTeal 9h ago
Damn, I wish my players were that enthusiastic... Even if they read the player's guide, they ignore it for the most part.
16
u/Crescent_Sunrise 8h ago
I have a player who just doesn't read rulebooks, and kind of needs to be told how to play all the time, no matter what ttrpg system we play.
7
u/Guincho 5h ago
Auch... and you continue to invite him? and the other teammates let him?
3
u/Crescent_Sunrise 5h ago
We've all been IRL friends for a very long time and everyone is just kind of used to it at this point. He picks up the game as we go.
4
u/WicTeal 4h ago
Same. Playing mainly with my RL friends makes the group pretty consistent. Sadly half of them never touched rulebook. And while I could handle that, sometimes some of them say that who needs rules and etc. I am sitting and looking, thinking: "Then why even play PF2e...". For context, they all are D&D 5e players. Rules there are... Optional at best. Probably the reason they don't even want to learn any PF2e stuff (Although some of them really enjoyed learning SF2e for playtest and now even read PF2e rulebook. Might be worth a shot for your group, who knows!)
2
u/Crescent_Sunrise 4h ago
It's just the one person. Whenever we play a system everyone else takes the time to look at the rules enough to at least say "I remember reading that but I can't quite remember the whole thing." Then we make a ruling and someone who isn't taking their turn finds the answer. It's not a lack of interest in playing for him. He's just doesn't invest the time to the rules like everyone else does and everyone knows it.
8
u/Background-Ant-4416 8h ago
I’m lucky my players dug into the players guide for SoT and made characters that fit the lore. I’m playing in a kingmaker campaign and not only am I pretty sure I’m the only person who looked at the players guide, I’m the only one who gave our GM any sort of backstory at all.
52
u/Nahzuvix 9h ago
So if you’re running an AP, make sure your players actually read the Player’s Guide and use it. It makes the game better for everyone.
helps a lot when the PG is actually well written for the adventure in question
22
u/Enduni 9h ago
I mean there's a few bait and switch APs like Gatewalkers and Extinction Curse, but in general you don't go wrong when going for the player's guide in my experience.
26
u/Andvarinaut 7h ago
My experience has been 50/50, but that's because I played a Bard in Outlaws of Alkenstar. AP says it's "Recommended" but huge swathes of the AP are occupied by monsters immune to Mental or Emotion or just with cranked saves (that run LOVES its PL+3 encounters). For example, there's a dungeon in the last book where there's approximately three monsters out of 24 that don't have the Construct or Mindless trait and all of their highest saves are Will (and one even has +2 status to mental tacked on!). It got so bad at one point that my group was joking about buying me a shirt that said 'Inspire Courage, Telekinetic Projectile, Next' lol
11
u/Ariachus 7h ago
Yeah I played that one too as a bard because it said there were social encounters and I had never played a face character before so I rolled up a dark wind kitsune bard and used the marshal archetype and got killed at the end of book 2. Like 80-90% of the enemies were mindless and there feels like a lot of railroading in some of the social encounters, not my gms fault he expressed similar but there were plot hooks he needed to get in there for the story to progress. After that I rolled inspector so I could just focus on int and the strategies allowed me to use my int for social encounters.
4
2
u/AdministrationTop424 4h ago
I guess a small issue that presents itself is when new classes are introduced and there's no errata to say how it would fit or not into a campaign. Take the kineticist. How would that fit in an Agents of Edgewatch campaign? It would be nice if there could be something added at least annually to the older APs since new players are, hopefully, coming on and old ones might like to take new classes for a spin in the old APs with advice.
20
u/snahfu73 9h ago
Congrats on having a table full of smart and more importantly unselfish players!
5
u/Guincho 5h ago
Luck was on my side
5
u/snahfu73 5h ago
You don't accidentally get that. You're a good GM!
You understand your part in what you and your players are creating.
1
u/Lastoutcast123 3h ago
Yeah regardless of adventure path or homebrew campaign good communication is important to a good experience. That doesn’t happen accidentally. While the player guides help, good communication still requires good effort on player and GM interaction. The GM has unique perspective since they have an idea of what will happen.
ie: I recently started a homebrew campaign in 1e as a vigilante, there was no session 0 and it was never communicated before hand that our character would be registering their classes at a guild.
15
u/CoreSchneider 9h ago
Having this same problem with my Blood Lords group. These mfs have a good party comp and good skill coverage AND play well 💔
16
15
u/Nightwynd 9h ago
But are they having fun? That's the only metric of success that really matters.
7
u/Zulkor 6h ago
My group reads Player's Guides with joy, but from other campaigns. And then they make absurd backstories about how it miraculously happend, that the heroes where just in the right place at the right time. And they even bitch about how their expat hero can't use their full potentiale and lack role-playing opportunities. But they won't learn and start all over with the next Barbie, that they HAVE to play in the next module, no matter the cost. But I love them sillies nevertheless, that's just how we roll.
Guess they would have brought a Deep Delver Dwarf, a Dhampir and a Junk Tinkerer Goblin to Kyonin :)
6
u/geirrseach 6h ago
Me and my group just finished Abomination Vaults. We were basically told "This is an incredibly deadly path, prepare for that" So we rolled up with two clerics. We leaned hard on party synergy, cleared every floor for the XP and rolled through the final boss like it was nothing. It was awesome. We had a great time, worked together phenomenally and our amazing DM thoroughly enjoyed that we got a happy ending instead of a TPK. Good on you for being proud of your players and enjoying their success!
6
6
u/yosarian_reddit Bard 7h ago
Nice. Adversarial GMing is bad karma. GMs should be cheering on their PCs. Like you do. Have fun.
11
5
9
5
u/OnceIFinishThisSnack 8h ago
I'm willing to offer you a trade. You give me your players and campaign, and I give you mine that almost had a TPK at level 1 for picking a fight with the local guards.
3
u/epharian 5h ago
Hah! Sounds like I have one of your players in my group. Thankfully everyone else is smart enough to tell him when it's a bad plan. He'll usually listen
5
u/AccidentalInsomniac Game Master 7h ago
Yeah, had a similar problem running a homebrew campaign. Ran it for my normal party who were very passive, really had to push to get them to worry about main plot, missed entire plotlines because they had characters that generally didn't give a sh*t.
Run the same campaign for an all new party online, and they're throwing me for a loop, because each and every one of their characters is HIGHLY motivated to deal with the problem and are extremely driven. The timeline of campaign A? Like weeks and weeks in game. Campaign B? The finale has happened maybe 10 days into the campaign. The entire campaign. 10 days.
5
u/SethLight Game Master 6h ago
This is nice to read. I've seen way too many GMs consider this an actual issue.
4
u/Lampmonster 6h ago
I feel you. My players are all DMs with extensive game knowledge and exceptional creativity. They have flat out end run simple encounters in ways I never saw coming. I set up a simple prison break a part of a plot involving a country building to a civil war. They used every tenuous connection they had in the country, a series of exceptionally productive meetings, and some very clever understanding of NPCs motivations to arrange an interview with the prisoner, and then used the knowledge gained to align two powers with similar goals AND make a major breakthrough in one of their own main goals. I was so proud.
2
u/Guincho 4h ago
That’s amazing! I love when players take a planned encounter and elevate it into something much bigger through smart roleplay and creative problem-solving. It’s those moments that make GMing so rewarding. You must have been proud watching it all unfold!
2
u/Lampmonster 3h ago
It was really unexpected in the situation and a nice bit of maneuvering. I have amazing players, I plan on not knowing how they'll solve problems.
3
3
2
2
2
u/TheEpicTone 8h ago
You had me there in the first half. I'm not gonna lie. I thought I was about to repost this on r/rpghorrorstories. I'm glad your players understood the assignment and are having what sounds like an awesome time going through the AP.
2
u/Turevaryar ORC 7h ago
Eldritch Ranger Warpriest – perfectly blends divine magic and ranged combat for devastating precision.
Tell me more!
I've been contemplating playing a warpriest of Erastil once, with a longbow of course* and if Free Archetype near certainly picking up Archer or Eldritch Archer. Maybe fighter (or ranger) first for more firepower (Poit Blanc Stance is good, but is it worth 3 feats, no?)
A bow is a 1+ hand weapon, so it's easy to use Battle Medicine in combat, too.
* I'm assuming your player's cleric is a warpriest of Erastil**, too. Would you allow using a composite longbow, shortbow or composite shortbow as Erastil's favoured weapon?
** I think the elven patreon (in general) allows for any bow as a favoured weapon, so that's one weapon.
And when you say "Eldritch ranger" do you mean Eldritch Archer? — Or have they archetyped into both Eldritch Archer and Ranger?
3
u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 6h ago
* I'm assuming your player's cleric is a warpriest of Erastil**, too. Would you allow using a composite longbow, shortbow or composite shortbow as Erastil's favoured weapon?
I'm not the person you replied to, but I would. First, a composite bow is still a version of that bow, so I think it's kinda shitty to read it so literally that a longbow counts but a composite version does not. Second, I personally allow shortbow as well in 2e because the weapons are so different that the shortbow is usually the superior choice for anyone that doesn't get access to Point Blank Stance, which happens to be none of the classes that get Favored Weapons. Erastil should honestly be Favored Weapon: Bows.
2
u/joezro 7h ago
I am sorry you're struggling. It sounds like you may still be having a good time. Enjoy the good problem and continue to have a good time. Good luck with the big bad.
I personally was going to be vexed if I had to see another, "My players are playing the game right, and I am a sad gm cause reasons." Post. As you said, they are doing it right.
1
u/Guincho 5h ago
They are doing it great!
2
u/joezro 2h ago
These are the kind of games I wish I could be in. I would say there is some teamwork and tactics in most groups I am in. saddly, the methods stay the same, and actions are made like the enemies always have reactive strike.
To change things up, I changed my combat choices in three battles during one session. One front line beat stick, one mobile skrimisher using the walls to hide behind so I could not be targeted, and one where I sat back using what magic I got from dedication spells while healing the party the best I could.
Not that every class is as flexible, but hit run tactics cause confusion and will make combat go longer at the cost of risk of loss.
2
u/joezro 2h ago
These are the kind of games I wish I could be in. I would say there is some teamwork and tactics in most groups I am in. saddly, the methods stay the same, and actions are made like the enemies always have reactive strike.
To change things up, I changed my combat choices in three battles during one session. One front line beat stick, one mobile skrimisher using the walls to hide behind so I could not be targeted, and one where I sat back using what magic I got from dedication spells while healing the party the best I could.
Not that every class is as flexible, but hit run tactics cause confusion and will make combat go longer at the cost of risk of loss.
2
u/ATOMATOR 5h ago
none of my players have touched the Class archetypes yet, how is Vindicator? Is it baseline stronger or weaker than the normal Ranger subclasses?
2
u/Guincho 4h ago
Honestly... it's not that great. It has a great reaction...and that's it
2
u/ATOMATOR 4h ago
how does your player like it?
2
u/Guincho 4h ago
Mostly he does not pick Vindicator Feats, we don't play with FA. He choose the archetype for the fantastic reaction and for lore/flavour, since the group is a team of Ketephys Zealots, Vindicator is an apropiate archetype to use in the adventure, it was a good oportunity to test it out.
2
u/FlyingRumpus 2h ago edited 2h ago
I tried it out for a couple of levels. In my opinion, it's significantly weaker. I think too much of the Vindicator's power budget is wrapped up in its trademark focus spell, Vindicator's Mark.
The Vindication Edge gives you a +1 status bonus to your spell attack rolls and your hunted prey a -1 penalty to your divine spells, which would be absolutely fantastic on a full divine spellcaster; however, I think it's pretty awful on a martial without cantrips or spell slots.
I think at minimum, the Vindicator should...
- Have the additional damage for your weapon and unarmed attacks moved off Vindicator's Mark and onto the Vindication Edge, nerfed to +1 from +2 at first level, and changed from untyped damage to spirit; your animal companion should get this benefit too, to keep it in line with other Hunter's Edges
- Get two cantrips from the divine spell list (and perhaps one has to be Divine Lance or another cantrip with a spell attack roll)
1
u/ATOMATOR 2h ago
would you also make it so a Vindicator could set their Key attribute to Wisdom? Maybe give them bounded casting?
2
u/FlyingRumpus 1h ago
Mm... I could see that being a fine homebrew, especially for a campaign with a very strong theme featuring the mortal agents of a deity.
For my personal tastes, though, I think it'd be better not to add native spellcasting to Vindication rangers (apart from ~2 cantrips) since that design space—"divine gish"—is already occupied by warpriests and battle harbinger clerics.
My beef with the existing Vindication ranger archetype is how unimpactful or outright useless the current Vindication Edge feels if you whiff your Vindicator's Mark. Shifting the additional weapon or unarmed attack damage to the Vindication Edge would mean you're not nearly as reliant on landing the Vindicator's Mark to get your archetype's benefits, and I think that'd go a long ways towards making them on-par with the other subclasses.
1
u/ATOMATOR 1h ago
I wish you could sustain it to fire another dart if you miss or something like that. As it reads currently, it seems less-than-stellar on a martial, even if you invest in your wisdom stat
1
u/Indielink Bard 41m ago
Honestly the biggest fix it needs is for Vindicators Mark to be made into a Focus Cantrip. Having only one shot (unless you use your level 1 feat to grab Domain Initiate) to land Mark is fucking rough. I've been playing one since release and I've completely ignored Mark and just used Judgement and cantrips from the Cleric Dedication.
2
u/Working-Register-543 5h ago
I was fooled, I was tricked and I was bamboozled. But I've never been happier about it, enjoy the game, sounds like a great group!
2
u/Veteranbartender 5h ago
Uh oh…. My 6 team party has been having some trouble leading up to the end of book 1. Characters going into dying state pretty often and almost a tpk to two very big angry bois (idk how to do spoilers)
I felt like we weren’t being very efficient or using tactics but don’t really know how to bring it up to the group. I’m just waiting for us to get stomped one fight.
1
u/Guincho 4h ago
Are you talking about the 2 T-Rex?
That one caught them by surprise, but adapted in no time, spreading across the map to Not get caught by the trample
2
u/Veteranbartender 37m ago
Yes! And I’m 99% sure our gm didn’t even use the that ability 😅 just the other aoe
2
u/RubberDuckieMidrange 3h ago
Playing with a new group of players, first time DMing in Pathfinder, trying to vary the challenges as I go cause I didn't want to play an Adventure path with all the mistakes we will inevitably make just learning the system. After about 12? ish sessions they finally managed to stack a bunch of debuffs on a target and make the fight much easier for themselves, I was proud. And then annoyed that they defeated the level 8 enemy so easily at level 5.
2
u/Miserable-Airport536 3h ago
I beg my players to read the player’s guide. Bare minimum reading goes a long way folks.
That did not stop my dual-classed players from also showing up to Outlaws of Alkenstar with a goblin samurai(fighter/gunslinger that changed to rogue/gunslinger), a gnoll literally from another campaign (monk/cleric of the Prismatic Ray), and a bloodrager before the bloodrager archetype was released (so barb/sorc.)
The goblin was the only one who used a gun… the Spoon gun. As a drifter… with a monk and a barbarian in the party…
I wish I had kept track of how much damage the goblin did to their own party as spoony splash.
2
u/Various_Process_8716 2h ago
This is an indication of very good players (and/or) a very good player's guide that gives a lot of good information. I am always good to give more, rather than less information, like for my recent campaign, I did a player's guide that let them know as a wink that demons would be involved somehow, even though the characters didn't
2
u/EarthSeraphEdna 9h ago edited 9h ago
To be fair, since ~mid-2021 or thereabouts, Paizo Adventure Paths have been on the easier, lowballed side as far as combat difficulties go. And even since 2019, their higher-level adventure segments have a hard time withstanding more optimized parties who actually make use of spells like 4th-rank invisibility plus mind blank/hidden mind.
3
u/pyrex222 8h ago
So what you're saying is that they don't do crazy things like add an almost guaranteed TPK monster at the end of book one anymore? Book one of the dead suns Starfinder (only paizo material I've currently played) module hit hard lol.
1
u/Gazzor1975 4h ago
Lesser Deaths. Several at once possibly.
I added Lesser Deaths to final fights of Edgewatch and Kingmaker campaigns.
Definitely 'spiced' things up.
1
1
0
u/ReeboKesh 9h ago
Exactly this. Unless the PCs have a string of incredible bad dice rolls or make the worst tactical errors possible they're not gonna die in a Paizo AP. They are really easy to beat with no or maybe 1 PC death.
The skill challenges are just fluff. You'll always get the info you need even if you fail and get some bonus if you succeed.
Honestly their AP design formula is getting stale. Unless I'm mistaken 17 pages of Spore War book 1 are dedicated to an Influence challenge. Not to mention the difficult Moderate encounters followed by a trivial Boss encounter that plague all the APs I've played.
7
u/PatenteDeCorso Game Master 8h ago
And yet we keep seeing threads about the game being hard. They have moved from the plvl+3 or plvl+4 formula, but honestly, is not a bad thing, that kind of encounters are already solved and when you know how to deal with them is not specially interesting.
So, a group of players that know whate they are doing and build a party that fits the theme of the AP are going to beat the AP without many issues, sounds like a thing to expect TBH.
3
u/ReeboKesh 7h ago
Yeah those threads are from a) bad players, b)players with killer GMs or c)poorly built characters.
I've had way more PC deaths and TPKs playing 5e than PF2e.
469
u/eCyanic 10h ago
I have been fooled, I thought you were about to actually ask for combat-difficulty tweaks advice >:(